Qantas Engineering redundances - Advice required!!!

[The Black Panther]

Employee rights

Anna Ford, associate at Sydney law firm Coleman Greig, says there are three basic elements to a genuine redundancy.
First, under all modern awards and enterprise bargaining agreements, the employer must explain why each employee is being made redundant. They have to explain their weakened financial position, even at the risk of compromising their business.
Second, an employer cannot refill a position that has been made redundant. If a redundant employee discovered a replacement was doing their job, the decision could be challenged.
The third component is redeployment. If no genuine attempt is made to redeploy staff, the redundancy decision is likely to be contested.
“When employers ask me to handle redundancy cases, I always go through these three points with them,” Ford says. “If they can’t satisfy them, then the redundancies are not legitimate.”
While many employees regard redundancies as callous, they are usually a last resort for an employer. In announcing redundancies it is virtually certifying its own business failures.
Pacific Brands is a case in point. The company has shed an estimated 3000 jobs since it announced a controversial restructuring plan in early 2009, as part of a shift to manufacturing from China. The company, which markets more than 30 popular apparel brands, including Berlei and Bonds, became a lightning rod for community fury about Australian businesses shifting jobs offshore. In 2009, among Pacific Brand’s one-off expenses was almost A$82 million in redundancy payments.
How to minimise the pain of redundancies - INTHEBLACK (http://www.itbdigital.com/opinion/2013/03/04/how-to-minimise-the-pain-of-redundancies/?Division=Queensland&Segment=ASA)

[mightyauster]

I just don't want anyone getting a tap on the should while we have any 457's working in the aviation industry in Australia. That's the point here. If you know of any organisation tell the immigration department, tell a politician, tell a industry representative.

Tried that and none of them care...:ugh:

[Gas Bags]

Imp Shift,

What are you basing the diploma info on? When you say full B1 I assume you mean an unrestricted B1 LWTR? Are you saying that to hold an unrestricted B1 LWTR you must also hold a diploma?

Thanks.

[AEROMEDIC]

Imperial Shifter,

Maybe I have my head up my backside but I believe the industry will come full circle and Heavy Maint. will have a future in Aus. But I'm not holding my breath....and the scenario that drives that change could be horrific!

This moment will come and go. As difficult as it is right now, the irony is that "the powers that be" will start re-hiring in a couple of years.

"The needs of business" dictate everything, and even if managers can't see what strategy is best, it always ends up that they make too many staff redundant and realize their mistake too late.

I have said before in my posts that I have seen this many times before in this and other industries and each time I scratch my head to try to understand what it is the managers are doing.

The simple answer is "the cost of doing business must come down".
The argument is HOW this should be done and that has been discussed at length in this forum.

The way to deal with this is to understand that this is a cycle, and if it is a given that Qantas will get through this and remain intact as the national carrier, then it's just a matter of time.
In the meantime, those that lose their jobs find something else to earn a dollar to get by, and invariably, will find themselves back in the industry when things turn around.

I truly wish that things could be different, but it won't be as I have said.

But will it be horrific? Probably not, if history repeats itself.
There will be opportunities when re-hiring starts, and with the right credentials, you can find yourself in line for re-training in aircraft types.

Not all bad.

[eshlon]

The diff between now and then aeromedic, is the systems of maint are being changed or challenged.

A new era of maint is beginning and it doesn't involve you nor I. Ideally it would involve someone cheaper who carries only the necessary skills.

Not someone trained to the eyeballs on planes we operate or no longer operate, or never operated - earning considerably more than their equivalents at rivals.

There is a mass of dead weight that needs to get cut from RMS Qantas - true. Throwing people overboard will address the issues head on - false.

Ps. Stop f$&king hiring apprentices!!! We don't even have jobs for them now. I don't see how things are gonna change in four years. I'm not sure that they'll be thanking you for giving them a skill that can't be used on anything other than planes - the yield for their hard yards is equivalent to peanuts outside qf. It's hardly a living. Their time is better spent on training on things more mainline like mechanic, sparky, carpenter etc.

[sky rocket]

If one person does his job, many will lose theirs. If many people do their job, one will lose his.

[mightyauster]

Gas Bags said:
What are you basing the diploma info on? When you say full B1 I assume you mean an unrestricted B1 LWTR? Are you saying that to hold an unrestricted B1 LWTR you must also hold a diploma?I have just completed the theory and practical part of this process and I am currently waiting for the paperwork to be completed. My understanding of the system is CASA will only remove the restrictions from your old CAR30 license, now restricted B1, once you have completed the Diploma. The cheapest place by far I have found to do this is through Kangan TAFE in MEL.

[AEROMEDIC]

I was probably a bit OTT. But all this self regulation stuff is a bit of a worry. The self regulated "just trust us it's gunna be great" 787 demonstrates where the industry is at at the moment.

I agree, it IS a bit of a worry and hopefully (and I remain an optimist ) common sense and reason will prevail after the senate inquiry.

[600ft-lb]

This is the new system now. You meet a required level of competence which the training organisation determines, so long as they're satisfied - have a licence.

It's not the old days anymore, no more SOE's, no more CASA surveyors, nothing. Basic Licence -> Course -> PCT -> OJT -> Type Licence.

[empire4]

Part 66 was designed by the bean counters to eliminate man power costs. I full B1 guy can effectively operate on their own. How many Line maintenance task require specialised test equipment? Bye bye Avionic guy. They have been doing it in Europe for years. I know personally, B2 guys who now have a full B1 and don't know jack about mech stuff, same the other way. Fact is that now there is a shortage of licensed guys in Europe, and soon it will be in Aus. Until then we will be screwed over.

As for foreigners coming to Aus, whilst I totally disagree with the 457 Visa for aviation, a lot of Singapore LAE's paid out of their own pocket, took leave etc. Far more did it them selves than people I know from QF who were expecting the company to do it. Go do it yourselves if you are worried about your job, its happened, its crap and no amount of whinging will change it.

So when I come up to a job against you with my full CASA and EASA B1/B2 licenses you can only blame yourself.

[Jet-A-One]

You're my hero empire4 !

[AEROMEDIC]

Far more did it them selves than people I know from QF who were expecting the company to do it.

It's all very well to say this, but most can't spare the dollars that you can to complete courses, especially if there was a belief than the company was interested in providing such courses.


So when I come up to a job against you with my full CASA and EASA B1/B2 licenses you can only blame yourself.

To say this to guys facing hard times today is something they can do well without.

I've always advocated that the guys facing the chop can do what they can to enhance their skill base and give themselves a better chance out there.

Some can afford the cost, some can't. Don't put them all in the same basket.

You could be more proactive and encourage your mates with a better choice of words

[Acute Instinct]

Careful you don't price yourself out of the market big guy......The only real cost effective station for a Royal Flush such as yourself is on the moon.
Unless of course you are prepared to sign a whole heap of complex maintenance you didn't witness or understand. At least your colleagues will have your back....

[Workers Perspective]

Jack of all trades, master of none......:=

[Ngineer]

Watching the current B1 operation of the 380 fleet is like watching a very un-entertaining circus.

Problem is they reckon they are doing alright, and management are foolish enough to believe it.

[griffin one]

Engineer
Totally agree five years on from introduction the 380 model is a basket case.
No direction so called integration with Sam and composite crew modelling with limited or no licence coverage.
With the 787 grounded and no Q licensing how exactly will j* successfully introduce the 787?
While the company wishes to throw out the baby with the bath water, I can see 767 retirements being extended much like the classic 747 was. All while redundancies seem to be focused on single type. It is these single type licenced guys who actually keep the 767/747 fleet flying.

When the pillar model is finally introduced there will be even more limited b2 coverage.the only way we can survive after this is to run back to back licence training but sadly nobody wants to address this issue.

[the_company_spy]

What are the issues with the 380 model?

[empire4]

I think I'm not communicating myself well enough, I DON'T AGREE with the system, NOR do I personally hold a B1/B2. I'm just stating some facts of our situation. As harsh as they are.

Don't have the spare cash? It all depends on your priorities I guess, I'm sure you could add the 2K to a mortgage or personal loan, you could also sit the basics and hand in elec SOE. There are ways that don't cost too much.

Sorry if I offended anyone, that was not the goal.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon Unlimited overtime being done and people stepping in to do the jobs of those made redundant as well as there own job :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Working large amounts of overtime only hastens their own demise.

[Acute Instinct]

I think I'm not communicating myself well enough, I DON'T AGREE with the system, NOR do I personally hold a B1/B2. I'm just stating some facts of our situation. As harsh as they are.

Yeah, we as the collective agree with you, you didn't 'communicate' yourself well enough.
You said,
So when I come up to a job against you with my full CASA and EASA B1/B2 licenses you can only blame yourself.
NOR do I personally hold a B1/B2
We have a fair idea what you stand for, even if you don't......

[duderanch]

re Working large amounts of overtime only hastens their own demise.

You know what bites me the most Steve, these guys as you would know were the stand up guys in our previous dispute. When its over money they will bring an airline to its knees but when anyone else but themselves are losing their jobs they couldn't give a crap. Greed greed greed.
Won't be too long till CN moves on and the next might take the smart decision of releasing the $200,000 a year guys and train up the cheaper legacy guys on $90,000. Thats 3 LAMEs for the price of 1. Sleep tight boys.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

G’day all,



ALAEA will be running two Rowers Club meetings nextWednesday the 13th of March to discuss the ongoing Sydney redundancysituation. Meetings will start at 1600and 1830. These meetings are not paidcompany meetings so it best to try and catch one on the way to or from work ifrostered on that day. If rostered off itis recommended you try and get to either meeting. Meetings are expected to last 1.5 hours.



Cheers

Steve Purvinas

[cvrurass]

Steve,

When are the Avalon redundancy meetings being held?

We have not seen you through this whole process.

Cheers

[Long Bay Mauler]

http://i.imgur.com/nwSrT.jpg

[Jethro Gibbs]

Looks like you have your answer Cvrurass .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Avalon is covered by our National Organiser Brad Stewart.

Jethro you forgot to post yesterday that another 5 people were made redundant.

[Jethro Gibbs]

That many have gone i lost count

[genxfrog]

Jethro...Jethro....Jethro, how many times have we seen your type in our ranks. Those that dont want to be in a collective, ride off the backs of their fellow workmates and then throw criticism all over the hangar (and here) but offer no constructive ideas or solutions. You dislike everyone and everything but you wont do anything about it. You're boring, your comments are repetetive and predictable and almost as inspiring as listening to C Nappystain delivering his roadshow..........ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz :zzz:

[cvrurass]

Steve,

I understand that Brad is assigned to Avalon.

I want to know when are redundancy meetings being held and when you or other high ranking ALAEA representatives plan to address the troops like you seem to be doing for the Sydney members?

Cheers

Avalon ALAEA Member

[Jet-A-One]

I wonder if the A380 w@nkers that have been ca$hing in on the OT will be game to show their faces at the union meeting on Wednesday? Then again, it doesn't really affect them being a protected species and they obviously don't care what happens to other members further down the food chain. We even had a whole crew shamelessly show up for OT in Base the other day. I hope all members are giving them the reception they deserve and will all remember them into the future.

[legacy LAME]

How do you expect our a380 heros to not do overtime when
The AME union rep in base is doing the maximum amount possible?
Pretty piss poor the amount of solidarity shown by some.
Exactly how does doing heaps of OT and helping CN get rid of people seem like a good idea? I suppose when you know you are safe, you don't need to give a f**k
about anyone else do you. May as well make yourself look good to management and make a load of coin to boot eh
What I love is you don't talk to these ----'s when they are on your crew because
You don't want to say something you will regret, now they are getting upset because we are not talking to them!! Harden up ladies!
When this is over people will have plenty to say to you.
Looking forward to Wednesday meeting
Great picture bug a lugs

[Bootstrap1]

Solidarity. Wow what a strong word. There has never been total solidarity at base, never. Don't expect it to start now. What the place does have though is a very short memory. This is the first time that base is really feeling threatened, most other times when VR/CR was happening base was the protected species doing the OT. Speak to any ex HM person, I am sure they will remember the solidarity shown for them.

