Passenger in training flight

[shumway76]

Is it legal to carry a passenger (non paying of course) during a training flight (with the student & instructor on board)?
Any documents supporting it?

[taybird]

"Family and friends" trial lessons seem to be okay, where pax are carried. If there's a landaway, sometimes the student will swap places with pax to give second student a go. If not a landaway, then only one gets to be student and rest are passengers.

I did one flight as a dual student (instructor on board) with younger brother and sister in the back.

[RTN11]

Can't find a document to support, but my last school had it clarified as a passenger could be carried, but had to be part of the lesson, ie "learning by observing".

Generally this works pretty well in practice, either on gift vouchers or taking a friend or family member along on a lesson as a "taster" to see if they wanted to take it up themselves, or even taking two PPL students along for a land away to swap over and save them some money. I also did plenty of back seating during my IR which really helped.

[Whopity]

From a CAA Document (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1196/20071015IllegalPublicTransportPRCampaign.pdf):
I have been offered a flight as a passenger during
a trial lesson. Is this legal?
There is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-
paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If the only
payment made is for carriage of the trainee pilot under instruction, the flight is classed as aerial work, and no
AOC is needed. However, if any passenger has paid to
be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and
is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC. The law tells you what you cannot do, not what you can do, so finding it written down this way is as clear as you will ever find it. but my last school had it clarified as a passenger could be carried, but had to be part of the lesson, ie "learning by observing".is simply Bull****!

[RTN11]

It may well be bull****, but it was the school's policy at the time. They would allow one person in the back for a trial lesson, on the basis that they were sharing the experience.

If someone wanted to backseat a regular PPL lesson they had to be a club member. Again, this may not be in the law, but it was club policy. So if you wanted your parents to come along, they would join the club or get temporary membership if they needed it.

It works really well when two PPL students are learning together and can backseat each other, they get double for their money, although occasionally it can put people off having an observer in the back.

[taxistaxing]

As per Whopity's reply above, where I did my PPL passengers were allowed but only if the passenger was not also paying for the flight, as then it became a 'public transport flight' which required an Air Operator Certificate.

This meant that people who had paid for a trial lesson for a friend/spouse and wanted to back seat would be advised to transfer the money to the person taking the lesson, so that they could book in their own name.

Not sure if that is still the case with all the EASA changes. A relevant (but very out of date) document is linked below. The distinction seems to be between private flights/aerial work where costs are shared/split and public transport flights where the passenger is paying for their carriage and an AOC is required.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/SummaryOfCATPTAWANO2009May2010.pdf

[Whopity]

Nothing wrong with the school having such a policy as it gives relevance to it, but the question was: is it legal? It is, so long as no money changes hands for the purpose of the flight. That does not mean its desirable and it should always be at the discretion of the instructor, the student should also have a say as it may affect their performance.

The CAA statement actually contains an error because if the passenger was carried by an AOC holder, no instruction could be given, so it would no longer be a lesson.

Anyone can pay for the lesson, but not for the carriage of the passenger!

[B2N2]

If someone wanted to backseat a regular PPL lesson they had to be a club member. Again, this may not be in the law, but it was club policy.

That could very well have been an Insurance requirement.
No passengers to be carried unless.......sort of thing.

As a general rule it should not hinder the student who is the one paying for the lesson.
Don't expect to be offered a backseat everywhere you go inquiring about training.
Imagine yourself setting off for a lesson and the school decides to plonk a complete stranger behind you to observe. I wouldn't want that.
Back seating during training should be mutually beneficial as in reciprocal.

[smithgd]

I guess it depends on what it says in your ops manual. But this also exists in EASA AMC & GM for Part-FCL:

"GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience

AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES

If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board. "

I'm still not sure if the AMC & GM is law! :ugh: