SOUTHEND - 4

[Expressflight]

Those certainly are excellent figures for May with total pax increasing by 34% compared to May last year.

I believe that the NQY started on 17th May and if so that would give a load factor above 80% which is surprisingly good. Also AMS is demonstrating SEN to be a very acceptable LON departure/arrival point with the third daily rotation proving a great success.

As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development.

[asdf1234]

"Why are you comparing Stobart Ait (Aer Arann) to SEN terminal debit. Stobart air wont be paying it down, the airport chargers will pay it down. Personally 71,000 is good as they lost 1 or 1.5 million the year before."


Stobart Air is the name of the operating division at Stobart Group that runs Southend Airport.


"As for the share price UK investors are notoriously short-termist and it's no surprise that an airport growing a quickly as is SEN is currently doing no more than to break even at this stage in its development."


It's not breaking even, it's losing about £15m a year by my calculations, for the 2nd year running! A positive EBITDA is not a breakeven position. Airports such as Prestwick and Cardiff can make decent EBITDA profits with 1m pax - why not Southend?


P.S. Apologies if the quotes are pasted in incorrectly...

[Red Four]

Ironic that the Edinburgh is up 44% in May. Someone should re-start that route pronto!

[tophat27dt]

Yes..somebody should look at replacing the 120+ loads for Belfast Edinburgh and Krakow, and operate them on a 70 seater. Is it that easy? I am no expert.

[j636]

Stobart Air is the name of the operating division at Stobart Group that runs Southend Airport.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[SEN Observer]

I seem to remember a couple of years ago when Easy started up at SEN they did voice concerns about flying into/out of uncontrolled air space. I wonder whether other airlines may be holding back awaiting the outcome of the application and have similar concerns. I know the airport is bound to say that it is in discussions with moire airlines re future services but wonder, if that is true, whether we may see more happening once controlled airspace is in place. Anyone any idea about how this is going and when, hopefully, it will be granted?

[asdf1234]

The Airport had a timetable to submit their proposals to the relevant authorities by the end of May 2014. I don't know if they managed this or not. The trouble they encountered was with the GA community which made a coherent argument for keeping the airspace as is. They pointed out that there is no new air traffic that warrants CAS over Southend, it is simply existing business diverted from Stansted because of the financial incentives offered to Easyjet by the owners of Southend Airport. Once the incentives disappear they argued that so will the traffic. The GA community referenced this argument to an article on the Telegraph to support their views that Easyjet were only at Southend because of the incentives and that Easyjet had not created any new routes as such.


The final decision is expected January 2015 if all parties adhere to the timetable.

[EssexMan61]

I say asdf - you certainly do seem to have a total downer on SEN. Any particular reason for such negativity, please?

[tophat27dt]

he is probably LTNman under a second name!!

[FRatSTN]

Who said they have a "downer" on SEN? asdf1234 is posting a point of fact, that happens to be correct.

EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN and what's to stop that changing in future?

Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.

[Phileas Fogg]

Who said they have a "downer" on SEN? asdf1234 is posting a point of fact, that happens to be correct.

EZY obviously got a better deal at SEN and traffic moved from STN to SEN. Whether people like that or not, that's the truth, it's just relocating, no "new" traffic at all. Full stop.

So just out of curiosity ... Why did both the mad Irishman's outfit and Easyjet move from a hill in Bedfordshire to STN?

[Planespeaking]

It would seem that SEN's recent rapid growth has rather raised the temperature of some of our more baleful contributors, causing some nasty cases of prickly heat.

Oh dear what a shame, never mind.

Good for you SEN!

[EssexMan61]

FratSTN -


What is your take on the provisional statistics for last month showing that Southend came oh so close to overhauling Stansted on the Amsterdam route? Interesting, eh?


And I think if one peruses asdf's previous posts via the "Find previous posts" option - one can see a certain pattern emerging. Or do you disagree?

[Expressflight]

FRatSTN

I really cannot see how you can claim that "there is no "new" traffic at all at SEN" and it has all simply transferred from STN. The figures simply don't support such a claim.

Take AMS for example where the May 2014 total for SEN and STN combined is 44,384 pax. Then look at May 2011 for STN, when there was no SEN competition, and you find the total was 25,392. Are you seriously suggesting that the STN-AMS route would have grown to anywhere near today's totals for the two airports? It looks to me that only about 2,000 pax could have been 'transferred' from STN to SEN from those figures.

I also wasn't aware that in 2012 STN had easyJet routes to JER, SXF, VCE and KRK for example, so how can that traffic have been 'transferred'.

I'm sure it is annoying for you to see SEN prospering to the extent that it currently is but ignoring the facts isn't going to change things.

[Phileas Fogg]

It is without doubt that Easyjet bought up "GO" and the mad Irishman bought up "Buzz" to get in on the STN/Essex act and when SEN developed both would have wanted in on that act also ... except that only one had the appropriate size of equipment!