[legacy LAME]

Could not agree more bootstrap1
Remember the ex heavy guys went far and wide, even to base

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Getting all upset about the past could destroy your future.

[QF94]

Bootstrap1, there has never been solidarity anywhere in QANTAS. It's always been the case that if your section is not in trouble, who gives a rats? Now that the axe is swinging through all sections, the anal sphincter muscles are working O/T. I never expect anyone to have my back or look out for me. Been burnt with that misconception in the past.

AlaeaFed Sec
Getting all upset about the past could destroy your future.

That's a strange bit of advice. It's the past that was destroyed that has caused the current problems of today moving well into the future. NEVER FORGET!!!

The O/T issue is but one of many issues that need to be addressed. Not the primary or only one. The direction of the company needs to be addressed. This isn't going to happen with "unofficial O/T bans". This is only going to happen with a change of the board, and there's only 11 to go.

CASA, unions and even the government aren't going to change where QANTAS is going. Our tie-up with Emirates is making sure we will not expand, but contract. Our retiring of the 747and 767 fleet is helping this also. Updating outdated 767's to HNL but not increasing capacity is doing nothing to expand QANTAS's routes. Pulling out of FRA is not helping either. Making Asia a destination and not a transit hub isn't helping to expand. Dropping BKK doesn't help.

What's the answer? It's complicated, but a change of the the QF board and upper management is a start. NOT reintroducing Dixon and co. is also of great benefit. A management team made up of QANTAS people who look past their five year tenure, and aren't solely focussed on investors returns, not that there's been any for the last five years or so. QANTAS at the moment is run very similarly to the current Federal Government. They will push things through to meet their own needs, can't make a decision on their own without having outside consultancy groups making their decisions for them, and EVERYTHING comes down to the dollar. They have no hesitation in blowing money on wrong aircraft types and marketing. This is all done without accountability, but when it comes to spending money on the right equipment and aircraft, it all needs a business case and committee meetings to justify it, and even then in most cases it will be rejected.

If "unofficial O/T bans" is the best we've got, then we're stuffed well and truly. All those that have had a sudden desire to spend more time with their families, will have all the time they can handle in the not-too-distant future.

[Bootstrap1]

Well said QF94 I agree.

No one has your back except yourself and maybe 1 or 2 close workmates. Unless that is you are part of one of the many cliques that this place has and then your are truly on your own.

[1me]

When this is all said and done and the pages of history have gathered the dusts of time, who will remember what we did or achieved?

It certainly won't be the general public. Whilst they may cast a disapproving eye towards the callous and calculated actions of the select few, they remain opiated by the market that controls them. Cheap fares and a good safety record soothes and lulls the masses.

It certainly won't be the politicians who can see only as far as the next election and are too busy pandering to the bleatings of vocal minorities and big business to care about such trivial matters as air safety and the loss of local expertise and industry.

Will it be the unions who seem unable put aside biases and personal agenda's to work together and present a united front? Or will this battle be too painful a reminder of their impotence and discord?

No..

The one's who will remember will be us my friends; the engineers. The guys and girls who sweated it out through the height of Australian summers and froze our bums off through the chilliest of winters. The people who were out there at 2am changing engines with the rain blowing sideways; our fingers so numb we could barely grip our spanners.

It will be those guys who endured the same tasks for days on end as they slowly disassembled and reassembled aircraft undergoing heavy maintenance checks; perfecting their craft so as to achieve benchmark turn-times.

It will be those who fought deadlines and nil stock situations, strategy maps and LEAN processes to try and get the aircraft to serviceability and meet schedule.

It will be the one's who overhauled engines ensuring that IFSD rates were the lowest in the world and who devised processes and repair schemes that even the manufacturers would adopt.

It will be all those who missed out on spending quality time and celebrating significant moments with their friends and family.

In short it will be us.. We will remember when no-one else does.

[1me]

the anal sphincter muscles are working O/T

QF94.. harsh.. but fair!! :D

[EWANQF]

I seem to recall our union defending a certain LAME in Brissy over being harassed and intimidated by a QANTAS manager.Will my union defend me if I am harassed and intimidated by my work colleagues for doing a small amount of overtime?....Steve.....??.(yeah I know,I know,look at the big picture.And when I ask my union rep to explain what the "big picture" is he can't)

[1me]

EWANQF:

How about you grow some mate?? We're not in kindergarten here. If you want to do O/T (along with "the other anal sphincter muscles working O/T"-to quote QF94) then that's your choice..

[EWANQF]

Well if its my choice to work O/T,then dont harass me.If you voted for this EBA,then you are obliged to work within it.If you want to make a stand,go for it.But dont dictate your unwanted hatred for the company to your fellow workmates. And before you start down the "whoa is me I am about to become redundant" line.I have had redundancies in the past,so dont tell me to grow some.Go and talk to any of the Heavy brothers in Brissy if you want to get a feeling of this "unoffical O/T ban".They are working more O/T than ever before.Tell them to stop working it and they will kick your arse out of that hangar,and politely remind you to mind to your own business.Hell,even the union reps are doin O/T.

[Hugh Mungous]

"the anal sphincter muscles are working O/T"
Maybe not quoted in the context it was intended, but yes, yes they are..

[1me]

Well if its my choice to work O/T,then dont harass me.

Who's harassing you? I just told you to grow up!

If you voted for this EBA,then you are obliged to work within it.If you want to make a stand,go for it.But dont dictate your unwanted hatred for the company to your fellow workmates.

No hatred for the company here mate..quite the opposite actually. I only have issues with some of it's employees, including blokes who piss into the wind and then complain they got wet. My workmates are decent blokes.


And before you start down the "whoa is me I am about to become redundant" line.I have had redundancies in the past,so dont tell me to grow some.

I appreciate that you have had the rough end of the stick and it is a travesty that it happens, but engaging in an action you know to be divisive and emotive and then complaining that your workmates don't blow you kisses anymore as a result is just plain silly. That's something kids do. Man-up!


Go and talk to any of the Heavy brothers in Brissy if you want to get a feeling of this "unoffical O/T ban".They are working more O/T than ever before.Tell them to stop working it and they will kick your arse out of that hangar,and politely remind you to mind to your own business.Hell,even the union reps are doin O/T.

That's their prerogative just like it's yours, but how about you come and share these sentiments at the meeting on Wednesday so we can all get the picture?

[Silverado]

I seem to recall our union defending a certain LAME in Brissy over being harassed and intimidated by a QANTAS manager.Will my union defend me if I am harassed and intimidated by my work colleagues for doing a small amount of overtime?....Steve.....??.(yeah I know,I know,look at the big picture.And when I ask my union rep to explain what the "big picture" is he can't)

I'm quite sure the union will defend the right people.

[the_company_spy]

The eba no longer states you must work over time, in fact quite the opposite.

[AEROMEDIC]

I'd be interested if the fatigue management policy is being managed at all.

If so, I'd wonder how many have exceeded their safe quota and if management is aware.

[EWANQF]

1me,the only divisive and emotive issue where I am working is having to cop unofficial O/T ban "pressure" from the union/reps/workmates.I would say 99% of the guys on my crew don't believe it is going to make 1 ounce of difference in saving most of the jobs.Quite the opposite,if no one does O/T,would the bean counters not look at that port/work area,and deem that they must be overstaffed.Do you really think that doing O/T for someone who has gone sick is going to save anyones job in Sydney,now that is childish.Agreed,it is sad that people will lose their jobs,but hey people are losing their jobs in every industry daily.At least the company is offering alternative employment in Brissy Hangars,with transfer packages.The mood is changing,LAMES just want to come to work,do their job and go home.The union reps know the feelings of the LAMES in other ports outside of Sydney.And no,I am not burying my head in the sand,this is the new reality,things are changing rapidly and even if the engineering is being run into the ground,there really is nothing you can do.(ie they shut the bloody airline down last time it got tough...don't you remember).Its time to move on 1me,no one outside of QANTAS really cares about working in the rain at 2am during winter.You chose this industry,I chose this industry.I am going to stick with it as long as I can.And if that means adapting to change,then that is what I will do.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Quite the opposite,if no one does O/T,would the bean counters not look at that port/work area,and deem that they must be overstaffed

I have no idea what you are on but bean counters do not think like this. They see work being completed, great, we must have too many people. Bean counters are not employed to count. They are employed to tell management what they want to hear. In this case if they say, yes Chris sack 20% of your staff, he is wrapt and they get their 5 million for saying it.

I think you are assuming that bean counters are logical thinkers like us.

[EWANQF]

Fedsec,so you are saying ,if the work is completed regularly with O/T or the work is completed with no O/T the end result is the same?.Flawed logic me thinks.And no I am not on anything......yet.

[Silverado]

They only thing they understand is delays.

Go work overtime, get the aircraft out on time, pat yourself on the back and watch them sack you or your fellow colleagues.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Can I answer with a question?

WTF would the work be completed if Qantas kind find enough boys to work the needed overtime?

[Silverado]

Or dont work overtime, show the company that they cant even keep the operation working, even without forced redundancies. And then maybe, just maybe they might have to question their numbers!

[ABAT4t2]

A the end of the day mate, everybody has to make their own choice. However the only way to make progress here is to ensure Qantas knows you exist. That means they absolutely need to feel it when you are not there regardless of the need for overtime. If one fails on that point you lose everything.

It is very simple Ewan and if your butt can't stop twitching, plug it until this is all over.

[EWANQF]

Like I said,go and talk to Brissy Heavy guys.If they do no O/T, planes goes out late,lose the work,lose their jobs.I am not twitching ABAT.Seen it all before.The only ones twitching are the bully boys who are about to lose their Qantas"job for life".Make hay while the sun shines I say.

[The Big E]

It's the past that was destroyed that has caused the current problems of today. NEVER FORGET!!!

Ain't that the truth. Those who ignore the errors of the past are destined to repeat those same errors going forward into the future. Just look at the havoc that Geoff, James, the Wespac chick, Alan, and the polka dotted tie wearing engineering clown have wreaked on the once fine Flag carrier to drag it down to a shadow of its former self.:ugh:
It's a far cry from the place it was when I did my B707, JT3D, and Extension "A" E & I training there in the 70s.:ok:
Good luck to ya all, hang tough, and fight the good fight.:D
Regards, Big E.

[1me]

I would say 99% of the guys on my crew don't believe it is going to make 1 ounce of difference in saving most of the jobs.

My guess is that these are the blokes who happily come in to work O/T.

Quite the opposite,if no one does O/T,would the bean counters not look at that port/work area,and deem that they must be overstaffed.

EWANQF I don't quite follow your logic here. To my reckoning if no O/T was performed there would be less available man hours to acquit maintenance thereby creating backlogs. With people working O/T the available man-hours increase allowing more maintenance to be acquitted. The net result is more aircraft available to the airline. I fail to see how not being able to acquit scheduled maintenance means that a section is overstaffed.

And no,I am not burying my head in the sand,this is the new reality,things are changing rapidly and even if the engineering is being run into the ground,there really is nothing you can do.(ie they shut the bloody airline down last time it got tough...don't you remember)

So you'd just rather throw your hands up in the air and give up? "It's too hard..I can't do it.." You may very well be right in that there's not much we can do but why make any easier for them than it should be?

