Go-Around at higher than minimums

[Don Gato]

We practice lots of V1 cuts and go-arounds at minimums, but many times we need to go around at 1500 ft AGL, and it may happen that an engine fails other than at V1. Ragarding go-arounds I have seen diferent things when performed other than at minimums. Some of them tidier than others. What sequence (in terms of pitch, thrust, roll, config, MCP) would you follow say when going around at 1000 ft AGL climbing to pattern altitude or missed approach altitude? I am thinking of the NG. Would you use TOGA? It is interesting to me how we seem to lack procedures for things happening at times diferent from those we practice in the sim. Thanks for your thoughts and happy 2013!

[zerozero]

I don't fly the NG, but in general it's always good to stick to SOPs as much as possible.

In other words, if you must go missed at 1500', then yes, select TOGA and fly the machine the way it was designed to be flown.

I once watched a missed go a little wacky after LOC/GS capture and the airport changed the landing runway. The pilot was reluctant to select TOGA as he was instructed to maintain an altitude just 500' above.

Basically every situation is different and that's where experience, good judgement and systems knowledge really pay off.

Happy New Year.

[cosmo kramer]

What's the problem with TOGA if going around at 1000'? Most of the time the missed approach altitude is several thousand feet above. One click on TOGA and you will have minutes until reaching that altitude.

If going around at say 3000 feet (for whatever reason, e.g. ATC required):
Click, click. Click, click. Add thust to climb as instructed/missed approach altitude and clean up.

If auto flight is desirable or the above option sounds too stressful:
Disconnect everything and stabilize level flight (should be possible for almost everybody). Let the PM recycle FD, confirm missed approach altitude is set, select appropriate modes like LNAV and V/S +1000'. Re-engage auto pilot and auto throttle, then start clean up.

[waterbottle]

This is something that often isn't given much thought.

Have a think about examples such as KLAX, where a miss prior to DA will often require you to DESCEND. Due to airspace aircraft cant be higher than 2000'. When all we practice involves hitting TOGA, this can make you stop and think a bit!

[bubbers44]

Most pilots in my generation would not consider this a problem. Why is it a problem now because of automation?

You have a missed approach procedure if IFR and if VFR fly ATC instructions. Why push the toga button if you have to climb 500 ft? It will scare the hell out of all of your passengers.

[sevenstrokeroll]

it is amazing how much ''automation'' has affected flying.

after I had flown the DC9 for 11 years, I transferred to the 737 (POS). It had autothrottles...what a freaking waste!

so, turning final runway 31 at KLGA off the LIE visual apch, at 300 feet tower says go around, maintain 2,500 feet..WILCO, off we go with the autothrottles. TOWER THEN STARTS YELLING...SEAPLANE AT 1500 feet, maintain 1000' !!!!

I turned everything off and leveled off at 1000'.

TURN OFF THE FREAKING AUTOMATION. to go up, add power and pull nose up, to go down, reduce power and point nose down.

A go around at 1500' agl is not quite as critical as one at DH/DA...but you do have to think...where am I, what do I want to accomplish? What is the safest way to achieve this?

climbing 400'? Gentle...

CLIMBING away from danger, MAX EFFORT FULL POWER GET THE THING GOING.

And if you have to ask at PPRUNE...you better do some serious thinking for yourself about all sorts of things.

And for one of those light piston twins...think about what you will do if you lose an engine in the descent...you might not even know you lost one till you try to level off in the pattern!

Good luck...think...really, THINK@!!!!!!!

[bubbers44]

I had a check airman out of LAX so screwed up he was over 300knots at 2300 ft with a 2000 ft level off using automation on take off. I told him to go to idle power and descend and he was checking me out as a new FO on a 767. I was a 737 captain for years but we got bought by a major airline. Sometimes the major airlines don't have the best pilots.

[bubbers44]

My next check airman took my checkout leg to Dulles and was high and coupled the approach above glide slope in altitude hold and I said it won,t capture. When he saw the glide slope at the bottom he finally agreed with me when I said idle power, gear down, autothrottle and autopilot off and flaps on schedule. we landed because I just wanted a beer and didn't want to go around. My little Ca airline pilots knew how to fly, automation made these check airmen programmers. So sad.

[sevenstrokeroll]

great stories bubbers...

I am sure we would be better off with less electronics and more thinking and flying by real pilots.

there are those who say that we are safer with the ''computerized planes''...but think of A F 447...yikes.
today, newyears day, there was a twilight zone marathon...the one where the 707 went back in time was on...those pilots, circa 1960, were my kind of guys. navigator, flight engineer, radio operator, copilot and captain. Global 33 calling Idlewild.

