Qantas Engineering redundances - Advice required!!!

[qantastrike]

Heard it was one crew in Perth who decided THEY have had enough of being overworked and it's having more of an effect than the company wants to admit.
Well done to the crew who have obviously chosen to spend time with their families and not be threatened into working excessive amounts of overtime!
Maybe the other Perth crews will start getting a taste for living life soon also. We
might soon all have LOTS of time on our hands! Including our Perth brothers.....

[2days2nites]

This whole business of relying of ridiculous amounts of overtime to accomplish the workload makes a joke of Nassensteins memo 3 months ago.
Then he said "We just can't afford to keep people in the business when the work is not there to be performed".
It is now obvious he was way out of touch saying that.
Then Gavin announced the need to get rid of 204 positions in Sydney.
So 3 months down the track people are still sweating in bed at night waiting for their final decisions of who is being made redundant.
After 3 frigging months of this, are they just incompetent or getting some wierd enjoyment out of the whole process.
Either way, whoever is running the business should show them the door, and don't wait 3 months to do it.

[33 Disengage]

I heard some managers joking to themselves, something along the lines of "we'll show them how to do a slow bake".

[Annulus Filler]

Qantas Engineering, Sydney Apprentices finishing their time, were phone interviewed yesterday and given a job as AME's. Correct me if I am wrong, weren't AME's included in the 204 redundancy numbers, so what the hell are they doing rehiring?

[legacy LAME]

I am amazed that the company hasn't gone to FWA citing that
We are conducting " unprotected industrial action " buy not working
Overtime.
Maybe because FWA would laugh at them for retrenching their staff
then crying because the work isn't getting done. All those cutbacks are coming back to bite.

As far as bake them slowly, bring it on!!!!!! The longer you bake us, the further behind your maintenance schedule slides. So Who's baking who?
Reality is that this is just a taste of what to expect when you retrench 30 %
of your staff, even if they do work heaps of overtime. So get used to it chris.

For years managers have blamed the staff for all that goes wrong, truth is your business is a mess due to your own stupidity. Under the current management QANTAS has slipped to # 13 in the safest airline rankings.
Nice going Al and co

No money in freight
777,s are old technology
Lean sigma
Maintnex
A380
The list goes on

[Jethro Gibbs]

Now staff at Avalon can,t even get VR what a debacle this is .:ugh::mad:

[Clipped]

33

I heard some managers joking to themselves, something along the lines of "we'll show them how to do a slow bake".

Every Qantas LAME needs to recite this snickering when, on the job, they feel they are approaching the limit of their usual duties.

" We'll show them how to do a slow bake ".

No prob, Nasty, Gavin and Co.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just a couple of updates from around the traps today guys. We have been advised that the number of hold items on 738 aircraft has increased from 200 to 400 in the previous month. Unfortunately Qantas won't be able to sack as many people if this situation continues. Make your decisions accordingly.

[KING GEORGE II]

Fed Sec, for most people in club pineapple, that is music to their ears.:D

[diwai]

Hey, Fed Sec, what are the holds on the 330's ??????:confused::confused::confused:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Not sure about 330 mate. Hold items are a KPI that the hatchet man needs to meet. I wouldn't be helping him, he was employed to destroy your life.

[going down-under]

Can't ALAEA go to FWA and report the pressure put on (L)AMEs to do O/T?

just my thoughts

[Bagus]

Fixed term contractors in Bne given a start date.

[boeingsgoing]

What's the start date??

[Cassey jones]

How many are Lame's working as ame's

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Can't ALAEA go to FWA and report the pressure put on (L)AMEs to do O/T?

The company can call you as much as they like.

You can answer the calls or choose to ignore them. You do have a choice.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Fixed terms in BNE the $ are crap they wont get the numbers .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Fixed terms in BNE the $ are crap they wont get the numbers .

As you know this is intentional. Suggest people get on to their AME unions in an attempt to find out why these AME jobs are being outsourced to contractors. Good luck if you can find them.

Another article on avalon in todays geelong advertiser be good if union chiefs as stated in article informed members before they read it in the paper .

Does it really matter if you hear about something first, it won't make any difference to the outcome. Don't be so precious.

[legacy LAME]

Heard a rumor today that the company thinks we are pulling
the wool over their eyes and are making the OPS managers work
weekend and night shifts to keep an eye on us.
Brilliant. Do it . I welcome it. I am even going to predict what will happen.
Ya wanna hear?
They will send there yes men down who will be too scared for their jobs
to report what is really happening .
They will report that we are on a go slow / snagging things that don't need to be done or are working to rule.
Truth is we are dealing with the BS that has been implemented by frauds who
make wild claims on how to save money but hurt the business BIG TIME.
The ultimate in spend a pound to save a penny.
The reality is that we bend there rules to get there flogged out pieces of crap
Ready to fly in the morning.
Well I am going to throw the challenge out to management.
Your OPS managers are only going to tell you what you want to hear.
Have some balls nappy stain and come and see for yourself.
Do a couple of full blocks. Come for an engine change under MXI and stay all
night, don't skive off with the excuse of meetings and the like. Deal with CAMEO reciepts , no parts, no license coverage and not enough people in your crew to even do a tow. In fact bring your Irish mate with you so he can see as well.
While you are at it get a tow safe card so you can be of some use
But you won't will you. Your KPI,s rely on the person upstream from you believing your lies , and he wants to hear them becease his KPI,s rely on you lying. Easier to just find a bucket full of sand eh
So go to your meetings, blame your staff, and somehow global warming will be our fault.
Yeah bake me slowly.


Qantas #13 on safest airline list
No money in freight.
777,s are old technology
Lean sigma
Maintnex
A380,s

[Bumpfoh]

Well said legacy!

[empire4]

I had a QF HR woman from BNE ringing my mothers home number begging me to take the fixed term job! Haha.......Tell her she's dreaming. I'd rather work at ALDI, more pay too.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

It's the blundstone boots scenario..... offer terms and conditions that are completely inadequate, thus attracting little to no interest. You can then, as an Aussie icon, publicly declare that you must offshore because Australians do not want to work for you.

[duderanch]

24 hr Ops managers. Phew ! the airlines saved.
I can now go to sleep at night knowing that if I lose my dry cleaning card at 1 am, someone can sign my forms. What a relief.

[Bagus]

Fixed term contractor Bne,qf paying 3 levels higher than entry level of AME,approved by AWU unions but still ****,some will go but not for long mostly from JHAS and Avalon

[boeingsgoing]

Shocking. Although I don't support the use of contractors, especially when the company is reducing the numbers elsewhere, if you do use contractors then you have to pay contractors wages.

Another way for someone to meet a KPI. Use contractors but on permenant staff ways rates. Someone had a bonus for that decision.

They will get the numbers in my opinion. With so many people out of work a small wage is always better than no wage.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Fixed term contractor Bne,qf paying 3 levels higher than entry level of
AME,approved by AWU unions but still ****,some will go but not for long mostly
from JHAS and Avalon

Not paying enough to even cover the cost of accommodation let alone other costs for a short term.
Also Avalon staff can,t even get a VR at this time its all still up in air .

[Jethro Gibbs]

It's the blundstone boots scenario..... offer terms and conditions that are
completely inadequate, thus attracting little to no interest. You can then, as
an Aussie icon, publicly declare that you must offshore because Australians do
not want to work for you.

Spot on thats been the plan from the start of this debacle and they put on new HR staff to do it .

[Jethro Gibbs]

They will get the numbers in my opinion. With so many people out of work a
small wage is always better than no wage

The only ones they will get are people who currently live in Brisbane close to the airport and thats going to limit the numbers they get .

[Jet-A-One]

So the Ops Managers are coming in on night shift. That's a real vote of confidence to the Duty Maintenance Managers! I wonder if the DMMs that were putting sh!t on the blokes for not working on their days off will change their tune now?

[Bagus]

Quote:

They will get the numbers in my opinion. With so many people out of work a
small wage is always better than no wage

There are many who came on 457 visa who just got their residency out of work now will take the offer and hoping they wil become permanent one day.

[boeingsgoing]

Quote:

There are many who came on 457 visa who just got their residency out of work now will take the offer and hoping they wil become permanent one day.

Yes. Shared accommodation etc. Not sure of the numbers they want but I'm sure they will fill the spots

[Bagus]

Sydney HM shut,Tullamarine HM shut ,AVV HM to shut ,Bne HM ?,now maybe WA gov to give tax break to QF if they shift their maintenance there.

[Ngineer]

Shocking. Although I don't support the use of contractors, especially when the company is reducing the numbers elsewhere, if you do use contractors then you have to pay contractors wages.


I hope they are not expecting those made redundant to apply. From what I am hearing from the guys on the floor, many are currently retraining themselves for jobs outside of the airline industry. Particularly in the mining industry. Many are not going around telling too many people for obvious reasons.

I don't blame them so draw your own conclusions if this is a good idea. But for many it is a case of "once bitten twice shy". Especially those gentlemen who are very worried at the moment about their future. So spare a thought for those poor fellows and put yourself in their shoes (for those of you that have the capacity to do so).

Either way it looks like a very cronic shortage of skilled labor in our industry maybe upon us in no time. Good luck finding the right people for the jobs.

[Syd eng]

Guys, do as what was just posted previously. Look at what outside needs and get the skills required. Great jobs with Great employers out there. Money almost as good too, with no shift work. Weekend life is great. I may have been a rat leaving a sinking ship but I am glad to leave on my terms.

No longer a Syd Eng.

[qf 1]

meet up for Drinks last night with ex Sydney HM people,of all the people that left in 2006 not one has any regrets leaving Qantas,all where much happier in their home and work lives,and all said that they would never go back to that acidic work environment of Qantas.When one door closes another opens,coupled with your experiences as aircraft workers you will most likely end up in a much better place.:ok:

[The Black Panther]

Qantas gift keeps giving, Cathay Pacific adds London flights | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/02/07/qantas-gift-keeps-giving-cathay-pacific-adds-london-flights/)

This leadership team has by far inflicted the most damage to Qantas. The international fleet is ageing while efforts to improve market share result in situations like the above article.

While the rest of Australian business realise the importance of working WITH Asia this team of failures (ToF) try to slip under them or against them. Remember the rhetoric by the ToF a few years ago, now we have left Deathstar to dominate the Asian Aviation market and what a successful play that is proving to be.