Its time to move on 1me,no one outside of QANTAS really cares about working in the rain at 2am during winter.You chose this industry,I chose this industry.I am going to stick with it as long as I can.And if that means adapting to change,then that is what I will do.

If you read my post then you will find that that is exactly what I'm saying.. nobody cares but us! Adapting to change is one thing EWANQF but to me that doesn't include working O/T when the company is going to push good people out the door under the premise that we are overstaffed!

Will we see you at the meeting on Wednesday?

[Romulus]

Or dont work overtime, show the company that they cant even keep the operation working, even without forced redundancies. And then maybe, just maybe they might have to question their numbers!

or maybe just call it ineffective and shut it down.

[Bootstrap1]

Romulus, once again, you are one of the few who can wade through the sh1t and put a realistic view on things.

[Syd eng]

Well I guess I left in this VR for the right reasons. I could see what was going to happen and did not want to be a part of it. They are dividing and conquering, they have got the internal bickering going.
Am so glad to have walked away and saw none of it because without doubt this crap is going to ruin careers and most of all, the friendships that are made when you work with guys 20+ years.
Remember that is much easier to beat a team of individuals than it is to beat a team of players!
Stick together guys and remember many of you will be around a lot longer than any of the management.

[EWANQF]

1me,this airline has 120+ jets.They will shuffle the oustanding work around the network and it will get done with or without O/T.You wont even realise you are doing it.Like I said,good blokes will lose their job and that is sad but hey maybe we are overstaffed,with full MOD around the corner,blokes clambering over each other for B1 training you must be naive to believe the current LAME numbers are going to stay the same.Hey here is an idea,say no to any future aircraft B1 type training .That will save more jobs than people not doin O/T.Union reps take note.Make a stand and show your fellows LAMES how its done.
Knock the training back............I know they or you couldnt do......could you.

[Ngineer]

Hey here is an idea,say no to any future aircraft B1 type training

:D yeah good luck with that, we all know what you greasers are like.

[another superlame]

Romulus your point about being ineffective and shutting it down, I hope you are not onto something there.

But the way things are, we might be playing the game they want us to play. A workforce resistant to the change they want ,its too hard for them. So they bring in the third party provider, the only qantas paid engineers will be the guys in MOC and tech services.

I do remember Uncle Geoff telling us a few years ago that there were 100,000 chinese engineers who would love to do our work.

He had a way with words, so inspirational.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

They can't just outsource your current jobs.

[another superlame]

Given their recent track record, I bet they would give it a go anyway.

[EWANQF]

Bingo Superlame!

[Romulus]

the only qantas paid engineers will be the guys in MOC and tech services

Why would you keep them?

[Romulus]

They can't just outsource your current jobs.

Why not?

Happens every day in businesses around the country, aviation is no different.

[EWANQF]

Can't outsource our jobs.WTF is Brissy heavy then?And while I am now on something Fedsec,nice QANTAS tie up with the EK hub for the 380 maintenance happening as we speak.You know it is going to happen.

[1me]

Why not?

Happens every day in businesses around the country, aviation is no different.


Romulus, have a look in the EBA..

And EWANQF you haven't answered my question.. will you be attending the meeting on Wednesday?

[1me]

Can't outsource our jobs.WTF is Brissy heavy then?

Technically that's not outsourcing. It is a relocation. The work is still being done in-house albeit in a different state. I know Sydney blokes still lost their jobs though.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Firstly Ewan come along on Wed and try and spread your "lets cave in now" attitude. If the majority agree, we will stand back and let the place be decimated.

Why not?

Happens every day in businesses around the country, aviation is no different.

Yes I know it does but these businesses don't have EBA's or Agreements with the same or similar job security clauses as ours. We spent all last week debating it in Fed Court with the uberpriced Qantas legal team. I know Romulus you will understand this a little.

Our clause is explicit, it protects us by stating that Qantas will "retain the existing job functions of employees covered by the Agreement". They can slip the net by "retaining" in a different State (Bne Heavy) so long as the Employees are also covered by the Agreement. Anything else seems to be pushing the boundaries too far.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

EK hub for the 380 maintenance happening as we speak.You know it is going to happen.

Yes and I hear Qantas are going to close their 380 dept in Syd as they expand the Domestic terminal through H96. To be announced some time next month, only want 16 (m) and 8 (a) 380 LAMEs. Looks like someone is trying to turn back the clock and prove they can run it with 24.

[EWANQF]

Its not a "lets cave in"attitude its a "lets be realistic" attitude.Sydney is gone,go to Brissy Heavy or any other line port,try Cns or Per or Bne.Hold a meeting and see the reaction from the guys on the floor.We know we are next on the chopping block.The reps know it too.Hopefully some interstate reps can go and report back what the "big picture" is.I am not the minority.

[Romulus]

Yes I know it does but these businesses don't have EBA's or Agreements with the same or similar job security clauses as ours. We spent all last week debating it in Fed Court with the uberpriced Qantas legal team. I know Romulus you will understand this a little.

Our clause is explicit, it protects us by stating that Qantas will "retain the existing job functions of employees covered by the Agreement". They can slip the net by "retaining" in a different State (Bne Heavy) so long as the Employees are also covered by the Agreement. Anything else seems to be pushing the boundaries too far.

I was there Thursday (interested bystander not involved in any way).

Outcome will be interesting.

[POT100]

I tend to agree with Ewan..
The fact is 2yrs ago we had more a/c..No company is not going to keep the same amount engineers to service fewer aircraft.If this is your business,would you do it?..
Due to extremely poor business decisions, QF don't have a replacement type for us to move on too, in order to keep our engineers.
So we're stuck with an ever dwindling International operation run by people who are so far out of their depth that its scares the sh*t out of me!..CN is the danger man and whilst he still runs the show - engineering will die a slow death!..He wasn't employed for his Dutch sense of humour!..Look how he destroyed NZ Engineering, which took years rectify..

It is true that delays are the only thing Management will look at!..I don't think OT should be stopped in other ports.Just work strictly to the book and follow their procedures to the letter.As we all know if we all worked to all the bullsh*t procedures they've set out - nothing will fly!..So take that 4 hours to do that check 2 etc...
Then we'll see whose laughing!! :ugh::ugh:

[1me]

POT100:

I tend to agree with Ewan..
The fact is 2yrs ago we had more a/c..No company is not going to keep the same amount engineers to service fewer aircraft.If this is your business,would you do it?..

By the same token if "my business" was so overstaffed due to less aircraft in operation why would I be offering open slather O/T? Surely the excess in manpower would be more than adequate to cover the current workload?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

From what we are hearing the workload has that much of a backlog that the dam wall is going to eventually burst. Checks have currently been extended beyond the 100% mark because they just don't have enough staff.

The ALAEA has formally raised the problems of excessive overtime with management. As you know we are particlarly intersted in collecting this data from members. Qantas are constantly breaching their own policies on fatigue and we think that an airline that has to comply with its own policy would not be able to sack so many people. Problem is that they throw it straight back in our faces by saying "well its your members who are bending the rules". Same comment came from CASA when reported there.

I have said it from the outset. Excessive overtime costs jobs. 4 extra 12 hour shifts is one man's work for a week (yes 8 days on 4/4 cycle I know).

[EWANQF]

There is no open slather O/T where I am.Just normal run of the mill.That has been my point all along.O/T where I am is done by maybe the same 20 people for the last 20 years.It is not being done at the detriment of other bases.Thanks POT sanity prevails.An international fleet being cut by 50% and predomidently serviced in Sydney equals job losses.Sorry for the bad news.

[Bootstrap1]

A380 maintenance in DXB, that has been kept quiet. What about the rumours that EK barely have the capacity to do their own let alone take on 3rd party work?

This also goes along with what superlame said, that they will do what they want anyway regardless of what the EBA says.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

POT100...
He wasn't employed for his Dutch sense of humour!..Look how he destroyed NZ Engineering, which took years rectify..

Perhaps the very reason he was employed was because of what he achieved at AirNZ.

[the_company_spy]

Steve, if the eba states clearly that job functions must be retained by engineers covered by the agreement, how can they retrench qantas LAMEs in Sydney while scaling up work carried out by god knows who in LA?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

LAX is a Qantas base so they will try and transfer as much work as they can there (hence the new hangar). They have some token Qantas guys based there so the work is carried out by employees covered by the Agreement. Same as when they shut 245 and moved south.

[the_company_spy]

But the qf guys in lax are on contract, on local conditions. No one up there gets the terms and conditions of the eba. In fact they are all without a life line surely, there is no way they could just waltz back into a line job in Sydney?

[Big M]

Well,

From the guys who've been to LAX the last year or two, it's well known to be a "cheapest way to get the maintenance signed off" type of operation. Nothing to do with getting the maintenance "done"

When AirNair gets the mexican guys to turn up at the 50 yard line at 0700 to "perform" all the maintenance on the 380's/744's after working a full nightshift on their own A/C, it surely must be worlds best practice. :yuk:

All inspection tasks "signed off" with of course NO Defects - these are not allowed. All aided and abetted by AirNair and his lapdogs Storesy and Hey Would. A few more in a long line of former LAME's who are still "on the books" as LAME's because they won't give up the pay and conditions that have been fought for over 50-60 years. Meanwhile, CN states that LAME's are overstocked - if he got rid of these guys off the books who aren't fixing A/C, then there wouldn't be too many.

A current situation,
- There's a grade 15 avionic LAME
- He's got a 380 rating and payment
- He's a former DMM, yet also retains that payment
- He is on the books as a leading hand of a 380 crew
- He's getting paid full shift penalties as if working 24/7 shift

Result,
- He comes to work when he feels
- As he is on the books as a LAME, he will force another
younger/less qualified guy out the door.
- He is actually doing a "managers role" for a completely
different station, so is providing nothing to the crew/section
that he is technically allocated to.
- On a day to day basis he uses none of his aircraft type training
and/or experience.
- He refuses to be taken off the LAME award as it is so much better
and he loves to be the 200k guy and tell everyone!

Don't get me wrong, this guy is a good engineer, highly trained and
extremely competent. Thing is, he is not using any of this knowledge
or experience to fix/maintain A/C.

If he wants to go play manager, then that's fine - no problem. But for
chr**^sakes, make him take a lowly managers wage, he sure isn't earning it as a LAME.


Australian jobs destroyed by these clowns and worse still, the level of safety reduced once again in the name of saving a dollar.
'Safety before schedule' - a completely laughable tagline.

[Ngineer]

They can't just outsource your current jobs.

Maybe taken in the wrong context, however as an example, outsource IFE work then a few months (or a few years) down the track sack a few more people. Who cares if the IFE service provider is using 457 visa's.

Get rid of all 3rd party work and let the competition build themselves up. Once again who cares if they use 457's?? Obviously not the Labor government.

Stop training B2's and let them die through attrition. Ramp up Type A training and let the B1 tradies go.

It's all happening as we speak.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes Ngineer. They do have some pretty nasty plans being executed or up the spout. IFE....mmm....yes I remember now, meeting Rowers 2001, Executive member Hey Would trying to convince us all that it was just work on top of what us Qantas Avionic guys could handle. Discussion of this meeting is still debated today, I was questioned about it in the Federal Court last week where we are seeking enforcement of the Job Security clause.

The old ALAEA signed away IFE work years ago.

[1me]

There is no open slather O/T where I am.Just normal run of the mill.That has been my point all along.O/T where I am is done by maybe the same 20 people for the last 20 years.It is not being done at the detriment of other bases.

Well ever since the announcement in November it seems as though we are getting text messages requiring us to work O/T every other day. They even send requests out to guys who are sleeping between night shifts! Talk about managing fatigue! Considering that prior to November the requested O/T was virtually nil for at least 12-18 months preceding, I'd pretty much call that open slather..