[ericlday]

''except that only one had the appropriate size of equipment! '' and the balls to do it !!!!

[Tagron]

Without fail every new application for CAS in the UK lower levels meets with the opposition of the g.a.organisations. There is nothing new in this. It is the CAA's remit as part of the airspace change procedure to ascertain that the needs of affected users are considered and accommodated as far as possible before new CAS is implemented. The g.a organisations cases are often of high quality and cogently argued (vide Farnborough) but historically only gain concessions, not block the whole process, once CAA is convinced of the need for new CAS.

An argument based on speculative tittle tattle about easyJet's financial arrangements and an article in the Daily Telegraph represents a lower level of quality than one has come to expect from the g.a.organisations. I cannot see it impressing CAA. If anything it could detract from the credibility of their valid points. But the reality is I am sure they do have many valid points to offer and that their submission was far more competent than implied by these posts.

[FRatSTN]

Thank You to those who have taken the time to raise further queries on the point's I have made. I will deal with each one in turn...


Phileas Fogg:


Why did both the mad Irishman's outfit and Easyjet move from a hill in Bedfordshire to STN?I'm not entirely sure what you mean? I assume by "mad Irishman's outfit" you mean FR and "a hill in Bedfordshire" you mean LTN. FR first moved to STN when it opened in 1991 and have had their main base there ever since whilst still maintaining a smaller base at LTN.


EZY started in LTN and is still one of their biggest bases so can't understand why you say they have "moved" from there to STN. STN came about with the acquisition of GO and have operated from both LTN and STN ever since, albeit still maintaining LTN as their bigger base of the two.


EssexMan61:
What is your take on the provisional statistics for last month showing that Southend came oh so close to overhauling Stansted on the Amsterdam route?I doesn't surprise me in the slightest as the capacity on each route is now very similar at about 2 or 3 flights a day. If SEN was significantly lower than STN's stats then it would mean their average LF on the SEN - AMS route was much lower than from STN which would be concerning to say the least.


You seem to have this impression that I am completely against EZY serving SEN and want it to fail. That's incorrect. I believe SEN has a smaller catchment area than STN so is attracting more frequent custom from the same people when compared to STN as has been discussed countless times before.


As much as it may surprise you, I actually have a desire to see EZY be able to support a growing network at both SEN and STN, as well as their other LON airports which as of yet they haven't done.

Expressflight:

When we say no "new" traffic we mean on a statistical basis and taking into account the total quantity of traffic, regardless of which routes are flown. You cannot pick a certain route to try and make a point that isn't true. Indeed AMS has seen substantial increases since it has gone from up to 4 daily flights from STN I believe in 2011, up to 6 flights a day (3 each from STN and SEN) currently. Other routes in that context have seen reductions, including ALC, BCN and FAO as examples.


And indeed EZY never operated JER, SXF, VCE and KRK from STN but that's irrelevant in the context we are speaking. You are getting confused between the meaning of "routes" and "traffic" in which the latter is what we're referring to. This should hopefully make it clearer: The total amount of "traffic" across all flights and routes added to SEN is still less than the number lost from STN since 2011/12, therefore SEN has bought no "traffic" growth, just a relocating of EZY's assets.

[Expressflight]

FRatSTN

"This should hopefully make it clearer".

Er.... No.

If STN-AMS really was 4 x daily in May 2011 then only 25,392 pax that month seems to demonstrate that STN was not the airport of choice for many travellers so perhaps SEN was a breath of fresh air for many when it came on stream in 2012.

[asdf1234]

I think I've pointed out before that I want to see SEN prosper but for it to do so needs an approach by the owners that caters for all users of the airport. I want this as that it is the only way for an airport such as SEN to prosper long term.

And I do admit to being fed up with people who think an airport is successful because pax throughput increases. I could deliver 2m pax at SEN almost overnight by waiving all landing/handling fees and providing free parking and teas for the pax. Huge pax growth but no income - is that success? Quote clearly it isn't and my concern is that the 1m pax at SEN today deliver just 7p profit each to the owners. That isn't success.

Happy to applaud meaningful success but I won't jump up and down with delight because Stobart invited Easyjet to the airport on a freebie.

Still a SEN supporter who wants to see the airport prosper longterm.

[FRatSTN]

If STN-AMS really was 4 x daily in May 2011 then only 25,392 pax that month seems to demonstrate that STN was not the airport of choice for many travellers so perhaps SEN was a breath of fresh air for many when it came on stream in 2012


Yeah, just a few things you might want to consider first.


Again, looking at only one route (and one which surprisingly is one of only a few which has actually increased in capacity as a whole since 2011) doesn't give you the entire picture. But since you seem so obsessed with making a point on the AMS route alone I will go through it with you anyway...