The murmuring in the media and by travelers is Dubai is too far away as a hub. Singapore and the surrounding Asian nations are where Australian and doing business and choosing as holiday destinations over the Middle East. A very simple test, what image comes to mind when you think of the Middle East, now what image comes to mind when you think of Singapore. I'll tell you mine, war and tall buildings. You can place them where you think they fit.

Domestically the ToF's are now following JB. JB states Virgin WILL NOT code share with Tiger. Qantas drops Jetstar code shares on domestic flights | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/01/25/qantas-drops-jetstar-code-shares-on-domestic-flights/?wpmp_switcher=mobile)
JB is proving to be a formidable opponent and leads the scoreboard unless you believe the propaganda machine pumping awards, stats and commentary in a number of releases I have not seen before.

I need not comment on the Aircraft maintenance industry as this thread has ample evidence on the action of ToF.

Like others are suggesting on this thread I have prepared myself for another career. The economy is not healthy but the market is climbing which is always accepted as a lead indicator of the economy. So fingers crossed you don't encounter a ToF at your next employ.
Good luck.

[unityqf]

can anyone provide details on the transfer package to any line station.

[Terminalfrost]

Transfering to another line station may possibly be taking your Titanic issued deck chair to another deck on the Titanic.
Liquor industry much better option.

Alternatively, if enough QF LAMEs wake up and smell the Iceberg coming they can pull together to either blow the iceberg up or overpower the Captain to steer the ship out of trouble.

The difficulty, unfortunately is that it is very difficult to get between a LAME and his wallet.

You are understaffed, overworked, overtired and can't think straight. You should all spend the next month treasuring your days off as times to spend with your families, resting or exercising, smelling the roses, getting your mojo's back.

The best way to help your yourself and your colleagues and the future of the LAME is to spend some timeaway from the coal face and enjoying life.

Remember keep cool

TF

[Annulus Filler]

Facts are the backlog of work is growing and growing everyday. QE management are smart enough to recognize that, but they are too stupid to know what to do about it. Maybe put a few Ops managers on nightshift. Simple mathematics, if you can't get the work done with the current employees numbers, how the hell do you do it when you have even less. Smarten up QE management before you bring the whole company to its knees and blame the unions for your mismanagement. I hope CASA is watching you like a hawk and puts you in your place. CASA has an obligation to the traveling Public's safety and well being. Iit is right now that they need to step in and stop this nonsense before it is too late and there is no way to recover.

[Bagus]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
Boeing has started to warn airlines that deliveries of 787 Dreamliners could be delayed, including at least one delivery scheduled for as late

[Jethro Gibbs]

Alternatively, if enough QF LAMEs wake up and smell the Iceberg coming they
can pull together to either blow the iceberg up or overpower the Captain to
steer the ship out of trouble.


No ones going to be overpowering the Captain of this ship best you grab a life vest and jump overboard people save yourselfs .

[legacy LAME]

Good to see that the majority of the boys are standing up to the
company and not doing OT.
Unlike the AME,s union rep who is killing the pig!
72hrs OT last pay . Well done.
Can't lie straight in bed but got plenty of coin.
Doesn't have to worry about sharing it cause he now sits
by himself.
Some of our 380 boys should have a good look at themselves as well.

Here's a tip. As an old SYD DOM (BD) manager once said
The only thing QANTAS understands is delays. That's it!

Nappy stain is only there to cut costs. And getting rid of us is the only way
he knows how. If you make it work buy doing OT he wins.
If we start running out of serviceable aircraft questions will be asked.
The fact that the ops managers are now on shift means we are hurting them.
If its not working now imagine what it's going to be like with 30% less people.
If we make it work there will be more redundancies.
They run out of aircraft nappy stain looses and we have a chance of forcing the
company to negotiate propely

[Long Bay Mauler]

Is 72 hours even legal under the Qantas management approved fatigue management system?

It seems he is breaking Qantas policy. As a responsible employee, who would have completed their eQ training, you are obliged to report this fellow for his own protection( and your work mates).

If that fails, a Form 2000, stating that you are concerned for the welfare of this employee working excessive hours of overtime should be submitted, as executive staff in departments other than Engineering will be alerted to this dangerous practice.

It may take a strong leader from another department to pull management in Engineering into line regarding safe work practices.:ok:

[Jet-A-One]

Well said Legacy!

For the most part it's only the "I'm right Jack" types that are coming in for the hambone. It's no secret who the few 380 blokes are. No one would expect them to let the well being of fellow members get between them and the $$$. They will be remembered.

To the few that are justifying themselves by saying things like "I'll be getting tapped anyway so I may as well make a bit of coin before I go", I suggest you talk to a rep or give SP a call. There is method to the madness and it might just be your job that is saved.

Other than a few dogs, I'm glad to say everyone is sticking together and looking further ahead than this month's credit card bill, the rego that's due on the motorbike or the wife that cries because she's not getting any extra pocket money this fortnight. If you think it's hard without cream in this fortnights pay, think how much harder it will be when you're not being paid at all.

[King William III]

If we start running out of serviceable aircraft questions will be asked.
The fact that the ops managers are now on shift means we are hurting them.


I'd like to take issue with your comment…….

WE are not hurting them…….THEY are hurting themselves with their undersized testicles not allowing them to question the orders coming down from the one with the stained nappy when they KNOW them to be reckless AND stupid AND designed to wreck the joint.

WE are just not doing OT as we'd rather not spend 1 extra moment in that toxic atmosphere they THEY have created by their gutlessness.

Note to OUR management………once WE are gone YOU will be gone…….maybe if you all stood together instead of quivering in the corner we could ALL keep our jobs………just a thought!!

Nah….you're not smart enough to say anything but 'yes' are you……….

[One Eye Redundant]

I'm pretty sure that the one or two ops managers who might have enough gumption to say anything but yes, know that there are plenty of yes men coming through behind them. Qantas will just get rid of them and replace them with some other spineless idiot.
I must say to those ops managers with some sense of morals left. It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

[griffin one]

The main problem with QE management is that they are not allowed to manage up. Apparently CN lost it at the last direct report meeting spitting and verbal.
Not one manager has the balls to directly challenge the lunacy that exists.
As the wombat use to say there is a lot of people around here that have to sit to take a piss.

Ops mangers on shift what exactly will that achieve other then piss off an already pissed of workforce, just remember to remind them your on shift penalties and their next in the gun sights.

As for an Australian icon what a joke, how many airframes have heavy checks carried out onshore?

[Sunfish]

My guess is that they are looking to replace the lot of you with Chinese on 457 visas.

[Millet Fanger]

Generally, I think you guys have been too hard on QE Ops management. They provide a good example to follow. Since being on the 12 hour shift roster, not one of them has come in for an extra shift. So, follow your leaders - DON'T WORK OVERTIME!!!

Some other examples they have provided - one was spotted renewing his Cat 4 license (good little boy), another was caught sleeping on night shift (actively addressing fatigue - again very good), one turns his phone off when not on shift (planners were trying to reach him) and another one was spotted going home early (wonder if Nick caught him).

[avionicame]

As a somewhat wise and quite hairy bloke more than once said- "I've seen you management pricks come and go and I'm still here". Hopefully we can raise a toast at The Rowers one day and say the same about Nappystain!

Here here!:D:D

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey guys I need some help from you all with some information I am gathering for the inevitable court case that will take place over this round of cuts. Apparently Qantas are so short staffed in Syd already that there is unlimited overtime available. They are so in need of extra persons coming in that they are sending bucket loads of text messages such as "we have an operational requirement.......".

We suspect that they are sending these messages in breach of the company policy on fatigue managment. That is they are asking you to work when it is illegal. This must be the case because I am tracking the ot and clearly a few bad apples are breaking the rules. In case you are unaware, the company group policy is -



When you finish your last nightshift, you cannot work for another 58 hours to make sure you have a proper rest. That is, no call ins or training for days one and two off and most likely the morning of day three.
In any seven days you must not work more than 60 hours.
The last 24 hours of your break between shifts must be free from any duty.
I ask this guys. If you have been sent a text message to work any of the periods explained above, please fwd me the text or send an email explaining when they wanted you to work.

The information may be used in court to show that they are pressuring persons to undertake an illegal act because they are so short staffed. I hope you can all understand the importance of this matter.

cheers
Steve

[rtv]

I had no idea about that policy ... We often recieve text asking for ot on the first day off

[hadagutfull]

Does that policy apply to all variations of rosters or only the 12 hour 4/4 roster?
Is the SIO 0100 finish considered night shift for example ?
I'm not sure if they are getting SMS or call in though.

[the_company_spy]

How about planners sending text msg whilst still asleep between first and second night shift, and then planner hunting last night shift crews to see if they will work another night shift. This is what's been happening.

[Silverado]

When you finish your last nightshift, you cannot work for another 58 hours

Your last nightshift can be an overtime shift.

eg 2 days, 2 nights, 1 O/T night. Then you need 58 hours.


58 hours is about the time needed to transition back to day shift, is it not?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Policy is here -

http://i50.tinypic.com/5wi36g.png


http://i47.tinypic.com/2zxz6dz.png



Yes the 58 is so you can cycle back on to day shift safely. The wording doesn't appear to allow the last shift to be followed by another overtime night though. You need to be able to plan your life and sleep patterns in advance. It is all explained in the supporting paragraphs to the policy.

[Ngineer]

Is there also a clause that states if you are required to be on call then you should also be paid a special penalty??

No-one I know gets paid this, so as far as I see it his own time is his free time.


Who answers call from restricted numbers anyway??

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Is there also a clause that states if you are required to be on call then you should also be paid a special penalty??

Not at Qantas. We had that put in at Virgin tough.

[PIOT Bord]

Received an O/T call from my manager. He seems a little embarrassed that he had to call. Accepted no as an answer. There were no lawyer constructed questions that followed. I guess not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet.

[Kharon]

Interesting article in today's - PLANE TALKING (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/02/12/a-reminder-that-some-cuts-can-be-very-costly/)– Ben Sandilands. Worth the minute it takes to read...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[AEROMEDIC]

As we know, the Concorde fell victim to such a PDA incident from another operator, who may not have applied the vigilance that would have seen this coming.
Inexperienced staff don't see parts that are loose as a LAME would and don't comprehend the dangers of unsecured parts exposed to high speed flight.
Things may SEEM OK at a quick glance, but the experienced eye and knowledge of previous incidents by the LAME cannot be substituted by a baggage handler.