An international fleet being cut by 50% and predomidently serviced in Sydney equals job losses.Sorry for the bad news.

But hang-on, we're overstaffed! With all those planes we don't have anymore surely that means we have enough people to acquit the required maintenance without needing to work O/T? So those same 20 people who have been working all the O/T for the last 20 years when we had more planes can relax and de-stress..

I would say 99% of the guys on my crew don't believe it is going to make 1 ounce of difference in saving most of the jobs.

Yeah.. funny that isn't it?

[ampclamp]

Not sure if true but I heard a yarn about someone who was called for O/T after being made redundant .:ooh:

With leave being knocked back and all the O/T surely it will be tough making a redundancy argument if airframe numbers do not change too much ? SIO sadly may struggle with the determined efforts to pull out of just about everywhere.

[1me]

Yes Ngineer. They do have some pretty nasty plans being executed or up the spout. IFE....mmm....yes I remember now, meeting Rowers 2001, Executive member Hey Would trying to convince us all that it was just work on top of what us Qantas Avionic guys could handle. Discussion of this meeting is still debated today, I was questioned about it in the Federal Court last week where we are seeking enforcement of the Job Security clause.


A bit like when Keith Clark and Brenton Maille tried to convince us that there was this great facility in Avalon that could be used to accomplish a 747 interior reconfig program. 22 months in duration they assured us and then the facility would be shut down.. Oh but hang on we'd like to do a 747-400 interior reconfig program now and once that's complete then we'll shut the facility down.. oh wait a minute you guys in Sydney Heavy are flat-out! We'd like to relieve you of this burden and do "overflow" work at Avalon.. not core work mind you just overflow work.. And now it has just occurred to us that it is not viable to do ANY heavy checks in Sydney. We have built this you beaut multi-bay hangar in Brisvegas to do our 767 work in.. Oh and we have a great facility in Avalon to do the Jumbo work.. Sorry Sydney.

[1me]

Mr Fed Sec can you desist with your current unofficial O/T ban or make it official.

imperial shifter you know making it official can't possibly happen outside of a protected bargaining period! So are you advocating that people should work as much O/T as they like?

[ampclamp]

Imperial shifter , Only fed sec here posts without anonymity. Those others espousing views may well have entirely different purposes and represent a different side than what they supposedly represent. Some maybe fair dinkum others stirring or trying to create division.

These sites have more trolls than a Lord of the Rings movie.

[Silverado]

If I'm right then I reckon at some point soon your legacy EBA will also be restructured to a more modern one where you will have reduced pay and conditions. Only then will the culling stop.

REDUCED PAY! tell that to the large number of QF LAME's that earn less than their counterparts at Jetstar!

[1me]

Imperial shifter , Only fed sec here posts without anonymity. Those others espousing views may well have entirely different purposes and represent a different side than what they supposedly represent. Some maybe fair dinkum others stirring or trying to create division.

These sites have more trolls than a Lord of the Rings movie.


Sad but true.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

You know what. I will do everything within my ability and power to protect your jobs. If you don't like what I say, think of the alternative. I've seen it in plans sent to our office by Qantas managers who are against what people are doing to our great company.

Some people may say here or in the workplace whatever they want. Many of them unfortunately think they are safe from the axe when they are not. If they knew the true extent of what they want to do to you, they may think a little differently. My motives are doing my job properly and I don't think I have ever been accused of anything other than that.

[the_company_spy]

So what is the end game Fed Sec. What do they have planned?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Will talk again about their plans at tomorrow's meetings.

[The Big E]

Quote:
[All inspection tasks "signed off" with of course NO Defects - these are not
allowed. All aided and abetted by AirNair and his lapdogs Storesy and Hey Would. A few more in a long line of former LAME's who are still "on the books" as LAME's because they won't give up the pay and conditions that have been fought for over 50-60 years. Meanwhile, CN states that LAME's are overstocked - if he got rid of these guys off the books who aren't fixing A/C, then there wouldn't be too many.]

He will never get rid of these flunkies, as every airline has these "pen men" lurking in the wings. They pen stuff off without any thought for the overall Airworthiness standards etc., and in so doing are well thought of (as good Company men) by the likes of Geoff and his polka dotted tie wearing lap dog (who did more than their share towards the downhill spiral).:ugh:
These guys (some of who may at one time have been fairly capable in the past, but now throw common sense out of the window for it to be dispersed by the 4 winds) are the real "root cause" of the underlying problems that the real grafting LAMEs have faced for many years.
Have a good cleanout by starting with the Board, and then these guys shortly afterwards, or vice versa if you so choose.
The funding taxpayers and the QF passengers deserve nothing less than a new start towards restoration of the once proud flag carrier.:D
Regards, Big E.

[One Eye Redundant]

[QUOTE]Have a good cleanout by starting with the Board/QUOTE]

Anybody with a grip on reality knows that this will never happen. Any board who can get away with all of the lies and despicable acts that these clowns have over the last few years, knows that they are virtually bullet proof. All I can suggest is that you listen to the Fed Sec. He has your best interests at heart. If the board really want rid of you all, they will put all of their efforts in that direction. Don't make it easy for them!
At least then if you lose your jobs, you can walk away with your integrity intact, and know that you did your best to keep a once great airline going.
Remember, this airline was started by pilots and engineers. Not greedy, grubby little men in suits, pushing their own selfish little agendas.

[Sunfish]

One eye redundant:

At least then if you lose your jobs, you can walk away with your integrity intact, and know that you did your best to keep a once great airline going.
Remember, this airline was started by pilots and engineers. Not greedy, grubby little men in suits, pushing their own selfish little agendas.

Well said. The current behaviour of the Board and Senior Management of Qantas remind me of a former emplyer of mine - I was marketing manager of a division of Email Limited.

The Board and Senior Management of Email Limited knew the price of everything and the value of nothing as I gradually found out after joining them. Their head office was not far from Mascot (Silverwater).

The made penny pinching into an art form and totally rooted the business by not investing much in it for new technology, and what they did invest in was always too late and the wrong technology. When their Managing Director was on the Board of Telecom (telstras predecessor), Telecom installed the then "new" carphone technology in his limousine as a surprise during a Board meeting. When he saw it he made them take it out as he didn't want his Salesmen and managers getting ideas about having car phones - that was the sort of idiot he was. They were also extremely cruel to their employees.

Our division was an accident - we made very high technology stuff that they needed a bit of in a hurry, so they bought us. We also made the absolute world leading oil terminal automation systems that we had installed all over Australia. Our programmers and electronics guys were paid way much more than EMail considered proper. We wanted to take our products international "too hard", "too expensive and we don't understand your business and technology anyway" was the Boards response.

They sold that business and kept making whitegoods in outback NSW and an antique plant in Adelaide....until they went broke and were broken up.

The oil terminal automation business prospers to this day. At least half the service stations in australia still use similar stuff we made.

Diamond Key International "Mutual Success Through Teamwork With Customers" (http://www.diamondkey.com/index.html)


Sorry to digress but your Board sounds the same.


Email Limited was the largest company associated with the whitegoods industry in Australia. The company was responsible for production of items such as fridges, washing machines and dishwashers. Although Email Limited, Email Ltd Pty Ltd, and The Email Company Pty. Limited are still listed with the Australian Securities & Investments Commission, most of their manufacturing businesses have been taken over by other companies. In 2000 the Electrolux Group acquired the Major Appliances Business of Email Ltd; in January 2001 Smorgon Steel Group Ltd and OneSteel Ltd bought out many of Email's core businesses and in 2003 the Email Metering Group was sold to Intermoco Ltd.

[the_company_spy]

Sunfish, is it standard operating procedure for executive sociopaths to surround themselves with incompetent and compliant underlings?

[aveng]

He will never get rid of these flunkies, as every airline has these "pen men" lurking in the wings. They pen stuff off without any thought for the overall Airworthiness standards etc., and in so doing are well thought of (as good Company men) by the likes of Geoff and his polka dotted tie wearing lap dog (who did more than their share towards the downhill spiral).

I will never forget the look on the faces of the "good company men" when they were going to be "locked out" too. Priceless.

The Fedsec has a plan. EVERYONE stick to the plan. If not doing any o/t doesn't work, I'm sure he'll devise another plan. But you guys justifying working o/t to yourselves is letting down the majority..... yes Majority. STICK TOGETHER AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT - BEING COMPANY MINDED WON'T NECESSARILY SAVE YOU.

Here endeth the lesson.

[evertonliverpool]

Yes 3 sms went with the last redundancies in October,

[33 Disengage]

O/T SMSs to retirees, now that's something to get Grumpy about!

[Jethro Gibbs]

O/T SMSs to retirees, now that's something to get Grumpy about!

No Surprise the place is a bloody shambles

[Collando]

"ALAEA Fed Sec
"Will talk again about their plans at tomorrow's meetings."

Can you share that with other QF members not in Sydney?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Bit hard to explain it all on here for a number of reasons sorry. Main one being that anything I type here could be used against us in a court room.

[Collando]

Understand that, was meaning via another forum so all QF lames are informed.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Would love to get around to all ports and run meetings. Syd was the immediate one with Brad about to do another round at Avv. These guys are copping it in the neck now so we are pretty flat out working on court cases for them.

Will get to other ports before too long because what they want to do to Engineers impacts all of us.

[Collando]

Ok, thanks Steve.

[evertonliverpool]

Hi 33 you must have second sense, I have just had my bathroom renovated by GRUMPY bathrooms , great job , Grumpy management would do a better job than the Qantas jokers , and they had no KPI's

[Annulus Filler]

KPI - Killing People's Interest.

[Sunfish]

The Company Spy:

Sunfish, is it standard operating procedure for executive sociopaths to surround themselves with incompetent and compliant underlings?

Why yes it is. The Sociopaths fear anyone who is competent and a natural leader. They actively remove them as quickly as possible to avoid any possibility of being demonstrated to be wrong about anything.

The replacements are not only incompetent, they are Sociopaths as well, because only a Sociopath will work for a Sociopath if they have a choice in the matter. Ordinary people won't lick arse they way Sociopaths require.

How to spot a sociopath - 10 red flags that could save you from being swept under the influence of a charismatic nut job (http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html)

[nut turner]

Went to the meeting on Wednesday hopeful to hear how it was going, I was confident after listening to a member who went to the earlier meeting. I must say I was dissappointed, no real answers to questions and nothing to give me confidence we were moving forward.

The Fed Sec mentioned on this forum about cutting 380 numbers back to 24 and announcements next month but said nothing about it at the meeting.
There were vague references to the grand plan but nothing confirmed. If he has any information then he needs to share it.
If he wants to make comment on a public forum but wont back it up with facts then don't make them.

I was also dissappointed when several questions were raised but the Sec waffled around but gave no real answer.

He once again raised the fatigue issue as if it was a new issue, however he still hasn't answered my last question as why its taken the Association so long to bring this issue to a head. His lack of response is curious.
If he wants CASA to take peoples licences away or have Qantas discipline people, why now and not in 2009 when this issue was raised.


By the way I do support a great deal of what the Sec is doing, but don't start acting like a politician, answer the questions clearly and don't throw bombshells into the forum without backing it up.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Ask me some clear questions on here and I will give you some straight answers. Just be mindful that some questions cannot be answered clearly. Take this scenario for example which relates back to SHM closure. I can see this in a court room in 6 months.

Judge - My Purvinas when did you become aware that Qantas were going to outsource all line maintenance to AMSA?

Purvinas - We only found out last week.

Judge - But Qantas provided evidence that you knew about it 6 months earlier. They presented it from a website called Pprune. Did you post that?

Purvinas - Yes I did.