[aterpster]

Waterbottle:

Have a think about examples such as KLAX, where a miss prior to DA will often require you to DESCEND. Due to airspace aircraft cant be higher than 2000'. When all we practice involves hitting TOGA, this can make you stop and think a bit!

Well, yes, but well prior to DA. More like at, or prior to the FAF, where it should be a "go-around" with plenty of time to work it out with ATC.

Because of all the things that go wrong at LAX as many well-above DA go-arounds are ATC initiated as they are flight crew initiated.

[aterpster]

sevenstrokeroll:

it is amazing how much ''automation'' has affected flying.

after I had flown the DC9 for 11 years, I transferred to the 737 (POS). It had autothrottles...what a freaking waste!

so, turning final runway 31 at KLGA off the LIE visual apch, at 300 feet tower says go around, maintain 2,500 feet..WILCO, off we go with the autothrottles. TOWER THEN STARTS YELLING...SEAPLANE AT 1500 feet, maintain 1000' !!!!

I turned everything off and leveled off at 1000'.

TURN OFF THE FREAKING AUTOMATION. to go up, add power and pull nose up, to go down, reduce power and point nose down.

A go around at 1500' agl is not quite as critical as one at DH/DA...but you do have to think...where am I, what do I want to accomplish? What is the safest way to achieve this?

climbing 400'? Gentle...

CLIMBING away from danger, MAX EFFORT FULL POWER GET THE THING GOING.

And if you have to ask at PPRuNe...you better do some serious thinking for yourself about all sorts of things.

And for one of those light piston twins...think about what you will do if you lose an engine in the descent...you might not even know you lost one till you try to level off in the pattern!

Good luck...think...really, THINK@!!!!!!!

Great post!!

[DBate]

I have to agree with the opinion of several posters above; were is the problem in flying a missed approach from a higher altitude than minimums? Just fly the airplane and if the automatics are not appropriate in the given situation or do not perform as desired just fly the maneuver manually.

The one reason I can think of to always set TOGA power or press the G/A button (or whatever it is called in the aircraft type you fly) would be, that on many types it triggers the correct FMA modes and sequences the flightplan. On some types below certain altitudes (MD11 e.g.) you would not be able to leave the approach mode without pushing the G/A button. So pressing the G/A button would give you FD indications for the missed approach and both vertical and lateral guidance. However if you are going around from an altitude close to the missed approach altitude the pitch bar of the FD will of course (initially) command a pitch leading to a very high V/S, which is not desirable in such a situation.

In such a case I'd just push the button and if the G/A altitude is close just take over manually and fly the missed approach (or at least the initial part) by hand. At least the roll bar of the FD would be helpful then.

No brainer me thinks ;).

Happy new year everyone,
DBate

[FlyingStone]

I don't know about the NG, but on classic I'd still go for TOGA below 2000ft RA (since it's inhibited above this height) just to go out of the approach mode, because it's the most simple way to do it. A/T would then command thrust for rate of climb between 1000ft and 2000 ft/min and if you're close to MCP altitude it would go into ALT ACQ very soon, so no particular discomfort for passengers. But I agree - pressing TOGA twice and following FD pointing into stratosphere to climb for 500ft until missed approach altitude is not the way to do it.

[Don Gato]

Many thanks for the valuable replies. Probably I was not clear enough. I did not say nor implied that there is a "problem" in performing a go-around higher than minimums. However, there are diferent ways of doing it, and it clearly shows given the answers above. I have seen it done in diferent manners and was just hoping to share ideas of technical content. I agree that automation can affect your flying if you never practice some hand flying. Properly used, though, it is a great thing. Including autothrottles, fms, etc. The same goes for CRM, SOPs, :ok:

[de facto]

On the NG,you have 3 ways to exit the Loc/gp .
Press Toga or deselect frequencies or A/P and FDs OFF then ON.

TOGA will give you guidance for 15 degr nose up,if you are close to your GA altitude,it is obviously not the mode to use.(some have suggested to press toga and then straight after disconect the AT..not my favourite..).

Deselecting frequencies allows you to use a more apropriate pitch mode especially for a descending missed approach.

A/P OFF and AT OFF when time or knowledge or position awareness are not sufficient to mess about with the automatics.

[bubbers44]

Pilots should be pilots. Don't let automation make you a stupid robot. It is that simple. Pushing buttons is fine if they work but if they don't work be a pilot. It isn't that hard. You should be ashamed if the only way you could do a missed approach is with the TOGA button.

[bubbers44]

I have done many missed approaches because of no ground reference and have never used TOGA because of passenger concern. ATC go arounds because of aircraft not clearing the runway have been very carefully done manualy to not alarm passengers. That is how a professional pilot handles his airplane. It isn't hard to do a go around without scaring the crap out of everybody.

[de facto]

Bubbers,
True but pilots should also know their automatics as its use under some circumstances maye reduce the workload when the crew need it the most.(bad weather,low vis,busy environment)..
Disconnecting all,all the time for little reason is all good and dandi but is not always the best way out.

Ps :no idea how to spell 'dandi':8
bubbers44

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 1,645
I have done many missed approaches because of no ground reference and have never used TOGA because of passenger concern.That is how a professional pilot handles his airplane. It isn't hard to do a go around without scaring the crap out of everybody.

So when you perform your soft go around not to worry those pax of yours,what thrust do you use to retract those flaps?
Flying in a different manner that the manufacturer recommends all the time for some dodgy reason not to scare your pax,and you call that a reason of professionalism?get out of here.

[Dan Winterland]

On FBW Airbus types, moving the TLs to TOGA is the way you activate the Go Around mode. If you don't want TOGA thrust, then you move the TLs back to the Climb detent after a momentary TOGA selection before the engines had have a chance to power up.

[captjns]

Automation for G/A?!? We don't need no stinker automation! Did you have automation when you all got your single or multi IFR tickets? How did you survive?! Even during single pilot operations at night with crappy conditions?

What happened to following the MAP on the chart, or ATC instructions? As a side bar, when conducting Sim training in the NG, many missed approaches are done without LNAV or VNAV for the development of better situational awareness. How would you fly the MAP with loss of RNP/ANP? Beware flight control computers are subject to loss of situational awareness as the bodies in the cockpit. Without TAWS, the FCC will gladly command the AP to fly your jet into a mountain during a path descent on an off route heading.

My opinion is that those straight out of the puppy mills right into magenta or green lined jets need to get away from the automation, and continue to build their flying experience, because perish the thought of no automation:eek:!

[Centaurus]

Pilots should be pilots. Don't let automation make you a stupid robot.

You are so right. But tell that to the tens of thousands of pilots who are so addicted to automation (or forced into it by company SOP) that some have crashed because they are so frightened of hand flying that they attempt recovering from an unusual attitude by pressing buttons instead of immediately disengaging the automatics and standard hand flying to get out of trouble.
Another example seen in the simulator is during the initial actions on a high speed rejected take off, where, instead of first rapidly closing the throttles, the pilot presses the auto-throttle disconnect switch (in the end of each thrust lever on the 737) then before closing the thrust levers. That loses one second or more before the action of closing the thrust levers. End result is 250 feet of extra runway required to pull up.

At those high speeds, the disengaging of the autothrottle does nothing as by then it is already in throttle hold. This habit stems from the standard Boeing procedure for closing down an engine in flight where it says as first item "Autothrottle (if engaged)....Disengage"

[de facto]

One common item seen in the simulator is where on a high sped rejected take off, the pilot first presses the auto-throttle disconnect switch (in the end of each thrust lever on the 737) then closes the thrust levers. That loses one second or more before the action of closing the thrust levers. End result is 250 feet of extra runway required to pull up

The disconnecting of A/T and closing thrust levers are to be done simutianously,obviously the finger disconnecting the AT is a quicker movement than of retarding your arm to close the thrust lever.
You may see this as an issue,i dont.

At those high speeds, the disengaging of the autothrottle does nothing as by then it is already in throttle hold

It is a procedure to follow as not to have the auto thrust quicking back in after the thrust lever has been closed,low or high speed,it is to be performed the same way.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Thanks aterpster.


its DANDY like CANDY.

Fine and Dandy, sweet as candy.

[aterpster]

de facto:

Flying in a different manner that the manufacturer recommends all the time for some dodgy reason not to scare your pax,and you call that a reason of professionalism?get out of here

All the time? What the manufacturer recommends?

The issue for the OP was a go-around well above DA/MDA. That certainly does not constitute "all the time" and may very well occur less frequently than a missed approach at, or near, DA/MDA.

A go-around just inside the FAF and perhaps above the terminal's minimum vectoring altitude might very well result in an ATC instruction to level off. It is simply quite different than being down "in the weeds" for a number of reasons.

