"No-fly zones" in the EGLL RMA ?

[DaveReidUK]

BAA announced last week that NATS had begun, a couple of weeks previously, trialling a scheme of "no-fly zones" in the RMA. These apparently cover parts of north and south London, and follow a weekly rotation, the intention being to distribute EGLL landing traffic on westerlies over different boroughs on different dates.

It was made clear that this wasn't a reference to runway alternation, but to the routes that aircraft take under radar vectoring between the end of the STAR and becoming established on the 27L/27R ILS.

I'm having difficulty getting my head around this concept and, frankly, I'd have thought that controllers had more than enough to do already without worrying that they had sent an aircraft over, say, Haringey instead of Hackney or vice versa.

Can anyone in the know explain how this scheme works, please ?

[CancelIFR]

End of the STAR? If you fly in the UK you will be on a heading before even joining the STAR. :ugh::ugh:

[DaveReidUK]

End of the STAR? If you fly in the UK you will be on a heading before even joining the STAR.

Well OK, if you say so. But I'm only interested in what happens after you have reached BNN/OCK/LAM/BIG, or on leaving the hold.

Looking at today's arrival tracks and ILS joins, it's hard to discern a pattern that suggests avoiding areas that would normally be overflown.

Anyone able to comment on what has changed recently ?

[Over+Out]

I think what you are referring to, is an attempt to keep the noise away from certain areas of London on westerlies and again certain areas west of Heathrow on easterlies at night between 0400 and 0600, on a weekly basis.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of some Londoners and some people living west of Heathrow under the approach paths.
Boxes ared used on the radar, as no fly zones during the times above, but do not affect normal operations from 0600.

[DaveReidUK]

I think what you are referring to, is an attempt to keep the noise away from certain areas of London at night between 0400 and 0600, on a weekly basis.
This method uses the skills of Heathrow Approach Controllers for the benefit of Londoners.

Thanks, that sounds logical. There wasn't any mention in the announcement of it being restricted to specific times of day, but I can see that it would be much more difficult to administer from 0600 onwards, notwithstanding the skills of the controllers.

Do you know how many zones are involved, and how many weeks the cycle takes before repeating ?

Given that it offers benefits to the communities under the flightpaths, as you rightly say, I'm surprised the scheme isn't being more widely publicised.

[ZOOKER]

How does this interface with the '3Di Metric' and the plan to reduce CO2 for individual flights?
Is it O.K to melt the polar caps and flood The Underground so those in Hampstead and Stoke Newington can have a good nights kip?

[DaveReidUK]

How does this interface with the '3Di Metric' and the plan to reduce CO2 for individual flights?

Interesting point. I suppose the answer depends on how much effect avoiding a "no fly zone" has on the track miles flown between the STAR and the runway.

Which begs the question of how the 3Di score is actually calculated for that segment of the flight. Anybody know ?

[landedoutagain]

I dont know exactly how the 3di is calculated, but I do know that it is a fairly good idea badly presented or implemented. The leaflets that were published at the time had several obvious numerical errors in it, which makes me suspicious that those behind it actually know what they are talking about! Similar to when there was the claim of saving 10% CO2 on flights, by saving 2.5% in each of taxi/climb/cruise/approach....:ugh:

Zooker - I agree entirely, but the secondary benefit of flooded undergrounds might be more people taking flights...?!! :)

[Norman.D.Landing]

Can some point out where this announcement is/was?

[118.70]

There is a reference to the trials on Zac Goldsmith's page reporting his public meeting on Heathrow

News (http://www.zacgoldsmith.com/article.asp?contentID=191&newsID=741)

and a note of a forthcoming meeting

‘No Fly’ area proposal over London City Airport flightpath - News - Newham Recorder (http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/no_fly_area_proposal_over_london_city_airport_flightpath_1_1 715481)

[radarman]

Zooker - I agree entirely, but the secondary benefit of flooded undergrounds might be more people taking flights...?!!

OMG!!! Can you imagine RYR starting services between Marble Arch and Holborn :ooh:

[DaveReidUK]

"No Fly" area proposal over London City Airport flightpath - News - Newham Recorder (http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/no_fly_area_proposal_over_london_city_airport_flightpath_1_1 715481)

Not just Newham, but Tower Hamlets too, according to the article. Rumours that the Olympic SAM batteries are to be reinstated are apparently unfounded ...

Joking aside, it sounds as if the zones have not yet been implemented, although post #4 would suggest that controllers can see them on their screens in anticipation.

The report also implies that there are two groups of no-fly zones, to be activated on alternate weeks.

[Norman.D.Landing]

I dare say all will be revealed in due course. Patience is a virtue and all that.

[Gonzo]

Heathrow sets flightpaths for early morning planes - Transport - News - London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/heathrow-sets-flightpaths-for-early-morning-planes-8381177.html)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<At the moment - amazingly - there is no defined path on the approach across London with residents not knowing exactly the noise they will get.>>

Amazingly! Where do they get these people?

[DaveReidUK]

<<At the moment - amazingly - there is no defined path on the approach across London with residents not knowing exactly the noise they will get.>>

Amazingly! Where do they get these people?

Looks like that quote has now been removed from the article in question.

Having said that, there does appear to be a fairly common misconception among the general public that arrival routes are defined in the same way as departure ones.

While BAA have a good series of factsheets on their website explaining how things work, they are quite hard to find. By contrast, their page on "Arrival procedures" talks about CDAs and joining points, but makes no reference at all to the routes taken between the hold and the ILS.

Heathrow Noise: Arrival procedures (http://www.heathrowairport.com/noise/what-we-do-about-it/measures-already-in-place/arrival-procedures)

[DaveReidUK]

Heathrow sets flightpaths for early morning planes - Transport - News - London Evening Standard

More details have been published re the no-fly zones.

For each of the runway directions there are two pairs of zones, each one 5nm x 1nm, aligned E-W and offset to the N and S of the localiser.

The inner zones start at 15nm from the threshold and extend to 10 DME; the outer zones are from 20 to 15 DME.

Traffic joining the ILS is not permitted to fly through these zones, with the inners and outers active on alternate weeks.

No details yet on how compliance is being monitored (presumably via ANOMS) or whether performance stats will be published.

[Norman.D.Landing]

Thanks for the info. Interesting that hacan are onboard with the trial. Can you explain what 'anoms' is?

[DaveReidUK]

Can you explain what 'anoms' is?

ANOMS is the system Heathrow (and other airports) use for monitoring CDAs, departure track-keeping and noise, etc.

ANOMS - Airport Noise & Operations Monitoring System - Brüel & Kjær (http://www.bksv.com/products/environmentmanagementsolutions/airportenvironmentmanagement/anoms.aspx)