Judge - So why didn't you raise it with Qantas 6 months ago?

and hence a court case is lost. SHM case on consultation was lost as Raffaelli established that the ALAEA were aware of the closure some time earlier. If I haven't answered a question directly there is a reason and it has nothing to do with politics. If I can I will.

cheers

[Long Bay Mauler]

Is a shame the guys in the West are breaking their necks to do extra hours atm.

Of all the ports, they have been thru the wringer more than once in recent years, and know more than most about lack of support from fellow engineers.

Maybe they're just returning the support shown during the 8 hour dispute?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Good thinking. Pay each other back until nobody has a job left.

There was nothing the blokes in the East could do during the 8 hour battle to make any difference in the West. It was a battle we won in the court room.

People who are not supportive make their decisions for entirely different reasons.

[hewlett]

AMSA doing QF line maint (int)....... Could explain loss of customer work and movement of QF engineering to the domestic side of the business. Of course i'm assuming that was just a hypothetical example though.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Was completely hypothecial so don't read too much into it.

[buttmonkey1]

Perhaps it's time to bring back 'the voice' or whatever it is was called.
In the meantime one imagines scenes like these...
DR. SMITH VS. MAJOR WEST - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=J1orNVWMr2M)

[hannibal lector]

ALAEA Fed sec.,

When do you think full MOD will be incorporated in to Red Rat?

When can we expect a review of LMO?

Me thinks they have till EA expiry:ok:

[Workers Perspective]

Predict that EA9 is the last one the current Lames will see. :(

Contracts will be ushered in after 2014 EA expiry, especially with the Libs in power. :eek:

[The Black Panther]

Contracts will be ushered in after 2014 EA expiry, especially with the Libs in power.Yes WorkChoices will return, except in a bolder model due to the majority of power the Libs will have in the Lower House.

Don't expect the Redundancy conditions to remain same the same either. There will be a watery down of weeks/year of service in line with other industries. There won't be an argument of retrospection because those left received the correct entitlement at the time and those remaining have a job. This is the last wave of goodies while Julia is in charge.

[EWANQF]

I predict that Mxi is also going to be used as a performance management tool.Guys struggling to adapt to this change,will be managed out the door when it comes time to cull more numbers.Another stealth procedure that can't be argued against.You sign incorrectly,fail to do your timesheet,basically anything done incorrectly,is all there to be accessed by management.I am not complaining I mean we are getting paid for this technology change...are we not.(EA 9 , Grade/3%/Grade/3%)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

You get paid for technology changes such as MXI but they cannot be used for disciplinary purposes. EA already contains the only performance measuring tool they can use.

[ampclamp]

mxi. the productivity monitoring and destruction tool. what a dud.:yuk:

[lamem]

There will be some very disappointed engineers in the future who will fill the smoko rooms with "why didn't I take that redundancy last year when it was offered. I wanted another year or two and now I am getting less of a pay out".

[ampclamp]

it is my understanding lamem that even after an eba expires the conditions stand until a new agreement is signed off so a redundancy later regardless of a new govt should be under current eba conditions. I say 'should be' , not certain of course. But having said that, if anyone is thinking about it now would be a good time imho.

[Workers Perspective]

Considering the redundancies will feature on a yearly basis from now on, one may still have the chance to grab the loot prior to the libs changing conditions.

[Jet-A-One]

We don't have to sign off on a new EBA to have it forced upon us by FWA like last time. You can bet your left one that we'll lose conditions. If you want a golden handshake I'd be leaving now otherwise you may leave with a $hit sandwich after the Libs get in.

[One Eye Redundant]

That's right. All Joyce has to do is ground the fleet for a few days, costing the airline tens of millions of dollars, so FWA can rule on your new conditions and save him a few million. I'm sure that would make great business sense in his tiny brain.

[EWANQF]

Any feedback from last weeks meeting would be nice.......

[1me]

Any feedback from last weeks meeting would be nice.......

Perhaps your colleagues could enlighten you.. :rolleyes:

[Jet-A-One]

Why do you care EWANQF? I thought you had the "realistic attitude that Sydney is gone" ??? Don't worry mate it shouldn't reduce your OT. Prob increase it. You'll be right Jack!

[EWANQF]

Sorry that I don't work in the Centre if the engineering universe.Actually when the meeting was on I was on shift not in Syd.Feedback from a meeting would be what I would expect considering our reps dont know jack what is going on.Keep your meetings to yourself and the rest of the engineering ports will be fed rumours from pprune.Meanwhile up in Brissy Heavy the boys are merrily working the aircraft on O/T that your base wont.

[1me]

EWANQF:

I am actually surprised that you are the slightest bit interested in what happens away from Brisbane. Be that as it may...

There was nothing really new or earth shattering discussed. There was talk around data and how the company had arrived at their figures and the models they used. Talk around O/T and the people doing it. Talk around rostering and other mitigation strategies. Talk around the consultation process..

[Jet-A-One]

The Heavy Maint blokes can do what they like as far as I'm concerned, it's not their issue. No amount of OT in Hangar 3 is going to elleviate the pressure line management are under right now.

SYD might be the focus at the moment but the restructure will reach other ports soon. Most people out there know this and are not going out of their way to help them out. Instead, we are supporting the association as they attempt to save or mitigate as many job losses as possible. (Thanks for your support EWANQF :yuk:)

I think resisting changes in Line Maint that aren't in the best interest of members will ultimately make a diference and save some forced redundancies. Unfortunately for members in Heavy Maint these things tend to play out differently. QF can and will close these facilities overnight if history is a lesson.

[Jet-A-One]

ps. Do you type with your forehead EWANQF? Is the space bar that hard to use?

[EWANQF]

They are doing line maintenance overflow work.And there are 2 hangars up and running.So dont think that the heavy facilities are just for heavy maintenance work only.

[1me]

They are doing line maintenance overflow work.And there are 2 hangars up and running.So dont think that the heavy facilities are just for heavy maintenance work only.

You are enjoying this aren't you EWANQF?

[EWANQF]

Just telling you what you dont want to hear.Or,what you have not been told.

[1me]

You're all class EWANQF.. :yuk:

[EWANQF]

Info Noted.

[Talkwrench]

EWANQF said:

They are doing line maintenance overflow work.And there are 2 hangars up and running.So dont think that the heavy facilities are just for heavy maintenance work only.

...erm, you are actually quite wrong. The fact is BNE Base Maintenance is not doing any Line Maintenance work at all. Their plate is most certainly full with heavy checks, cabin refresh on 767 and other modification work.

I know this is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, so how about you preface your statements with "It is rumoured that..." rather than presenting falsehoods as fact.

[EWANQF]

Line aircraft have been positioned to Hgr 1 in Brissy Heavy to have work done that could have been done at Syd.That is fact.Not talking about cabin refreshes,C checks etc.Talk to the Bne line lames.

[Gas Bags]

Are you by chance still upset about Tamworth???

[JETTRONIC]

EWANQF.....I'm watching you.

[ampclamp]

Jettronic , don't waste your time.
Life is far too short to be concerned by agent provocateurs.
Until such time that anyone posts without the cloak of anonymity with verifiable facts it is just talk. Water off a ducks back.

[Bootstrap1]

The A380 maintenance work to LAX outsourcing co-ordinator has moved from his office in H96 to somewhere in Admin. It seems that he can't look his fellow colleagues in the eye anymore whilst he shafts them royally to better his own agenda.

It is a low act to go from championing your work area and talking it up to now trying to undermine and ruin the lives of the people that once held him in high regard.

[griffin one]

Bootstrap
There will always be people who perceive best intentions while they may not fully understand that they are assisting the demise of their own position.

The reason upper management use these individuals is because they themselves cannot effectively manage the change process.

The five year plan has started and we all will be the losers,some will be shown the door ,some will walk freely through it and some will kick the door down as they leave.

Hopefully when the dust settles we may welcome back skilled and experienced people back through it.

[EWANQF]

JETTRONIC,you need to stop watching me and concentrate on what you are doing at that time of the morning.

[AEROMEDIC]

Just to repeat myself.

This is a cyclic event and will pass (with pain) like a kidney stone.

Re-hiring WILL begin in 2-3 years when they realize that they have "lost " too many in the redundancy program.

Cop it sweet for now and park yourselves in a money earning job. If you don't want to return or you have discovered that there IS life after Qantas, then that's your good fortune.
The only downside I see in the process is that these tossers will claim that there is not enough qualified people around, and 457 visa's will materialize quickly.

Good luck to all.

[33 Disengage]

You are wrong AEROMEDIC, 457 visas will not be used to maintain QF aircraft.
457 visas don't exist in the Philippines!

[QF94]

AEROMEDIC

Just to repeat myself.

This is a cyclic event and will pass (with pain) like a kidney stone.

Re-hiring WILL begin in 2-3 years when they realize that they have "lost " too many in the redundancy program.

They won't be rehiring. Not the numbers they've lost. For every 747 that departs QANTAS for the last time, is a number of engineers they don't need anymore, as the aircraft are not being replaced. For every 767 that leaves QANTAS for the last time, is another lot of engineers they don't need anymore, as those aircraft are not being replaced.

This is a bit more than just another aviation cyclic event. This is not an up and down cycle of people flying or not flying. This is a downsizing of the airline by getting rid of aircraft and leaving an "excess" of engineers and other staff in their wake, justifying the powers that be to make people redundant.

Cop it sweet for now and park yourselves in a money earning job. If you don't want to return or you have discovered that there IS life after Qantas, then that's your good fortune.
The only downside I see in the process is that these tossers will claim that there is not enough qualified people around, and 457 visa's will materialize quickly.

Good luck to all.

Those that have decided to park themsleves in a money earning job have done so, but still await the farcical "negotiations" between the company and unions to come up with a decision as to what is happening and the numbers. The negotiations seem to be as long and miserable as the federal election campaign we have to put up with for the next six months. All talk and nothing to show for it.

Also AEROMEDIC, if this cycle is as cyclic as you say it is, why are we engineers being inundated with job opportunities outside of QANTAS by both the ALAEA and QANTAS?

It seems that the less being said by both sides, the worse the outcome is going to be for the ones who will cop it in the neck in the end.

[another superlame]

Interesting note in todays propoganda email from the dictator Nastysteyn.

He is banging on about the engagement survey but this bit got my attention.

“Provide adequate facilities to provide the world’s best maintenance”
The Engineering Facilities team are currently engaged in several large projects including:
§ Brisbane Heavy Maintenance - Hangar 2 Upgrade;
§ Perth Engineering and Ramp Facilities Upgrade;
§ Darwin Engineering Facilities Upgrade; and
§ Los Angeles Hangar Project.
§ There are several smaller projects across Sydney Jetbase and other ports to improve the facilities and work spaces for our employees.''

The Los Angeles hangar project. This is the first time I have seen or heard anything about it, apart from the rumours that have filtered back from guys who have visited the world of Chandra.

It would be nice for the slash and burn brigade to front the troops and tell us that this is going on. I know we have heard it as a rumour, but to hear them say that it is good for QE as a whole etc.

This bit is also great:


Over the past 12 months within Line Maintenance we’ve invested $2.3million in tooling, equipment and ground support equipment (GSE) with around $1.25 million in purchase orders pending. A further $1million has been spent in Base Maintenance.

Wow you have a fleet of over 150 aircraft and you invested $2.3 mil in tooling and GSE etc. Are we supposed to give him a high 5 or ridicule him because it is such a poor amount considering the amount invested in aircraft.

How about this Chris, invest in a new hangar complex in Sydney? This was to be part of SACLs revamp of the airport.

http://www.aspecthuntley.com.au/asxdata/20111205/pdf/01249577.pdf
This spells it out.