Many LAMES identify such faults,and at risk of a delay to a departing flight, FIX the problem. This usually cops negative feedback from the airline about finding the problem in the first place, even though fixing now saves large amounts of money FOR the airline.

[aveng]

The technical bulletin from Airbus to airlines seems to be aimed at managements that don’t think that frequently used airliners need walk around inspections by trained engineers.

That is 180 degrees from what Qantas is saying. They reckon, "the manufacturers say new generation aircraft need less maintenance".:ugh:

[The Black Panther]

Something for the Engineering Flyer to answer perhaps?
....I have sent in 5 questions to date, all failed to make the final edition. What a surprise! The propaganda machine runs on one program.

I can feel number 6 coming up but I already know the outcome.
Maybe a few hundred questions on the same issue might get some attention :ok:

[nut turner]

Good to the Fed Sec picking up on fatigue management, what happened when this was pointed out to the Association over 5 years ago and again last year.
Nothing!:mad:
Oh thats right, no gain to be made of it then. You knew the company was breaking its own rules but did nothing about it.

Is the union trying to cover its back now? Bit late I think.

Yes SAM management also knew they were breaching group policy and finaly brought out there own Fatigue Policy in 2010 which is slightly different to the Group's.

I generally don't work O/T and haven't during this dispute because I enjoy my time at home, but I believe attacking our own members will not help our cause, focus on the company and hold them to account.

[ZoneTemp]

Nappystain & GH have been on the equivalent of a lottery for quiet a few years now $$$$$$$$$.

Be prepared for some very interesting developments now, many will be shocked and disappointed.

FEDSEC, we hope your arguements are water tight in every respect.

Know Thy Enemy, sounds so simple.

The battle has just began.

[boeingsgoing]

Avalon CR's happening right now. Tapped and out the door shortly after. Sad times. Any news on Sydney??

[Rotor n Wings]

Sorry to hear about the Redundancy Guy's not a good thing at all. Have any unions associations (ALAEA, AWU,AMWU) HAD ANY INPUT FOR TODAY AT ALL.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Good to the Fed Sec picking up on fatigue management, what happened when this was pointed out to the Association over 5 years ago and again last year.

Who pointed it out 5 years ago and last year? I never heard anything. It's only through the consultation and subsequent research that we have been made aware that Qantas are breaking their own rules.


but I believe attacking our own members

Who is attacking our members? Apart from management of course.

FYI - The ALAEA are raising options for that company to find jobs for people. One of them is to have them follow their own fatigue policy. If they did they would need more people, simple as that. Members of course should be following the policy as well.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Have any unions associations (ALAEA, AWU,AMWU) HAD ANY INPUT FOR TODAY AT
ALL.

Good Question or have they been caught off guard

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Good Question or have they been caught off guard

The ALAEA lodged an application for a breach of Agreement against Forstaff this arvo.

[Jethro Gibbs]

The ALAEA lodged an application for a breach of Agreement against Forstaff
this arvo

So the answer is yes .
Will application for a breach of Agreement against Forstaff stop further action by Forstaff at this time .
Never trust Forstaff .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Will application for a breach of Agreement against Forstaff stop further action by Forstaff at this time .

If you know Wally, you will know it wont stop them. They think they can just do what they want. The theory goes like this. They just keep sacking people in the hope that they win the case we are about to run. If they lose they think they will be so far in it is too hard to overturn.

[legacy LAME]

So what happened in avv?
Everyone gone ? Cull?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A small number got tapped today.

[Jethro Gibbs]

That's just the beginning and its hardly a small number if your one of them .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

They plan to tap around 250. I just answered the question about what happened today.

[legacy LAME]

Sydney heavy, tulla heavy gone. Avalon going,
30% from base. Rampies doing tows.
Pretty clear what nasty swines plan for the future is, and
We are not part of it.
Unbelievable thing is that people are making it work
By doing OT.

[nut turner]

Fed Sec

Quote :



Who pointed it out 5 years ago and last year? I never heard anything. It's only through the consultation and subsequent research that we have been made aware that Qantas are breaking their own rules.



Perhaps you should read emails sent to you via the Association and read the repsonse of the President when he sends them out, you would know who.



Quote:


Who is attacking our members? Apart from management of course.


Sending out personel SMS's to individuals instead of letting everyone know via a Union notice of their obligations. I think that is bullying and harasment.

No I wasn't the one you sent the SMS to.

Quote:


FYI - The ALAEA are raising options for that company to find jobs for people. One of them is to have them follow their own fatigue policy. If they did they would need more people, simple as that. Members of course should be following the policy as well.


It's good that you are posting vacancies around the globe and exploring all avenues to find jobs and as you say members should follow policy, but which one because as I pointed out SAM policy is different to Group policy, why is that.

If you want further information I can PM the details.

[Sunfish]

I don't think you quite understand the Fed Secs situation. He calls a wildcat strike and he is in the slammer as well as losing his house.

Furthermore, some of you wouldn't join in anyway, making the effort pointless.

If you are brave, go talk to the CFMEU Boys, and let them advise you.

[legacy LAME]

Well said sunfish.

[nut turner]

I'm not after him to call a strike, just go after the company not his members. The association has known about fatigue management long enough.

[Rotor n Wings]

Sunfish, I have deleted the post you answered as you pointed out I admit I was wrong and appologies to all. Rotor n Wings

[oldgerman]

Got a Text today to work o/t 15th nightshift. Called back to accept but was rejected. Must have been that I took redundancy 4 mths ago. Syd base must be in chaos.

[Bagus]

It is a shame,while there are aircraft being serviced offshore QF is making engineers redundant.

[Alien Role]

Is it true that 737 heavy maintenance will be carried out by AirNZ in CHC ?? :ugh::=

Role on....

[legacy LAME]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't,t Alan Joyce
get on TV and say that there would be no aircraft sent overseas
as a result of these job cuts (or words to that effect)?
Oldgerman, that is the funniest thing I have heard all day

[Bootstrap1]

Some JHAS guys in Sydney are saying that JHAS has picked up a QF Contract. Has anyone else heard this or know anything about it?

[going down-under]

Is it true that 737 heavy maintenance will be carried out by AirNZ in CHC ??
:ugh::=


Don't confuse QF with VA, I know VA does it in CHC (think you know as well so my comment is purely an effort to seperate rumours from facts)
I hope you're wrong! Like legacy LAME said, altough it could just be another lie from AJ

[Alien Role]

No confusion, QF is the word.

Role on....

[boeingsgoing]

737 heavy maintenance has been carried out in CHC by air NZ before. Last aircraft was about 18 months ago. Only classics though then.

[qf 1]

that's what we where told in Sydney,all D checks to be done at Avalon,and what do you know a few months later the D checks find themselves in Singapore.Did you really think the 737 work was going to Brisbane:mad:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Did you really think the 737 work was going to Brisbanehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

The 120 AME positions in BNE who's got a job I only know of 1 and others that have not heard anything meanwhile you now have ALG who are on the out with Qantas.
Who Now have there CHC office actively trying to source the same trades for Air NZ without out much luck so far .

[Upper Deck]

The 120 AME positions in BNE who's got a job I only know of 1 and others that have not heard anything

Jethro

After a 4 week wait from the induction/interview, medicals are next to be done (ASAP). :D

But still no news on the conditions of employment apart from a 1 year contract. It would be good to know the rates and accom. situation before entering into what may be a fruitless exercise. :hmm:

[Cassey jones]

Whats happening at Ava? Are they tapping 25 people a week for CR or a day.Is Forstaff/QF continuing with a C R program?
Does the Syd CR criteria apply to the 20 QF employes at Ava or has there been a change of plan?
Anyone. When is the selection criteria forCR ment to be released?
Cheers

[QF94]

Whats happening at Ava? Are they tapping 25 people a week for CR or a day.Is Forstaff/QF continuing with a C R program?
Does the Syd CR criteria apply to the 20 QF employes at Ava or has there been a change of plan?
Anyone. When is the selection criteria forCR ment to be released?
Cheers

Anyone who knows anything is being very tight-lipped about it. The company won't say anything and the unions won't say anything, while the guys that are going to get shafted are kept in the dark awaiting their fate.

This is how negotiations are done these days. All sorst of BS being flung around from both sides.

[QF94]

I don't think you quite understand the Fed Secs situation. He calls a wildcat strike and he is in the slammer as well as losing his house.

Furthermore, some of you wouldn't join in anyway, making the effort pointless.

If you are brave, go talk to the CFMEU Boys, and let them advise you.

Sunfish, since when did you become a supporter of unions and QANTAS employees?

I recall you being a staunch advocate of never flying QANTAS and being one of the 82% who choose not to fly QANTAS, making AJ's figures look plausible in justifying his cuts to QANTAS workers. You want a company to survive, support it instead of giving sideline advice and sounding all so knowledgeable, while supporting your favoured foreign airline of choice, namely Emirates.

Fedsec can't call a wildcat strike because they are a thing of the past. The only "real" course of action is an unofficial O/T ban in which QANTAS employees have suddenly decided they are now more family-orientated than ever before and want to spend more time with their families.

[buttmonkey1]

the place is a three ring circus
run by assclowns.
bunch of new lames moving up north now
and even more ready to up anchor and shove off.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Whats happening at Ava? Are they tapping 25 people a week for CR or a day.Is Forstaff/QF continuing with a C R program?

Forstaff are just doing as they please and disregarding the terms of the EBA. They aren't telling us so we have lodged for FWA intervention for breach of agreement.

Does the Syd CR criteria apply to the 20 QF employes at Ava or has there been a change of plan?
Anyone. When is the selection criteria forCR ment to be released?

Qantas keep putting dog proposals to us for selection criteria. It is all still under discussion. They only want to apply 20% of the wieghting towards years of service. The put a table before us and at that weighting every single 330 and 380 licence holder is safe. We have rejected it of course because it effectively gives no consideration to years with the company.

