ILS APP in VMC

[number1pilot]

Hello,

Just got a question about an ILS APP which I hope someone can answer:

I am a PPL and will be doing a radar vectored app into Edinburgh in the PA-28 next week (subject to traffic).

During my training I done some ILS procedures with my instructor and I am wondering if I would be able to fly the ILS GS LOC into Edinburgh but not using the foggles and in vis which meets VMC conditions? Am I allowed to do this on a PPL licence as I do not have an IMC nor IR? I have heard some PPL's say they have done this however I'm not sure if this is allowed or now.

If it is allowed, would I request vectoring for an ILS approach to remain in VMC? (although doesn't this slightly contradict each other?)

Any advice appreciated.

[tmmorris]

No doubt someone with more encyclopaedic knowledge will appear but my understanding is yes but...

a. not IFR if it's in class D (can't remember if EDI is) - you must be VFR
b. if you are VFR you must carry an observer in the other seat (doesn't have to be a pilot - the infamous 'granny' rule i.e. it could be your granny. They have to shout if they see any aircraft conflicting!)

You can fly it IFR outside CAS (as in the UK you don't require an IR to fly IFR), or VFR in or out of CAS but with an observer.

Tim

[BillieBob]

as in the UK you don't require an IR to fly IFRActually, as of 17 Sep, you do.

[BackPacker]

N1P, I wonder why you would want to.

Flying the full ILS from 2000'/6nm down to the runway will take way more time than flying a visual circuit. Furthermore, since a lot of the airfields you will visit will have a relatively high proportion of VFR circuit traffic compared to IFR/ILS traffic, it will be easier for ATC to slot you in with the rest of the circuit traffic, compared to slotting you in on the ILS. And the last thing is that you need to remain VMC. So you have to fly around any clouds, which really is not an option on an ILS. So it's not exactly a practical approach method if you're VFR, unless there are no clouds whatsoever below 2500' and the traffic density at the field is such that you can be slotted into it via the ILS anyway. And in those circumstances, a "visual direct final" is probably easier anyway.

As far as training is concerned, yes, you can always request a practice ILS approach, or any other precision or non-precision approach for that matter. If you use the word "practice" ATC knows exactly what is intended. As you will still be VFR, it's up to you to remain VMC, and to keep a sharp lookout for other traffic as you will not be entitled to the same service as IFR traffic. So if you're going to be heads down during the approach, it's a very good idea to take a competent observer with you.

I fly from Rotterdam, a controlled field with a traffic intensity that I guess is about equal to Edinburgh. VFR traffic at our field usually flies one of the three visual approaches, but you can request essentially anything as long as you are willing to work with ATC and display an understanding of what will and will not be possible. When the runway in use is convenient, the weather is good, there is no IFR traffic approaching and I feel like it, I regularly request a "practice VOR/DME" or another IFR approach. I also regularly request alternate routings through the CTR, but I do make sure that my requests don't interfere with other activities in the CTR. So I make sure that I'm clear of the ILS areas that are in use, make sure I'm clear of the parachuting area, make sure that I'm not crossing a formal visual approach route at the designated altitude for that approach, and so forth.

So as far as practical flying is concerned, use a standard visual arrival or departure if they are anywhere near convenient. If not, request an alternate routing through the CTR but be prepared to work with ATC if for some reason your request is inconvenient or impossible. And if you want to practice a precision or non-precision approach make sure you use the word "practice" in your request, so ATC knows what the intention is.

BTW For formal IR training, with multiple approaches to the same runway, a lot of airfields require formal coordination, or even slots, arranged well before you get airborne. But in my experience a single practice request can usually be accommodated without formal approval in advance.

[Fuji Abound]

Actually, as of 17 Sep, you do.

Actually you dont. ;)

[Level Attitude]

A Quetsion:
If you request, are offered and accept an ILS Approach does that not imply IFR?
(Not now allowed unless IR or IR(R)/IMC)

Some General Observations:
Requesting an ILS (even a practice) suggests (certainly to ATC) either competence on the part of the pilot to fly
such an approach, or that there is someone else on board (Instrutor) to ensure the aircraft doesn't deviate too
much from published profile (and that correct ATC liaison is followed).