[AEROMEDIC]

QF94,

It's fair to say that this event is different in some ways to those of the past, but there are similarities.
In the early 80's, profit margins were squeezed badly in a downturn,so Qantas shed a number of engineers, mostly those with 707 licences that could not be deployed elsewhere. Things improved and a couple of years later and those happy to, came back and gained 747 licences to boot.
This repeated itself in the early 90's, with a slightly longer time for re-hiring, and again 2001/2002.
Each time re-hiring occurred when margins improved and capacity cranked up to meet the demand.
Nothing I've seen so far would sway me from believing that this cycle will not change.
Re-hiring is NOT just around the corner, rather, it is at least a few YEARS away and perhaps a little longer, but WILL happen.

The nature of re-hiring is to meet requirements of the time, not numbers made redundant. Historically, there have been many that have left the industry altogether, lost the passion and would never return.
Apprentices graduate and fill the natural attrition as well.

Those that have decided to park themsleves in a money earning job have done so, but still await the farcical "negotiations" between the company and unions to come up with a decision as to what is happening and the numbers. The negotiations seem to be as long and miserable as the federal election campaign we have to put up with for the next six months. All talk and nothing to show for it.

Also AEROMEDIC, if this cycle is as cyclic as you say it is, why are we engineers being inundated with job opportunities outside of QANTAS by both the ALAEA and QANTAS?


These two statements are contradictory. I would hope the second is true.

To make things clearer, the difference this time is that this is a downturn of margins, therefore less PROFIT, even though demand and capacity remain high.
Previously it was a great reduction of demand and therefore overcapacity that had to be reduced resulting in less PROFIT.

[What The]

another superlame,

You said "How about this Chris, invest in a new hangar complex in Sydney? This was to be part of SACLs revamp of the airport."

I have it on very good authority that a tender has been put out to build a 3 x A380 and 3 x 787 capacity hangar over in the space behind the fire station near 16L. The size of the project is enormous (400m x 200m).

I also learned that those ponds beside the road where you go under Southern Cross Drive towards the runway tunnels (behind the VW dealer and the school) are part of a sewage system and contain untreated turds. There is a natural flowing treatment system that takes crap from the city and eastern suburbs and naturally filters it through a series of ponds into Botany Bay.

Anyway, the client is QF and there is a sense of urgency about the project with expected completion of 2016.

The turd system, I'm going to net for mullet. ;)

[QF22]

It looks like things have gone under the " Cone of Silence"?

[Jethro Gibbs]

The Cone of Silence is locked down tight all the CR,s at Avalon barely even rated a peep even the local paper pretends they have not happened printing articles about all the jobs at Avalon :ugh:

[cvrurass]

CR mentioned at toolbox meeting. 30 mechanical LAME's, 10 structures still to go.

Rumor has it structures to go next week. D check structure rework nearly complete. LAME's to follow. CR's complete by 15 April.

[Jethro Gibbs]

More CR,s how will geelong advertiser spin that into more jobs at Avalon or will they just not report them at all as usual .

[AEROMEDIC]

How many will be left after the latest round and will there be enough to do the work?
I wonder what the ratio of 457 visa holders is now to pre VR/CR levels?

[Dunnocks]

LINE MAINTENANCE UPDATE – SYD LAME CONSULTATION UPDATE


On 21st February 2013 the ALAEA formalised their proposal for a forced leave program amongst LAMEs within Sydney LMO, as a proposed means of obviating compulsory redundancies. We consider that a forced leave program would not obviate the redundancies – it would only delay them.

Notwithstanding the differences of opinion on mitigation, at our meeting with the ALAEA today we agreed to implement a forced leave program for LAMEs in Sydney Line Maintenance.

Detailed information about this program will be provided in the near future.

At this stage we anticipate the forced leave program will commence in mid-April, with a view to leave slots being allocated and taken from 1st July 2013. As a result, the expression of interest for voluntary redundancy will cease in mid-April. We would encourage those who have applied for redeployment to continue this course of action.

I hope it has now provided you with some level of certainty as we go forward. What we all need to do now is focus on being the best at what we do and that is continuing to provide our customers with safe, reliable and efficient aircraft.


Gavin

[the_company_spy]

So the VR cash book closes April. Anyone who was holding out better put their hand up or else run the risk of missing out altogether.

[1me]

So we are now going to have a forced leave program even though the company believes it won't mitigate the "need' for redundancies? Why agree to something like that then? Looks like they'll get us to burn leave and then say "Nope that didn't work.. sorry.. Redundancies are now back on the table".

Yes that'll give the boys a degree of certainty! On you Gavin! :ugh:

[600ft-lb]

Regardless if the company is correct or incorrect in their assessment of this only delaying the inevitable, they get to save face in the case they are wrong and they get to save face in the case they are right. They also get to burn leave in case they are wrong. In that context it's a win-win or a win-win for the company.

And at least now for the rest of this year there won't be anyone getting tapped in Sydney.

[the_company_spy]

Correct 600, and the guys on the fringe or who knew they were gone have breathing space to look for a job.

[sani-com]

Um......how does delaying the prospect of getting a tap on the shoulder "...provide(d) you with some level of certainty..."?

[griffin one]

Burn your leave, write down the company debit due leave entitlements,then in October get tapped anyway and receive less or even nothing due liberal in power.

Win,Win,Win

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Think practical guys. Nobody in Syd will be pushed out the door. If it delays it your payout will be higher due to wage rises. More importantly it gives us time to secure new work. Two on the horizon are 330 reconfig or Ek contract.

On the other hand the ALAEA and Qf disagree on future manning to cover the existing work. I am tipping that they will be gravely understaffed as you take more leave than normal. This will drive large amounts of overtime and for those who think it is appropriate to retain leave as some sort of retirement booster why not just work some extra hours and put the money in the bank.

55 Lames will no longer be down centrelink because of it.

[the_company_spy]

Redundancy provision in the EA stands unless negotiated out. Start looking for alternate employment.

[bandit2]

Well done ALAEA! Hopefully through natural attrition etc there might be zero redundancies. Those people asked to take leave don`t F%^&(^NG whinge about it, you`re helping to save a mates job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[domo]

55 Lames will no longer be down centrelink because of it.


A good result fed sec and a lot better than we were looking at a few weeks ago, As one who was on the chopping block THANKS for your effort at pulling out all stops to retain employment for your members

[QF94]

I am tipping that they will be gravely understaffed as you take more leave than normal. This will drive large amounts of overtime and for those who think it is appropriate to retain leave as some sort of retirement booster why not just work some extra hours and put the money in the bank.

Wasn't this being stated earlier? Those who wanted to do O/T were being shot down for costing people their jobs. Now it's OK to do O/T, because there is no REAL positive outcome, other than a deferral of the inevitable.

Won't there be an excess of engineers as 747's and 767's go out the door?

Now we'll be forced to take leave when it's not really necessary, and an amount the company wants us to take to write off their books.

If this is a win for the engineers, then it is a hollow one.

[buttmonkey1]

Fedsec, can a redundant lame with a 2-300k handshake report to centrelink for benefits? just asking.

[1me]

Quote:
I am tipping that they will be gravely understaffed as you take more leave than normal. This will drive large amounts of overtime and for those who think it is appropriate to retain leave as some sort of retirement booster why not just work some extra hours and put the money in the bank.
Wasn't this being stated earlier? Those who wanted to do O/T were being shot down for costing people their jobs. Now it's OK to do O/T, because there is no REAL positive outcome, other than a deferral of the inevitable.

Have to agree with you there QF94.. I'm a little perplexed about this myself..


Now we'll be forced to take leave when it's not really necessary, and an amount the company wants us to take to write off their books.

I was thinking the same thing..

If this is a win for the engineers, then it is a hollow one.
So hollow the echoes are still reverberating.. Whilst Nasty Stain and his cohorts are still running the show I don't see how we can move forward and rebuild the business..

[Acute Instinct]

So hollow the echoes are still reverberating..

The only thing hollow being heard today is the predictables beating the gutless drum. Give it a break will you. There are people breathing a little easier tonight. Stick to what you know. The best part of this all is that you guys will be off holidaying for the next six months. Talk about lucky. Wish it was me. Rest well, go away, enjoy a life, and try to be positive. While your away, some young bloods may get a chance to make love to the boss. They may even shine in your shoes. Don't worry, Im sure he will remember your name in 8 months. Maybe not. Well done to the ALAEA for successfully negotiating continued employment.

KR747

[Workers Perspective]

A reprieve from the executioner is a positive outcome.
Congratulations to both the Company and the ALAEA for being reasonable.
Can only help in repairing the toxic relationship.

Might have to look at doing the QF engagement survey now....:}

[Bootstrap1]

Buttmonkey, the way it works with rolling up to centrelink and asking Aunty Julia for some cash is this:

Lets say you got a payout of 100k, and $75k is payment for being made redundant and $25k is the amount that your remaining leave(annual and long service) adds up to.

Lets say that the $25k leave component now works out to 18 weeks of leave.

Centrelink wont pay you any benefits until you have been out of employment for 18 weeks.

So even if you got a new job and then left that within the 18 weeks you would still have to wait out the original 18 weeks in total before payments are forthcoming.

The $75k redundancy component is of no interest to centrelink, only the leave component.

But if you are retiring then it is a whole different ball game.

One positive thing about the forced leave, your chances of staff travel are probably better now we can fly emirates. Chances are probably better for an upgrade as well, given that it is now status rather than years of service.

[Silverado]

One positive thing about the forced leave, your chances of staff travel are probably better now we can fly emirates. Chances are probably better for an upgrade as well, given that it is now status rather than years of service.

We have been able to travel on EK (in economy) for several years and it was based on order of check in. Status or years of service had nothing to do with it.

Having access to business class on EK (if your job role permits), might increase your chances though. As would the increased onload priority for QF group staff.

[QF94]

Having access to business class on EK (if your job role permits), might increase your chances though. As would the increased onload priority for QF group staff.

No dice there either. No upgrade to J class on EK. They don't give it to their staff, and there is no way QF staff will get an upgrade on EK services. So if you want J class, you'll have to fly QF services.

The only thing hollow being heard today is the predictables beating the gutless drum. Give it a break will you. There are people breathing a little easier tonight. Stick to what you know. The best part of this all is that you guys will be off holidaying for the next six months. Talk about lucky. Wish it was me. Rest well, go away, enjoy a life, and try to be positive. While your away, some young bloods may get a chance to make love to the boss. They may even shine in your shoes. Don't worry, Im sure he will remember your name in 8 months. Maybe not. Well done to the ALAEA for successfully negotiating continued employment.

KR747

Onya Acute Instinct!!

[ampclamp]

Fed Sec please clarify...
Who said doing excessive O/T was kosher? All I heard is that the O/T monitoring program had ceased.
Excess O/T still costs jobs.

[rtv]

Thank you Steve and the team , you guys have done a great job... Hey and don't listen to all the negative ****e , some folk have such sad lives . One part of me actually feels sorry for them .

[duderanch]

Qf 94 I've been waiting for them and I knew you'd have a go for being forced to take leave to save your mates job.
Anyone who even thinks twice about sitting at home whilst you are being paid to save 100 jobs is a very very shallow person indeed. Tonight is the first night since that phone hook up that I feel pretty relaxed and actually looking forward to going to work tomorrow, and there's QF94 sitting at home stressing that he has to spend time with his family on full pay. :ugh:

[EWANQF]

Give it a rest ampclamp.Dont you know Easter is one of the busiest periods of the year.I think you know which union was told to pull their head in.The management team read pprune and so do their legal reps.Also all you guys out there that made a choice,be it lifestyle,spend quality time with family,blah,blah,blah,hold your heads up high,as you now can smash the O/T........bunch of workplace hypocrites.