STN-AMS was a maximum of 4 a day in 2011, not 4 flights every day so is again one case where they haven't taken so much capacity out of STN compared to other routes since they still fly mostly 3 daily flights. (Which to me shows it's one of the better performing routes).


And also, 2011 was a full 3 years ago where demand was much weaker during one of the UK's worst economic recessions in any of our life times! To compare them so literally against today's figures is unrealistic. Customer demand and certainly EZY's LF's have increased since 2011.


Out of interest, do you even know the split between STN and SEN for that 44,384 for the AMS route in May 2014, as you have only posted that combined figure?

[Expressflight]

FRatSTN

I'm calling time on this circular conversation, but since you ask the figures for May 2014 are:

STN-AMS 23,300
SEN-AMS 21,084

[NickBarnes]

Stansted was 23,300 and Southend was 21,084, so basically Southend close to overtaking Stansted, think that answers who is right in this debate :ugh:

Edit: Beat me to it express flight

[FRatSTN]

Indeed. Stansted despite losing pretty much one flight a day is only 2,000 pax worse off in a whole month compared to 3 years ago. Must be quite a climb in LF. So yes I think that does answer who is right in this debate.

[Pain in the R's]

Facts and figures can be produced and manipulated to support the views someone is trying to make whether positive or negative.

Looking at a full set of figures for April Southend has a gain of 48% over April 2013 making it by far London’s fastest growing airport but if you look at it another way it was the worst performing airport in terms of growth.

Passenger growth by numbers:
Gatwick 422,624
Heathrow 386,951
Stansted 166,280
Luton 84,739
Southend 32,623

[whitelighter]

The bigger you get, the smaller your growth.

Easy to 1000% growth if last year you had 1 flight and this year you have 10

Perhaps to turn the 10 into 100 is also easy, but the 100 into 1000?

% growth is important, but you have to consider the underlying figures as well

[Phileas Fogg]

FR first moved to STN when it opened in 1991

FRatSTN,

What are you talking about? ... STN opened in circa 1949 and in 1966 became a BAA airport, I myself was working there in a based airline Operation dept. during the 1980's so how on earth did you decide that STN only opened when Ryanair moved in during the 1990's?

[davidjohnson6]

Phileas - perhaps FRatSTN is using "it" to refer to the main terminal at STN which opened sometime around 1991. I know a runway has been at STN since WW2, but to many a passenger and possibly also many (although by no means all) people working at an airport or for an airline, the terminal(s) of an airport is the main way a person experiences the airport and thus people often perceive the terminal(s) as the airport.

I know you're keen on accuracy, but we're not all as knowledgable as you and alas make the odd c*ck-up - could you perhaps be a little more forgiving occasionally ?

[FRatSTN]

Indeed I was referring to the Terminal so sorry for any confusion, though I would of guessed most people concerned would have gathered that.

[Phileas Fogg]

DJ6 & FRatSTN,

Believe it not STN did have terminal buildings pre 1991, the pre 1991 terminal was on the other side of the runway and the original terminal, before that, had become the staff canteen on the other side of the runway, STN had been a fully functioning airport for some three decades or more before the quoted 1991 opening.

So when did SEN open ... Which terminal opening decides when SEN opened? :)

P.S.

CAA approved Laker's application on 5 October 1972, granting a ten-year licence. However, it specified Stansted rather than Gatwick as the service's UK departure/arrival point and limited the number of seats that could be sold in winter to 189 per trip, the maximum number of passengers a Boeing 707 could accommodate in a high-density, all-economy configuration. The unexpected change of the UK departure/arrival point for Laker's Skytrain service

[FRatSTN]

Indeed I was referring to the Terminal so sorry for any confusion, though I would of guessed most people concerned would have gathered that.


Obviously not!?

[Phileas Fogg]

Indeed I was referring to the Terminal

Terminal 1, 2 or 3?

Obviously 3, an airport's third terminal does not normally, if ever, decide the airport's opening date.

On that logic SEN opened, not in 1935 but, in 2011.

Here's a copy and paste from Wiki, it couldn't possibly be true as STN wasn't an airport during the 70's/80's and, by the same logic, neither was SEN :)

During the 1960s, Southend was the third-busiest airport in the United Kingdom. It remained London's third-busiest airport in terms of passengers handled until the end of the 1970s, when the role of "London's third airport" passed to Stansted

[Phileas Fogg]

Tagron,

What Wiki doesn't tell you is that STN is built on "marshy" land so that USAF constructed runway is quite a significant construction.