ILS is badly named. It is an Instrument Approach leading to a Visual landing.

ILS are usually based on a 3deg Glidepath so still two miles from Threshold the
aircraft will be at 600' - which is a lot lower than most PPLs will be used to.

Even if allowed I don't think someone who has "done some ILS procedures with my instructor" should request one on their own.

I would suggest requesting a Visual Straight In Approach from 5 miles. Don't have to worry about getting the ILS specific radio calls
correct and can track the Localiser, whilst keeping a good lookout. Do not try and follow the Glidepath, but rather keep
a sensible height (not below 1,000') until the approach (Rwy) looks correct.

[sevenstrokeroll]

You may not wear foggles without a real live properly certified safety pilot (ppl, current, sel)

YOU might request vectors to intercept and track the localizer but make it CLEAR YOU ARE NOT INSTRUMENT RATED.

EVEN requesting a PRACTICE approach is something you should not do as it implies that you know what you are doing.ATC must know exactly your capabilities or else they might treat you like a properly certified instrument rated and equipped pilot/plane.

you might request a vector to s straight in approach to the ils equipped runway and advise them you have the airport in sight and you plan to track the localizer/gs in VFR/vmc conditions

if you have never been instructed in flying an ILS, I think you shouldn't even try it.

and contrary to what has been writen, you can make a fully automatic, zero visibility landing using a properly certified ILS and plane. Some planes will even stop on the runway centerline. however, in your type of plane, the last 200 feet are pretty much visual
I did write an article about transitioning to visual from DH that might prove interesting...just google: TRANSITIONIN TO VISUAL and you might find it.

[BackPacker]

you can make a fully automatic, zero visibility landing using a properly certified ILS and plane.

True, but that kind of capability is well outside the reach of your average PPL.

[500 above]

YOU might request vectors to intercept and track the localizer but make it CLEAR YOU ARE NOT INSTRUMENT RATED.

You should co-ordinate with an EDI ATCO prior to departure and avoid speculation on here. There's at least two foreign based pilots giving you information on here - they mean well, but just contact the SATCO and don't listen to the rest! I have a friend in the tower there now. I'll see if I can persuade him onto this thread.

Before you go asking for radar vectors for an ILS (practice or not), you should find out what the navigation charges are. The last time I went in to Edinburghwas over 15 years ago in a Cessna 310. They charged me over 250 GBP back then for landing and one nights parking. A month later I received a bill for navigation charges in addition to the above! Self positioning onto the ILS (if permissible) may be cheaper.

[piperarcher]

My view is that if you want to practise an ILS or any other kind of approach anywhere, use a flight sim. There are a number of decent aircraft you can use or download if you want to make it more realistic. I have an IMCr and use FSX a lot to practise, or try approaches at different airports. Its much cheaper too ;-) You can download an AIP approach plate, and practise as much as you like without having to try and explain to ATC what you want to do and why.

If you want to do it for real (and why not - its exciting and challenging), then sign up for IMC lessons or do the flight with an instructor. That will give the flight a bit more legitimacy, and the instructor can guide you if the controller asks you to do something in flight you havent done before, or says something on the radio you havent heard before. He can also advise on the correct procedure for adjusting and maintaning height and course.

Otherwise as Level Attitude says, do a long straight in approach and keep a look out and maintain whatever altidude (above or on the glideslops) that you think is safe. There is something somewhere on PPrune about being not allowed to practise approaches without a safety pilot. I cant remember what conclusion was reached or if its different now, but unless you know for sure, your in potentially murky waters.

[ShyTorque]

For UK: From CAP393 The Air Navigation Order:

CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 14
Simulated instrument flight
23 (1) An aircraft shall not be flown in simulated instrument flight conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the aircraft is fitted with dual controls which are functioning properly;
(b) an additional pilot (in this rule called a 'safety pilot') is carried in a second control seat of the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the aircraft; and
(c) if the safety pilot's field of vision is not adequate, both forwards and to each side of the aircraft, a third person, who is a competent observer, occupies a position in the aircraft from which his field of vision makes good the deficiencies in that of the safety pilot, and from which he can readily communicate with the safety pilot.