The manufacturer's recommendation is likely predicated on the circumstances of being at minimums when initiating a missed approach procedure.

Professionalism requires both skills and judgment that sometimes must be discerning.

Maybe the GA button is mislabeled. Perhaps there should be a MA button and a GA button. That would keep it all the realm of a video game.:)

[FullWings]

To answer the OP, in my company it is SOP to execute a 'standard' GA below 1,000' (TOGA and minimum altitude loss). Above that we have discretion.

I normally brief some of the alternatives available but I think the main considerations, as pointed out by other posters, are:

Where am I? (Config, altitude, speed, lateral path) and
Where do I want to be? (As above)

Choose what you think to be the best method to get from A to B. On many occasions, it's not so much a GA as a "not landing", so you've got a little time to discuss/rehearse your actions before taking them.

Be aware of how the AP & AT, if used, will react to various commands, alt. capture, etc. and how you will avoid or mitigate undesirable effects.

You may be above or below AA, the flaps will be in one of several possible positions, the gear may be up or down and you may be above or below the GA altitude... A little thought goes a long way!

[Smilin_Ed]

Why push the toga button if you have to climb 500 ft? It will scare the hell out of all of your passengers.

A couple of years, as a passenger on Lufthansa, we were approaching Cairo at night. We were around 1,000 feet when all of a sudden, they hit TOGA and pulled up sharply. It did scare me and some others. It turned out that the plane ahead of us had not cleared the runway expeditiously and we were told to go around. It was obvious to me that there was no reason to go to TOGA, just policy. :mad:

[bubbers44]

SSR procedure would have made it a non event for the passengers with no safety sacrifice. SOP's are important for the new generation of pilots but why can't a little common sense enter into how you handle a situation?

Too many SOP's so the new guys can do it too take away from the experienced guys who have to downgrade their skills to follow SOP.

[sevenstrokeroll]

thank you claybird.

I had the great fortune to fly the DC9. I think it was better built than the 737 and with less automation. Why Boeing ever came up with CWS is just nuts ...we had a little knob to turn the plane, called< wait for it: the turn knob.

the douglas boys built the plane stronger so the roof would never come off...take a look at the roof of a DC9 and see the ''fingers"on the metal that spred the load out and would break before the main part of the roof so you could see a problem develop before the roof came off.

I think they are called lap joints but can't remember right now.

anyway, the DC9...you became part of it the flight controls and throttles were just extensions of your human hands and feet and because automation was minimal, you never became dependent on it.

Its like working in a tall buidling with an escalator to get you to the office. one day, when the power is out, you won't be able to climb stairs!

[Don Gato]

you became part of it the flight controls and throttles were just extensions of your human hands and feet and because automation was minimal, you never became dependent on it. I agree. An airline pilot should be able/required to be able to hand fly the airplane to a high standard. As he should be able to understand and make proper use of automation.

In my opinion, the automatic system of the NG to get out of the approach mode without using TOGA is not user friendly. As De Facto pointed out, it can be done by either changing the LOC frequency or by turning off –both- the FD and AP.

Sometimes this procedure will have pilots struggling with selecting/deselecting FD modes to be able to follow FD bars. In the meantime there is confusion. In this case, it would probably be better to just hand fly the aircraft (pitch and power) without FD bars in sight and then have them on when one is comfortable.

[bubbers44]

DG, I agree shutting all the automation down makes some situations much easier. I guess some people can't do that because of their experience and training. We got B737 300 automated aircraft at our airline and to do the SJC departure on automation made you look like a student pilot so always hand flew it.

Automation knew climb power and altitude capture, no smooth pilot planning type flying. I would be embarassed to use it as captain. SOP's probably require it for most airlines today. Just hang on people, we are going for a wild ride.

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

We got B737 300 automated aircraft at our airline and to do the SJC departure on automation made you look like a student pilot so always hand flew it.

That brings up all the various FMS vendors trying to turn ground-based procedures into RNAV procedures.

And, even with RNAV SIDs there are still too many problems because of various OEM and avionic vendor applications.

[de facto]

The issue for the OP was a go-around well above DA/MDA. That certainly does not constitute "all the time" and may very well occur less frequently than a missed approach at, or near, DA/MDA.

I was answering this quote:bubbers44 I have done many missed approaches because of no ground reference and have never used TOGA because of passenger concern.