In a similar vein the mega hangar at STN, who operates it now I'm not sure but at the time it was constructed during the 1980's, before the airport opened in 1991 of course :) , it was owned/operated by Qualitair, well there was quite a flap going on because, being built on "marshy' land, even as they were building it it was sinking :)

[tophat27dt]

Gentlemen,
Kindly drop the subject. I have only a limited number of paracetamols over here. If I allow the bickering to continue, others will not enjoy looking at the Southend forum anymore. I have had one or two private messages.
Please stop and get back to interesting topics regarding SEN. If you want to have a bitch with somebody, kindly send them a private message. Do not do it on our forum. Thank you. :=

[Expressflight]

With Flybe having had their DUB-SEN route on sale for a week now I would have thought Aer Lingus Regional would have have quickly released their Winter 2014/15 schedule for the route. It's been clearly stated that they will continue it at 5 x weekly so why the further delay in putting it on sale? They must have lost a considerable number of bookings already.

[tophat27dt]

I do find it strange that 2 airlines are now sharing one flight each....although Stobart is common to both operations. Funny nobody there has indicated (for my previous request) what the loads are like on the new ATR72 routes. As a mattter of interest, when is the aircraft maintained, and is there a back-up plan if it goes tech?

[Expressflight]

Yes, it is surprising that nobody has logged the number of pax boarding any of the flights and reported it here, or anywhere else as far as I can see. I do have some information on forward bookings for one of the routes that starts in July but I'm not free to reveal anything on that score unfortunately.

[EssexMan61]

There is an entertaining little video on Youtube of the first days Flybe arrival from Southend at Rennes Airport. The flight was met by a pipe band. Enter "Flybe Nouvelle Liaision Rennes / Londres" on Youtube to find. There are also various Youtube videos of the early Flybe arrivals / departures at Muenster and Groningen for anyone interested. Sorry - cannot tell from these how many pax were on board though!!

[tophat27dt]

it does not surprise me to foreign enthusiasm and promotion about new routes from their regions to the giant London city. In UK its always more subdued. May be Stobarts/FlyBe insist on it..i would....you promote me or I wont come....at the end of the day its down to continued promotion.

[EI-BUD]

I'm just realising that BE are to operate SEN DUB themselves, i.e. it is not the Stobart Air operation. So in effect, BE are going head to head with Stobart Air on the route.

Equally, BE are relauching the closed INV DUB route that will compete with Stobart Air ABZ DUB route. These routes sound crazy to me..

[mikkie4]

Apart from the routes that STOBART fly from SEN,what other airports /routes do they fly?

[Barling Magna]

Stobart still seem to have plenty of money to splash around, despite low profits at SEN:
in-cumbria | Home | Carlisle Airport plans take off again (http://www.in-cumbria.com/home/carlisle-airport-plans-take-off-again-1.1143130)

Note the mention of an ultimate aim of 2 million pax per year at SEN, rather than the 5 million mentioned earlier..........

[asdf1234]

If Stobart Group were to overturn the decision of the Court of Appeal it might well be good news for Southend Airport. It might be worthwhile remembering how the Carlise - Southend route came about. Stobart want to build a freight distribution centre at Carlisle Airport and the local authority gave them conditional permission to do so. The condition was that they kept the airport open and maintained the runway for passenger operations. So Stobart needed some routes to fly and the rest as they say is history - Aer Arran was invested in, Carlisle - Southend and Carlisle - Dublin were the proposed routes and the planning condition was met. However a nearby farmer popped up and opposed the planning permission. He said that these routes would not be commercially viable and that Stobart was in fact simply paying lip service to the planning condition. After a few years they could show that the airport operations were loss making and then close the airport whilst keeping the shiny new distribution centre. The Court of Appeal agreed with him - see here :http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsaeninfo.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F04%2F brownvcarlislefinal.pdf&ei=176iU6KCAvCy7AassYD4BA&usg=AFQjCNFfp8-zev3Ey3JrFOT9X6LMgEy5RQ&bvm=bv.69411363,d.ZGU If Stobart are successful in their lastest attempt then SEN will see fee paying business arriving from Carlisle which is good news. However if the original opposition to the planning application is based in fact the route might only last a year or two before being cut. Only time will tell.

[Phileas Fogg]

SEN will see fee paying business arriving from Carlisle

You're neglecting one obvious point ... Namely that train services to/from the twilight zone are so fast these days it's quicker to take a train from central Carlisle to a London terminus that it is to travel from central Carlisle to airport, check in, wait and wait for 30 minutes or longer, fly to SEN, wait for baggage, walk to train station, wait for train, then an hour or so on a train in to a different London terminus.

Wouldn't it have been much easier to simply take the train from Carlisle to that London terminus? :)

[asdf1234]

Phileas, if you are right then Stobart must surely also know that the train beats the 'plane everytime. The conclusion would then be that the whole Aer Arran/Carlisle Airport venture is simply a side show to get the Freight Distribution Centre up and running. Let's hope that Stobart have done their homework and that the Carlisle - Southend route surprises everyone with its success!

