Group Flying
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: North West
Group Flying
Am thinking about getting involved in group flying in order to get some (relatively) cheap flying in.
Never done this before and was wondering about advantages and disadvantages of it! All replies greatfully received!
Does anyone know of a cheap group in/around Liverpool/Chester area?
thanks in advance! tas
Never done this before and was wondering about advantages and disadvantages of it! All replies greatfully received!
Does anyone know of a cheap group in/around Liverpool/Chester area?
thanks in advance! tas
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 492
Likes: 1
From: Manchester, UK
Volumes can be written about this. As a starting point, maybe have a look in the pfa website, it may have info on this subject, also the www.flyer.co.uk forum on group ownership.
As a kwikky starter though:
Pros (over hiring a club a/c):
-------------------------------------
Costs more manageable
aircraft more available
experience sharing with other group members (social aspect)
experience ownership without huge outlay
Get to "own" an a/c you otherwise couldnt - eg complex types
availability = you can get to other places!
Cons (compared to outright ownership)
--------------------------------------------------
May have to dip into pockets for lump sums when big things go wrong (like engines, props)
May be "bad eggs" in the group - ie non- or late payers
Aircraft may be just as booked up as club aircraft
Need to get a consensus to do improvements or mods (eg new paint job, kit upgrades, etc).
Shared liability
I'm sure others can add to/disagree with/discuss these points...
As a kwikky starter though:
Pros (over hiring a club a/c):
-------------------------------------
Costs more manageable
aircraft more available
experience sharing with other group members (social aspect)
experience ownership without huge outlay
Get to "own" an a/c you otherwise couldnt - eg complex types
availability = you can get to other places!
Cons (compared to outright ownership)
--------------------------------------------------
May have to dip into pockets for lump sums when big things go wrong (like engines, props)
May be "bad eggs" in the group - ie non- or late payers
Aircraft may be just as booked up as club aircraft
Need to get a consensus to do improvements or mods (eg new paint job, kit upgrades, etc).
Shared liability
I'm sure others can add to/disagree with/discuss these points...
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
tas,
Have just recently bought into a group myself. So recently, in fact, that I haven't even been checked out in the aircraft yet! So I don't have too many personal experiences yet, but I thoguht I'd share some thoughts with you - hope you find them helpful.
Group flying vs Owning
Advantages of Group Flying:
Advantages of Owning
Group flying vs Renting
Advantages of Group Flying:
Advantages of Renting
Other thoughts: obviously inspect and take the aircraft for a test flight before buying, and if you're interested, get an engineer to check the aircraft out before you hand over any cash. Make sure you meet all the other members of the group, check that they have similar views to you on important matters (e.g. if you like repairs to always be done properly, as quickly as possible, whereas they're quite happy to defer non-essential items or do cheaper repairs, you won't enjoy flying the aircraftf). If there are lots of people in the group, find out what the availability is like - if everyone wants to fly every Sunday, there might be a problem, whereas if you're a weekend flyer but the group contains lots of weekday flyers, you'll get on much better. Also, don't rush into a purchase - wait until you find an aircraft you really want to be involved in, rather than going for the first one you find which is just "Ok".
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are loads more things. Good luck!
FFF
-------------
Have just recently bought into a group myself. So recently, in fact, that I haven't even been checked out in the aircraft yet! So I don't have too many personal experiences yet, but I thoguht I'd share some thoughts with you - hope you find them helpful.
Group flying vs Owning
Advantages of Group Flying:
- Much cheaper
- Other people to help out with regards to maintenance decisions, insurance, paperwork, etc - hopefully people who know more than you and I!
- Social activities - you get to know the other people in your group, fly with them from time to time, and have a beer after you finish flying
Advantages of Owning
- The plane is always available when you want it
- Things like maintenance decisions, etc, are always done "your" way
- More of a sense of ownership
Group flying vs Renting
Advantages of Group Flying:
- Much cheaper
- Better availability
- More choice of aircraft
- Easier to take aircraft away for extended periods
- More of a sense of ownership
Advantages of Renting
- No need to worry about maintenance, etc.
