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Pterois Volitans
21st Nov 2012, 22:15
Just after some advice as to what to do! As you are aware QF is making redundant 204 engineers and I could be one of those to go. (I do not believe they will get the VR they are after)
Having read the current EBA’s both for the LAME’S and AME’sI am struggling to find out how they will select the people for CR. It is my opinion that A380/H96 people will be spared and they will target the “legacy” people. Will current up-skillers be classed as fully time served AME? Will it be a performance related selection??
Is it worth “hanging around” waiting for the tap on the shoulder or jump if you have a chance? I would just like to know my odds of having a job in the New Year. Also what will happen after the redundancies have finished? Will a new engineering department grow from the ashes! or just less people and even worse career prospects.
Like I stated at the start, just after some advice as what to do. It is the unknown which is the worst bit.
Pterois Volitans

Wellwellwell
21st Nov 2012, 22:26
I suggest you talk to your union as they have been discussing this with Qantas. Also, there should be plenty of access to your management team to ask questions.

Pterois Volitans
21st Nov 2012, 23:14
Having spoken to the unions and the managment, I am still in the position as to whether the axe will fall in my direction! Like most people I think, I want to know if my job is safe. I guess I will have to wait to see what the numbers are for VR at the end of the month.

PV

Jethro Gibbs
21st Nov 2012, 23:32
Unless you have something to go to make them Force you out why help them by taking VR :ok:

mister hilter
22nd Nov 2012, 00:08
PV,
you've raised more questions than answers.

Are you single or married; chilidren or none?
How old are you?
Are you licensed or not?

The answers to these questions should at least help you form a plan of what you want to do.

If you are tapped (or decide to go) do you have an alternative? This will depend on your answers to the above questions. Note: there are some who want to go and others who have the attitdude, "Screw 'em. If they want to sack me they can, but I won't make it easy for them'. Do you fall into either category?

Have they offered, and have you thought about redeployment? That used to be an option with a 90 day 'trial'. If it is an option this time around, that may be worth looking at.

Finally it is your decision (unless you are tapped). You can talk to as many friends as you like, but their advice will depend on their own plans - not yours. Likewise union advice will be practical but still your ultimate decision. Forget management or HR unless you are asking your payout figure. They have quotas and want 204 people to go and don't care who - just so long as 204 go.

Edit:
How many years service do you have? This will determine your payout and therefore how long you can afford to be without a source of income.

Pith Helmet
22nd Nov 2012, 04:27
Best of fighting to the bitter end. Better to die on your feet than on your knees. I am about to receive my marching orders as well.
Whatever the outcome is for anybody within the group, best of luck and in god's speed.

PH

Ngineer
22nd Nov 2012, 08:01
PV,
you've raised more questions than answers.

Are you single or married; chilidren or none?
How old are you?
Are you licensed or not?

The answers to these questions should at least help you form a plan of what you want to do.


Totally agree.

And at the end of the day we are probably all dead men walking. (They just wont let us in on their little surprises).

rivet head
22nd Nov 2012, 10:13
I'll be using the old saying "Don't volunteer for anything" as my guide.Though I sometimes wish they would hurry up instead of prolonging the agony. There's another thing that gets me, its the way some of the younger guys, especially L\H that have got there 330 licence, are strutting around like there untouchable and its buisness as usual.Quite sad really.

pull-up-terrain
22nd Nov 2012, 10:20
They havent mentioned who they are targeting, but i would be worried if you dont hold an A380, A330 or a 737 licence.
I have sent an application to Emirates, and i have a job lined up at the local car mechanic (i know 2 other LAME's who have lined up work as a car mechanic). But thats only if i do lose my job.

Jethro Gibbs
22nd Nov 2012, 11:03
I suggest you talk to your union


AWU & ALAEA Got heated with each other at Avalon meeting today so seeking advice from either dont seem like a good idea because they dont seem to know whats going on .

AEROMEDIC
22nd Nov 2012, 11:11
You can be sure that young guys are thinking the same things that you are. The difference is that they may not have the same kind of commitments as the older guys have that a payout won't fix, so things sit a bit easier.
Those that are left won't necessarily be young or brown nosers, and there is a need for most classifications, just fewer numbers.
It's true that fairness on the selection of those who go CR will not exist, but there are always surprises and the unexpected, so not all is a given.
I know this because I've been through two such events and it's never pleasant to see your friends disappear from the industry, but after the second, I found I could do better outside the industry.
In time though, (2-3 years) on both occasions, recruiting happens again because the management ALWAYS let go more than they should. That's no real comfort I know but it s a reality.
I wish all you guys (and girls) well during this and good luck.
:ok::ok::ok:

opalops
22nd Nov 2012, 11:36
When I got made redundant on the shutting of Heavy Maintenance in 2006
I took the redundancy and what unpreserved super and suck it straight on the mortgage, it helped with the financial Burden well for me anyway.
I found that once I got over the panics of o m g what am I going to do
there was work out there, well back then anyway you just need to look,
Spent 2 years in the real world and it wasn't bad,But Im glad I"m back !!
Guy/Girls My thoughts are with you and wishing you all the best
:D
Cheers
Opal

Just One other thing if Qantas are putting work shops for life after qantas
and hope they do,I found it very painful to go there,but found it very helpful well for me.

empire4
22nd Nov 2012, 11:41
Work out what your payout would/will be. Do you have any debt/mortgage etc. Are you ok with moving state/country? What licenses do you have?

The job market for LAMEs/AMEs is very very tough. If you only have a 767/747/744 license you have little to no chance of getting a LAME job anywhere in the world. I know people with full B1 licenses with B767, B744 & B737-NG who struggle to get a jobs. I know some gents who moved off the floor and went to Virgin due to lack of LAME jobs.

I would only "jump ship" if you are an AME and you get a job at jetstar or virgin. Other than that depending how old you are I would maybe think of changing careers. The biggest thing everyone at QF are going to have to realise is you are not going to find a job that pays what you're on unless you go to the mines etc and thats not as easy as Gillard makes out. good luck.

QF94
22nd Nov 2012, 13:08
Just after some advice as to what to do! As you are aware QF is making redundant 204 engineers and I could be one of those to go. (I do not believe they will get the VR they are after)
Having read the current EBA’s both for the LAME’S and AME’sI am struggling to find out how they will select the people for CR. It is my opinion that A380/H96 people will be spared and they will target the “legacy” people.

This may be true about the A380/H96, but then again, maybe not. They employed a lot of A380 people on the assumption that they were getting more A380's than they already have or are getting.


Will current up-skillers be classed as fully time served AME? Will it be a performance related selection??
Is it worth “hanging around” waiting for the tap on the shoulder or jump if you have a chance? I would just like to know my odds of having a job in the New Year. Also what will happen after the redundancies have finished? Will a new engineering department grow from the ashes! or just less people and even worse career prospects.

We are all in the same boat. I am treating myself as though I could be in this lot of redundancies, or the next one behind it. I am waiting for the tap. Like a lot of guys, I have a mortgage, kids and won't choose to go, but if told to go, then I have no choice but to go. I am of the assumption that if given CR, you don't have to wait as long for unemployment benefits than if you take VR. I could be wrong on this one. Who knows how they will choose those to go? I'm sure there are private black lists or hit lists, and these could be used.


Like I stated at the start, just after some advice as what to do. It is the unknown which is the worst bit.

The ultimate decision is yours. You have to take into account your financial situation, whether you have a job lined up, if you're tied to a family or mortgage, etc etc.

Hope this helps.

empire4
22nd Nov 2012, 15:41
FYI- there is no legal difference between CR or VR. It is simply that your position is made redundant and if you choose to go your "Certificate of service" from QF will simply say "redundant" and not if it was compulsory or voluntarily.

Syd eng
22nd Nov 2012, 17:24
I think more may jump now than what most guys think. I know of a few that are very close to considering it or have already done so. It certainly wont be the full 200 but maybe close to the 40-50 mark. have heard the number overall is around 25-30 already.

ALAEA Fed Sec
22nd Nov 2012, 18:53
These original questions have no exact answers yet and would be subjective. I would generally think it best to wait until the close is called for volunteers. It is after then that transfers fall and then consideration of how CR would be selected.


AWU & ALAEA Got heated with each other at Avalon meeting today

No they didn't. Some Engineers on the floor tore into the AWU Rep because they want people selected to go to come from a skills matrix made up by management. A matrix where you get more points for less absences or if you play golf with your boss. The Reps themselves got on fine.

BP2197
22nd Nov 2012, 19:12
Regardless of your outcome from this round, it would be prudent for all to look at increasing their level of education and transferable skills. Now is a great time to enroll in course for 2013. It might offer you more choices if the worst happens or maybe an opportunity for a bit of cash on the side you stay.

ALAEA Fed Sec
22nd Nov 2012, 20:12
Regardless of your outcome from this round, it would be prudent for all to look at increasing their level of education and transferable skills.

Fully agree. I would be making the absolute most out of those careers centres they are allowing you to attend during work time.

Short_Circuit
23rd Nov 2012, 02:27
If you know your are on the list, why volunteer to go? There would be no appeal against that.

Pterois Volitans
23rd Nov 2012, 03:22
Thanks for all the advice and support, however I will not jump unless pushed. Retraining is an option, but relocation is not on the cards.
But the answer I am looking for is how will they select the people to go for CR.
I just want to try and work out whether I will be close or not? they seems to be no set process in current EBA's.

Short_Circuit
23rd Nov 2012, 03:27
To be on the list;

1/ No Airbus types
2/ Div 1 or 2 super
3/ Over 45
4/ B2
and in that order. The more you look like the above the more likely you are on the list. Sorry guys.. :sad:

Pterois Volitans
23rd Nov 2012, 03:38
Thats for the LAME's, what about the AME's?