[LAME2]

Perhaps, the agreement to instigate a forced leave policy was dependant on the ALAEA putting aside their overtime monitoring. Perhaps the increase in family time at the expense of overtime was hurting QE more than we think. They wont see me in on overtime until we have security. As for their engagement survey, I determained some time ago anyone who starts the survey is automatically registered as engaged. Not quite what some people expect, but it makes for easier auditing.

[Ngineer]

Excess O/T still costs jobs.

I think ampclamp has made a very important point here. The last few years (and past few months especially) made that pretty clear.

In another 18 months (or sooner if the fleet deminishes) we will find ourselves in exactly the same spot if we are not careful.

[eshlon]

Well done fed sec! That should see a few dads a little more happier around the home with the kids. Good to see the ball in our court for the moment.

I reckon now would be a good time to have a meeting with your troops, to re-group, and do a bit of forward planning and start figuring out future moves. No doubt Nassenstein wil be back again after all that back log gets cleared.

Tread carefullly all - our livelihoods depend on it.

[1me]

Can someone please explain to me how a forced leave policy saves jobs? If it does that's great! I'm not trying to start an argument, merely trying to understand the mechanism.

Is this a short term fix to buy us a few months breathing space before this all starts up again especially given that from Gavin's email the company don't believe that this will obviate the requirement for redundancies? Or is it really something to be celebrated?

And Acute Instinct if you read the next sentence you would understand the context of my statement.

[Workers Perspective]

Think of it like this.

Forced leave will reduce the numbers on the workfront at any given time. This will help the company gauge if the work is getting cleared and if their reduction in the number of employees is accurate.

The ALAEA is saying that the culling numbers are excessive and the work will not be getting done with the reduced available manpower and therefore hoping that management may change their outlook and save jobs.

Don't forget that the operation depends on overtime.

Due to the fact that people have regulated their overtime recently, it is hoped that it may have shown the management that they really do need more people than less.

[Silverado]

No dice there either. No upgrade to J class on EK. They don't give it to their staff, and there is no way QF staff will get an upgrade on EK services. So if you want J class, you'll have to fly QF services.


You might want to read the email Message from Alan Joyce - Staff Travel on Emirates

Also, from the staff travel website It will take effect from 2 April 2013

[1me]

Ok that makes sense. Thanks Workers Perspective. :ok:

[Jet-A-One]

Forced annual leave is one thing but forced long service leave (and the reduced pay rates that come with it) is not something that I am happy about.

I've been more than happy to tow the line by not working any OT for the last 4 months but if I'm forced on to 30% less pay for any sustained period we are simply not going to have enough money to pay the bills.

I've always used up my annual leave to relieve the fatigue of shift work and spend time with my young family hence I don't have much saved up at all. Any leave forced on me would have to be long service.

Nobody should be forced to take long service until EVERYONE'S annual and DILs have been used up!

[ampclamp]

I don't think you can be forced to take any leave other than annual leave afaik.

[Jet-A-One]

I hope so!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

In NSW the company can direct you to take LSL or Annual leave.

Other option is they can sack 55 LAMEs.

[33 Disengage]

65 LAMEs were going to be forced out the gate in the next month or so. They can now continue their careers for the next year, minimum. This gives a bit of breathing space to deal with what is over the horizon for probably the vast majority of QF LAMEs (and the huge no's of managers employed "lead" them) if Mr Nasty stays around.

It's a sad state for the few who are whinging and moaning about being "forced" to take a couple of blocks of leave so as to save 65 jobs. Greedy F@*ks!!! If you don't like it you have a couple of weeks to put your hand up for VR. Good riddance!!!

Good work Steve. Dealt with a sh!t sandwich, you have made it somewhat digestable.

Looks like the ALAEA has once again done the leg work for the AME unions. Instead of engaging with the company on behalf of their members, the AME reps had their snouts in the trough. Only interested in themselves. Poor leadership from the top of their union right down to the reps on the floor!!!

[Jet-A-One]

So are you going to make people take a pay cut while there's still others with a heap of annual saved up?

At least get the proposed forced leave policy out there before they close VR. In fact I don't understand why the VR shouldn't stay open the whole time.

Is there any way to forfeit your LSL rather than take a pay cut?

[Jet-A-One]

I couldn't give a f#ck about forced leave its the pay cut I can't handle! I'm not a greedy f#ck! I refrained from OT and watched 380 blokes hook in like it was Christmas!

I'm not someone that lives beyond their means relying on OT. But without shift penalties I'm screwed.

The first expense I'll be cutting will be my union fees. An extra $30 a fortnight would be very handy after a 30% pay cut.

GGF!

[ampclamp]

My view is that VR should be an ongoing process say offered twice yearly for a month or two (evolution not revolution) also as an incentive for older guys with a lifetime of service to leave 1 to 2 years earlier than they planned and not be out of pocket with earnings.
But not sure how that works with super.

I am sure any forced leave program will start with those with the most annuals and longest period since they took some. That alone will takes ages to work through.

[duderanch]

Jet A 1 :{ :{ :{ if you are that hopeless with your finances then maybe you could do 1 shift of O/T to cover your losses. Are you that stupid and short sighted. Lucky maths wasn't a basic exam or you'd still be an ame.
Bring out the violins for these poor people, my heart is bleeding. Damn those 65 LAMEs. They should dragged out the door immediately, there lives upheaved, just so Jet A1 doesn't have to lose a few hundred dollars. I hope your not passing on your morals to your 'young family'.

[Jet-A-One]

I am one of the 65 f#ckwit!

Just get the proposed forced leave policy out before they close VR.

I find it very hard to believe the majority support forced LSL. This should go to a vote.

[duderanch]

No way. You just didn't say you were one of the 65 facing a $100,000+ a year pay cut now sooking because you're facing a $800 pay cut. Oh that has made my day. Is there really people out there who could possibly think like this. I can't stop laughing, thank you Jet A1.

[Jet-A-One]

PM me and I'd be happy to explain my situation further with you face to face if you'd like duderanch.

[duderanch]

Sorry too busy laughing.

[Jet-A-One]

Laughing and putting sh!t on people with complete anonymity.

Don't assume you know other people's situation.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Jet A One nobody will be forced to take a pay cut. The worst case scenario for you apart from losing your job would be that you keep your job and may have to take 4 weeks LSL. The company can do that anyway. I have written a notice that will come out today explaining it in as much detail as we know.

Maybe though we can take a look at reality. I am tipping (yes this is an assumption) that Qantas will need a lot of overtime because they will have more people on leave. I say this because even today they need more labour to get through the workload than they have. You can cover the loss of shift penalties by working one or two shifts extra a year (remember the LSL itself will hand you at least 8 shifts off).

If you are worried about loss of the LSL itself, work 4 more double time shifts and you have put the same money in the bank and are still two days better off. Add to that the fact that you will be employed for at least one more year and will add four weeks pay to any redundancy payout at a higher rate and I cannot see how you could be worse off.

[duderanch]

Lets get this thread back on track 'advice required'

Can someone please help me, I am faced with losing $100,000 + a year or for 2 weeks in that year I face losing maybe $800. I need to know now because if I am going lose $800 I will have to consider the $100,000+ loss option. Can somone please help ?

[Jet-A-One]

Thanks for the info Fed Sec. A notice with a bit more detail will be good.

It's just my opinion that forced annual should come before forced LSL.

[Tidbinbilla]

If you people want this thread to stay open, STOP the personal attacks!!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It's just my opinion that forced annual should come before forced LSL.

Yes it will. The option is up to the individual what type of leave they will take.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

ALAEA Representatives metwith Qantas managers yesterday and we were advised that Compulsory Redundanciesfor LAMEs in Line Maintenance Sydney related to the announcement from Novemberlast year will not occur as planned by the company. Instead the company willimplement a forced leave program designed to deliver the company the manpowerthey consider necessary to acquit future work. Although leave programs havepreviously been used by Qantas in Flight Ops, this is a first for Engineering.We welcomed the decision; particularly considering the complexities aroundlicence coverage that this program will create.

As news spread we were contacted by many members whoexpressed relief that their jobs were secure for now. Others contacting ussought more detail about the leave program and how it would work with somemembers initially concerned that some of their leave would have to be used in away they had not planned. The reality of what we have collectively faced sinceNovember is that Qantas want to run their business with 450 less Engineers. Aleave program in Heavy Maintenance is not beneficial because all of theemployees from a closing hangar would have to take all their leave until itruns out and then be made redundant as there is no work to return to. In LineMaintenance this is different as work is ongoing. The forced leave option meansthat about fifty LAMEs who would have otherwise had no job will be able to feedtheir families for some time longer. AMEs have also been offered thisjob-saving mechanism but it is currently being blocked by the other unions.

Qantas will provide full details on the leave option nextweek. The key aspects are –


VR in Sydney will remain open for several more weeks and then close. It is possible that it may be several years before this opportunity is open in Sydney again.
Transfers to other ports will also be available for several more weeks and then close.
When all VR’s and transfers are known, a final calculation will be made by the airline to determine how overstaffed they consider the airline to be in Sydney.
We estimate the final number will be around 50 LAME positions which could be covered by remaining staff taking about 4 weeks additional leave each year.
In May this year several weeks will be set aside for all Sydney LAMEs to apply for all their leave for the next 12 months.
In early June LAMEs will be advised if their leave has been accepted, preference will go to those who have applied for longer continuous periods of leave.
The required shortfall will be allocated by Qantas as per operational requirements. LAMEs will have the choice of taking Long Service Leave or Annual leave.
The process will repeat the following year however Qantas have reserved their right to withdraw from the program at any time. The ALAEA reserves our right to legally challenge any improper withdrawal.

Although this option savesjobs today, the future is as uncertain as it ever has been. Qantas havecontinually advised us that this may just delay redundancies for 12 months.With current average leave balances well over 6 months per employee it is hardto see how this leave could be exhausted in one year. We do however see this asan opportunity for the ALAEA to work with the airline to identify and bring inadditional work to secure long term employment for members. Some of the knownpossibilities include Atlas and Qantas freighters, A330 reconfigurations,A330’s returning from Jetstar, 787 arrivals and Emirates overflow A380 work.
We understand that some discussion around the workplace hasled to the perception that forced leave may eat into the potential payouts ofLAMEs should a day come when they are made redundant. Some members feel thatthis leave is like a savings fund or additional buffer. Such thoughts may cometo mind, particularly when dealing with uncertainty, however a simpleexplanation can demonstrate that this is not the case.

Any LAME at Qantas today who has 4 weeks leave that theyare forced to take in order to postpone a redundancy by 12 months will gain anadditional 1 year of service. Should they be made redundant at that point theadditional year of service adds 4 weeks to the base redundancy payment. If the4 weeks leave is paid on retirement as annual leave, shift penalties would beadded but the payment is taxed at the marginal rate. The 4 weeks baseredundancy pay that you would otherwise receive is paid at a greatly reducedredundancy tax rate. The net result of the forced leave program on yourultimate payout is about the same in dollar terms compared to those who wish tostore leave. The forced leave path will add the benefit of actually taking theleave whilst saving the jobs of others.

When this idea was first raised by the ALAEA committee itwas met with stiff resistance from Qantas. Management stated that “this isabout getting rid of heads from the business”. We appreciate the acceptance bymanagement of a concept that fell outside their initial brief and hope itsignals the commencement of a new period of co-operation between the parties.

More importantly has been the overwhelming support frommembers. We understand that some of you doubt a path that we may take at times.Some choose to do the opposite of what is required to achieve what we considerto be a fair outcome. Others constantly question actions that need to be takenor talk about change as if it is a foregone conclusion. The continued unity ofa vast majority of members has saved the jobs of many. We thank you for thatsupport and trust that a happier Easter will be enjoyed by all.