[Bagus]

Going to work is a challenge not knowing u could be a victim of tapping,u could get tap on arrival,during smoke break or working on aircraft.if not tapped u are mentally disturbed seeing ur mates gone,it is going to be a everyday torture,that's the QF way

[Slim Dog]

Even with 15+ years service at QF, it doesnt look good at all for LAMEs who only possess a single 767 or 744 licence. It is a crap situation for everyone who has been working hard and are due (or overdue) for type training (if that ever happens). :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Not impressed with this management. Slow bake is damn true. :mad::mad:

[Sunfish]

QF94:

Sunfish, since when did you become a supporter of unions and QANTAS employees?

I recall you being a staunch advocate of never flying QANTAS and being one of the 82% who choose not to fly QANTAS, making AJ's figures look plausible in justifying his cuts to QANTAS workers. You want a company to survive, support it instead of giving sideline advice and sounding all so knowledgeable, while supporting your favoured foreign airline of choice, namely Emirates.

Since you asked:

1. I intensly dislike workplace cruelty wherever I see it and the behaviour of Qantas management in its treatment of engineers and perhaps other staff is just disgusting - the deliberate maximising of fear uncertainty and doubt for the pleasure of the management.

2. As for unions, my experience is that management gets the union it deserves. I also remember when unions ran roughshod over the general publics rights in the 1970's.

3. If Qantas was managed by humans and interested in providing a genuine value proposition for Australians NOT living in Sydney, I would use it. I gave up around 2002 after a particularly bad business class trip to the USA.

4. Favourite airline? Not Emirates. BA used to be pretty good, United, Singapore and of course Virgin.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Forstaff are just doing as they please and disregarding the terms of the EBA.
They aren't telling us so we have lodged for FWA intervention for breach of
agreement.

Hang on to your hats people more to go this week wallys not finished with you yet .

[cvrurass]

Wally doesn't even have the guts to show his face at toolbox meetings, he just uses his hand puppet Con to deliver news of redundancies.

[600ft-lb]

Put it in perspective. We all know AVV has a limited future. The knife has told us all already. Potentially AVV will be kept on a limited lifeline doing the remaining 747's and 767 overflow work. The 747's will be a fleet of 9 in the near future and the 767's are done in Brisbane along with the 330's and 737's.

They have already clearly stated that the 787's and 380's won't be done in Australia come hell or high water. The state and federal governments don't care enough about aircraft maintenance to warrant them putting in any funds at all to keep the industry alive unlike the doomed car industry. Qantas even played the Victorian and Queensland governments off against each other at the beginning of 2012 to see how much more they could squeeze out of the state to line their filthy corporate pockets. Victoria has been bled dry and so has Queensland. So they went to the facility that was already servicing aircraft that will be around longer then the 747.

Pessimistic but true.

[ZoneTemp]

Throw in a Lib Fed Gov into this mess, come election time at the end of the year, with Abbott, Hockey & Co. and a voila......hello work choices and goodbye redundancy payouts or any entitlements, voluntary or compulsory.

Issues need to be sorted as soon as possible, whatever the outcome may be.

Government of any level or thereof cannot be relied on for any purpose at all.

[Sunfish]

600 ft lb.

They have already clearly stated that the 787's and 380's won't be done in Australia come hell or high water.

..............And when the Australian dollar falls through the floor and China shows its displeasure over our defence ties to America, as it soon will, the folly of offshore maintenance will be revealed for what it always was.

"Right thinking people" before the Franco Prussian, First and Second World wars believed that war and turmoil would not come because it was economically stupid as "international trade" was far too important in their globalized world.

They were wrong.

[pull-up-terrain]

They have already clearly stated that the 787's and 380's won't be done in Australia come hell or high water. The state and federal governments don't care enough about aircraft maintenance to warrant them putting in any funds at all to keep the industry alive unlike the doomed car industry.
Have you guys read the thread about Bob Katter's Bill to make airlines that operate domestic routes must have 80% of the maintenance based in Australia, and domestic flights must be operated by australian based air crew? Thats what we need to prevent 787 maintenance going offshore and to secure Australian jobs.

[AEROMEDIC]

Sunfish,

There would have to be catastrophic event for the Australian dollar to "fall through the floor" (North Korea and Iran's nueclear ambitions ) and this would result in the costs of running an airline skyrocketing. Those airlines with high debt would collapse as people drastically reduced their travelling on top of that.
Maintenance being done offshore for Qantas would be cut back as the fleet scales back. This would exacerbate the current situation unfortunately.

But there appears to be no likelihood of the dollar doing that just yet, ( as much as it would benefit the national economy) nor in the short term, and in fact, any drop is going to be quite slow so perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you think that this is about to happen.


Pull up Terrain,

Katter's bill, unfortunately, will not get up.
He just doesn't generate enough support among other pollies despite being right. I've never liked his approach to many issues, but on this issue I agree in principle, and he needs to refine the delivery of the message to the right people to have a chance.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The beauty or otherwise of Bob Katters delivery methods matter not when it comes to his passion regarding Qantas and its maintenance. The truth is he just cannnot offer exclusive club membership to the ALP rotters that put themselves before the country.

[Bagus]

International division is now making profit,:D:D:D,

[Talkwrench]

Why are sydney lameys backfilling into brisbane line maintenance rather than brisbane base maintenance?

[AEROMEDIC]

I DO like his passion, but passion is not enough for something such as this.
The niceties and hallway lobbying of politics are not his strengths and demonstrate how his political history will work against him.

I wish him luck.

[the_company_spy]

It's called mitigation, they want to retrench Sydney line LAME's and VR wasn't fully subscribed, so after asking around some Brissie line blokes put their hand up and their positions were back filled by some Sydney line blokes thereby mitigating to some degree the ultimate number of Sydney blokes who will be given their marching orders. I believe the same process should work for AVV blokes with Brisbane heavy.

[Talkwrench]

Thanks for the reply company spy.

However, why are the line and base maintenance lameys treated as completely separate groups? Why does it necessarily have to be that sydney lameys go to BNE line only and AVV lames go to BNE base only??

There are lameys in BNE Base that have put their hand up for a redundancy but have recently been told they will not receive it.

Why can't sydney lames backfill into BNE base maintenance?

I was under the impression that the company wanted to reduce lame numbers on the line, so why would they do backfills into BNE line when there is a need in BNE base?

[buttmonkey1]

The head of LMO GH has provided numberous updates on the mitigation process over the last several months. Because of the rediculous amount of time the process has been going on, you might not recall that expressions of interest were called for from all LMO ports and BNE Heavy.
Another memo had some unreadable table that identified dozens of position available in the BNE big house.
If you submitted an EOI for the mitigation process then QE Transitions would also have also attempted to identify the positions available.
Excuse my ignorance, but when did Heavy maint become Base maint and Base maint become line maint, guessing that crackpot Cox had something to with it and the stupid ACS banner.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There are lameys in BNE Base that have put their hand up for a redundancy but have recently been told they will not receive it.

Any details sent to me regarding this would be valuable.

We suspect but Qantas keep denying that they are understaffed in Bne Heavy.

[buttmonkey1]

Fedsec, could you elaborate on the numbers? originally 204? or now 240?
how many have VR'ed and how many to relocate? How many mitigation EOI's received from each Port? Maybe an update memo for the members?
So many questions.
Unfortunately i also feel there could be a safety issue having several hundred front line people directly in charge of safety critical tasks working in the current environment. The uncertainty of this process, playing on the affected guys minds, over several months, HAS become another hole in cheese.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We have sought a copy of the risk assessments from Forstaff and Qantas in relation to the uncertainty. They refuse to provide them though and yes, this is a real issue unlike the lockout they proposed. Losing pay for a couple of days is nothing like losing your job.

Numbers? It changes on a daily basis so hard to pin a notice on it. They did tell us as of last Thu (Sorry no AME numbers, they won't share that with us) -

98 Syd LAMEs to go (this has not changed)
9 are gone already through attrition
12 have or are taking VR
3 are to be redeployed through the first round offers
74 still left to be acquitted.

There are 45 positions available in other ports.

20 Qf LAMEs to go from Avalon.
Latest was that 7 more need to find work.
Qf told us that any of them who want a job in Bne Heavy can have one.
6 have applied for Mel Line jobs in first round.
ALAEA has advised Qantas that their first round preferences should be processed now if they pass the Line interview process.

[buttmonkey1]

Thanks fedsec, just one more number then? How many lames are
working with this 'slow bake' burden hanging over them.
might as well include the 45 others who have put in eoi's.

Large companies terminate hundreds of staff weekly, you can read
about it almost daily, how do our half baked managers look compared
to others. Surely they don't make their workforces endure this crap.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Meanwhile more gone from Avalon today :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Meanwhile more gone from Avalon today :ugh:

Another EBA breach. They are not meant to tap whilst consultation is ongoing.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Another EBA breach. They are not meant to tap whilst consultation is
ongoing

Yet they are so what happens if your tapped and out the door and a later decision rules its out of order where do people stand then .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FWC can order reinstatement or compensation.

[1me]

buttmonkey1

Excuse my ignorance, but when did Heavy maint become Base maint and Base maint become line maint, guessing that crackpot Cox had something to with it and the stupid ACS banner.

You can thank EASA for that!

[600ft-lb]

I believe cox came up with ETOMS.. whatever that meant.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

David Cox had that other great idea - the tragedy map.

[King William III]

FedSec said:
David Cox had that other great idea - the tragedy map.

Actually he bought it from Amazingly Dumb People. I doubt that clown, like those that worked under him, had a single original idea of his own.


Interesting to read that by seemingly divine intervention (or geoffstar actually paying their own bills finally) QF international suddenly is making a profit……..GASP….who'd have thunk it……


Guess they don't need to sack us all…….oh wait….we're Domestic now….and it's struggling to survive against the monolith that is tiger……

Daresay there'll be some mutual todger tugging at the 1/2 year tomorrow over their amazing turn-around effort…….

Cheers



Manage an airline? They can't even manage a redundancy……..

[Bagus]

QF engineering employing fixed term contract in Bne while redundancy is going on,Is that allowed.

[boeingsgoing]

There is no redundancy in BNE Base. Only the few through mitigation but that's one for one.

[Jethro Gibbs]

QF engineering employing fixed term contract in Bne while redundancy is going
on,Is that allowed

But has anyone been put on they have been F*&^ing around for 3 months now.