[Phileas Fogg]

"Time to Spare ... Go by Air"

[cumbrianboy]

Of course it is fair to assume that people who wish to travel to London will not actually live on the train station, so whether you go to the airport or the train you have to travel there, and as the airport in Carlisle is not so far away and you are as likely to be able to get to either the train or airport in Carlisle in much the same time then that part of the journey can be ignored.

A quick look at national rail reveals It takes c.4 hours to travel Carlisle to London on the train. Let's assume you have to arrive 15 mins before hand, which is reasonable.

Again, you are unlikely to be visiting Euston so whether you travel to your final destination from Euston or Liverpool Street is largely irrelevant, both have excellent links to the centre of London, and arguably Liverpool street is better from a business point of view.

So, time analysis:

Train: 4hr:15 mins from arriving at the train station to arriving at a London terminus.

Air: 30 min check in, 1 hour flight, no baggage (business travellers which seem to be the aim of the game rarely check in a bag), 15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN) and 50 mins on the train.

Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins

Take the 7:02 train from Carlisle arrive in London at 11:05 (or 11:34 if you take the direct train - go figure)

Take the 07:00 flight from Carlisle and arrive in Liverpool Street 09:10

I know what I'd rather do, probably cheaper to fly as well, and of course if you happen to not be going to central london but somewhere east ….

As a further point, Newcastle to London on the train takes only 3 hours and yet they support (very well) 6 daily flights with British Airways to LHR and a double daily easyJet to Gatwick.

My point is, exactly why is service CAX-SEN such a bad idea? I would say you would certainly fill 2-3 a day on a 72 seat aircraft, easily and likely with a healthy yield ...

[serko]

It might not be all London traffic. Presumably their could be onward connections at Southend for services to Europe.

[Phileas Fogg]

cumbrianboy,

You're faking the figures:

Air: 30 min check in, 1 hour flight, no baggage (business travellers which seem to be the aim of the game rarely check in a bag), 15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN) and 50 mins on the train.

Total time from airport to london terminus: 2hr35 mins

If check-in closes 30 minutes before then, there could be a queue, so need to be there 45 minutes before, mode of transport could get delayed, might turn up late as taxi drivers do, mad panic etc., let's book the taxi for 0530 rather than 0545 ... meanwhile for the train one might be able to walk or take a bus and arrive 5-15 minutes before the train departs.

Hand baggage only ... "But excuse me maam, I have toothpaste and deodorant both of which exceed 100ml in volume" ... "Well you'll have to check them in sir for which we're going to sting you X amount and then you're going to need to wait for you baggage in (not so near) London - Southend.

15 min transfer to the train (generous at SEN)

The train is there waiting for them is it? ... LOL :)

[asdf1234]

I thinks it is pointless arguing about the respective travel times to London when expert opinion was presented in the Court of Appeal that favoured the train as the quickest mode of transport.


However Carlisle to SEN to then fly to Faro on Easyjet? That is a different proposition. Is SEN offering cheaper Easyjey flights than airports closer to Carlisle? Maybe Stobart Air are relying on providing a feeder service?

[EssexMan61]

Jolly interesting recent post on the Stansted thread by vctenderness regarding experience on arrival at Stansted. Seems to have taken well in excess of 2 hours from disembarking to reaching car park!!! My word - I was just comparing that with the SEN experience. Now - which is better? Hmmm!!!!


In particular - as a regular viewer of "Skytrax" reviews - Border Control at Stansted seems to be an ongoing and never-ending commented upon shambles. Perhaps one of the pro-Stansted contributors could comment? Are things really this dire? Give me SEN any day!!!

[Expressflight]

Actually it is possible to be on the station platform within 5 minutes of stepping off a domestic arrival at SEN. I know 'cos I've done it and with a train every 20 minutes maximum then 15 minutes 'plane to train' isn't unreasonable.

[davidjohnson6]

In comparing a Newcastle-Heathrow route against Carlisle-Southend, it's worth remembering 2 things

- Tyneside, Teesside and the associated urban and suburban area have a population over 10 times the comparable area for Carlisle
- Heathrow is one of the world's major hub airports. A ticket on BA to Heathrow will open up a vast array of connections to major cities at high frequency throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Southend is a long way from being such a hub.

[sxflyer]

Cumbrianboy's figures are entirely reasonable. The typical ill-informed and inflammatory garbage from the respondent.

I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .

Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.

Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.

The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.

[Phileas Fogg]

Jolly interesting recent post on the Stansted thread by vctenderness regarding experience on arrival at Stansted. Seems to have taken well in excess of 2 hours from disembarking to reaching car park!!! My word - I was just comparing that with the SEN experience. Now - which is better? Hmmm!!!!

After leaving STN and working at LGW I booked myself with MALEV STN/ODS/STN and took a hotac/parking/transfer package with Corus Hotels utilising the Green Man Hotel in Old Harlow.

Well upon arrival back in to STN it was a total fiasco, no transport there to meet me, calling hotel to be met with "blonde" responses, eventually, eventually, I became repatriated with my car and made my way home to LGW.