Practice instrument approaches
24 (1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.
(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:
(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and (b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, I remember asking Hawarden if I could fly a three mile final, and almost got it right at 3.1 miles... Tower informed me that I was almost in Liverpool airspace, and suggested I turn sharper to intercept. The VOR / GS looked Ok as did the PAPIs all the way down, so not much to do other than just sit there looking at my passenger taking some more photos.

As long as it looks Ok out of the window, the crossed needles will stay in the middle. You can't always say the same for the other way around.

[dont overfil]

No 1 Yes you can.

Phone Edinburgh first as they will not be able to accept you at busy times. Edinburgh prefer you to file a VFR flight plan for zone entry. Your best chance to get permission is to get your flight school to make the booking.

Glasgow seem to be better able to offer you the service ad hoc. The last time I did it there was no charge.

D.O.

[what next]

Reading threads like this cheers me up a lot! Because it reminds me, that contrary to our reputation, we germans are really easy-going, fun loving people :O

All we have to do is ask "is there a chance for a simulated ILS approach for training purposes?" and if traffic permits, we will be vectored to a convenient position from where to fly the approach. No charges, no nothing, no question asked if you are insrtrument rated or anything, because you are flying VFR and will never actually get a clearance to fly the ILS. The controller will say something like "cleared for an 8 mile final runway XY, maintain VMC". He dosen't care what horizontal and vertical trajectory you follow as long as you have the required visual references.
The same with an SRE or PAR (at military or civil/military fields). Just ask politely, and if traffic permits, you will get it. That's fun for the controller as well, a welcome distraction on a boring afternoon. Ask for an SRE with no gyro! Having done a couple of those may save your life one day, who knows. With or without instrument rating makes no difference.

[B2N2]

Come, come,come over to the Dark Side where you can fly practice appraoches to your hearts content...yes...even ILS approaches.....for FREE......I feel the force getting stronger inside of you....come to Land of the Free
http://cdn1.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Emperor-Palpatine-Ian-McDiarmid.jpg

Edinburgh in the PA-28 next week (subject to traffic).

your request is inconvenient or impossible.

ILS is badly named. It is an Instrument Approach leading to a Visual landing.



My view is that if you want to practise an ILS or any other kind of approach anywhere, use a flight sim.

For UK: From CAP393 The Air Navigation Order:


I could fly a three mile final, and almost got it right at 3.1 miles

The last time I did it there was no charge

Reading all of the above just makes me shake my head and mumble to myself.
What has aviation in Europe come to........:yuk:
One measly practice ILS (yes, it is still called that way) in a Pa28 and its easier to get an audition with the pope.......:ugh:


I can take an airplane, without a flightplan (:eek:) hop over to the airport next door (85 total in FL :eek:) and fly practice ILS approaches till I run out of gas without paying anything but fuel tax.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The USA is different. They've got more land than they know what to do with.

In Europe we've had pretty well no spare land for at least the last thousand years - it's all full of people and stuff, no room for inessential airfields with spare time on their ILSs (the land is worth more for other uses), and the airspace is more or less full too.

[dont overfil]

In the good old days:rolleyes: Edinburgh was a training centre for NATS. Pilots were often asked if they could accept an SRA or radar vectors for controller training. There was three runways, sometimes all being used at once. Great fun!

Then some bright spark figured out more money could be made by parking cars on runways instead of letting aircraft use them. Introduce computerised flight strips and pay off assistants. Aah! Privatisation.

Edited to add; Edinburgh 114000 movements per annum. 1 runway 1 arr/dep frequency.
Orlando 303000 " " " 4 runways 5 arr/dep frequencies

Jeez up to a couple of years ago aircraft had to backtrack RWY 06/24 at Edinburgh!

D.O.

[peterh337]

The problem with these threads is that the postings are mostly negative.

I can take an airplane, without a flightplan (http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif) hop over to the airport next door (85 total in FL http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif) and fly practice ILS approaches till I run out of gas without paying anything but fuel tax. I can do the same. Not 85 airports, and not free, but for £20 I can fly an ILS at say Lydd almost anytime.

There there is Manston, Southampton, Bournemouth, Southend.

For practice approaches, I never land, because that just wastes time.