[boeingsgoing]

I heard 80 starting next month in BNE base. I personally know of 5. With all the people out of work it must have been easy for them to employ.

With regard to the Qantas recruitment process and time scale I have been through many of these in 4 different countries, and in my experience Qantas is as bad as the rest in the industry.

[Take five]

What are these YES men going to do if you just don't accept redundancy.

Just say NO if you are tapped.

Make it as hard as is humanely possible for them to get rid of you.

Do not accept the deliberation of idiots who are totally wrong.

Nappy Stain needs a bit of Nappysan to clear the air.

It is as bad as watching Julia, trying to justify why there is no mining tax benefit for the people of Australia. The only reason that she is still in power is because the mining companies control the Labor Party.

Fair Work Australia is the biggest joke on Earth. All it does is keep the real troops quiet.

They have lost their way and so has Qantas.

REVOLUTION is in the air.

I miss the smell of NAPALM in the morning.

Don't let them get away with it.

Take Five.

[Jethro Gibbs]

More Avalon workers sacked this morning 21/2/13 8am Geelong advertiser reports Alaea unable to comment as SP is overseas & Forstaff do not respond .

[ZoneTemp]

"Qantas has revealed the extent of the pain from the battle for passengers in the domestic market, with both its premium and low-cost flying operations suffering declines in first-half earnings."

"Qantas’s domestic operations posted a 34 per cent fall in pre-tax earnings to $218 million in the half, reflecting the battle for lucrative corporate customers with Virgin Australia."

"Qantas emphasised that all of its operations including Jetstar were profitable apart from its premium international division. But it highlighted the fact that the losses of Qantas International had been reduced by 65 per cent to $91 million in the first half."

Read more: Boeing cash papers over Qantas cracks (http://www.smh.com.au/business/earnings-season/boeing-cash-papers-over-qantas-cracks-20130221-2esj8.html#ixzz2LV2sTFvT)

Can't wait for the knee jerk response from the genius ruling class.

One things for sure, more exec & management positions worth millions in salaries will be created at the cost of real frontline jobs and an extremely thinning profit base.

Also worth a note is the fact that usually major companies make most of their profits in the "first half" of the financial year.

This redundancy cloud is here to stay with a rolling process of VR/CR for many years to come.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The paper could have contacted our office. We have 10 staff including Brad who is assigned to Avalon. Sounds like they put together a fabulous article.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Might want to contact [email protected] and set him straight then :ok:

[MR WOBBLES]

Avalon workers tell of daily redundancy fears | Geelong, VIC, Australia (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2013/02/21/359698_news.html)

[legacy LAME]

Profit eh,
Who would have thought it!
It must be getting near to bonus time.
The savings must have come from not having to pay the wages of the staff
who have already left or maybe it's the money they saved not paying overtime
( well a few 380 hero,s and an AMU rep aside ).
A pilot the other day had a bit of a laugh and pointed out that QANTAS are dropping routes faster than the public are dropping them!!!!!
Take 5 is correct , just say NO and lung it out as long as possible.
Don't let them retrench you. I heard it worked for some of the ex SYD heavy guys. They just kept coming to work and I believe they are still with us.

On that note let's take 5 and reflect on some of our managements triumphs
A380
Lean sigma
No money in freight
Old technology 777's
Maintnex
Giving away contracts
Qantas #13 on safest airline list.
Closing heavy
Selling off our spares
Feel free to add to the list, I could use a laugh


It's amazing with the benefit of hindsight how often the people
who "don't understand the business" are correct.

[domo]

Fed sec we need to know a bit more about the job share, its a big call to make a job on half pay or no job at all, People need time to digest this, and after you are in scope you lose this option

[buttmonkey1]

Don't think just saying no and keep comming to work is an option
once they have lifted your asic. Some of the Avalon guys might
confirm once tapped, you are saying no to yourself in the carpark.

[Ngineer]

No money in freight

Cartel fines lifted the cost base a tad.

Feel free to add to the list, I could use a laugh



Airline shutdowns and low morale in some dept's. (Nothing worth laughing about though). Offices full of workers with pet projects that amount to not alot. Layers upon layers of middle management. Setting up another workforce &/or outsourcing of work that we already had the capacity to complete in Sydney (for examle, money paid to contractors servicing/loading/catering Jet* when we already have the staff to provide this service if utilised correctly).

I don't have the time to sit and compile a huge list, but it ain't rocket science.

[legacy LAME]

I admit that avv is a different scenario, and I really do feel for
the forestaff guys, however these 2 individuals just kept coming in, despite
Styles adiment that there was no position for them. They were the last 2 people in the 245 smoko room. Everyone else had either left or started there relocated jobs and low and behold they are still working with us today.
Lung it out as long as possible, appeal do whatever and in this place you never know what could happen.
I hear we are not getting rid of as many 744,s now. Turns out we may need them.
My mate in planning tells me that they and MOC all got told today that they
could take the package if they wanted to.

[Clipped]

On that note let's take 5 and reflect on some of our managements triumphs
A380
Lean sigma
No money in freight
Old technology 777's
Maintnex
Giving away contracts
Qantas #13 on safest airline list.
Closing heavy
Selling off our spares
Feel free to add to the list, I could use a laugh

You mentioned shutting down Heavy Maint - SYD and MEL and then renovating H245 that cost millions.
Turning a blind eye to quality at Asian MROs
Sponsoring IASA and now Panasonic
Choosing Rockwell Collins as the IFE product
Strategy maps - Red then Blue
Oh the tree hugging
Operations Managers
Reconfiguring A330s and A380s AFTER delivery
Shutting down Engine overhaul
Shutting down Workshops
Saving millions (not) on APU fuel usage
Convenient Safety Beliefs
Denigrating our profession
And the Lies, lies and lies.

Let's not stop here.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Offices full of workers with pet projects that amount to
not alot. Layers upon layers of middle management & empire builders .

When the workers are gone your NEXT your time is coming sooner than you think .:ok:

[King William III]

I am frustrated that people operate with hidden agendas.



Oh dear….poor chap must get frustrated every time he sees himself…….

[MR WOBBLES]

http://www.alaea.asn.au/attachments/article/87/QF%20LAME%20Workplace%20Determination%202012.pdf

Domo look at page 7-10

[domo]

Thanks MR. WOBBLES I thought job share was different to part time, you are right its in there

[Jethro Gibbs]

The Silence from Media and all the unions about the redundancies of the past week and today at Avalon is just Deafening .

[Jethro Gibbs]

HERALD SUN FRIDAY
VICTORIA will host the Australian International Airshow for at least another decade in a big win for jobs and the aviation sector.:mad:
Big win for jobs and the aviation sector BULLS*&T:ugh::mad::mad::mad: Avalon sacking people everyday:mad::mad::mad:

[AWB_Clerk]

Jethro,

For Christ sake, quit with the negative whinging. So you are in a bad position; well you're not the only one (and yes, I am amongst them). Attacking everyone and everything, including some who are trying to help you at a time when no one else will is wearing real thin.

Pull your head in.

[PIOT Bord]

Job Share is different to a part time position - covered by the transition to retirement clause.

Job share - 2 people agree to work the roster of one full time employee. They can cover that position any way they like e.g. one works days, the other nights; one block on, one block off; 3 months on, 3 months off; etc. As long as the shift is covered.

Part time - company determines when you work subject to minimum hours. Shifts can be as short as 4 hours, split shifts, permanent nights, continually varying, whatever meets companies' requirements.

You can choose which you prefer. I know Job share is my preferred option and part time is the company's preferred option.

[rtv]

My concern with job share is getting retrenched whilst doing the job share . Retrenchment pay will be heaps lower .. Knowing management they would retrench a week after starting...... Heard a rumor supervisors and dmm will be retrenched in the next rounds with a shift coordinator employed .the ops managers to be more proactive in a day to day ops (similar to 380)

[33 Disengage]

Retrenchment - when it happens, and it will happen for the vast majority - payout is based around an hourly rate of pay. The EBA stipulates that the job share rate of pay is equivalent to the full-time rate of pay.

All other benefits will accrue but on a pro-rata basis i.e. long service will accrue but at half the rate, annual leave ditto, sick leave, etc, etc.

The benefit is that when the A330 reconfig programme starts, EK overnight work, or whatever, job share get first crack at a full-time position if interested. (The present management will not be there forever).

[rtv]

"". The EBA stipulates that the job share rate of pay is equivalent to the full-time rate of pay."" mate I cannot find that , what page is it on??........ I can find retrenchment pay is based on the weekly pay , ie so many weeks pay for years of service.

[33 Disengage]

rtv - WD (eba) clause 13.3.3

[Long Bay Mauler]

Is the ALAEA having a stand at the Avalon Air Show, particularly over the trade days?

Could be a good opportunity to spruik and network for guys looking for employment still within in the industry. Perhaps a demonstration of skills, like the Vegas convention the ALAEA team has been to in recent years.

[rtv]

Qantas is leasing 747s for freight ..fact .

[Jethro Gibbs]

Is the ALAEA having
a stand at the Avalon Air Show, particularly over the trade days?
Could be
a good opportunity to spruik and network for guys looking for employment still
within in the industry. Perhaps a demonstration of skills, like the Vegas
convention the ALAEA team has been to in recent years.

Last time I looked they did not sell any Products and there not an employment agency.

[Arnold E]

For Christ sake, quit with the negative whinging.

Afraid I have to agree with Jethro, you can lie down and play "doggo" or at the very least protest :mad: I know I have been criticized in the past for being a dinosaur, but the FACT is in the old days we got things done to OUR advantage. Stand up, or lie down, your choise.

[600ft-lb]

To inject a bit of a reality check.

If they terminate your employment, they switch off you ASIC card's access. If you were to then access an airside area without a legitimate reason you are breaking the law and are likely to be locked up, charged and a black mark put against your name when you next try to get an ASIC card.

I know it was different in the old days, management were a bit nicer because they came from the ranks. These days they're all uni grad career managers that thrive on conflict and have a deep seated hate of workers who get one over them.. They still have the ****s from 2 EBA's ago when D.Cox got the boot shortly afterwards. This is their punishment.

[Jethro Gibbs]

For Christ sake, quit with the negative whinging.

Just stating what's going on its as simple as that guys on the floor are losing there jobs where is the positive in that because I don't see it .