- Good chance of finding an alternative aircraft if there's a technical problem with your aircraft
Other thoughts: obviously inspect and take the aircraft for a test flight before buying, and if you're interested, get an engineer to check the aircraft out before you hand over any cash. Make sure you meet all the other members of the group, check that they have similar views to you on important matters (e.g. if you like repairs to always be done properly, as quickly as possible, whereas they're quite happy to defer non-essential items or do cheaper repairs, you won't enjoy flying the aircraftf). If there are lots of people in the group, find out what the availability is like - if everyone wants to fly every Sunday, there might be a problem, whereas if you're a weekend flyer but the group contains lots of weekday flyers, you'll get on much better. Also, don't rush into a purchase - wait until you find an aircraft you really want to be involved in, rather than going for the first one you find which is just "Ok".
Can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are loads more things. Good luck!
FFF
-------------
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 492
Likes: 1
From: Manchester, UK
I've never been in a company syndicate for an aircraft, but I think many go this way becuse they believe they have greater protection from third party liability. owever, as company directors, they may just face liability in a different way.......
Another hint on groups before buying......
Try to establish whether the group plans for big expenditure in line with when its expected, or whether it carries on happily and apparently cheaply, then when expenditure is needed it means everyone has to dip into their pockets....
easy example - engines. If an engine is coming up for major overhaul or replacement, is the group kitty wealthy enough to pay for it?
Same can be said for wobbly props, retractable gear, paint jobs, nav refits, major CofA work, etc.
If been in groups with different ways of pproaching this. If you dont mind having to suddenly stump up £1k to contribute to a new donkey, then fine.... just make sure you know how they operate at the outset.
By the way, if you plan on owning outright, adopt the same mentality - set up a spreadsheet based on worst case scenarios and work out whether you REALLY can afford that dream machine.
People always have a reason for selling, and its not always poverty or illness...
Another hint on groups before buying......
Try to establish whether the group plans for big expenditure in line with when its expected, or whether it carries on happily and apparently cheaply, then when expenditure is needed it means everyone has to dip into their pockets....
easy example - engines. If an engine is coming up for major overhaul or replacement, is the group kitty wealthy enough to pay for it?
Same can be said for wobbly props, retractable gear, paint jobs, nav refits, major CofA work, etc.
If been in groups with different ways of pproaching this. If you dont mind having to suddenly stump up £1k to contribute to a new donkey, then fine.... just make sure you know how they operate at the outset.
By the way, if you plan on owning outright, adopt the same mentality - set up a spreadsheet based on worst case scenarios and work out whether you REALLY can afford that dream machine.
People always have a reason for selling, and its not always poverty or illness...
"Trust Me"
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: Egham, UK
Tha ain't no such thing as 'cheap' in aviation.
£50 hour -will just about cover fuel costs on a 180hp engine. What about oil? Engine fund? 50 hour checks? Other hourly costs? Be very, very, careful.
Is the monthly fee sufficient to cover hangerage/parking; insurance; annual; star annual and other calender maintenance items. If soemthing does go wrong, is there sufficient in the kitty to cover repairs.
Cleaning rota -is there one? What do the other members expect? Flying rota or bids?
If u r in a good, well run group (I am), these should not present a problem.
DOC
PS Share for sale........see www.gbrnu.com
£50 hour -will just about cover fuel costs on a 180hp engine. What about oil? Engine fund? 50 hour checks? Other hourly costs? Be very, very, careful.
Is the monthly fee sufficient to cover hangerage/parking; insurance; annual; star annual and other calender maintenance items. If soemthing does go wrong, is there sufficient in the kitty to cover repairs.
Cleaning rota -is there one? What do the other members expect? Flying rota or bids?
If u r in a good, well run group (I am), these should not present a problem.
DOC
PS Share for sale........see www.gbrnu.com
Flies for fun
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
G-BRNU
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: North Weald, UK
The Group I'm looking at has a high cost per share, but because it is a new aeroplane, there should not be any nasty surprises lurking in it AND everything works!
So the extra up-front cost is balanced by the knowledge that nothing is scheduled to need replacing for some considerable time.
Its also £50 pcm and £45 per hour.
So the extra up-front cost is balanced by the knowledge that nothing is scheduled to need replacing for some considerable time.
Its also £50 pcm and £45 per hour.