What one does have to do is phone the airport first, to book a "slot". Otherwise you can find somebody (usually a school) has booked it and you have to fly around to waste time. And one also needs to phone ahead with one's credit card details for the billing, if not landing there.

And once, at Manston, some "instructor" said to me it is illegal to fly an IAP in VMC unless one has a safety pilot. Ergo, ipso facto, it is illegal to fly an ILS, single pilot, in anything better than OVC002. I bet he posts here too ;)

What we do have a lot of in Europe is airports run by Mickey Mouse MBA types, who are not interested in aviation (they make an exception for a Gulfstream with Donald Trump in it, of course, salivating all over the tarmac while rolling out the red carpet) and run the airport as a job creation scheme. I don't know what can be done about that...

[Level Attitude]

And once, at Manston, some "instructor" said to me it is illegal to fly an IAP in VMC unless one has a safety pilot. Ergo, ipso facto, it is illegal to fly an ILS, single pilot, in anything better than OVC002. I bet he posts here too http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

The Instructor omitted (or you do not remember their saying) one additional word: "practise" - see Shy Torque's
post of 13/12/2012 13:33

Simulated IMC conditions: At some point, eg the DA, the pilot needs to revert to visual flying. This could be a little low
for fumbling around removing screens (or even removing foggles) and acquiring outside visual references.
Hence need for dual controls and a second pilot.

Practise IAP in VMC: Pilot should be head down scanning the instruments. But "See and Avoid" still applies, especially
outside CAS eg Southend, Cranfield, Farnborough?
Hence need to carry a Competent Observer.
There have been several near misses reported (CHIRP) with the pilot(s) flying the Instrument Approach complaining
that the other aircraft either should not have been there (open FIR 6nm away from airfield!?!) or should have given way
to them (even though rules of the air gave the other aircraft right of way). CAAs response was to confirm that it was
the Instrument Approach traffic which had the duty to see and give way.

In real IMC then (hopefully) any other aircraft will be known about - even with a procedural approach to a non-radar ATC airfield.

Only case which could be worrying (but not illegal) is a real (ie non-practise) IAP in VMC oustide of CAS - I bet Easyjet
are already lobbying for Southend's CTZ to be expanded!


What is a practise ILS? I would suggest it is someone who has been trained and is reasonably competent excersing their
skill in order to remain current.

I do not think it is for someone who wants to give it a go because it is new/different.

Original Poster says he has PPL only and gives the impression (excuse me if I am wrong) of being fairly newly qualified - he
asks, on another thread, how to use the Primer on the PA28 he intends to take to Edinburgh.

Too many things could go wrong if he asks for an ILS Approach.
Including communication misunderstanding with ATC - not good in Controlled Airspace.
Hence my suggestion that he asks only for what he knows: Long straight in visual approach and on that approach he can
use/not use the Localizer/GS/DME as much or as little as he wishes - as long as most of the time his eyes
are outside the window.

[peterh337]

What is a practise ILS? I would suggest it is someone who has been trained and is reasonably competent excersing their
skill in order to remain current.

An ILS is an ILS. Every time I fly I am practicing. Any distinction is meaningless.

[Level Attitude]

An ILS is an ILS. Every time I fly I am practicing. Any distinction is meaningless.

I take it you know how to fly?
I am not being rude - just pointing out that you are practising a pre-existing
skill.

Same with an ILS - if you know what you are doing you are practising.
If you don't know then you are learning.
On your own, in controlled airspace = not a good learning enviroment.

[soay]

I'm still a bit confused about this. Can I, using my IMC rating, request an ILS approach in VMC when flying alone?

[dont overfil]

I'm still a bit confused about this. Can I, using my IMC rating, request an ILS approach in VMC when flying alone?

I would think on an IFR clearance yes. VFR no.

That is my common sense answer. Someone will probably be along in a minute to say I'm wrong.

D.O.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I wouldn't attempt it in class G without someone looking out of the window for me, IFR clearance or no IFR clearance. So for me the answer is "no", regardless of whatever the rules might say.

[dont overfil]

Absolutely correct Gertrude. I was thinking class D. Separates IFR but not VFR.

D.O.