Short_Circuit
23rd Nov 2012, 03:45
AME
1/ Div 1 or 2 super
2/ Over 35
3/ Mech or Avion

Dunnocks
23rd Nov 2012, 04:19
Given neither unions or management have discussed the criteria, any of the foregoing is guesswork at best.
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly..

Arnold E
23rd Nov 2012, 04:30
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly.

I have been made redundant 4 times (yep 4), they will never admit age comes into consideration, but it does.:(

Romulus
23rd Nov 2012, 05:02
If you know your are on the list, why volunteer to go? There would be no appeal against that.

Sometimes there is an advantage in being first out the door, you beat the rush and may have an opportunity to get an alternate position ahead of everyone else competing for it.

Not always the case but given the scale of redundancies and the area in question it MAY be something wroth considering.

But absolutely definitely consult your Union. There are times Unions overstep their mark, but this isn't one of them. Get your money's worth, they are (or should be given it is their defined role) experts on your side of the field.

ALAEA Fed Sec
23rd Nov 2012, 06:24
Thnx Romulus.

ALAEA are meeting with management 10.00 Monday. All Sydney Execs to attend. Mark Gant, Wayne Vasta, Bobby McGee and Brad Cox. Reps Chris Burleigh, Ross Richardson and Andrew Joppling. The above should be able to answer any questions.

I will be there too with Paul Cousins our President.

rtv
23rd Nov 2012, 07:43
They cannot use age or super division, look at your award.. Not only that but it's discrimination and bloody obvious if a couple hundred over 50 year olds get sacked .. Yep airbus guys are safe , sparkies safe as well .

QF94
23rd Nov 2012, 09:12
They cannot use age or super division, look at your award.. Not only that but it's discrimination and bloody obvious if a couple hundred over 50 year olds get sacked .. Yep airbus guys are safe , sparkies safe as well .

Technically and legally correct. Nothing stopping them though taking a fair percentage of the >45 - 50 or Super 1 and 2, and spreading the rest of the numbers amongst the others.

I wouldn't say sparkies are safe, as they are B2 licence. B1 has a greater coverage including mechanical and avionics. B2 is just avionics.

If you've only got 330, you may not be as safe as you think, and there will be an overabundance of A380 guys, as the company employed numbers that would have serviced the original 20 A380's they were going to get. Now it's only 12 and they have too many A380 guys in the hangars and the terminal.

There is no set procedure of how the culling will go, but it ain't gonna be pretty, no matter the way it is done.

Not to worry, those who don't go yet, will get another shot down the track.

Romulus
23rd Nov 2012, 10:27
Consolidated Award (http://www.fwa.gov.au/consolidated_awards/AP/AP839983/asframe.html)

Start with Clause 16.

Bear in mind things in this space are never that simple, there will be a lot of history and precedents established as to how things will be done. This is where your Union is particularly useful, they've had to do this before, it is a "core part of their business" and the odds are they have far better knowledge of how it should be done than most management who simply (and correctly) don't have this as part of their skillset. They will have HR backing them up.

There's a reason a lot of the Industrial Relations type HR people are paoched from a Union background, simply put they are far better trained and far harder in this space than regulation HR or corporate types who are drilled in so called "win-win" negotiations.

There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.

Best of luck with this and for the future, I'd love to see a vibrant aviation engineering capability in Australia but the simple fact is that it's another sector where we look far too expensive on a spreadsheet. I'm hearing that, fully costed (i.e. with all overheads, business costs and profit margin added on), overseas MROs are providing LAMEs at US$35 per hour. Australian fully loaded costs are somewhere between 3 and 4.5 times that figure in Aus$.

And with the high Australian dollar that US$35 is effectively Aus$35 so at a minimum a saving of $65 per LAME hour makes it very easy to recoup the costs of ferry flights etc. and QF only get charged for the hours worked on the aircraft, they have no labour holding costs in white space etc.

Tough times for a truly interesting and fascinating industry, hopefully someone figures out a way to keep as much of it within this country as possible and they get all the support from both business and labour that is needed.

Romulus
23rd Nov 2012, 10:34
QF94, it will be operational requirements if / when people are tapped Even if it is dressed up that way it will plausibly be operational requirements.

How they pick between identically qualified individuals will be ugly.
It is going be a harrowing time ....

Clause 16.1.5: "16.1.5 Redundancy means a declaration by the Company that an employee or employees are surplus to labour requirements because the quantity of the work has diminished."

The ONLY definition of Redundancy is diminished quantity of work.

Theoretically that defines the skillsets that will be "downsized", furthermore it could be argued that when identically qualified individuals must be differentiated then whoever can be shown to have a diminished workload is the unfortunate party (i.e. if one has a diminished workload and another does not then the definition of Redundancy means the reduced workload party is chosen).

As I said previously, it is never clear in this situation, it comes down to negotiation. SP or whoever can tie up massive management resources trying to sort it out, normally managers' don't have time to get so involved so sweeteners may be offered to encourage more "volunteers".

That's the headspace you need to get yourself in, you KNOW what the end outcome will be, you need to be thinking how best to look after your position.

Workers Perspective
23rd Nov 2012, 10:54
Regarding Lame CR criteria, and with all things being equal, years of continuous service with the company coupled with years of financial membership with the ALAEA would seem like a reasonable filter that the union may suggest for any selection criteria.

Redstone
23rd Nov 2012, 11:13
Romulus, I'm not sure how these mro's hide their costs however $35 an hour will not buy you an experienced LAME who will be able to fix your aeroplane. This may be the cost of a signature to pen off work but more likely the cost is offset by super cheap non licenced labour. That is where the savings are.

Hugh Mungous
23rd Nov 2012, 11:36
Very interested to hear what other industries, or avenues for employment people are currently investigating.. What other industries or roles does our skill set translate to?? Wishing everyone involved all the best over the next few months..

Romulus
23rd Nov 2012, 11:37
Romulus, I'm not sure how these mro's hide their costs however $35 an hour will not buy you an experienced LAME who will be able to fix your aeroplane. This may be the cost of a signature to pen off work but more likely the cost is offset by super cheap non licenced labour. That is where the savings are.

No questions there Red, but provided the work is ticked of by CASA then it complies with requirements and it's a VERY hard argument to break.

It may well be they are taking a loss simply to keep people busy and are awaiting the upturn.

Either way it spells major problems for local people and businesses. How we respond to that determines the future of the industry.

AEROMEDIC
23rd Nov 2012, 12:01
There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.

Romulus,

This company will keep it simple. They see no value in doing otherwise because of the time they spend with each of the out going employees. This is a process they want to be as quick as possible.
There is no history of extras with this company in these matters. Packages have already been sorted and they will keep who they want despite any protests.
If the unions can improve their members lot, I'd be surprised but very pleased for them.
Planning for your future is the best thing and as I have said in a previous post, in 2-3 years, these turkeys will find that that they have overdone the redundancies and will want to re-hire again. They have done it a few times before and they will do it again.
Either way it spells major problems for local people and businesses. How we respond to that determines the future of the industry.

I'm concerned for all those affected by this and I really hate the unbending attitude coming from this company and the lack of concern about the lives they are going to change. The future of industry is not determined by one airline thankfully, but it's certainly not clear.

thorn bird
23rd Nov 2012, 12:18
God I feel so sorry for you guys caught up in this tragedy,is overseas an option? I've been told OZ licences are not accepted overseas. Is this true?

empire4
23rd Nov 2012, 13:37
Oz licenses are excepted in China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Middle East and NZ. You still have to sit air leg. Hong Kong will need you to do all the elec modules if you don't have full B1. The problem is that jobs are limited in those countries and they will want 3 types which pretty much aren't the ones QF guys have got. Either get on a A330?B777 course or look for another career.

As far as the cost of Australia.........Virgin Australia just sent a 737NG to Nashville (east coast of US) for a heavy check. You do the math on that one.

The Black Panther
23rd Nov 2012, 18:53
What is another knock down observation is how in the past 3 years the Qantas middle management has just grown and grown. I wonder what some of these muppets do during a day. It isn't reading books on subjects like "Getting the most from your employees", or "Negotiating win win outcomes".

AEROMEDIC
23rd Nov 2012, 20:45
No, they don't do that.

Their biggest challenge is to justify their own job. The yardstick that is used to measure performance above others is the savings in their department. The easiest way to get under budget is to reduce staff. The remaining staff soldier on under duress believing that any one of them could be NEXT.
Meanwhile, management meetings become mutual admiration societies soaking in their self belief and bonuses before planning the next staff reduction.

Upper management KPI's are similar except there's fewer staff from which to choose, so the KPI's are set lower e.g turn up for work, attend the minimum number of meetings, ensure lunches include 1986 Grange, tick off the monthly meeting location from the international sites ensuring that the same location isn't used twice in a year. Whew..!, the pressure is amazing.

rmm
23rd Nov 2012, 21:27
these turkeys will find that that they have overdone the redundancies and will want to re-hire again.

Wasn't that the case when the current QF engineering head left AirNZ?

AEROMEDIC
23rd Nov 2012, 23:38
It's always the case.

They just don't have the ability to see what staff numbers in all categories are required to effectively complete the maintenance plan.

That's why there may be surprises during the progress of the redundancy. But that's not saying there will be.....just the reason if there is.

Avalon is different in that the vast majority are Forstaff contractors and the place will close down Qantas numbers are minimal to be affected and it's my understanding VR and transfers will take care of that.