I believe that some standardization is required in GA but obviously when necessary,a manual maneuver should be no sweat for a captain.
If one cant manage pitch and thrust,it is indeed worrying.

About the Candy Dandy, thanks ill remember that:ok:

I think we all agree that manula skills are paramount at least for the captain,the first officer will over the years hopefully get to practice and should not be upgraded if unable to revert to manual with a certain ease in normal conditions.

If the apparent lack of skills in some airlines is a concern,maybe those airlines in question should review their training and check their crew manual skills more thoroughly.

Concerning the GA above the minima,there are many ways to skin the cat as long as both pilots are in the loop.
Proper SOPs and adherence to those is paramount to reduce mistakes,crew coordination and manual skills are essential too.

[bubbers44]

Most of our 737 cat 1 approaches were hand flown because we didn't trust the auto systems. One MD80 approach the auto systems all failed at 300 ft with a 200 ft DH. I leveled the wings, reintercepted the approach and set approach power and broke out at minimums. It wasn't hard to salvage the approach if you could hand fly. I am an average pilot so all of my pilot friends could have done the same thing. I worry about what automation is doing to the new guys.

[galaxy flyer]

Bubbers44, aterpster

Reading this and other similar threads, it strikes me that an entire generation is here that NEVER just flew an airplane around, without reference to a book of SOPs. If there isn't a formula as to how to fly the plane--lost. Even in the world of USAF UPT, there were sorties where students just flew around, doing acro, touch and goes, go arounds from wherever the RSU said. It developed flying skils, flexibility and judgement. I wonder how many airline pilots could just fly VFR without a canned scenario.

[bubbers44]

GF, most of our friends could do just fine with no reference to SOP's. I agree that the future is not what we did. SOP's were made for mediocre pilots to not kill anybody. The good pilots already knew what to do. Flame away.

[sevenstrokeroll]

imagine everything craps out...your left with the airspeed indicator, whiskey compass and altimeter.

you find a break in the undercast...you have two hours of gas.

what do you do?

I know what I would do, and I'm saying you are somewhere over the 48 states

[bubbers44]

I did it once with a break in the clouds going to Aspen. We descended and followed the highway to the airport. We were flying a Lear Jet that day. Sometimes you did what you had to do. We couldn't do that flying airliners however.

[bubbers44]

SSR, As I have said before I practiced using only emergency standby instruments so I would trust them on the 757. They always worked fine so I trusted them. You have to use them occasionally to have confidence in them.

[A4]

Some interesting posts and very valid points on here. As an Airbus driver it has been enlightening reading some of the techniques required to achieve particular outcomes on the NG. I don't want to ignite (another) A v B debate but, to me, it does seem things are "easier" on the 'bus - provided you understand your aircraft and how it works!

This is one of the problems with automation. We use it, safely, day in day out for normal ops but when a fast ball arrives people suddenly become overwhelmed. One of two things then happen. They either continue to try to rescue the situation by pushing buttons which may/may not be successful or accurate. Alternatively, they disconnect everything and fly manually which immediately increases their (and the PNF's) workload and again is likely to be "not pretty" due to lack of practice.

There is nothing wrong with automation provided you know how to use it properly! Think ahead - "What if?" The actions should be second nature and if you're going around from 2000' there is significantly less urgency than a GA from 100' RA so DON'T PANIC!

Bottom line is know your machine and know the correct technique. Life will be a lot less stressful :ok:

[LeadSled]

-----workload and again is likely to be "not pretty" due to lack of practice.A4,
With respect, professional pilot at this level should never be out of practice.
At least one enlightened US airline suggests, and I agree, that going back to "full hands on manual mode" can decrease the workload in odd-ball situations ---- mode confusion is a prolific source of mistakes.
This is why I always liked the Boeing control wheel steering mode on early B757/767 --- I missed it when it was discontinued.

[bubbers44]

LS, I agree. A professional pilot should know automation but should be able to shut it all off and fly equally well. Some times that makes your work load less because you know where you want to go and pushing buttons sometimes doesn't do exactly what you want.

Another check airman was giving me a San Jose, Costa Rica check out as a new 757 captain and had the FMC so screwed up I just used raw data until he caught up. My flight directer was saying a descending left turn and I was doing a climbing right turn over the Volcano which was our clearance. I guess I never got out of the 727 mentality that nothing was automatic, just fly the f...g airplane. AF447 is an example of what automation dependency does to pilots.

[LeadSled]

All,
We should never forget that computers are are just dumb adding machines, garbage in=garbage out.