[gemma10]

I did an SRA and an ILS at Southend for practice 3 weeks ago. Booked 24 hours in advance-no problem. Paid over phone next day £46

[Local Variation]

As an IMCR holder, I regularly request and get accepted ILS arrivals at the airfield I fly from.

You need to maintain a level of proficiency and whilst my flight might be a VFR departure, upgrading the return leg to vectors and ILS benefits no end, regardless of the met conditions.

It doesn't take long to go rusty on this kind of stuff.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As an IMCR holder, I regularly request and get accepted ILS arrivals at the airfield I fly from.
Yes. I ask, they say yes if they're not too busy with pre-booked stuff or real IFR traffic, cost 0p. But only if I've got a passenger willing to do the looking out of the window bit.

[Croqueteer]

;)A controller from a major airport said a few weeks ago when asked about an ILS approach, just request a visual, we don't know if you are doing an ILS! I would suggest another pair of eyes on board would be essential.

[mm_flynn]

I would think on an IFR clearance yes. VFR no.

That is my common sense answer. Someone will probably be along in a minute to say I'm wrong.

D.O.
There seem to be a couple of misconceptions people have on this subject. The following all relates to approaches in Glass G or D airspace within the UK.


Regardless of IFR or VFR clearance, practice/simulated/'real' - you have no separation from VFR traffic - You MUST maintain a lookout. In class D the traffic should be called. In class G you have no separation from general IFR either - just participating IFR (ie. participating in your approach controller's service).
I believe the logic for having an observer when 'practicing' vs. flying for real. Is that in VMC flying an ILS for real under IFR you will be flying predominantly looking outside for orrientation and positioning and looking at the needles to cross check. If you are 'practicing' you will be trying to fly the needles without looking out - and hence need someone else looking for traffic
Being cleared for an ILS does not imply an IFR clearance (as demonstrated in the G-EYES accident)
Obviously if you are in cloud looking out will be futile and hopefully there will be no 'VFR' or non-participating IFR traffic intersecting your approach track (and for example Lydd's DME arc that could be a 25 mile long path you are cutting through the sky on the approach).


A 'real' ILS in VMC IMHO provides very little training value as you need to be looking out the window for traffic and you get all the visual references as well.

[2 sheds]

In class G you have no separation from general IFR either - just participating IFR (ie. participating in your approach controller's service).
Au contraire - if you are operating at a radar-equipped aerodrome, you could request a deconfliction service and be provided with "separation" (more accurately, deconfliction distance) from all other observed traffic, regardless of the flight rules under which you choose to operate.

2 s

[ShyTorque]

mm flynn, you got it and it's right there in the relevant excerpt from the ANO I posted above. You interpreted it correctly, unlike some who obviously can't or don't want to, if they ever actually bother to read the rules, that is ;) ).

If you fly under VFR you are required to be able to see and avoid; if your nose is aimed at the dials, you are deemed not able.

[BackPacker]

if you are operating at a radar-equipped aerodrome, you could request a deconfliction service

Isn't a "deconfliction" service an ATSOCAS service and thus - by definition - only applicable OUTSIDE controlled airspace?

Within controlled airspace (D and up for VFR) you get whatever service the operator is required to give you under ICAO rules. I don't know if asking for a "deconfliction" service in class D is going to achieve what you think.

[peterh337]

A 'real' ILS in VMC IMHO provides very little training value

Unless one is flying the ILS for the purpose of avionics systems testing, e.g. flying an autopilot coupled approach, which is a perfectly legitimate and very common requirement.

I fly about 50% of "practice" ILSs autopilot-coupled, because that stuff has to work.

[thing]

Of course you could do a practise ILS in real IMC in which case you wouldn't need a safety pilot. But then I suppose it wouldn't be a practise ILS; although if you had taken off in IFR conditions solely to practice instrument approaches then I suppose it would be construed as a 'practise real ILS'. Or a real ILS that was flown intentionally. But then any ILS flown in IMC conditions would be intentional I suppose. Mmmmmm....semantics.

For what it's worth if I do a practise instrument approach in vmc I always take a safety pilot. Would be a bit daft not to.