Jethro Gibbs
23rd Nov 2012, 23:56
Forstaff employees are not contractors they are fulltime employees of Forstaff and Forstaff is a contractor to Qantas there one and only customer ever so when Qantas goes Forstaff have no Business and there only facility on site is a rented office they do not own any tooling or equipment apart for some computers a couple of pens and a paper clips .
AS for the Talk of so called Re Training this is nothing more than seeing a Centrelink Job search contractor most of who which won the contract because they bid the lowest price to the Government and are next to Useless .

QF22
24th Nov 2012, 00:32
Empire 4
You can add Singapore to that list, and SIAEC, SASCO, and ST Aerospace are always looking for good people.
Its true a full B1 on 777, 330 and 320 would help, especially for line.
But SIAEC and the others would possibly accept a single type rating for heavy maintenance, and you dont need B1 to work in the shed.
If anybody is interested email [email protected] they are recruiting for line and heavy in Singapore and Heavy in Shanghai.
For general info your welcome to email me at [email protected]
Cheers !

AEROMEDIC
24th Nov 2012, 11:00
Jethro,

Yes, you are right in describing the Forstaff people as full time employees of Forstaff.

I did mean to say that Forstaff Aviation was the contractor to Qantas rather than describing the staff as contractors.
My apologies on that. As I was typing it just came out differently to what I was intending to say.

Managers Perspective
24th Nov 2012, 18:24
To really assist people continue their career and improve their re-employment chances they should have run A380 / A330 courses at no cost for the guys stuck with less desirable licences.

Company picks up the tab for the course, attendees cover their costs, now that's releasing people with best intent.

MP.

empire4
24th Nov 2012, 20:12
QF22;

Just emailed AJI. No positions unless you have A320/A330 or B777. I do not know if you know that MAS have shed all the contractors and expats. Singapore only want you with A330/B777 or A380. They have no more B744. Massive volume of guys in Asia with lots of types and no jobs.......

Like I said previously, I would seriously look at a new career depending on how deep in you are. The industry world wide has been crippled.

QF22
24th Nov 2012, 23:38
empire 4
I will check with AJI.
They did have B744 positions in SIAEC and Shanghai Heavy Maint.
Yes you will need a B1 on 320,330 or 777 for line.
There are still expats working at MAS, and AJI do still have contacts in KL.
HAECO were also advertising for B1s recently on Aviation Job Search | jobs | Choose from 1,340 live vacancies (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com) and flightglobaljobs.com (http://www.flightglobaljobs.com)
The only other options would be EK,EY and QR, but they generally want an A330 or B777 also.
GLTA !

QF22
25th Nov 2012, 02:08
At a guess i would say this is HAECO, you can check there website direct also.

Recruiter Line Up Aviation Personnel Posted12 November 2012 Ref J5804 Location Hong Kong, Asia Sector Maintenance, Licensed Maintenance - Base, Licensed Maintenance - Line Job Role Engineers, Avionics Engineer, B1 Licensed Engineer, B2 Licensed Engineer Contract Type Contract / Seasonal Hours Full Time Aircraft Type Airbus, A318 / A319 / A320 / A321, A330, A340, Boeing, 747-200/300, 747-400, 777-200 / 300 Salary Competitive with Benefits
Apply now
Further information
B1 Licensed Engineers - Hong Kong

We are currently recruiting a number of B1 Licensed Engineers for one of our clients in Hong Kong on an initial two year contract which could be extended. This is an ongoing recruitment effort and we will be looking for staff up until Mid 2013. Get your application started now so you don't miss out later!

Main Duties:

Plan, lead and supervise aircraft maintenance checks;
Identify and rectify problems and defect;
Coordinate and interact with various departments to accomplish maintenance work;
Establish and maintain good business relationship with customers; and
Any other duties as assigned
The successful candidates will have a valid JAR-66 B1 or ICAO Type II Licence with type ratings on 3 or more of the following aircraft types:

B747-400 with RB211/PW4000/CF6
B777 with Trent/GE90
B747-200/300 with RB211/JT9/CF6
A330 with Trent
A340 with CFM56
A320 with V2500
Candidates must have a minimum of 8 years experience in all aspects of aircraft maintenance including servicing, inspections, defect troubleshooting, repair and rectification, and maintenance certification; and willingness to attend shift duties as assigned to meet operational requirements.

In return, our client offers the following:

Very competitive Salary
28 Days annual leave
Insurances
Education Subsidies
Medical and Dental Health Scheme
Bonuses
If you are interested, then please apply by sending the following documentation to Sam Rice ([email protected]) ASAP:

Licence
Passport
EWIS
HF
FTS
Apply now
Line Up Aviation Personnel

QF22
25th Nov 2012, 02:32
Just for info !

B1 & B2 Aircraft Licensed Engineer
Recruiter Gulf Aviation Technology [995635] Posted11 November 2012 Ref GATCO AD 002 Location Middle East Sector Aircraft, Airport, Maintenance, Licensed Maintenance - Base, Licensed Maintenance - Line Job Role Engineers, Avionics Engineer, Mechanic, B1 Licensed Engineer, B2 Licensed Engineer Contract Type Permanent Hours Full Time Aircraft Type Airbus, A300 - 600 (GE CF6), A300 - 600ST, A318 / A319 / A320 / A321, A330, A340, A380, Boeing, DC-8, DC-9, MD-80, DC-10 / MD-10, MD-11, 737-100 / 0200, 737-300 / 400 / 500, 737-600 / 700 / 800 / 900, 747-100, 747-200/300, 747-400, 757-200 / 300, 767-200 / 300, 777-200 / 300, Embraer, 170, 175, 190 Salary Up to USD 70,000 per annum plus benefits
Apply now
Further information


Gulf Aviation Technology is currently looking for B1 & B2 Licensed Aircraft Engineer for Embraer 170/190, DC10, MD10, MD80, B757, B767, B737 NG & Classic, Boeing 777, B747-100/200/300/400, A320, A330, A340, and Airbus 300 – 600 for our bases in Middle East.

He will be responsible to carry out the following duties:



• Maintain the aircraft in accordance with an approved Maintenance Schedule.
• Ensure due maintenance is performed on all aircraft in a timely manner in order to meet the Flight Schedule.
• Maintain Continued Airworthiness across the fleet.
• Ensure proper troubleshooting is carried out to justify all parts replacements.
• Be proactive in working closely with the other employees to ensure smooth and safe operation of the Airline.
• Ensure all mandatory occurrence, accident, incident and delay reports are filed as required.
• Lead by example, provide motivation and support your team.
• Provide technical guidance and assistance to subordinates.
• Provide floor level training and support to juniors.
• Ensure a high level of safety standards are maintained within the immediate working area and within the organization.
• Ensure proper tooling, calibrated equipment and work stands are used at all times without any mishandling.
• Return all removed and unused parts, tools and equipment to stores with proper labeling and report any malfunctioning equipment.
• Ensure all maintenance work carried out under his supervision is certified and recorded in accordance with the regulations.





In order to be shortlisted for this position you must meet the following requirements:

Valid Licences: EASA, FAA, GACA, RP-ATO or ICAO type licences

Type rating required on Embraer 170/190, DC 10, MD 10, MD 80, B757, B767, B737 NG & Classic,Boeing 777, B747-100/200/300/400, A320, A330, A340, and Airbus 300 – 600. (must have 2 type ratings)
Minimum 5 years’ experience in Aircraft Line Maintenance.

Apply now

Arnold E
25th Nov 2012, 03:02
All of the above is good, but it does nothing for the young fella's, does it?

QF22
25th Nov 2012, 03:13
I checked with AJI the 744 Heavy Maint job in Singapore is for B2 only.
Also the jobs in Shanghai are for EASA and FAA.
Its a shame CASA never demanded reciprocal arrangements for Aussies to convert from CASA to EASA ! The FAA converion may be a bit easier?
Silkair will be getting 737-800 in 2014, but I have no idea of possible job vacancies if any at this stage.
GLTA !

QF22
25th Nov 2012, 03:44
I am an old bloke like you, there are plenty of older blokes who may find a job overseas to finish up their career.
My dad was a farmer, his advice was to go out and get a trade, glad I did.
Hopefully i can survive a few more years and then call it a day.
My advice to any young blokes out there would be to retrain if possible, but easier said then done !
If aviation is in your blood then good luck, keep training and upgrading your licences if and when possible.
There is a big aviation world out there, but sadly I think the good days are gone.
GLTA !

lamem
25th Nov 2012, 07:36
It's all going to happen again in March. Then we can start the thread all over again. Then there will probably be another round before next Christmas. Will it ever end. Probably not.

Arnold E
25th Nov 2012, 07:54
keep training and upgrading your licences if and when possible.

Errr, how???

empire4
25th Nov 2012, 15:39
exactly Arnold E, we all know you can pay $6000+ for the theory. Getting the PCT is a different story. Where are you going to get the certifying experience from?

These companies that you listed QF22, whilst I agree they are a job, want experience on the aircraft. GAT is in Saudi Arabia. Even I wouldn't go there. I sure as sh!t know not many Aussie wives would either.

QF22
26th Nov 2012, 00:28
Nothing is impossible, i did the 737,738 and A320 myself and got the required SOE for the type rating. My 777 was a company approval that i eventually managed to add to my licence.
Agreed empire 4 there are jobs around, some better than others. If you want to stay in the industry you will chase the jobs, if not i guess its time for a new career.
At my age its too late for a change of career so hopefully i can stay in aviation for another 10 years and then retire.
Everybodys circumstances will be different, it is up to each individual to weigh it up and go whats best for themselves.
GLTA !

1me
27th Nov 2012, 02:06
I'm sure they would love to get rid of some dead wood and more costly employees without current types and other things that count as "redundant due to operational requirements" but not sure how they would go about it.


ampclamp, I hope your references to "dead wood" and those "more costly employees without current types" are two separate things..

binrow
27th Nov 2012, 02:19
Gday All,

It is will allot of sorrow that I read this thread, as I left the red rat 5 years ago after 18 years as a LAME in MEL and BNE HM. I chose to leave and to be honest I'm glad I did.