[empire4]

Jethro, I know its crap what is happening but you can LEAVE. Go get a job somewhere else. If you are good enough and skilled enough then you'll be fine. Realise AVV is dead, QF is dead. Stop whinging and talk with your feet.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A stand at the Airshow?

No. We had one years ago. It costs about 25 grand and on a return for investment basis it is not worth it. We do sell something, membership. The people who attend airshows tend to be aircraft enthusiasts, not Engineers.

We would prefer to send a team to Vegas each year to showcase what we can do in the global Aircraft Engineers competition. When over there we share experiences with our counterparts and we always rank high in the final standings. Btw I have never attended the comp, it is for our members.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Go get a job somewhere else. If you are good enough and skilled enough then you'll be fine.


This is not correct. The best Engineer I know can't get work because he has been a vocal mouthpiece before for all our rights. Some companies like to employ Engineers who couldn't identify a bird strike from a teacher's strike. They never find things wrong on inspections and hence save money on repairs.

[Silverado]

Qantas is leasing 747s for freight ..fact .

Very true, they are wet leasing Atlas Air 744 x 3.

Or are you talking about the 3 x 744 that EFA have looked at in Victorville. That may be leased for the QF freight contract?

[rtv]

How the heck do u quote someone ?? Maybe it's the iPhone I'm using

[1me]

How the heck do u quote someone ?? Maybe it's the iPhone I'm using


Like this rtv... :p

[1me]

rtv et al..

To quote someone try enclosing the subject text with "[/quote]" at the end of the text and "[quote]" at the beginning of the text. Sorry to have written it this way but when used in the correct sense the "quote" command disappears. Not very helpful when trying to illustrate a point.. And it goes without saying that the quotation marks are not required either. Apologies if I'm telling you how to suck eggs..

[Jethro Gibbs]

This comment to The Geelong Advertiser says it all about whats going on at Avalon.
LOTS OF OVERTIME BEING DONE LAST NIGHT and THIS MORNING... Qantas Management, Senior, Middle and on the floor you are an absolute disgrace. Friends removed in a humilitating process and you poor excuses are still pushing Overtime. Clear we don't have enough people... let the Aircraft wait.

[rtv]

"Or are you talking about the 3 x 744 that EFA have looked at in Victorville. That may be leased for the QF freight contract?"

EFA has been looking at 744 and even contacting potential crew

Oh it seems iPhone does not support the quote function

[rmm]

I doubt it's the iPhone, have a look at some examples here.

BBCode examples (http://www.bbcode.org/examples/)

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Oh it seems iPhone does not support the quote function Ugh!!! I am sure iPhone can cut and paste.

Type (without spaces) [Q U O T E] paste the quoted text in here [/ Q U O T E]

Spoon feeding iPhone fanboys is becomming a habbit :mad:

[Gas Bags]

habit has only one b...unless you meant hobbit which has two.....anyway I thought i would point this out...nothing to loose!

[UPPERLOBE]

Meanwhile back on topic...

Business blasts skilled visa changes (http://afr.com/p/national/labor_cracks_down_on_visas_gihEv4aiiyYmhA8S6d4GXK)

[1me]

habit has only one b...unless you meant hobbit which has two.....anyway I thought i would point this out...nothing to loose!

And lose has only one o.. unless of course you were meaning "loose" as in not tight..

[Tankengine]

" "Or are you talking about the 3 x 744 that EFA have looked at in Victorville. That may be leased for the QF freight contract?"

EFA has been looking at 744 and even contacting potential crew "


Qantas has 744s in Sydney and Victorville, plus plenty of crew!:ugh::ugh::mad:

[King William III]

Yes, but the QF ones have the 'wrong' engines and lots of pesky seats….makes it hard to load the pallets with all those seats in the way.

Besides, if the freight mob 'buy' them by passing on AJ's cheque then they don't need pesky Qantas pilots to fly them…..

….this way they can have a fleet of 744's and STILL get rid of all the Qantas pilots and engineers………


A-holes

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon. First on Last Off . Well So Much for that :ugh:

[ampclamp]

Jethro, is LOFO in the EBA as THE selection criteria or shall be a consideration or words to that effect ?

[Bootstrap1]

Jethro so is that first on last off for Qantas or Forstaff?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Forstaff LOFO is the words of the agreement. It doesn't just say they will consider it. They are sidestepping it in part though by saying things like this -

Employees with PE licences are exempt

LAME employees with 767 licences are exempt

[AEROMEDIC]

Fed sec,

I didn't think that it could be side stepped. If it's defined as "last on, first off", it seems pretty clear how it operates.
You have taken this to FWA, so have they handed down a decision yet ?
Also, by ignoring this clause in the agreement, they should be subject to some sort of fine, are they not?
I believe what Forstaff /Qantas are trying to do is an action that is illegal for unions, and employers would be on FWA's doorstep with the appropriate documents if it were the other way around.
No matter what the needs of business, the LOFO makes no mention of being able to pick and choose by anybody. When LOFO is enacted, the employer takes whats left.

What action are you prepared to take at the moment?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We took action in FWA last time they did this when they excluded 737 licences from the process. We got this rubbish ruling from FWA that nobody from either side can either understand. I suppose you could call it a non decision. We then proposed to use it as un unfair dismissal basis for the appeals but the ones tapped did not want to go down that path. I am not sure bt maybe they got jobs in Bne.

[Romulus]

I didn't think that it could be side stepped. If it's defined as "last on, first off", it seems pretty clear how it operates.

Depends on the "operational reason". If they have a need for 767 licenced people but not 737 licences due to changed requirements then they can quite definitely target 737 licence holders because they are the capability that is surplus to requirement.

Having defined that 737 licenced people are surplus to requirements then LOFO applies to that particular skill set. Management always retains the right to manage, that cannot be removed for the clear reason that if they don't need 737 people they cannot be required to make people with required skills redundant,that is clearly ridiculous.

[Bootstrap1]

Hang on Romulus, you are using some common sense, this is a Qantas thread I am not sure if that is allowed.

[AEROMEDIC]

Having defined that 737 licenced people are surplus to requirements then LOFO applies to that particular skill set. Management always retains the right to manage, that cannot be removed for the clear reason that if they don't need 737 people they cannot be required to make people with required skills redundant,that is clearly ridiculous

Agreed to a point, being, when there is no definition in the agreement as to how the principle of LOFO works, then you risk court action on both sides. In other words, history has not been a good teacher. Both sides seem content to leave the wording that it applies in the case of redundancies, albeit blurry and open to interpretation,so unions and management can agree to a process as to how it should work to reduce staff levels to meet the "needs of business".

The fact is, that it has never worked, and gets forgotten about in good times, and has only served to promote confrontation between the parties when the time comes to activate the clause as recent events show.

The nature of change in the aircraft industry requirements for aircraft type, licence coverage and maintenance procedures in running an airline plays it's part in the evolution of agreements. In general, this evolution in agreements has reasonably met the expectations of both sides. But, poor managers and even poorer consultants advising them deliberately creating confrontations with unions and employees means that sitting down and working the blurred view of LOFO was never going to work.
It also means the "right to manage" becomes a subject of ridicule instead of respect.

I would hope that in future agreements that appropriate wording can be inserted to ensure complete understanding by all parties

[Romulus]

Hang on Romulus, you are using some common sense, this is a Qantas thread I am not sure if that is allowed.

1: I try. I don't always succeed.

2: I get fired a lot. Not sure if there is a connection.

:)

[Romulus]

The nature of change in the aircraft industry requirements for aircraft type, licence coverage and maintenance procedures in running an airline plays it's part in the evolution of agreements. In general, this evolution in agreements has reasonably met the expectations of both sides. But, poor managers and even poorer consultants advising them deliberately creating confrontations with unions and employees means that sitting down and working the blurred view of LOFO was never going to work.


My first principle in selecting line management is quite simple: Will they take responsibility and accountability?

Do that and 80% of Union issues go away. I believe my management team have far better things to do with their time than deal with the SPs or PCs or, God forbid, the LivLovers of the world. Get them out of my hair unless there's a major CF and let us focus on the business and getting effective and staying employed.

Whilst I believe Unions have a place they also need to learn that place. Management should manage, from the very first leading hand right up to the CEO and Chairman. I don't want Unions interfering with my site ad my operations. I only get that by being consistently fair myself and ensuring my people do the same. I expect the same from Union reps and, in the interests of being fair, when I was at JHAS we always got that.

There is a lot to dislike about the agreement at JHAS compared to more traditional Qantas and Ansett T's & C's, it surfaces here every so often, but the simple fact is that without a huge degree of flexibility the business would have gone under and everyone would have been in the same position as the poor buggers from various other facilities around Victoria. But I don't believe anyone who was there at the time I was could ever say we didn't put the message out there clearly and up front - if you can't commit to giving flexibility then you need to move somewhere else.

In return we got a huge amount of goodwill up front. I don't know what happened to it, I simply wasn't there. But one thing I know: people dislike bad news in their face but they hate bull****ters. That's the change that needs to be made.



It also means the "right to manage" becomes a subject of ridicule instead of respect.

By not managing, minor issues become small issues which fester and grow into medium issues and ultimately big issues. The effort to solve them increases by a factor of 10 at each step of that progression. But it takes guts to put your nuts on the line if you're not certain of what you're doing so all too often managing things gets put off for doing another report or somesuch.

This is where the German model works well. Everyone raves about employees sitting on management committees and boards and how management in Australia won't respect that sort of input but the reverse is also true- it is all too rare to get genuine commitment from the workforce to pull shirkers and malcontents into line.

That's not to blame the workforce, it's to recognise that there are problems on both sides that are going to take a huge amount of trust building to overcome. I'm not talking some wanky "Pillars/Bridges of Trust" presentation, I'm talking about getting out in front of people and being brutally honest about what is planned and then talking and delivering on that plan. Because if that plan is communicated properly then people know where they stand and
what their future is and can plan accordingly.


I would hope that in future agreements that appropriate wording can be inserted to ensure complete understanding by all parties

Mate, if you could deliver that you'd be a billionaire in very short order!

[cvrurass]

I have a good idea. Let's work overtime, before work, after work, on weekends and RDO's.

NOT!!!

Don't you guys get it!

WAKE UP!!!

Stop being so selfish.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Cvrurass is right guys get put off at Avalon and people jump straight into overtime :ugh: to help the same company thats going to put them off next .