I would also disagree that a practise instrument approach in vmc has no training value. What woud be the point of flying an expensive a/c, getting a mate to sit alongside and then looking up out of the cockpit during the approach? I did a PAR the other day, at night to kill two birds with one stone. The vis was superb, I can state with hand on heart that once past 500' I didn't look away from the instruments until at minimums on the approach. Waste of money otherwise.

[mm_flynn]

I would also disagree that a practise instrument approach in vmc has no training value. I do believe I said 'real' not practice. Practice approaches (i.e. head down looking at the instruments and flying in response) of course provide value - but equally you have no possible way of avoiding traffic hence the need for the observer.


2Sheds is of course correct, however, I think you will find it very very challenging to fly an ILS into an airport while staying 5 miles and 1000 feet away from any flying object and remaining above the minimum vectoring altitude!

I would agree with Peter that there is systems management proficiency that you can build/maintain on 'real' approaches in VMC. As an example when Alderney had their LPV approach approved, I flew IFR there on a gin clear day and asked for the full procedure - which I allowed the coupled autopilot, roll steering and GPS to fly. I flew it single crew as I had plenty of time to look out the window and make sure the position the box of tricks was flying me to made sense and that there was no conflicting traffic. I suspect if I had let it, the autopilot would have landed me within about 10 feet of the theoretical aiming point - I was impressed - but I didn't get any practice at interpreting the instruments and responding to them or making the transition from instrument to visual flight.

[2 sheds]

2Sheds is of course correct, however, I think you will find it very very challenging to fly an ILS into an airport while staying 5 miles and 1000 feet away from any flying object and remaining above the minimum vectoring altitude!
But that is the controller's problem - to achieve these ideal minima as well as an effective ILS interception. See the last two CHIRPs on this topic.

2 s

[thing]

I do believe I said 'real' not practice. So you did, my fault for not reading what's there. :O

[peterh337]

But every flight you do results in you getting some practice. Well, so long as you sit in one of the front seats and are sitting upright and awake.

This whole debate is meaningless re legality of single pilot IAP flying.

There is another angle worth a mention: most pilots with an IR fly IFR all the time they fly outside the UK. IFR is far easier. And ATC expects an IFR flight to fly the IAP. To argue as some here do that somebody will hit you because you are in VMC and therefore this is illegal, and therefore you should never fly an IAP but, presumably, either cancel IFR and fly VFR to land, or ask for a "visual approach", is nuts.

[pilot in command]

I've done a radar vecotred app into Prestwick once which was certainly fun, but didn't use the ILS. If I were you I would do a radar vectored approach into EGPH without the ILS. I'm flying next week and you've given me a good idea of something I could try! :) Do pople think EGPH would charge for such a service? I assume they would for an ILS but just a radar vectored low app and go around, I'm not so sure if they would? Anyone care to clarify?

[Fuji Abound]

I think this thread lacks much common sense.

Most ILS are class D protected. Where they are protected in this way I wouldn't have any issue flying an ILS single pilot whatever the conditions. I also think if you want to fly an ILS in VMC for any reason you like that is fine. Maybe you want to test some kit, maybe heads down and hone those hand flying skills a little, maybe for "fun", just go and do it.

Where the ILS is not class D protected I agree there are wider issues. It is naive to relate these issues to whether or not it is VMC. It reality it is rarely VMC or IMC. One of my closest near misses was when flying an IAP in an out of IMC with radar cover - it so happened the controller "missed" another aircraft that flew straight though the IAP quite oblivious to what he was doing. It so happened I came out of IMC and saw him - if I hadn't I would never have known he was there, and although it would have been very close I suspect we would have just missed. So the reality is you are likely to be in and out of IMC. Unless your flying the ILS to near or to minima you will be conscious of periods of VMC and don't we all have a glance out. Chances are some one flying through the ILS either in an out of IMC or just below the base, and if they have your number on them, you will never see them until it is too late. Sadly it is as unrealistic to expect you to see another aircraft in these conditions as it is in the cruise. It is one of those ideas that seems good and steeped in the general concept of see and avoid but in reality there is little if any evidence it works.

TAS / TCAS / PCAS is your best bet as well as educating other pilots to be aware of IAP outside class D.

[peterh337]

I couldn't agree more.

[dont overfil]

PIC

Use your contacts. Speak to JW and get him to negotiate for you.

D.O.