I spent several years working in the Middle East, Abu Dhabi was home. My wife found life there hard and was one of the reasons we left, money was another.

I have found work outside of the aviation world and would never go back, there is green grass on the other side of the fence, you just have to look for it, I ended up in the mining/gas/construction industry, it is allot of time away from home but the finances are good and the wife is happy. I'm still working on gas turbines CF6 derivatives to be exact and a whole lot of other machinery that I never dreamed I would work with.

Much of the advice on this thread is great, if you wish to stay in Aviation. I would like to offer mine in the hope that I may help one or a few of you guys back on your feet. For you guys as LAME's look outside the box, no one outside of aviation gives a rat’s toss about your LAME tickets, they count for naught, they do care about the responsibility you carried. They do care that you work in a highly skilled and technical position; lateral thinking is need when looking to get away. Think about all the skills that you have that are transferable to other fields, No one else works on Aircraft , they do work on control/instrumentation systems, gas turbines, hydraulics, pneumatics, supervision, planning, and your ability to carry out certifications, trouble shooting, just to name a few.

Get some help with your CV, pay someone to re-write it was worth the cash and time spent, more so if you want to get out.

Don't be afraid to use an employment agency they get paid to find people work by the employers; it’s in their best interest to get you a job.

Seek.com is your best friend, use the search functions. Once again think outside the box when using the key words function. DON’T USE LAME, use gas turbine, instrumentation technician if you’re a sparkie, outside of Aviation and engineer has a degree, some of you guys may but most don’t.

When I returned to Australia I was out of work for 3 months the first job I applied for outside of Aviation I got and I'm still here and very happy. Don't wait for VR/CR, if you want out; get out as soon as you can. Do your sums make some plans around your finances and run with it. There is so much work that you guys can be doing if you want to.

Finally Aviation is a small industry even on a global stage it is tiny, think outside the box, look over the fence. You have some very valuable skills that others will want to use. It’s just up to the individual.

If anyone wants to PM I will gladly speak, have a cold beer with, answer questions and offer any advice I can to help.

Best of luck to you all whatever you decide to do, look upon this as a chance to do something other than what you did yesterday, look to the positive as hard as it may be at times.

Pterois Volitans
27th Nov 2012, 02:23
I understand that “last in first out” is stated in the current procedure. It is taken from your date joining the company NOT from the date in your current section. This is a flawed process!

Because of this there will be people that recently got transferred over from EOC were they were employed as painters/welders/cleaners etc. Following their “up-skilling program (and I use the word loosely) there will now be less likely to be selected for CR.

Why should they have a better chance of surviving the CR,over someone who has served a full apprenticeship, and was selected to work on the aircraft not in workshops. There was a reason they were placed in EOC in the first place.:mad:

On another point, why should a person who has only worked for the company for say 8 years, passed his license exams, done internal courses fuel tank/fork lift/ FDO etc, be made to accept CR when someone has sat on their arse for 15 years and done [email protected]#$$ all. There has to be a fairer process?:ugh:

This is not aimed at the LAME’s as I understand additional type training was and still is selected on which club you belong too or who your father played golf with.
PV

AEROMEDIC
27th Nov 2012, 02:30
Great post, Binrow.

This is the kind of thing that I was hoping for when I posted a while ago.

When redundancy is staring you in the face, and you have ONLY ever been in aviation, it's hard to see yourself anywhere else. To have someone post what they have done since and that it went well is a real positive for all concerned.

There IS life after Qantas....:)

binrow
27th Nov 2012, 02:41
Aero,

No worries, as I stated if you want a chat or ask some questions PM, happy to help. I have never faced the VR/CR that you guys are but there is a big big world outside of the rat.

Syd eng
27th Nov 2012, 03:22
My thoughts exactly Binrow.

Dumb down your resume and explain you job in layman's terms.
Troubleshooting
Man Management
Time Management etc.

Think that you are explaining your job to someone who does not know it is on aircraft but any other piece of machinery/product.

AEROMEDIC
27th Nov 2012, 03:36
Binrow,

Thanks, but I'm fine, as like you, I been there done that. Just putting my two cents worth hoping it helps.

another superlame
27th Nov 2012, 06:55
I agree wholeheartedly with you Binrow, after heavy shutdown I found that whilst you had experience in lots of areas, if you didn't have a certificate for the real world they weren't interested.

It comes down to selling yourself and spelling out what you did. If you can get an interview you need to talk yourself up, you may not have the paper they want, but they can help you achieve that if you sell yourself well.

Job interviews at Qantas are a load of shite. A lot of the time the job has already been decided and they are going through the motions to make it legit.

If you haven't had a job outside of QF or any interview experience speak to other people who have, also you will fiind the questions a lot of places ask are very similiar.

1me
27th Nov 2012, 09:09
Pterois Volitans.. I understand that this is a very emotional topic for you and there are many of us in the same boat but there is no need to deride other guys who have also faithfully served the company for many years. Our stoush should not be with each other but with the company!

I have worked with a number of good engineers who completed their upskilling program and just because someone worked in EOC doesn't necessarily make them any less competent than someone who has spent all their time out on the aircraft. I have also worked with some guys who are completely out of their depth when working on the aircraft (both ex-EOC AND Hangars!)

1me
27th Nov 2012, 09:12
binrow.. :D :ok:

going down-under
27th Nov 2012, 23:39
:ok: @ Binrow :D

nice, positive post

MR WOBBLES
29th Nov 2012, 23:40
Should the government remove AMEs/LAMEs from the 457 visa list now that QF are putting so much new labour on the market.

Jethro Gibbs
29th Nov 2012, 23:44
Let me think YES ages ago :ugh:

Redstone
30th Nov 2012, 03:45
I think "chief executive officer/managing director" is on that same list. Must be a skills shortage in that department in this country??????

Meanwhile the countdown continues.8 hours remaining for vr eoi.

qf 1
30th Nov 2012, 06:38
nicely summed up binrow,there is loads of work out side Qantas,don't waste your talents on people who that doesn't give 2 sh!ts about you,move on;)

Arnold E
30th Nov 2012, 07:49
I think "chief executive officer/managing director" is on that same list. Must be a skills shortage in that department in this country??????

I think that is amply demonstrated.:eek:

ALAEA Fed Sec
30th Nov 2012, 09:00
Chasing some stuff for a court case. Does anyone in Syd or Bne know the Emirates Reps? If so pls pm me. I have heard that EK want Qantas to handle their aircraft and Nassenstein has told them to get nicked.

cheers

Dunnocks
30th Nov 2012, 09:10
Is this an example of 'looking after Mother' to quote on of your earlier posts about NastySwine? Obviously, Mothrer's children must be killed off at all costs...

going postal
30th Nov 2012, 09:33
When do the Lmo national VR's close ?

empire4
30th Nov 2012, 12:29
From an Australian government website.

Aircraft Maintenance Engineers - Job Outlook (http://joboutlook.gov.au/pages/occupation.aspx?code=3231&search&Tab=prospects)

"Employment for Aircraft Maintenance Engineers to 2016-17 is expected to decline."

"The mix of industries employing Aircraft Maintenance Engineers is not favourable for employment growth prospects."

The growth for aircraft maintenance engineers job vacancies is expected to grow -21.3% over the next 2 years. For the layman, over 1/5th jobs lost.

Yet it still remains on the skills shortage list. WHAT A FU$%ING JOKE!

another superlame
1st Dec 2012, 21:53
I wonder if things will be any clearer tomorrow now that the EOI has ended. Or will they drag it out and not let the people who want to leave go when they want to.

This week was flat out with the new crew structure, with seniors spread thin between aircraft, at times only 1 avionics licence to cover 3 or more aircraft. Its going to be awesome when more people go.

borro
2nd Dec 2012, 02:10
Was told earlier this week by a mate based in Syd that only 6 people were interested in relocating to Bris Vegas heavy maint. This certainly would not be what the American cockh??d would of expected.
Anyone prepared to give a guesstimate as to how many Lame's will opt for VR between Syd and Avalon ?.
On the subject of CR I must say I don't believe there're could be a more inept or incompetent group than the current QF HR department. This group have proven inept in the simplest tasks, I shudder to think what a God almighty mess they will make of the complex CR process. I guess though the CR process is only complex if you endeavor to to make it fair and transparent 2 things which have never concerned this group in the past.

On another note
The guys who moved from Tulla to BNE heavy must be at decision time as to staying on or opt out via the 3 month clause. I was told that at least one Tulla guy decided to opt out and head back south. Will this prove to be the exception or the norm ?.
Cheers

Short_Circuit
2nd Dec 2012, 06:27
This week was flat out with the new crew structure, with seniors spread thin between aircraft, at times only 1 avionics licence to cover 3 or more aircraft. Its going to be awesome when more people go.
and when the 1 avionics LAME per crew are CR'ed out, that will leave 0 avionic licences to cove 3 or more aircraft. There are not enough B2 licences to cover each super crew as it is and there is no training in the future. It just won't work! :ugh:

AEROMEDIC
2nd Dec 2012, 08:14
This is when licence holders HAVE to make sure they are checking each and every job for which they are signing.
The blame stops with him/her and there will be no company support, even though the company will push to get the documents signed to met schedules.

No chair......just pressure.

These are the uncontrolled situations and responsibility for work carried out are borne by the B2 signatory.

ConcernedLAME
2nd Dec 2012, 09:38
Problem with guys coming up from the south none will be Snr LAME when they arrive in BNE. I'm sure most will struggle with this concept and may have to bring their tools in from home and learn how to use them again .

As far as I am aware the chap that returned to MEL struggled with the family side of things as both his children were not prepared to move to Brisbane as they are in last years of high school.

Hopefully most guys can get past the uncertainty of moving BNE .... We all did it many years ago and haven't looked back.

There is a massive network of people willing to help all those that do move up.

Jethro Gibbs
2nd Dec 2012, 10:21
Trouble is how long will BNE last no one knows people could move and six months from now it could be all over then what

ALAEA Fed Sec
2nd Dec 2012, 10:24
and when the 1 avionics LAME per crew are CR'ed out, that will leave 0 avionic licences to cove 3 or more aircraft. There are not enough B2 licences to cover each super crew as it is and there is no training in the future. It just won't work! :ugh:

From what I am hearing, some LAMEs will make anything work. The other day we received a report that LAME started shift, was asked to certify for all the AMEs on the previous shift because they didn't have any 330 licences. He did. Work unsighted and carried out while he was not there. Highly illegal and costing him his own job. He earnt some nice overtime though. Should be able to buy his kid a new ipod touch for crissy with it.

AEROMEDIC
2nd Dec 2012, 10:49
Steve,

I hope that you have enough to go on to at least counsel those B2 LAME's doing this sort of thing.
The request and compliance contravenes all aspects of safety and underpins "schedule before safety".

I am not telling you what to do, but I think that this kind of thing needs a firm response from the ALAEA.

the_company_spy
2nd Dec 2012, 11:48
As disturbing is the fact that people were willing to carry out maintenance knowing there was no certifier on shift, wake up guys! This needs to be reported to casa if true fedsec.

empire4
2nd Dec 2012, 14:07
This is the problem with us LAMES. Sh%t all over our brothers. It will get to a point where we some people obviously will not get the hint so we need, as sad as I think it is to do so, report these people directly to CASA. they have been warned.

middleman
2nd Dec 2012, 14:16
Seems crazy that a LAME would sign for that and an AME would carry out the work without a LAME around in the first place. Be interesting to hear how much pressure the AME was put under to carry out the work without an appropriate LAME there and how much pressure the LAME was under to sign it.

Is this still the definition of "Supervision of Maintenance" ? or has it changed ?

A person (the supervisor) is supervising the carrying out of maintenance
done by another person if the supervisor:
• is physically present at the place that the maintenance is being carried out;
and
• is observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary to
enable the supervisor to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is
being carried out properly; and
• is available to give advice to, and answer questions about the maintenance
from, the person carrying it out.

empire4
2nd Dec 2012, 16:09
Middleman, are you serious? AME's have been carrying out work unsupervised for years. CASA's definition seems to be grey when it suits them. I would trust most QF AME's long before most LAMEs from asia.

QF94
2nd Dec 2012, 22:28
AME's have been carrying out work unsupervised for years. CASA's definition seems to be grey when it suits them. I would trust most QF AME's long before most LAMEs from asia

That said empire4, this is the perfect opportunity for the company to wheel out its own policies, together with the regulations of CASA, sit the LAME down and read him/her the riot act for not following policies, procedures and CASA regulations within the confines of LAME responsibilites.

There is no legal comeback from either the LAME, AME or any union. This won't earn the LAME or AME a redundancy, but termination of employment coupled with some hefty fines against the LAME.

If the said LAME wasn't on shift, he'she should have the intestinal fortitude to say NO! If the work hasn't been supervised whilst being carried out, or can't be inspected after the work has been completed (due to being paneled up, or requires installation inspections along the way) then say NO! It's the LAME who owns the licence, not QANTAS or any other company.

LAME's, exercise your rights as one. If you don't get made redundant now, don't fear, we will all get a turn. I'd rather be made redundant than sacked for not complying with my responsibilites as a LAME.

empire4
2nd Dec 2012, 23:20
QF94, I totally agree with you. I was merely trying to point out what actually happens. To think a LAME would sign off work for someone on another shift is totally illegal and something that needs to stop. It should never happen.

Jethro Gibbs
2nd Dec 2012, 23:46
totally illegal and something that needs to stop. It should never happen.

Very true but Lets get real its been going on for years there is always someone who will sign anything to try and impress management and climb the ladder .

QF94
3rd Dec 2012, 00:24
Very true but Lets get real its been going on for years there is always someone who will sign anything to try and impress management and climb the ladder .

We know it's true, so be it on these clowns heads when they are in the firing line for acting illegally and with contempt. I wonder if management would back their star LAME at an inquest. A one word answer, NO!!!

AEROMEDIC
3rd Dec 2012, 01:24
There is no legal comeback from either the LAME, AME or any union. This won't earn the LAME or AME a redundancy, but termination of employment coupled with some hefty fines against the LAME.


Correct.

As I said ........ no chair.!!

middleman
3rd Dec 2012, 03:40
unsupervised yes but still within the realm of "Supervision of Maintenance".

An AME agreeing to doing work without a LAME on type even being there is a whole different thing.

SpannerTwister
3rd Dec 2012, 05:32
unsupervised yes but still within the realm of "Supervision of Maintenance".

An AME agreeing to doing work without a LAME on type even being there is a whole different thing.

I disagree with you on BOTH counts.

If the LAME is snuggled up in bed when the task occurs then there is NO WAY that this would meet any definition of "supervision".

On the other hand, if "Qantas" says to an AME, "Go and change that component, in accordance with the AMM" I cannot see how it is an issue for the AME.

They remove the component they are told to, inspect the area as required and reinstall the new component and then sign as an AME that they have done the work as required and in accordance with the "approved data".

What happens after that is NOT the AMEs problem.

I am not aware that there is a requirement on an AME to get a LAME to supervise him, as I understand it is the LAMEs responsibility to ensure that they do the supervising.

ST

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Dec 2012, 07:08
We know it's true, so be it on these clowns heads when they are in the firing
line for acting illegally and with contempt. I wonder if management would back
their star LAME at an inquest. A one word answer, NO!!!

I have seen what happens to these clowns they get Promoted to a better position and anyone who points out what they were up to gets screwed .

QF94
3rd Dec 2012, 07:14
Yes JG. These clowns become part of MOC, or end up in the news for screwing a LAME in BNE for asking for his entitlements when on an outstation posting in Japan.

These clowns that bend over for the company to get a promotion, end up becoming one of the twits that enforce the order.

It takes a certain breed to "climb" up the slippery ladder. The higher you go, the more you have to lube up for your position.

AEROMEDIC
3rd Dec 2012, 07:25
Spanner Twister,

There is a couple of issues here.

It's true that the LAME does not have to be standing over the AME's shoulder, but someone has to find a suitably endorsed LAME to certify anything an AME has done, and this could be the AME, supervisor, another LAME,etc.

The task itself and document procedures dictate who should be doing what and when if carried out IAW the approved data. The AME does not have to be there after completing the task. The crew leader or supervisor then delegates or carries out the certification process.
If the task is multi-stage, then it gets more complex.

Assuming that it is not the end of shift, it would be prudent for the AME to be around if required in the event of a discrepancy.

Pterois Volitans
3rd Dec 2012, 07:28
Getting back on track!

Now that the deadline for EOI has passed, has anyone heard/seen the numbers of people that want to accept VR? I is my thoughts that they will have to "tap" people to go.
Will there be any news before xmas, or will they drag this out for as long as they can! I am yet to hear how the company will select people for CR, the process in the EBA is as clear as mud.

Silverado
3rd Dec 2012, 07:42
No numbers yet. They are meeting with all the people who put an EOI in, to gather some more info on their preferences etc. Still some more people to see as there was a small flurry of EOI's at the end.

It is still possible to put an EOI in now after the closing date. See them up at H271/3, even if its just for a couple of questions.

The EOI for other ports is continuing at this stage. So firm numbers in these ports not known yet.

ALAEA to meet again on friday.

No CR before xmas.

MR WOBBLES
3rd Dec 2012, 07:46
operational requirements, then service.

the_company_spy
3rd Dec 2012, 07:50
A lot of guys up in 380 land are hitting the overtime hard. They must feel pretty safe?

MR WOBBLES
3rd Dec 2012, 07:53
Maybe the back up income they have from E BAY makes them feel more secure.

rtv
3rd Dec 2012, 08:06
What the heck is operational requirement really ? It could be they need short people to work in the cargo or tall people to open the cowls ... It's bulls#%t if they say airbus or boeing licences when you only get trained if your a yes guy , yes I will sign the aircraft out ( even with a defect) , yes I will sign for work I have not even seen , yes I will do projects in my own time , yes I will work around workcover rules , yes I will do the job at any cost .. So if your the type of person that does the right thing you don't get trained and get retrenched.... Ok that felt better

AEROMEDIC
3rd Dec 2012, 10:01
A lot of guys up in 380 land are hitting the overtime hard. They must feel pretty safe?

Why is it that they do this?

Is it insurance or positioning to not get the tap on the shoulder?

No matter which way you look at it, it is unconscionable.

Naming and shaming?

I think they should be denied ALAEA membership and support FOREVER!!!

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Dec 2012, 10:39
Qantas Engineering redundancies . Interesting Job Adverts appear tonight .

MR WOBBLES
3rd Dec 2012, 16:51
AMEs in BNE heavy why is that interesting,They did not get the EOI numbers so now they advertise outside simple.

boeingsgoing
3rd Dec 2012, 17:24
12 month fixed term contract?? I wonder why they don't use ALG or Forstaff for that?? They have always said the work drops off on 2013 and picks back up more than it is at now in 2014.

Jethro Gibbs
3rd Dec 2012, 21:27
I wonder why they don't use ALG or Forstaff for that??