[600ft-lb]

I agree with you Romulus, good points.

Because if that plan is communicated properly then people know where they stand and what their future is and can plan accordingly.

The problem at Qantas with any sort of performance management is that it has traditionally been used as a tool to manage people they consider troublemakers out of the job. MEDA's have been used to sack people - in one famous case the poor bloke was trying to do the right thing by the company and put in an impossible position when it hit the fan.

Put simply - the bridge of trust burnt down long ago. Well meaning managers may try to build it again, but sacking 204 then calling the condemned in to do overtime non stop is another example of how its set on fire again.

[qf 1]

i guess if the people that are being shown the door come back in the next dispute to help Qantas out, the people left doing overtime at the moment really have nothing to complain about.The scene is set.Dog eat Dog.

[Clipped]

Will they take responsibility and accountability

Romulus

You may well be a good leader. You appear to have and demand principles. Unfortunately, for the past decade we have had to endure abhorrent management teams without an ounce of integrity.

You could not fathom how low some of these leaches crawl, hide and suck for their personal survival. How are we to yield to these bullsh#t strategies that have little to do with driving real change? But rather deliver an industrial agenda to crush those who do generally perform a decent days work.

If our management wanted to win over our hearts and minds they may well read and learn from your eloquently poised verse. Instead our weasals will bow to CN's ill informed direction that has done nothing to advance aviation maintenance in this country but rather attempt to annihilate a workforce already disengaged by over ten years of internal conflict.

Hence, we hold dear our Association. I'm proud that organisation has our professional standards, welfare and safety in mind, foremost.

[Romulus]

Romulus.

Flexibility and heavy maint. doesn't work. Heavy checks need stability in the workforce. JHAS demonstrated that to me on a practical level that you may have appreciated if you'd hung around longer.

Refer post 692 point 2.

Not my choice to depart old chap, my thought patterns were deemed unnecessary.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Meanwhile it seems Qantas is having quite some trouble filling the 12 month positions in BNE numerous positions readvertised again .:oh:

[AEROMEDIC]

In return we got a huge amount of goodwill up front. I don't know what happened to it, I simply wasn't there. But one thing I know: people dislike bad news in their face but they hate bull****ters. That's the change that needs to be made.

Start ups like John Holland and Forstaff go through that honeymoon period.
Everyone is glad to have a job and will do what it takes to keep it. There's plenty of co-operation on both sides and the will to make it a success is huge. Hourly rates are low, management know what targets to set and what it takes to get there. The goodwill is enormous. There's an agreement in place that all parties are happy about and everyone makes a dollar.....You beauty!!

So what comes undone to spoil the party? .....You're right,it's change.

Like most situations, people become disenchanted when a change does not advantage them. Some changes are good, but there is always someone or a group who feels aggrieved by a change. This usually doesn't come from the founding group , it comes from those who come in as expansion takes place.
The founders knew "how things worked", what to do, just "to get the job completed on time and sometimes without reward for their "can do" attitude.

The flexibility introduced from the outset gets resented by the later troops when they feel that management now use it unfairly, whether they do or not.
Management, on the other hand, tend to make promises they can't keep. This is not to say they are being dishonest, rather to say that change involves the client who isn't necessarily as considerate as the employer. Trying to be fair is the hardest part as the client can undermine managements best efforts.

The union (s) get involved because their members ask for help. Talks between the parties serve only to identify the separation for agreement between them.

That's the end of your goodwill.

You may have your divisive client to thank for that and perhaps the wishes of an undeserved few that ask for more than they are prepared to give.

[cvrurass]

767 licenses are no longer safe from redundancy.

Overtime continues, like pirates taking booty from a sinking ship.

[Jethro Gibbs]

All been done under the cover of the Airshow anyone heard from the unions .

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Are you a member of a union jethro? Still haven't answered.

[Rotor n Wings]

I would have thought the guy's would have got together and would be unavailable for overtime while mates are being shown the door?

[Bootstrap1]

Rotor, there was no show of solidarity when Sydney heavy shut down,don't expect it this time. The only difference this time is the heads on the block.

[Romulus]

Romulus. Sorry about the cheap quip, I should of known!

No harm, no foul.

Funny thing is there's a brilliant opportunity in front of them right now but they're mucking it up. Virgin have the potential to be an awesome client provided JHAS stop thinking like a contractor. As for QF, blind Freddie can see what they should do there but they can't think their way to the right solution.

Word has it an alternate MRO is looking to establish in Aus using some recently "retired" facilities and tools once the transmission of business issues are resolved. Once that happens then it's game over JHAS unless they figure out how to actually deliver what the customers want. In a very small market or 2 major customers pissing one off and having no idea how to address the needs of the other is a pretty ordinary strategy.

[Joe A350]

Rumour has it that an additional 600 LAMEs from across Australia will be made redundant in the second half of this year.

Could this be in relation to a new MRO start-up taking work from Qantas Engineering?

[Bagus]

Whats going on at Avv ,now those who have 767 can apply CR.what is Qf up to now.Line is disastrous,look at snags that's coming in.its bad

[Bagus]

Wellington, New Zealand:* Air New Zealand said Friday that one of its pilots fell into a deep sleep while at the controls of an international flight but insisted that safety aboard the aircraft was never compromised.

He was one of two pilots flying a 332-seat Boeing 777-300ER from London to Los Angeles in November 2011, according to a report released after a freedom of information request.

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) document said the pilot voluntarily submitted a "fatigue report" with the regulator, recounting how he slept on the job.

The pilot, who was not identified, blamed a poor night's rest in London, when air-conditioning problems in his hotel meant he had to change rooms three times, for his exhausted state on the flight.

"I suddenly, and without any warning, fell into a deep sleep on the flight deck. The same event occurred twice," he said.

Air New Zealand said safety was paramount for the airline and it encouraged staff to report instances of fatigue as part of a programme to manage shift rosters to address the issue.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Whats going on at Avv

No one is safe now even those who think they are the end is near all the overtime your doing will mean F All in the end .

[Bagus]

All the unions got to get together to stop anymore redundancy in engineering.why are the unions so quiet and doing nothing.they have to show some leadership

[600ft-lb]

All the unions got to get together to stop anymore redundancy in engineering.why are the unions so quiet and doing nothing.they have to show some leadership

Maybe its quiet but I don't think you'll ever get a running commentary about ongoing negotiations.

If they were doing nothing you'd be out of a job already.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Maybe its quiet but I don't think you'll ever get a running commentary about
ongoing negotiations.

What Negotiations.

If they were doing nothing you'd be out of a job already.
People already out of job now.



All the unions got to get together to stop anymore redundancy in
engineering.why are the unions so quiet and doing nothing.they have to show some
leadership


Dont think they can do anything any FWA stuff is just a farce anyway .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FWA is so bloody disappointing but we keep trying. Every now and then we win a case or part of one. We have Forstaff in FWA now over what they are doing there.

Maybe its quiet but I don't think you'll ever get a running commentary about ongoing negotiations.

This is very true. We are meeting at least twice a week. It is very taxing and any notice would almost be superceeded within 2 days.

[Kiwiconehead]

Everything is growing in Asia

I am in KL now and MAS are looking for 800 more in engineering.

No expats yet but it will come

[Bagus]

AMWU and AWU has a good relationship with politician, why arent they lobbying them and it is election time .Show some unity otherwise QF is getting thick headed making Australian redundant and offshoring work.

[Sunfish]

Bagus, the politicians and would be politicians in the unions are in it for themselves. LAMES don't have enough votes to matter.

[rivet head]

Have to agree about the wall of silence , especially from AWU.Everytime theres a 'meeting' they say there's nothing to report.Then they say we can't say what went down at meetings because it might upset people'. We are allready upset you morons.Whose side are you on!ALAEA are at least keeping their brothers informed a whole lot better than the so called WORKERS UNION. Livvy really does have some pull.

[Jethro Gibbs]

The Cone of Silence is operation #agent86:ok:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

The ALAEA has not been silent. Notices have been issued to members. Just did a quick check and counted at least 3 related to avalon redundancies. Notices from unions are provided for the benefit of union members. If you are not a member then you have nothing to complain about.

[Ngineer]

Heard a rumor from a fella in MOC that CN's job is starting to look a bit shaky.

[rivet head]

Agreed Brissy,and yes I am a member of the association.Just meant to say that the ame's are not being told anything by their reps.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

I hear ya rivethead. Australia's Worst Union is more interested in power than their membership. I hold them soley responsible for the state of the labor party at present. Someone else posting here seems to continually ridicule unions perceived lack of action a whole, yet refuses to tells us if he is a member.

[ampclamp]

Brissy sparky, sadly I do think you are right. There a few very powerful unions with a lot of influence in the parliamentary labor party.

I think the vast majority of union people and members are decent folk doing their best, but wear the taint of the power brokers and those who prosper and gain power at the expense of their members.

The conservatives, who are not our friends industrially, will use this to demonise the the entire labor movement and the party who should be fighting with us, not against us.

Ngineer, Q engineers can only hope that your rumour is true. I am certain he is under pressure to cut costs in engineering, that is his brief. If costs are not coming down in the time-frame given they may just find someone else, (again).

[Clipped]

CN's job is starting to look a bit shaky

This is from a genius of a man who has recently stated - that thinking innovatively, it is better to buy new CFM56 engines than repair them.

Now that this clown and his merry men have helped close down engine overhaul facilities in this country can he proclaim such a thought.

[600ft-lb]

I had a good laugh when I saw the domestic lift update, about how they're 'refreshing' the CFM56's.

The amazing logic that new engines use less fuel than old engines. Am I living in the twilight zone ? Now its cheaper to get new ones after they closed down their own overhaul facility that churned out good engines year after year in all of the forms that the facility had over the many dozen years it was in existence ?

I wouldn't be suprised if that funny thing that happens once you remove all of the competition from a market happened in the case of engine overhauls.

As in the price went up!

Shut it down guys and sign it all over to us - we'll give you a great deal if you do!

[Twin Beech]

I have been following this thread for some weeks now, and am aghast at the inhumane behaviour of engineering 'management'. What possible happy outcome can they expect from such a strategy? How can they convince themselves that sheer bastardry will overcome the mechanical realities of operating compex contrivances like aeroplanes without an engaged engineering workforce?