Next time I thought "I'll beat them" so I parked my car in Stansted Mountfitchet Rail Station for the 8 minute train to the airport and all went well on the inward.

Ever tried catching a train from STN airport on a Sunday? :)

[Phileas Fogg]

Cumbrianboy's figures are entirely reasonable. The typical ill-informed and inflammatory garbage from the respondent.

I've got to my car, pulled out the car park and driven past McDonalds a shade over ten minutes after touchdown from a domestic flight. You can easily be on a train by that time, they are every 10 minutes at peak so 20 mins from plane to train at worst. Even arriving on an international EZY off-peak with luggage you would be very unlucky to have to spend more than 35 mins between touchdown and train .

Online check in removed the need for business travellers to queue some time ago.

Day return pax won't have toothpaste. Any regular business passenger staying longer that doesn't know the drill deserves the punishment of a bag in the hold. Not that delivery at SEN takes very long, especially from props.

The point about proximity to airport compared to rail station in Carlisle was disregarded. Of course, not everyone will live in the very centre of Carlisle anyway and though I've not been there I'm guessing early morning buses are few and far between.

OK sxflyer,

If I am so wrong then I challenge you to get from central Carlisle to a London rail terminus in 2hrs 35mins by public transport ... It ain't ever going to happen :)

[cumbrianboy]

Phileas, did you read my post? I know that not many people live in central Carlisle, in the same way very few people live in the centre of London.

If you don't live in the centre then you need to drive to the centre with the morning rush or drive to the airport which is going against the traffic. Eitherway, you have to drive there. Forget public transport, outside of London it is too infrequent to be relied upon and anyone who has lived in the lakes (first hand experience here) will have a car.

Carlisle airport, possibly 2 flights departing together, it's an LCY-style operation, so of course you can rock up 30 mins before, no problem. In fact it will be one of their major selling points I am sure.

Your anxiety over traffic and delays etc applies equally to the train and as has been pointed out, these days everyone knows the restrictions on liquids. By the way, if you've flown recently you will know you CAN take them through security, you just have to pop them into a little clear bag.

The flight WILL take less than an hour. The transfer to the train WILL take a maximum of 20 mins (I'll let you have the 5 minutes), the train to London WILL take 50 minutes. So from arriving at the airport to stepping onto the Liverpool Street platform will take 2hr40 mins. The train DOES take 4hrs + 15 mins to arrive and collect tickets etc. Most people will probably arrive with 30 mins to spare.

So even if you fanny around for half an hour, you're still going to get to your destination at least an hour or more quicker if travelling by plane.

It is known that for a rail journey of less than 3 hours, train is quicker, that's obvious, but when you are talking >4 hours, the flight starts to look very appealing, especially if you can travel secondary airport to secondary airport and avoid the big hubs.

Sorry if I don't agree with you mr Fogg, but i used to travel regularly on the 0700 shuttle from Manchester to Heathrow and was always in central london happily by 9 in the days before the Heathrow express. If you can do it from MAN and LHR with long walks and busy airports, I am damn sure you can manage it from CAX to SEN

[Phileas Fogg]

cumbrianboy,

I'm tired now, it's 2130 hours now here in "Basingstoke", one is never going to successfully plan on checking in at STD - 30 minutes (to the second), that the route (block to block) will take 1 hour or less and then a transfer to the rail station in 15 minutes with absolutely no waiting time for a train.

My background is scheduling and never in a million years would I suggest to the honest folk of Carlisle that they could be from their front door in Carlisle to a rail terminus in London in less than 3 hours!

[cumbrianboy]

We disagree and that's what makes this such a wonderful world to be in.

The fact is, you've not been to Southend (clearly) as my times allow a wait for the train and neither have you been to Carlisle as even in bad traffic from the station to the airport is around a 16 minute drive.

Eitherway, it clearly saves times to fly, you would rather take the train. Go for it and enjoy the views …

I've made my point and stand by what I know to be accurate, if you agree or not is your prerogative!

[Phileas Fogg]

you've not been to Southend (clearly)

I worked at SEN Airport ... LOL :)

[sxflyer]

Ignore him Cumbrianman, you won't win. Don't know what the poodle comment refers to, whether it was an insult or just a cultural reference I've missed

It doesn't surprise me he's 'worked' at SEN. He's 'worked' at every other UK airport. He 'worked' in ATC the other day, today it's scheduling. Serial fantasist.

I wish the mods would just ban him for good. I hoped they would do that after the homophobic remarks, but never mind.

I think we need to get back to SEN news to avoid a thread shutdown.

[Phileas Fogg]

Ignore him Cumbrianman, you won't win. Don't know what the poodle comment refers to, whether it was an insult or just a cultural reference I've missed

It doesn't surprise me he's 'worked' at SEN. He's 'worked' at every other UK airport. He 'worked' in ATC the other day, today it's scheduling. Serial fantasist.