Why not Forstaff once Avalon is gone so is Forstaff they will become there alias Chandler Mcleod Aviation CMA,s Graeme Sharman of Brisbane must have chocked on his corn flakes when he seen these adverts he has spent months sitting in his office waiting saying how well its all going all for nothing.

As for ALG they readvertised just before Qantas posted Advertisements so they are out of touch as well as disorganised .
As for Qantas who knows what will happen .
As for Avalon don't be shocked if there is more bad news This week maybe today .

Bootstrap1
3rd Dec 2012, 21:42
Domo you are the only person who hasn't taken a shot at people doing overtime.
Aeromedic you need to pull your head in.

You don't know what anyone's financial circumstances are, and if you think you might be getting the boot then any extra money is going to help.

There are a lot of young LAMEs in 380 as well as a few young 330 tickets as well, and if the older but LAMEs have their way it will be last on first off, so when the old farts are saying this to you everyday you start to doubt your position.

If it is last in first off, then 20 380 tickets could be out the door not to mention all the initial 330s as well. You would hope the company isn't that stupid but history says otherwise.

And the another thing about the O/T is the short memories that people have, did you forget when the LAMEs smashed the O/T in 2000\2001 when the AMEs were fighting for an EBA and had bans in place.
Then the AMEs smashed it when the LAMEs were fighting in 2008.

This time everyone is in the same boat, no-one knows what is around their corner so if someone decides to earn an extra dollar so be it.
If these people worked O/T normally and they are doing it now nothing has changed.
If it is someone who doesn't normally do it and they are smashing it now, good on them too. Working it or not is not going to change the outcome.

Just remember not everyone is a Level 10 pre 96 with extra payments for higher duties.

AEROMEDIC
3rd Dec 2012, 22:58
Bootstrap,

You're right, I don't know what other people's financial circumstances are, but this is a matter of principle.

People working overtime helps the Qantas managers manpower model that requires fewer engineers. Thus, it follows that you or your mates prove that the manpower model is correct.

After all the redundancies have been completed, those that are left will have to continue to work OT or else. In a couple of years, it's realized that the model is wrong, so the managers rehire or contract the work out. Rehiring is limited because most of those made redundant have found something else and are reluctant to come back to a bad situation. This means that outsourcing is the best option and those left holding the fort get the chop as well. There is no separation between AME's and LAME's as you are ALL in the same boat.

As I said on an earlier post, I have seen this happen twice before and it won't be any different this time.

As for 330 and 380 ticket holders, there is no place to hide when outsourcing occurs and it will. Qantas just have to say "The needs of business require it".

The bottom line is that working overtime at a time like this undermines the employment of others.
If you say that the money will help boost the family coffers to last a bit longer after retrenchment, then think about those that have lost their jobs when they might otherwise have kept it.

going postal
4th Dec 2012, 00:04
I'm certainly not that excited about my prospects of a future in Qantas and I too maybe heading out the door quicker than some but if you're in the position where you need a couple of O/T shifts to make ends meet then you need to reevaluate your financial commitments you morons. Grow a backbone and some f..ing morals and stand as one with the middle finger proudly raised at management.

Romulus
4th Dec 2012, 00:48
There are a lot of young LAMEs in 380 as well as a few young 330 tickets as well, and if the older but LAMEs have their way it will be last on first off, so when the old farts are saying this to you everyday you start to doubt your position.

There's a key issue. Longer service guys tend to make the shorter termers feel insecure and then turn around and hammer the short guys when they work the OT.

It's very easy to say it's principle when you know you're the last one out the door and thus have not only a job but also the most security. If everyone was in the same boat with respect to redundancy then you have a better chance of united action. As it is having different classes of employees due to nothing more than time served is a divisive mechanism that the unscrupulous will seek to manipulate.

QF94
4th Dec 2012, 01:55
People will not be selected to go based on how much overtime they do.

How many people Qantas are able to release (that is sack) will be based on how many greedy pr1cks continue to work excessive overtime.

We are finding it extremely difficult to push for a 35 hour week to save jobs when some people work more that 50 hours in a week.

It's time for some of our members to start thinking about more than just themselves.

With all due respect, the company isn't considering reducing the working hours by 3 hours/week. This is simply not in the equation. It is purely a head numbers game. They want 204 engineers gone from SYD. Not 204 engineers on 35 hours/week.

Just exactly doing how much overtime is considered greedy? 4 hours at S.I.T? 12 hours SDT/Base? Remember, these are the minimum hours for each section, and generally the only hours you get if you can get them. Is doing a couple of hour O/T shifts considered as greedy as one 12 hour O/T shift?

For all the ones riding high on their moral horses, it really is none of your concern. QANTAS employees have always been fractured between sections, and the company has more often than not used this to their adavantage.

How many of you would have stood as one if the lockout took place October 2011, and you were denied entry into work, therefore denying you a paypacket? I bet there would have been a queue knocking on the door to sign any contract to get back into work on much reduced conditions.

Forget 2000/01 and 2008. Those days are dead and buried, and looking back, very shallow victories for LAME's/AME's. October 2011 was the tipping point for industrial relations at QANTAS. There is no going back.

I consider myself possibly one of the ones first out the door. Anyone who doesn't, needs a wake up call. So, any extra money coming in is more than welcome.

Fedsec, has the company had discussions with you yet? When they do, it will be on THEIR terms. They're not interested in 35 hour weeks. They want a cull of head numbers. Once this cull is done, there will be another one right behind it.

Grow a backbone and some f..ing morals and stand as one with the middle finger proudly raised at management.
As they usher you out the door and say "Thanks for your time". Who would feel better? You or them?

People working overtime helps the Qantas managers manpower model that requires fewer engineers. Thus, it follows that you or your mates prove that the manpower model is correct.
How so? Heaps of O/T makes for a good manpower model? Then getting rid of people creating more O/T? The system at QANTAS at the moment is reducing the number of aircraft, leaving exposed a greater number of engineers not needed. Sure there's some O/T around, but for every 747 and 767 that leaves, there'll be more redundant engineers.

genxfrog
4th Dec 2012, 04:55
Going postal.....you said it better and more eloquently than most. 100% spot on. The attitude of "f#ck you Jack...I'm Alright" is a cancer in our ranks and a major reason why we are where we are.

Dunnocks
4th Dec 2012, 05:14
The air of moral superiority on this thread is fairly hard to stomach.
200 odd guys are going out the gate regardless of how much or little overtime anyone works. Namecalling of those that choose to put a few extra dollars into the bank account is pretty childish, and disappointing to hear from our representatives.

another superlame
4th Dec 2012, 05:18
QF94 and Dunnocks, nice work.

If it is frowned upon by some to do this OT, where do those same people stand on higher duties and overseas postings.
Normally when an OT ban is on, the other extra-curricular activities also get reigned in. Or is that the elephant in the room?

Dunnocks
4th Dec 2012, 05:37
A lot of the guys are scared, worried for the future, concerned that their age will count against them in the shrinking job market. I know a couple of 767 only LAME's that I reckon have aged noticeably in the last couple of weeks. I can't criticize these kinds of people if they want to make a bit of hay, against the gloomy future...
Being told to grow a spine (by a kid) or called a greedy pr1ck by the guy whose wages I pay makes me about as angry as I can get. I'm going to give this place a miss for a while. It's bad for my health.

QF94
4th Dec 2012, 05:50
The air of moral superiority on this thread is fairly hard to stomach.
200 odd guys are going out the gate regardless of how much or little overtime anyone works. Namecalling of those that choose to put a few extra dollars into the bank account is pretty childish, and disappointing to hear from our representatives.

That's the reason we are where we are now. There are those that think their views need to be imposed on others, and others should heed. The middle finger salutes them.

QF94
4th Dec 2012, 06:19
Fedsec, following your and others advice on this forum, will NOT stop the culling of one job let alone 200+ jobs. No matter what is done or isn't done, be it as it may, will not change the end game.

All the unity of the "brothers" won't change or stop a thing. How about the ALAEA and the other unions stand together. There seems to be a gap the size of a 747 between you guys. When you guys can get your act together, then maybe the workers will also.

It's all very well for people to get up on their soap boxes and preach the "morals" of doing work or not doing work, especially when their job isn't at risk.

How about focussing on the BIGGER picture, and not just the O/T?

ALAEA Fed Sec
4th Dec 2012, 06:25
I don't think you read my last post.

The masked goatrider
4th Dec 2012, 06:55
I think I get it. Company sacks 50 more than they need to then they rely on overtime to get the planes out on time. If people didn't work that overtime, what would happen FedSec? Do you think it may prevent a follow up round to save others the indignity of the unemployment queue?

People will not be selected to go based on how much overtime they do.

How many people Qantas are able to release (that is sack) will be based on how many greedy pr1cks continue to work excessive overtime.

We are finding it extremely difficult to push for a 35 hour week to save jobs when some people work more that 50 hours in a week.

It's time for some of our members to start thinking about more than just themselves.



I've sat a watched this thread for a while and stayed out of the debate. I thought the call to cull 204 Syd Engineers would be enough of a wake up for some people here to work things out but apparently that is not the case. This is not a moral issue. This is about common sense. If you wanna run away and pretend it is ok to cut the grass of your workmates, go ahead and do it. It will cost you all your jobs and I think that is more important than being called a name by someone who is a Representative. I am your Representative and I am telling you, excessive overtime costs jobs. If I need to insult you to wake you up then so be it, you need this advice because the obvious seems to have gone over your head. Now let’s take a look at things.

