View Full Version : Group Flying
Am thinking about getting involved in group flying in order to get some (relatively) cheap flying in.
Never done this before and was wondering about advantages and disadvantages of it! All replies greatfully received!
Does anyone know of a cheap group in/around Liverpool/Chester area?
thanks in advance! tas
poetpilot
15th Apr 2002, 08:22
Volumes can be written about this. As a starting point, maybe have a look in the pfa website, it may have info on this subject, also the www.flyer.co.uk forum on group ownership.
As a kwikky starter though:
Pros (over hiring a club a/c):
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Costs more manageable
aircraft more available
experience sharing with other group members (social aspect)
experience ownership without huge outlay
Get to "own" an a/c you otherwise couldnt - eg complex types
availability = you can get to other places!
Cons (compared to outright ownership)
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May have to dip into pockets for lump sums when big things go wrong (like engines, props)
May be "bad eggs" in the group - ie non- or late payers
Aircraft may be just as booked up as club aircraft
Need to get a consensus to do improvements or mods (eg new paint job, kit upgrades, etc).
Shared liability
I'm sure others can add to/disagree with/discuss these points...
FlyingForFun
15th Apr 2002, 09:06
tas,
Have just recently bought into a group myself. So recently, in fact, that I haven't even been checked out in the aircraft yet! So I don't have too many personal experiences yet, but I thoguht I'd share some thoughts with you - hope you find them helpful.
Group flying vs Owning
Advantages of Group Flying:
Much cheaper
Other people to help out with regards to maintenance decisions, insurance, paperwork, etc - hopefully people who know more than you and I!
Social activities - you get to know the other people in your group, fly with them from time to time, and have a beer after you finish flying
Advantages of Owning
The plane is always available when you want it
Things like maintenance decisions, etc, are always done "your" way
More of a sense of ownership
Group flying vs Renting
Advantages of Group Flying:
Much cheaper
Better availability
More choice of aircraft
Easier to take aircraft away for extended periods
More of a sense of ownership
Advantages of Renting
No need to worry about maintenance, etc.
Good chance of finding an alternative aircraft if there's a technical problem with your aircraft
Other thoughts: obviously inspect and take the aircraft for a test flight before buying, and if you're interested, get an engineer to check the aircraft out before you hand over any cash. Make sure you meet all the other members of the group, check that they have similar views to you on important matters (e.g. if you like repairs to always be done properly, as quickly as possible, whereas they're quite happy to defer non-essential items or do cheaper repairs, you won't enjoy flying the aircraftf). If there are lots of people in the group, find out what the availability is like - if everyone wants to fly every Sunday, there might be a problem, whereas if you're a weekend flyer but the group contains lots of weekday flyers, you'll get on much better. Also, don't rush into a purchase - wait until you find an aircraft you really want to be involved in, rather than going for the first one you find which is just "Ok".
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are loads more things. Good luck!
FFF
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Who has control?
15th Apr 2002, 10:53
I'm interested in getting into group flying as well, but the group I'm looking at is run as a company. Anyone got any thoughts on the pros & cons of that?
poetpilot
15th Apr 2002, 12:15
I've never been in a company syndicate for an aircraft, but I think many go this way becuse they believe they have greater protection from third party liability. owever, as company directors, they may just face liability in a different way.......
Another hint on groups before buying......
Try to establish whether the group plans for big expenditure in line with when its expected, or whether it carries on happily and apparently cheaply, then when expenditure is needed it means everyone has to dip into their pockets....
easy example - engines. If an engine is coming up for major overhaul or replacement, is the group kitty wealthy enough to pay for it?
Same can be said for wobbly props, retractable gear, paint jobs, nav refits, major CofA work, etc.
If been in groups with different ways of pproaching this. If you dont mind having to suddenly stump up £1k to contribute to a new donkey, then fine.... just make sure you know how they operate at the outset.
By the way, if you plan on owning outright, adopt the same mentality - set up a spreadsheet based on worst case scenarios and work out whether you REALLY can afford that dream machine.
People always have a reason for selling, and its not always poverty or illness...
CirrusMe
15th Apr 2002, 22:58
tas
Does anyone know of a cheap group in/around Liverpool/Chester area?
Define "cheap"
CirrusMe
Cheap would a couple of thousand to buy in, £50 p.m. and £50 p.h. wet (though there could be some play in these figures).
tas
Tas,
There is a share for sale in a TB10 based at LPL. A bit more expensive than you were looking for £4000 £98 p.m. & £59 p.h.
Let me know if you want full details.
T.
DOC.400
16th Apr 2002, 17:34
Tha ain't no such thing as 'cheap' in aviation.
£50 hour -will just about cover fuel costs on a 180hp engine. What about oil? Engine fund? 50 hour checks? Other hourly costs? Be very, very, careful.
Is the monthly fee sufficient to cover hangerage/parking; insurance; annual; star annual and other calender maintenance items. If soemthing does go wrong, is there sufficient in the kitty to cover repairs.
Cleaning rota -is there one? What do the other members expect? Flying rota or bids?
If u r in a good, well run group (I am), these should not present a problem.
DOC
PS Share for sale........see www.gbrnu.com
DOC.400
Tried to have a look at the link you added, but it does not appear to work.
tas
Sensible
16th Apr 2002, 20:18
Try http://www.gbrnu.co.uk
CirrusMe
17th Apr 2002, 19:42
Congrats to whoever did the "slide show" on the site's home page!
Great images :) :cool:
DOC.400
18th Apr 2002, 14:24
TAS -oops, sorry!
Sensible -thanx!!
Cirrus - I will!
DOC
A and C
20th Apr 2002, 20:19
DR400 has hit the nail no the head proper maintenence is expencive but as expencive as not getting proper maintenance !
long final
21st Apr 2002, 07:16
Tas,
How many hours a year do you expect to be flying?
LF
Who has control?
22nd Apr 2002, 13:47
The Group I'm looking at has a high cost per share, but because it is a new aeroplane, there should not be any nasty surprises lurking in it AND everything works!
So the extra up-front cost is balanced by the knowledge that nothing is scheduled to need replacing for some considerable time.
Its also £50 pcm and £45 per hour.
Long Final
Was aiming for at least 100 hrs
tas
You may find a PFA group will suit your budget more. By doing your own maintenance you can save a lot of money, and ensure it is done right.
Rod1
How would I go about find a PFA group?
tas
long final
23rd Apr 2002, 16:02
Loads of advise here Tas, so I will keep my twopenneth short.
At 100 hrs a year a group ownership of some sort, in my humble, would save you, ballpark, £50hr over hiring.
Key elemnts are as mentioned - check out a prospective group well, especially the finances. We work on £60 and hr and £64pm for a pa28 161 with ten in the group. A good reserve and money in an engine fund from every hr at the moment. This is a fluid amount and assessed 3 monthly.
Overall though, if you get a good group, you will be able to expand your flying no end. In the first year I have near enough paid for my share in the savings I have made.
Good luck Tas
LF
Try www.pfa.org.uk to start with. If you can get along to the PFA rally (21/22/23/ June) it is the biggest flyin in Europe, and there will be lots of people you can talk to about group flying etc.