Passenger in training flight
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: UK
"Family and friends" trial lessons seem to be okay, where pax are carried. If there's a landaway, sometimes the student will swap places with pax to give second student a go. If not a landaway, then only one gets to be student and rest are passengers.
I did one flight as a dual student (instructor on board) with younger brother and sister in the back.
I did one flight as a dual student (instructor on board) with younger brother and sister in the back.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
From: UK
Can't find a document to support, but my last school had it clarified as a passenger could be carried, but had to be part of the lesson, ie "learning by observing".
Generally this works pretty well in practice, either on gift vouchers or taking a friend or family member along on a lesson as a "taster" to see if they wanted to take it up themselves, or even taking two PPL students along for a land away to swap over and save them some money. I also did plenty of back seating during my IR which really helped.
Generally this works pretty well in practice, either on gift vouchers or taking a friend or family member along on a lesson as a "taster" to see if they wanted to take it up themselves, or even taking two PPL students along for a land away to swap over and save them some money. I also did plenty of back seating during my IR which really helped.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,626
Likes: 12
From: UK
From a CAA Document:
The law tells you what you cannot do, not what you can do, so finding it written down this way is as clear as you will ever find it.
is simply Bull!!!!!
I have been offered a flight as a passenger during
a trial lesson. Is this legal?
There is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-
paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If the only
payment made is for carriage of the trainee pilot under instruction, the flight is classed as aerial work, and no
AOC is needed. However, if any passenger has paid to
be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and
is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.
a trial lesson. Is this legal?
There is nothing in law to prevent the carriage of non-
paying passengers on an instructional flight, apart, of course, from solo flights by a student pilot. If the only
payment made is for carriage of the trainee pilot under instruction, the flight is classed as aerial work, and no
AOC is needed. However, if any passenger has paid to
be carried, the flight is classed as public transport, and
is illegal unless the operator holds an AOC.
but my last school had it clarified as a passenger could be carried, but had to be part of the lesson, ie "learning by observing".
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
From: UK
It may well be bull!!!!, but it was the school's policy at the time. They would allow one person in the back for a trial lesson, on the basis that they were sharing the experience.
If someone wanted to backseat a regular PPL lesson they had to be a club member. Again, this may not be in the law, but it was club policy. So if you wanted your parents to come along, they would join the club or get temporary membership if they needed it.
It works really well when two PPL students are learning together and can backseat each other, they get double for their money, although occasionally it can put people off having an observer in the back.
If someone wanted to backseat a regular PPL lesson they had to be a club member. Again, this may not be in the law, but it was club policy. So if you wanted your parents to come along, they would join the club or get temporary membership if they needed it.
It works really well when two PPL students are learning together and can backseat each other, they get double for their money, although occasionally it can put people off having an observer in the back.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
From: Central London
As per Whopity's reply above, where I did my PPL passengers were allowed but only if the passenger was not also paying for the flight, as then it became a 'public transport flight' which required an Air Operator Certificate.
This meant that people who had paid for a trial lesson for a friend/spouse and wanted to back seat would be advised to transfer the money to the person taking the lesson, so that they could book in their own name.
Not sure if that is still the case with all the EASA changes. A relevant (but very out of date) document is linked below. The distinction seems to be between private flights/aerial work where costs are shared/split and public transport flights where the passenger is paying for their carriage and an AOC is required.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf
This meant that people who had paid for a trial lesson for a friend/spouse and wanted to back seat would be advised to transfer the money to the person taking the lesson, so that they could book in their own name.
Not sure if that is still the case with all the EASA changes. A relevant (but very out of date) document is linked below. The distinction seems to be between private flights/aerial work where costs are shared/split and public transport flights where the passenger is paying for their carriage and an AOC is required.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf
Last edited by taxistaxing; 22nd November 2012 at 09:41.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,626
Likes: 12
From: UK
Nothing wrong with the school having such a policy as it gives relevance to it, but the question was: is it legal? It is, so long as no money changes hands for the purpose of the flight. That does not mean its desirable and it should always be at the discretion of the instructor, the student should also have a say as it may affect their performance.
The CAA statement actually contains an error because if the passenger was carried by an AOC holder, no instruction could be given, so it would no longer be a lesson.
Anyone can pay for the lesson, but not for the carriage of the passenger!
The CAA statement actually contains an error because if the passenger was carried by an AOC holder, no instruction could be given, so it would no longer be a lesson.
Anyone can pay for the lesson, but not for the carriage of the passenger!
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,761
Likes: 424
From: GA, USA
If someone wanted to backseat a regular PPL lesson they had to be a club member. Again, this may not be in the law, but it was club policy.
No passengers to be carried unless.......sort of thing.
As a general rule it should not hinder the student who is the one paying for the lesson.
Don't expect to be offered a backseat everywhere you go inquiring about training.
Imagine yourself setting off for a lesson and the school decides to plonk a complete stranger behind you to observe. I wouldn't want that.
Back seating during training should be mutually beneficial as in reciprocal.
Last edited by B2N2; 23rd November 2012 at 20:11.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
From: Hampshire, UK
I guess it depends on what it says in your ops manual. But this also exists in EASA AMC & GM for Part-FCL:
"GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES
If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board. "
I'm still not sure if the AMC & GM is law!
"GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience
AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES
If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with the required three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be on board. "
I'm still not sure if the AMC & GM is law!