I wish the mods would just ban him for good. I hoped they would do that after the homophobic remarks, but never mind.

I think we need to get back to SEN news to avoid a thread shutdown.

If spotting aeroplanes is too complex for you sxflyer then perhaps you should opt for a simpler hobby such as spotting bicycles.

RAF Trade Group 9 (Air Traffic Control) includes other specialties such as Operations and Navigation ... to hell with it, I was going to take the time to educate you but you're just a kid who knows Jack Sh1t mouthing off from behind his keyboard, you want me to educate you then make an appointment :)

[Expressflight]

Phileas

Who did you work for at SEN and when? I can't recall ever bumping into anyone there quite like you.

[asdf1234]

I have flown from SEN and the previous post reminded me to share a little time and money saving tip.


For SEN locals park at the Rochford train station car park. The 2 minute train journey is well worth the savings on the SEN car park price. For those coming from further afield, park at Rayleigh train station car park. The 10 min train journey is quicker than the equivalent Rayleigh Weir to Southend Airport car journey (especially so in the morning rush hour when the trains are every 10 mins and the traffic jams into Southend are pretty bad). The money savings are around 70% of the airport parking fees.

[vulcanised]

Who did you work for at SEN and when?


Add 'and for how long' - might be relevant.

[Phileas Fogg]

Who did you work for at SEN and when? I can't recall ever bumping into anyone there quite like you.

Well you wouldn't have would you, I wasn't doing the rounds of old folks homes!

Add 'and for how long' - might be relevant.

Until a VIP operation in Lancashire made me an offer that, on the face of it, I couldn't refuse.

P.S. Keep playing with the toy Vulcan, I worked with Vulcans when they were in active service.

[Evanelpus]

Serial fantasist

We used to call them bulls:mad:ers in my day. Has the PC age really gone this far?

[Planespeaking]

Phileas, it would appear that your obviously long and all encompassing career in
Aviation, both civil and military has not taught you tolerance or wisdom.

May I suggest you please stop your bitter comments before the mods take action and either shut down the SEN thread or ban you.

Now as a SEN employee in the 60's 70's and 80's working in Cargo, Air Traffic, Ops and Management I feel qualified to request we get back to civil discourse about SEN. Thank you.

[Phileas Fogg]

Planespeaking,

I fear you're too late ... the idiots have taken over the asylum and degenerated this thread to sh1t :)

All I offered was sound objection to such a route as Carlisle-Southend-On-Sea but, alike the Cardiff thread, this Southend thread had become a haven for spotters that belong in "Spotters Corner" next door.

Will Southend ever get a thread that isn't shut down all the whilst it is infested with spotters?

[Planespeaking]

Regrettably Phileas you are revealing your ignorance of SEN.

During the many lean years at SEN is was the the support, enthusiasm and undying belief in the airport's future of the spotters that kept the flame alive.

Don't forget if it wasn't for 'spotters' in the 1930's who went on to train as pilots in the 1940's you may not be here to post your comments.

I am afraid the use of the words 'infested with spotters' in your post speaks volumes about you.

Very sad.

[SEN Observer]

I know I am new on this forum and perhaps should keep out of this, but if everyone totally ignores him/his posts he will eventually get tired of talking to himself. I think that would be the best way to deal with this to avoid being shut down. Don't respond to him.

[SWBKCB]

The conclusion would then be that the whole Aer Arran/Carlisle Airport venture is simply a side show to get the Freight Distribution Centre up and running.

Probably the only accurate comment in the whole CAX-SEN debate, and hopefully the last!

[NickBarnes]

Well apparently Phileas worked at Norwich and then showed such poor knowledge of the airport, so yes a clear fantasist.

But SEN Observer is correct just ignore him and his posts and then he will go away!

So please everyone lets stop, ignore Phileas and get back to some good discussions about SEN!:ok:

[Cymmon]

I'm backing Phileas on this one. He HAS been, seen and got the T-Shirts.

Certainly not a serial Fantasist or bulls£@tter.

I know him personally.

I , myself am the "plane spotter" , I know what I am talking about through reading books. Wish I'd got the T-Shirt as my knowledge in relation to real life with airlines, ATC etc is negligible. Then I would KNOW what I'm talking about.

[Expressflight]

SEN Observer

Yes, you're right and I for one will take your advice.

I always like to engage in debate as there is often more than one valid viewpoint but I guess sometimes 'debate' isn't actually what some people are looking for.

[tophat27dt]

There has been a lot said recently about banning certain members from this forum. As a moderator here, I suggest that you can do this yourselves.
If you are really fed up with a member you can block him, so you will not see his mails.
Log in, and at the top left you will see "User CP".
Go to "Settings and Options"
Select "Edit ignore list"
Type in the name of the person.
Click OK.

That's it. You can always release a person again if you are bored.

[Cymmon]

A sensible option for all the spotters here. I class myself as a spotter but won't block him for the depth of his experience!

[Phileas Fogg]

As an example in the MME thread a LON, even SEN, route has been discussed and the conscientious of opinion is that in this day and age the trains have become too fast whilst APD is impacting upon domestic air travel, and that has been discussed without any "fisticuffs".

Last evening (my time) just as things were "kicking off", in this thread, I made a somewhat lighthearted criticism of public transport, namely trains, at STN, it's as if it passed unnoticed and certainly without any fisticuffs.

Previously, in the Carlisle thread members, including myself, have discussed points that a SEN route would be unfeasible because the train from Carlisle to London/Euston takes just some 3.5 hours as opposed to some 3+ hours by air and then by train and combined with APD the ATR72 is too large an aircraft for such a route, this was discussed soundly and maturely in the Carlisle thread and without any "fisticuffs".

So last evening (my time) I pretty much repeated what has already been uttered in such threads as MME and CAX and all hell broke loose and the only difference being that this time it was being discussed in the SEN thread.

2hrs 35mins Carlisle check-in to alighting a train at a LON terminus is NEVER likely to work. If check-in closes at STD -30 then one needs to be there at STD-35 to STD -60, let's say for scheduling purposes STD -45. A train a quoted every 10 or 20 minutes from SEN so for scheduling purposes let's say a train every 15 minutes and an average waiting time for the train of 7.5 minutes.

So 45 minutes check-in, 60 minutes CAX/SEN, 15 minutes to train, 7.5 minutes waiting time for train then 53 minutes to London/Liverpool Street ... total, for the sake of half a minute, 3 hours and a hourly train direct from Carlisle to London/Euston seems to average a schedule of some 3hrs 28 minutes and without APD.

This is the point that has been made previously in the Carlisle thread and without any "jumping down throats", I was merely trying to reiterate this point last evening (my time) but for some reason all hell broke loose!

[LTNman]

So last evening (my time) I pretty much repeated what has already been uttered in such threads as MME and CAX and all hell broke loose and the only difference being that this time it was being discussed in the SEN thread.

I have got to say that your comments about some of the people on this thread are spot on. If these people care to read the last few posts on the Luton thread they will see that there are posts there from people who have issues with what they see as rubbish Luton but their views are treated with respect. No one has kicked off, no one is calling for a ban.

There is something unique about this thread in that if someone asks too many questions or points out a fact or even has an opinion that is not 100% pro Southend then they become a hate figure from the same immature people time and time again.

No doubt the mod reads all these comments and at some point will just close this thread down again. I think it is inevitable, it is going to happen. I try to moderate all my own posts on this thread so I won't get dragged down in the fall out that is going to happen by not criticizing individuals and by keeping my comments fairly neutral but this is a dangerous place to be.

Getting back to trains V planes. Luton has a very successful Luton-Paris service despite its rail line going direct to St Pancras and its hourly Eurostar service, which takes just over 2 hours city centre to city centre. I think it might have something to do with ticket prices often being below the rail price so maybe a Southend to the Scottish borders could work except that not many people live in that part of the world to sustain an air service

[Expressflight]

LTNman

You and I have had our quite strong disagreements over the years but I don't think we ever went in for personal abuse and I hope we retain an element of mutual respect. Criticism is fine and only to be expected, as you say, but people don't become "hate figures" just through criticising the views of others.

[PPRuNe Pop]

After spending a lot of my time reading and re-reading this thread all I see is a thread about trains! Is that how you want it? Then go find a site where you can talk about nothing else but trains.

All sense has gone from this one and caused mainly by a few people who have lost the plot.

I really do have better things to do with my time than to watch this thread go downhill because some choose head bashing rather than staying on topic and being nice.

My view now is that many of you need a holiday. Well, I am going to give you one. Two regular sensible posters have each suggested two ways to control those you don't like. Your choice is the ignore list the other is to close the thread - that is my choice.

Take a holiday, do whatever you want, this thread is now closed. A new one will be opened when the protagonists have had sufficient time to reflect.


Of course, if anyone starts a new SOUTHEND it will be closed.


PPP

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have decided to re-open a Southend thread, or rather someone who is reliable and has NOT been part of or party to the ridiculous nonsense and abuse of one kind or another over the past few weeks.


In that regard I will not allow access to the new thread by those people or anyone else who later trolls or makes a case for themselves to act against Southend or the normal interesting posters. Remember the topic is Southend.


And just to make it a little clearer, I monitor IP addresses of previous trouble makers and will have no hesitation in banning them permanently from PPRuNe. The secret to enjoying PPRuNe is repetitious enjoyment.


The headline of the thread is as above - SOUTHEND - 5. First come first served is the starter.


PPP