STEVE PURVINAS Federal Secretary

PAUL COUSINS Federal President

WAYNE VASTA Assistant Federal Secretary

[The Black Panther]

"In particular, the ACCC does not accept or rely on the claim that Qantas International is in “terminal decline” and unable to compete effectively or operate profitably absent the alliance.”ACCC approves Qantas, Emirates alliance | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2013/3/27/aviation/accc-approves-qantas-emirates-alliance)

No, like everyone else including the coalface workers, we know Qantas has been raped and pillaged to support and setup of JetStar. it's all very well for a business to have a new venture but transparency and facts should be mandatory. In my opinion the CEO has used subjective manipulation of the books to cover up these facts. Jetstar has been suckling off the mother's teat and will never repay the debt.(becaus eteh debt will never be disclosed). Just as Mr Dixon's bonus, based on a successful takeover was NOT a bribe, so is the case Qantas NEVER supported Jetstar to any undisclosed extent. If ALL expenses were apportioned fairly you would see a completely different situation in the financial reports but resources, capital, a weak regulatory and an unethical attitude by this management will ensure the truth is NEVER revealed. (Else we couldn't send +200 engineers out the door)

[ampclamp]

Thanks to you and those who ran and supported the campaign. Also thanks for the explanation of how it will work. :ok:

The glimmer of hope that there maybe a new spirit of co-operation I found incredibly refreshing. I doubt they will fulfill this but we can only hope.

[1me]

Fed Sec
Thanks to you and those who ran and supported the campaign. Also thanks for the explanation of how it will work.

The glimmer of hope that there maybe a new spirit of co-operation I found incredibly refreshing. I doubt they will fulfill this but we can only hope.

+1.. I was somewhat sceptical about the forced leave thing but having read some explanations on the concept I am happy that the blokes can breathe a bit easier.

Thanks Steve and the ALAEA team for all the hard work and mindless dribble you have had the "pleasure" of being subjected to on our behalf.

[ampclamp]

I think the brass have under estimated how quickly the back log of work has built up and the effect Mxi has had on the time it takes to do things now particularly in a line environment.
That and the continuing efforts to make Q a 145 organisation .
Keeping the staff onside and happy one would think was a priority at this critical time.

[QF94]

If you people want this thread to stay open, STOP the personal attacks!!

Tidbinbilla, I agree. Unfortunately, there are those on here that are of the belief that if you have a differing opinion or view, you shouldn't be expressing them, or run the risk of being personally attacked. A QF way unfortunately.

[Silverado]

its the pay cut I can't handle!

What pay cut?

The terms and conditions of your employment are being adhered to. The LSL conditions have not changed.

I would suggest you/we have a few options to consider.


Raise LSL at next EA discussions
Take VR
Take a redeployment to another port
Or
Submit your leave forms this coming May, to use you ASL/LSL/DILPH/20TH as you would prefer, or let the company decide for you

[Clipped]

BP

Are you implying the rape and pillaging of this airline stopped with the exits of Jackson and Dixon?

No chance. The current Executive are doing just fine and all perfectly legal. Have a read here (http://www.smh.com.au/business/companies-use-loopholes-to-buy-shares-20130326-2gs91.html#ixzz2Oi92SLWw).

Makes for a feel good story, Exec and Board, working only for the benefit of the airline and shareholders. Coalface, worrying about their job prospects.

[the_company_spy]

So best advice to AMEs would be harass your reps and AWU head office, you ate still looking at redundancys. Ask the question, why are we not following the ALAEAs lead? You need to get more vocal because as it stands now you are still going to suffer redundancys, and soon.

[ampclamp]

I think the spy is right. Easy soft targets. :(

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Makes it hard when the cashed up AWU rep runs around telling people that he doesn't care, it is the upskillers who will go first.

[Redstone]

AWU seem to spend more time and energy against their members interests.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Lay off the AWU guys. Their officals have their time cut out trying to get a seat in canberra. No time to worry about pesky members..... especially those in aviation.

[Ngineer]

4 weeks forced LSL!!!!!!

Great snapping duck$hit... wont know what to do with myself!!! Bout bloody time we got some leave approved. Now I can get some stuff done on my bucket list.

Hopefully this may be a start to better relationships between the workers and the management.

[QF94]

@duderanch

Tonight is the first night since that phone hook up that I feel pretty relaxed and actually looking forward to going to work tomorrow, and there's QF94 sitting at home stressing that he has to spend time with his family on full pay. :ugh:

It's a sad state that you have to take leave to spend time with the family. Can't do it on days off or before/after work? Must be hard finding the time on four/five days off or even a weekend to spend time at home.

[JETTRONIC]

Thanks again to you Steve and the ALAEA team in getting a good result out of sh*t sandwich.

Already got my first phone call for O/T today but had to turn it down.....seems I'm enjoying having this time off to much:ok:

[SpannerTwister]

Is every LAME going to have to take 4 weeks of some sort of leave ?

How will this work if you have less than 4 weeks of annual leave available, will they make you go into negative annual leave hours ?

If you have no annual leave and they are not going to make you go negative for your annual leave how does that work for your LSL if you have under 7 years of service?

You cannot currently access your LSL as you have under 7 years service, will they still be able to make you take 4 weeks LSL ?

ST

[Redstone]

Are there any lames in Sydney with less than 7 yrs service? If you have no annual, lsl it is.

[AEROMEDIC]

It has taken a concerted effort of SOME to bring about an agreement by Qantas with the ALAEA to provide some respite from the redundancies.
It's disturbing to find that the Qantas managers had to be pressured to understand that they have overdone this culling of the engineers.
What is even more disturbing is that there were many so unconcerned about the plight of their workmates that they felt that they need not participate in any strategy to assist them. That being said, it's gratifying to see that there has been an improvement in the position of those affected.

What now?

Those that decided to look after their own interests may well have thought any strategy was not going work and they might as well milk the OT, but such things are not forgotten by others who didn't.

Hopefully. the leave solution will be enough, but this is far from being over. I'm sure the Fed sec knows this and will be working to secure a better outcome down the track.

Nice to see some happier posts.:ok:

[QF94]

@ SpannerTwister

Is every LAME going to have to take 4 weeks of some sort of leave ?

How will this work if you have less than 4 weeks of annual leave available, will they make you go into negative annual leave hours ?

Your A/L leave is broken up in two parts. Entitled and Accrued. Entitled is leave from your previous years, and Accrued is the current year's leave building up (from your date of joining the company). If you don't have the leave, you're considered a good boy for using your leave as you get it, and you can't be forced to take leave you don't have.

If you have no annual leave and they are not going to make you go negative for your annual leave how does that work for your LSL if you have under 7 years of service?

You cannot currently access your LSL as you have under 7 years service, will they still be able to make you take 4 weeks LSL ?

I don't believe they can make you take Accrued LSL, as you're not entitled to it before 10 years, with the exception of a redundancy, but knowing this mob, they would find a way to make it happen. I would assume you're safe till you have the required leave to be forced to take any.

@ AEROMEDIC
Those that decided to look after their own interests may well have thought any strategy was not going work and they might as well milk the OT, but such things are not forgotten by others who didn't.

Hopefully. the leave solution will be enough, but this is far from being over. I'm sure the Fed sec knows this and will be working to secure a better outcome down the track.

First point. Whether it's forgotten or not is a moot point. People can remember you on the other side of the fence when we're all out of a job. Will it make any difference? Not one iota.

Second point. You're correct this is far from over. It appears that both Company and Association agree this is only a reprieve, not a solution. More of the same, if not worse, over the next 12 to 18 months.

[Romulus]

Lay off the AWU guys. Their officals have their time cut out trying to get a seat in canberra. No time to worry about pesky members

especially those that have names like Jim Smith, John Smith, A Smith, B Smith etc who make up the numbers to give the AWU the power within the ACTU and ALP that it enjoys...

[Acute Instinct]

With the onset of our future living being cut, I will try and make whatever $$$ I can in the meantime. You can try and justify cutting your nose off to spite your face. That's your choice. You'll be walking out the gate with your nose in your hand, and nothing to show for it. I'll just be walking out with a few more $$$ in my pocket.
First point. Whether it's forgotten or not is a moot point. People can remember you on the other side of the fence when we're all out of a job. Will it make any difference? Not one iota.

No alias, no personal attacks, no differing views, nothing. Just your words.

[QF94]

What AI? No black sheep comments? My you've changed. Not that your past comments meant anything. To me anyway.

Yes my words. I stood by them then and stand by them now.

[AEROMEDIC]

First point. Whether it's forgotten or not is a moot point. People can remember you on the other side of the fence when we're all out of a job. Will it make any difference? Not one iota.

Second point. You're correct this is far from over. It appears that both Company and Association agree this is only a reprieve, not a solution. More of the same, if not worse, over the next 12 to 18 months.

In this kind of scenario, the event slowly fades, but there are those that wil find it difficult working with those who have not only been self interested but also have worked against them. I've seen friendships of years dissolve and some never speak again ,changing relationships forever.

There is a null point to be reached for redundancies though, and where that point is must be reliant on whether further agreements can be made. The one unknown is the ability of Qantas managers to seek solutions on their own rather than the ALAEA do it. That's why it's far from over.

[Annulus Filler]

When was that disengagement survey due? Doh.

[King William III]

When was that disengagement survey due? Doh.

LOL, couldn't help but laugh at nasty stain's pathetic attempt to hoodwink us into completing the damn thing by claiming that it's not true that filling it out means we're engaged……

Nice try tulip-boy, there'll be no engagement until you're gone!!

Personally, I'm deleting that spam-mail every time it appears…..

[Jetsbest]

I used the link on the survey to ask Towers Watson directly about completion or otherwise indicating engagement or otherwise, pointing out that many staff felt that the company would manipulate a higher "engagement" score from either employee action. I even queried management bonuses linked to completion rates.

Their response was emphatic:
- non-participation could not be construed as engagement, and
- some aspects of bonuses were linked to engagement score but not survey completion rates, with a caveat that some individual manager KPIs may have been individually agreed and may contain 'participation rate' clauses.

Just saying. :\

[600ft-lb]

I think this thread has run its course.

[Jethro Gibbs]

And then late monday night along comes minister albo and chucks another spanner in the works :ugh

[Acute Instinct]

I think its a pretty safe bet this thread is running on borrowed time. So I shall make this my last post regardless of replies.
It has been fun, its been harrowing, and its been downright repulsive at times.
My final rhyme and reason with all fairness to those that work at SIT.
Keep your gates locked. Guard them, as they will do anything, (even masquerade on here as one of you), just to get back over there........

Until next time,

KR748

[Bagus]

Albanese now supporting Joyce ,must be the freebies in Dubai

[KrispyKreme]

Can someone explain to me how the leave burn program all of a sudden saved jobs? I would like to understand the financials etc behind this?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I can in simple terms.

Say a company has 12 employees and wants to get rid of one. Another option is that they all stay and take one month leave extra a year. It supplies the same amount of hours in labour.

At QF, the Engineering employees have tonnes of leave stored up. You can multiply the above scenario 50 or so times to cover the 50 who would be made redundant. Their demise is covered by everyone (about 600) taking that extra leave.

Exact numbers not known yet but will be calculated exactly by the parties.

[Romulus]

Furthermore it reduces liabilities on the balance sheet. Companies must accrue the cost of leave owed, so if I owe you 12 weeks leave and you get paid $2K a week then I have an accrued debt of $24K.

By having you take that leave I also reduce the debt.

Bear in mind that debt also grows in line with wages/salaries. If your salary goes up the accrued leave value goes up by the same amount.

[Tidbinbilla]

This thread has run its course.