I am but a simple (as opposed to humble) pilot, yet even I can see from my pit of ignorance that complex devices might need, from time to time, expert care. Today I had the bittersweet pleasure of informing a ' manager' that his delay was purely the result of a profoundly pissed-off workforce, and that presently most of us seem hell-bent on ******* up this airline rather than advancing it. Not (with Seinfeld raised hands) that there's anything wrong with that. Since the executive branch seem to be wallowing in willfully ignorant self-congratulatory hyperbole it falls to us to provide concrete evidence that their scorched-earth policies may just result in....scorched earth.

For the first time in this particular walking-dead-man of an airline, it seems to me that most staff will, instead of doing everything in their power to advance the company, will do anything to blame management. Even if that means destroying the airline.

Today I was staff travelling on a delayed flight. The gate staff, the duty managers, me and my cohorts were all telling the pax war stories regarding what **** heads the executives are, and that all of their woes are the result of corporate policies. The funny thing is that none of the commercial pax seemed to be surprised at this news.

Every time I fly I buy a beer for every defect the other pilots can log. Is that wrong?

[Sunfish]

Ngineer:

CN's job is starting to look a bit shaky

A useful senior management strategy (if you are an arsehole) is to employ a head kicker to roughen up a division and fire a lot of people, creating a lot of stress and anger among the remaining employees in the process.

Once the dirty deeds have been done, you fire the headkicker, blame everything bad on him, and hire Miss Pollyanna as the new manager. She is all sweetness and kindness and smoothes over all those furrowed brows among the employees. She gets everyone working productively and trusting her and the company again....... until the next time.

[ampclamp]

Twin Beech. Sad but true. Rather than working around the problems any airline can have it seems to me nearly everyone is rubbing every single stuff up ,systemic or logistical inadequacy in their faces with absolutely no regret.

[33 Disengage]

Quite a few of the Ops managers are now stating that CN's strategy is a train wreck waiting to happen. The end game doesn't look good for anyone in QE. And that's from people who have previously supported him!

[600ft-lb]

Maybe said ops mgr's now know they're in the firing line and are willing to dissent.

But Qantas is not a democracy, the line managers either tow the line or they get the boot. Have you noticed that:

-They send out pre-scripted 'managers information packs' telling them what to say
-They send out HR staff to monitor/police what they say, no doubt just in case they interject with some truth

Now that they have Maintenix, they also now how the ability to run quick analytics on the workforce. Everyone needs to make damn sure they treat their day to day as an astute business would, as in logging every fault into maintenix.

[Nudlaug]

This is from a genius of a man who has recently stated - that thinking innovatively, it is better to buy new CFM56 engines than repair them

That video was the biggest oxy moron i have ever witnessed, and i have been in a few dodgy places over the decades. I have no clue how something like this can even make it out in the open without the responsible person being given CR! Innovative way of doing business? Putting new engines on? What's next? Here is an idea, let's be even more innovative and replace not just the engine, but all aircrafts with new ones. Now that's real innovation and will save money. Forget painting them with the new super duper paint, just get a new one. Whole fleet refreshed, 1.5% fuel savings, max innovation achieved :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

They're either completely brain dead or got rid of engine overhaul, can't get their engines maintained and now have to sell it as a great idea to replace em with new ones.....

[ampclamp]

Nudlaug , it sounds like someone making a virtue out of a mistake.

[Romulus]

This is from a genius of a man who has recently stated - that thinking innovatively, it is better to buy new CFM56 engines than repair them.

If GE have put a changeover price in place low enough then perhaps it is.

Do you have any figures to the contrary? Or just supposition?

From Wiki, so not an authoritative source but something worth considering

CFM56-7B "Evolution"

In 2009, CFMI announced the latest upgrade to the CFM56 engine, the "CFM56-7B Evolution" or CFM56-7BE. This upgrade, announced alongside Boeing's newest 737 variant, further enhances the high- and low-pressure turbines with better aerodynamics, as well as improving engine cooling, and aims to reduce overall part count.

CFMI expected the changes to result in a 4% reduction in maintenance costs and a 1% improvement in fuel consumption (2% improvement including the airframe changes for the new 737); however, flight and ground tests completed in May 2010 revealed that the fuel burn improvement was better than expected at 1.6%.

Following 450 hours of testing, the CFM56-7BE engine was certified by FAA and EASA on 30 July 2010.

1.6% fuel saving and 4% maintenance.

Pretty significant methinks.

[booglaboy]

And airbus told Qf the 380 a-chks take 50 man hrs. Manufacturers can claim whatever they like. Reality is a different beast

[Romulus]

And airbus told Qf the 380 a-chks take 50 man hrs. Manufacturers can claim whatever they like. Reality is a different beast

I assume you read the part about "however, flight and ground tests completed in May 2010 revealed that the fuel burn improvement was better than expected at 1.6%".

I'd be guessing but a 1.6% fuel saving counts as "substantial" methinks.

[booglaboy]

Flt and grd tests performed by cfm? It's a similar principle the car manufacturers use when quoting fuel consumption. No one ever achieves those results in the real world. Just my opinion

[Annulus Filler]

Heard a rumor from a fella in MOC that CN's job is starting to look a bit shaky.
MXI should see the the death of CN. This White Elephant was meant to get rid of hundreds of jobs, when in actual fact, it requires much many more. I'd expect, AJ and the Board will require a 'Please Explain', 'where did our $750M go?'.
Try explaining that to the Shareholders.

[ampclamp]

750 million? The number gets bigger all the time. I hear the line guys are over the moon about how good it works:{

[rtv]

Have been told its more like 1.2 billion when you take into account al the additional hardware , the premises rental for over 300 at its peak , ect ect

[the_company_spy]

The place is gradually grinding to a halt. Maintenance On Demand, MXI, redundancys and a deferral rate through the roof. If no one is asking serious questions now then they should be.

[Clipped]

Pretty significant methinks

Ah, believing the glossy brochure - again. Promises. The 787, 'game changer', comes to mind.

How can decades of engine overhaul philosophy be caned with this one upgrade. Buy new, throw out the old.

'Who'll buy into our little scam'? 'I know someone high up in QE'.

[Romulus]

Ah, believing the glossy brochure - again. Promises. The 787, 'game changer', comes to mind.

Seems to be backed up by the testing.

Equally rather than just straight negativity do you have any info on the matter?

[AEROMEDIC]

It's a grey area of cost / benefit.

The costs of upgrading engines or buying new ones are going to be very expensive for a couple of reasons.

The first is buy/ lease back financing. These costs will be about 0.80-0.82% per month of the list price of about $10 mill which has to eat into margins, even with the fuel and maintenance savings.

The second is, that an operator will have to do a lot of "wheeling and dealing" to ensure that the list price will stay affordable as these high thrust engines are also in high demand.

Upgrading the modules may be the answer assuming there's still good life left, but depending on the version, an upgrade can still cost up to $4 mill.

Buy or upgrade? Lots of homework for the bean counters I'd say, and CN may not have the credentials for this task.

[Nudlaug]

Romulus, no one denies improved fuel burn and even maintenance on an improved, upgraded engine. And you'd get them whenever your old donk's require more expensive overhaul than replacement, even earlier since an upgraded package delivers extra incentives.
BUT the way i understood the video it's not about an upgraded engine package that delivers extra savings and you'd take up whenever your engines are due for replacement but rather the motto "no more overhaul, but engine replacements instead". And i highly doubt that it's cheaper to put a brand spanking new engine any time an overhaul is due than doing the overhaul.
Unless the video meant to convey that in fact they are getting upgraded engines once off which it then miserably failed to get across. Either way the video was/is an embarrassment and complete and utter failure, like any other communication the company has produced in the last 10 years. It's embarrassing. I am embarrassed to work under those clowns, because they have no f***ing clue on so many levels it's beyond a joke.

[Gas Bags]

It is all to do with budgets. In this age short term budgets are all that matters. Lets make this quarters budget at all cost. Consequences can be dealt with in a future quarters budget. As a long term employee it is very hard to think along those terms.

Not saying it is correct but most senior management have a short term contract and they have to achieve those goals. They are different to the average employee who looks long term.

Years ago at Ansett the business as a whole operated under different ideals. For example the business realised that they had a need for many motor vehicles. They took the long term view and bought a car dealership to cater for that demand. i.e. keep the profits within the group.

The new age is not allowed to think long term like that as they have a different agenda.

Unfortunately as an employee under the new age rationale you are supposed to have the short term business strategy without the bonuses involved for the senior members of the team.

GB

[Sunfish]

Given the state of the U.S. and European economies, my guess would be that there is some very, very attactive finance and prices attached to new engines, so it may well make sense financially in the current environment.

The question then leads on to "life cycle cost" calculations. This is where it can get tricky because you have to make assumptions about future exchange rates. Being a control freak, I don't like the idea of not maintaining and overhauling everything in Australia.

If China vs. Japan hots up or China vs. The Phillippines, then sending stuff to Asia for maintenance is not going to appear wise.

To put that another way, unless there are scores of MRO's all over the world touting for your business all the time, then it is not going to be a competitive market and your supplier is going to have his hands around your trusting little throat pretty quick.

[The Black Panther]

Is AJ on a 457?

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon sackings continue under the Cone of Silence .

[buttmonkey1]

Is AJ on a 457?

Who knows, management is full of unaustralian people.
Even Gillard has 457 visa holders working in her government. Take John McTernan,
Gillards communications director, ABC news confirmed he is here on one.

[cvrurass]

Licience cull to start Monday. No word on FWA ALAEA consultation issues.

[swiped]

cvurass, Poor form to just put that general statement out there with no info. Most people are feeling a little uncomfortable these days without some random comment. Can you divulge any other info like where you heard this? Which area? Numbers? mmmm

[Silverado]

Is AJ on a 457?

Last time I checked, Australians don't need a visa to work in Australia.

[The Black Panther]

Last time I checked, Australians don't need a visa to work in Australia. What part of Australia has that accent?

Getting off track. Sure AJ's a naturalised Australian of 9 years, heck I've been in Qantas longer than he's been in Australia.

I just don't want anyone getting a tap on the should while we have any 457's working in the aviation industry in Australia. That's the point here. If you know of any organisation tell the immigration department, tell a politician, tell a industry representative.