From what I understand, each day there are at least 10 people doing full shift call ins. That's 120 hours a day or 840 a week. 22 people will lose their jobs if this is maintained. That is, 22 of your workmates will not get a bloody cent in their accounts after they are sacked because of overtime others are working. Now I assume that most of you are pretty intelligent. Try using my methods to work out how many people would lose their jobs if more than 10 people on average each day do 12 hour call ins. Remember a standard week is 38 hours.

You can sit around and pretend that 20 hours a week is bad but 12 is ok. You can pat each other on the back and stand together in defiance of the nasty people who are calling you names. You can even sit there and accept Excel Awards presented by Ashley Parnel for all I care. But don't think I will have any sympathy for you though if what you are doing is depriving another Engineer from feeding his family.

Jethro Gibbs
4th Dec 2012, 07:22
Would have been an interesting day at ALG Head office it went something like this F^&king Qantas have F&*king screwed us . :mad:

Yesterdays advertisements now removed now the question is what's going to happen to current ALG employees now .

the_company_spy
4th Dec 2012, 22:25
Goatrider, that is it in a nutshell. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

engine overspeed
5th Dec 2012, 04:37
Quote QF94
How about focussing on the big picture and not the o/t ...
gee that sounds vaguely familiar 94
Ill just run this by every body, still work the same amount of o/t,
however take the same amount of sick leave, people get double
dollars,you get paid for your sick leave, but the roster is effectively
bought back to neutral hours or standard time worked. To spell it out
the people working the o/t only fill in the sick leave void.
I bet the situation wouldnt last a week before they realise they
cannot afford to have another round of redundancies or even
let go the amount allocated for this round.
AJ was bleating to the press ( and got plenty of air time ) about
death by a thousand [email protected] or a slow bake, but now their doing the
same to the engineers and nothing is said. Maybe the people in the
media/journos are starting to feel the same pain, with their layoffs.
What comes around goes around .

600ft-lb
5th Dec 2012, 07:38
With quotes like the above don't be surprised when Qantas PR trots them out as complete justification as they have done in the past, for what they are doing now. Bottom line discussing of any 'plans' on this forum is stupid. But I see it time and again so I guess we're slow learners.

My advice is stay professional don't bring the profession into disrepute. The last thing I want on my future resume when they sack me is a tainted previous profession I seemingly have wasted my working life on.

genxfrog
5th Dec 2012, 08:23
It seems that everyone has an opinion and advice on what should and shouldn't be stated on this forum in relation to the culling in Engineering. Quite frankly you can all write a thesis if you want but the reality is no-one is "imposing" anything on anyone and even if one tried it wouldn't make any difference.
We are all worried about the "right here right now" and couldn't give a rats about the future or any prospects for the next generation of our kind.
The stampede to work overtime whilst our mates are being necked is a typical example of our lack of credibility when it comes to supporting one another and regardless if someone can do with the extra dough.....it's indefensible. Qantas know how weak we are when we feel threatened and they're simply using this strategy, with our capitulation, to achieve their aim.
If this is the type of example we are setting for others who may one day fill our shoes, then I for one hang my head in shame.

mahatmacoat
5th Dec 2012, 09:05
Where is the like button?

No not for you qf94 or 6000-ot.

Take five
5th Dec 2012, 10:28
Back to the 8 hour roster system.

Seems to me to be a very good idea at the moment.

See how many redundancies happen then.

Jethro Gibbs
5th Dec 2012, 10:34
Qantas don't want Ideas they want everyone gone simple as that .

QF94
5th Dec 2012, 11:28
Where is the like button?

No not for you qf94 or 6000-ot.

Real mature mahatmacoat. Obviously a FB freak who needs to be liked.

I can only laugh at the faceless screen names that can only come up with the above as their best.

Syd eng
5th Dec 2012, 19:41
If yesterday was anything to go by it certainly is going to be a whole different world post cull.

Masses of holes in the licence coverage, composite crews with no avionic coverage meant ame's did nothing all day. No licence coverage for aircraft at all meant checks not started for up to 6 hours after arrival.

Acute Instinct
5th Dec 2012, 23:47
QF94,

A person who needs to be liked Finally there is some wisdom for all of us. A need to be liked is what forms a healthy social community. It lends a moral responsibilty to the collective. Social accountability then forms and shapes what the vast majority accept as desirable behavioral protocols. Over a period of time, the standards of interactive behaviour and respect grow in quality and adhesion. And then.......
And then there are the black sheep. Who do they become?

KR747

1me
6th Dec 2012, 02:07
Acute Instinct... love your work! :D

QF94 et al.. whether those of us who choose not to feed at the OT trough say anything or not you will go on your merry way irrespective.

Why do you care what anyone else thinks anyway, afterall you have a right to do what you consider appropriate don't you?

I understand that everyone's circumstances are different, and who couldn't use a little extra cash at this time of year? On the other hand, if there is the slightest chance that what I do could affect the livelihoods of my colleagues, in a climate such as this, then perhaps I should give pause and consider the implications.

I would never be so rude as to show my frustration to those who come in and work OT on my crew but I'll make a mental note, and in the unlikely event that I survive this cull I'll know who hasn't got my back.

QF94
6th Dec 2012, 02:17
I would never be so rude as to show my frustration to those who come in and work OT on my crew but I'll make a mental note, and in the unlikely event that I survive this cull I'll know who hasn't got my back.

1me, will that same frustration extend to those on outstation postings, doing higher duties or on secondment outside their normal employment? Afterall, it is filling in a shortage in other sections isn't it? Creating a shortage in our own sections?

Or are we just focussed on the easy targets? You're right though, I care for other people's opinions as much as they care about mine. In the big scheme of things, we're all Jacks.

Doing O/T is not affecting anyone's livelihoods. The inevitable will happen, whether it's done or not.

the_company_spy
6th Dec 2012, 04:34
QF94, if someone is relieving at an out station, presumably they cover his/her absence with overtime if required. Same for people acting in higher roles. I don't get asked to fill in at out stations, I don't get asked to act in higher duties, but I do from time to time get asked if I am available to work overtime. This is something I can control.

Bagus
6th Dec 2012, 06:25
> Home > Campaigns
Qantas Engineers' Alliance
Together, we are committed to working for a strong, sustainable future for our industry.

We are calling for:

Genuine engagement on fleet and maintenance planning
A commitment to maintaining aircraft in Australia
On-going skills training and quality jobs
Infrastructure investment for a strong Australian engineering capability
A plan to take advantage of maintenance opportunities in the Asia-Pacific
We have launched a new website.* Check it out.


What happen to this alliance,all talk but no action

QF94
6th Dec 2012, 06:35
What happen to this alliance,all talk but no action

It's called spin. Corporations, advertising companies and even governments use it. It also gets a fair bit of use on this forum.

Romulus
6th Dec 2012, 06:37
> Home > Campaigns
Qantas Engineers' Alliance
Together, we are committed to working for a strong, sustainable future for our industry.

We are calling for:

Genuine engagement on fleet and maintenance planning
A commitment to maintaining aircraft in Australia
On-going skills training and quality jobs
Infrastructure investment for a strong Australian engineering capability
A plan to take advantage of maintenance opportunities in the Asia-Pacific
We have launched a new website.* Check it out.


What happen to this alliance,all talk but no action

Perhaps those running it have found that managing isn't as easy as they thought?

Perhaps there are plenty willing to talk but few willing to get stuck in?

Perhaps people just don't care.

Perhaps it's all just too hard.

The masked goatrider
6th Dec 2012, 06:54
Perhaps the head of the union behind this alliance is sleeping with the Qantas spokesmodel.

The Big E
6th Dec 2012, 06:59
A person (the supervisor) is supervising the carrying out of maintenance
done by another person if the supervisor:
• is physically present at the place that the maintenance is being carried out;
and
• is observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary to enable the supervisor to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is being carried out properly; and
• is available to give advice to, and answer questions about the maintenance from, the person carrying it out.

How the hell does not being on the scene still fall within the realm of the above requirement regarding Supervision?

Please explain it to this Industry veteran of 52 years, and Multi Category LAME for 47 years. Regards, Big E.

Bootstrap1
6th Dec 2012, 07:27
rtv, you are nothing but a troll. 10 posts in 4 years. Go away and take your list of names with you.

And whilst you are compiling your list go into the supervisors office and take the names down of all the acting supervisors, then when you read the workload record all the names of the acting leading hands, because no doubt they would be scum to you as well.

It annoys me that everyone is banging on about the O/T but the select few golden children on out station postings and higher duties are being left alone.

Either put everyone in the same boat or move on. Extra cash is extra cash no matter how it is earned.

Steve, we all know the associations stance on O/T but what is on these other issues?

The Big E
6th Dec 2012, 07:56
It's actually called horseshit. :D

Bagus
6th Dec 2012, 08:32
More likely the AWU is selling the workers off

up2us
6th Dec 2012, 08:51
To all my fellow LAMES,

I would like to pass on my own opinion, it may not be expressed as eloquently as some on here or u might not agree, but i reckon its pretty simple.

We have inherited some pretty good conditions from our forefathers & they had to fight pretty dam hard so we can enjoy these benefits! so out of respect for these inherited conditions( and our mates in the firing line) its pretty easy to say 'NO to the OT'.

Also as a Dad i'm pretty conscious of the moral obligations i'm trying to instill in my kids and to try to do whats right by others and not the usual "i'm right jack", its gonna be pretty hard for all of our kids to get a descent job in this country the way it is and I don't want to contribute to the corporate greed thats happening all over the place.

We can all make a difference and it starts with yourself!

Acute Instinct
6th Dec 2012, 09:14
QF94,

Who do they become?
Similarly, an alcoholic's best friend is always another alcoholic. They congregate, form alliances, they network.
Network. Where you are true to others and not necessarily true to yourself.
Whenever you here the word network, spoken from the mouths of the hungry, take note. Its the beginning of the end.
Its also the beginning of the lies, the deceitfulness, the double meanings, the two faces or more, the double standards, the hatred of oneself, the onset of self doubt, and in the end , the one glaring question?
Who am I?
To all those that sleep on a bed of nails, get comfortable and familiar, and 'put some weight on the pricks'.

Kindest regards to the true soldiers,

KR747

600ft-lb
6th Dec 2012, 09:26
Can everyone please keep in mind how unprotected industrial action is viewed these days by the industrial umpire, what the fines are, what constitutes it etc.

Just wait until there are planes going out late due to management's own doing then they bring out the pprune posts and potentially go after people on here to further sink the boot in using your own words as evidence. Don't expect advice from the alaea asking you to all stop doing OT or higher duties.

Read the sticky post at the top for a guide on how the owners of this forum will help you out in any legal matter.

Stay professional

ALAEA Fed Sec
6th Dec 2012, 09:41
It annoys me that everyone is banging on about the O/T but the select few golden children on out station postings and higher duties are being left alone.

Either put everyone in the same boat or move on. Extra cash is extra cash no matter how it is earned.

Steve, we all know the associations stance on O/T but what is on these other issues?

Yes. The stance on O/T has always been the same. Excessive overtime costs jobs. It annoys me that some people work excessive overtime then get on here and try and justify it. You can't.

Do we support people taking up outstation postings? Yes we do. An Engineer who works in another port needs to be replaced at home. This creates the need for employment on his original crew.

Do we support people doing higher duties? Yes we do. An Engineer who steps up needs to be replaced. This creates the need for employment on his original crew.

Do we support those seconded? Yes we do. An Engineer who works in some useless secondment needs to be replaced. This creates the need for employment on his original crew.

The people who accept these positions are doing nothing wrong and should be left alone. They are creating employment that can be filled in one of two ways.

1. With full time employees
2. With existing employees working additional hours above the 38 they are contracted for

The ALAEA have been advised that Qantas will be reducing 204 Engineering positions in Sydney. We would rather the people on secondments etc.... be replaced with option 1. If you were one of the 204, I'm sure you would agree. If you are one of the other 700 or so, within 6 months you will also agree.

QF94
6th Dec 2012, 10:21
The people who accept these positions are doing nothing wrong and should be left alone. They are creating employment that can be filled in one of two ways.

1. With full time employees
2. With existing employees working additional hours above the 38 they are contracted for

The ALAEA have been advised that Qantas will be reducing 204 Engineering positions in Sydney. We would rather the people on secondments etc.... be replaced with option 1. If you were one of the 204, I'm sure you would agree. If you are one of the other 700 or so, within 6 months you will also agree.

And people who accept to do O/T should be left alone also. These higher duties and outstation postings are usually temporary, so you fill those positions with O/T.

Engineers in SYD have been advised that QANTAS will be reducing 204 Engineering positions. All of us in SYD are potentially one of the 204 to go, and if we don't go now, it will be down the track.

Jobs in QANTAS are slowly being whittled away, and have been for quite a number of years now. Section by section, port by port. SYDHM, MELHM, soon to be AVV, QDS, S.I.T. over the years, EOC, etc.

Here we are talking about some people being banished for doing O/T, but it's OK to stand in for a higher duty or go on a jolly. What a crock, and talk about double standards. Just keep focussing on the few doing O/T, while your jobs are being stripped from you.

When it comes to redundancies, unions are powerless to stop the shedding of jobs, no matter what form of protest you decide to take up to justify your own moral standing.

1me
6th Dec 2012, 10:26
With all due respect QF94 we'll agree to disagree.

600ft-lb... of course there is no OT ban. That would be unprotected industrial action. One cannot be forced to work OT however. There are many reasons why someone may not be available to work beyond their normal hours.

It is imperative that given the current climate where anxiety, stress and uncertainty prevail that people manage their fatigue levels effectively, bearing in mind that stress can manifest itself in many ways and have a negative impact on their ability to carry out work and their relationships with family and colleagues.

ALAEA Fed Sec
6th Dec 2012, 10:26
A person (the supervisor) is supervising the carrying out of maintenance
done by another person if the supervisor:
• is physically present at the place that the maintenance is being carried out;
and
• is observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary to enable the supervisor to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is being carried out properly; and
• is available to give advice to, and answer questions about the maintenance from, the person carrying it out.


We are often asked about this "Supervision" question. When I have to explain it I like to go to a case that CASA made against a LAME. He lost his licence because of it. The LAME certified for the work of an AME in another hangar. We are talking two light aircraft here so small sheds that were side by side. From this I can say that the LAME must be working the same aircraft at least. Then the level of supervision comes in.

"observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary" cannot mean that the work is not observed at all. If you could do this without observing at all, the word observing would have an optional connotation about it which it has not. Simply, as a minimum you must watch at least some of the maintenance as it is being carried out.

You cannot comply with this legislation by only checking the result of the work without supervision. It says "to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is being carried out properly". It does not say "has been carried out properly".

If you have seen a LAME certify for the work of an AME without providing the required supervision, please report them on form 500's or 2000's and get a copy to us. Now is not the time for pussy footing around and turning a blind eye to these indiscretions. Qantas will not stand by you if something goes wrong.

If you won't lodge a 500 or 2000 because you are concerned that you may become a target of management there is another option. Fill all the details of one out but don't put your name on it. Fax it to us instead and an ALAEA Rep will lodge to internal report with Qantas.

Acute Instinct
6th Dec 2012, 10:34
QF94,

We, us, they, them? Find your feet, get a grip, then convey to the rest of us where you are coming from. In the mean time........

KR747

ALAEA Fed Sec
6th Dec 2012, 10:49
And people who accept to do O/T should be left alone also. These higher duties and outstation postings are usually temporary, so you fill those positions with O/T.


No you shouldn't. There are numerous overseas postings, higher duty positions and secondments. At any one time 100 people may be away or stepping up. The individual posting for one outstation or DMM who is on leave may last for a month or a week. The ongoing need to replace outstation Engineers and others on leave or training is always there. The number may vary but there is always a need. The more need, the more jobs that can be saved. I know this because I see the numbers, charts and justifications in Qantas presentations.

If you wanna work massive amounts of overtime Qf94, that's fine. There is no ban on but please don't get on here and try to convince others that it is the right thing to do. It costs jobs. Pure and simple. You and your words are making it harder for another man to feed his family. Looking forward to reading your latest justification or excuse about 30 minutes after I make this post.

Arnold E
6th Dec 2012, 11:01
We have inherited some pretty good conditions from our forefathers & they had to fight pretty dam hard so we can enjoy these benefits! so out of respect for these inherited conditions( and our mates in the firing line) its pretty easy to say 'NO to the OT'.
Damm right, and in my day QF94 would be having lunch and smoko by himself.

QF94
6th Dec 2012, 12:01
If you wanna work massive amounts of overtime Qf94, that's fine. There is no ban on but please don't get on here and try to convince others that it is the right thing to do. It costs jobs. Pure and simple.

At no time have I said working "massive amounts of overtime". People are condemning any and all O/T. Anything over 0 hours is considered massive is it? To do a single 4 hour O/T shift in a week or fortnight is massive is it? I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, except to get others noses out of my business. Like everyone else here is able to comment on what they want, I too can equally. You don't have to like it , approve of it or agree with it.

When people start having a shot at others because they don't have the herd mentality, then something is amiss.

Damm right, and in my day QF94 would be having lunch and smoko by himself.

Maybe Arnold E, your day has passed.

empire4
6th Dec 2012, 12:03
• is observing the maintenance being carried out to the extent necessary to enable the supervisor to form an opinion as to whether the maintenance is being carried out properly; and
• is available to give advice to, and answer questions about the maintenance from, the person carrying it out.

These 2 points are very grey. Are you "available" if you are a phone call away?
Forming an opinion as to "whether the maintenance is being carried out properly" could also happen in the smoko room. We all form opinions if an AME can do a job or not.

I do agree with FED SEC and do not agree that work should not be carried out without direct supervision of a certifying engineer, but we all know the reality of what happens, what has been happening and what will happen.

More importantly, a lot of people are going to find out how tough the world is out of QF. Good luck.

Sunfish
6th Dec 2012, 16:40
Empire4, please explain how you can certify that a bolt has been correctly torqued over the phone.

Furthermore, CASA has crucified a pilot for the Norfolk Island ditching DESPITE discovering major nonconformities in his company's operations manual relating to fuel planning.

To put that another way, you are totally and personally exposed if you certify for something you have not personally observed and if people die because of it, YOU will go to jail. Qantas won't lift a finger for you.

QF94, the golden rule applies. How are you going to feel when some prick starts self justifying actions that grease the skids under you and your family's livelihood?

empire4
6th Dec 2012, 18:04
Sunfish, I AGREE with you. I'm merely pointing out what happens. Scenario 1: AME who has been working 20 years installs a wheel, LAME not there to see the job done but certifies for the work anyone because he has formed "an opinion" of the said AME and thew work he carries out. LAME then certifies installation.

Do I agree with this, hell NO. Does it happen everyday, every airline around the world. Hell YES.

Could a competent AME ask me how much the torque is for something over the phone whilst I'm in the office? Yes, and I'm taking the risk doing it. Just like I have said previously, it is about calculated risk. It happens EVERY day, at every level from AME to LAME to Manager to CASA.

QF94
6th Dec 2012, 20:37
QF94, the golden rule applies. How are you going to feel when some prick starts self justifying actions that grease the skids under you and your family's livelihood?

That's happening as we speak. If you think that the justification of individuals hasn't already started, then you're one poor misguided individual. This has nothing to do with doing O/T, but grubs hanging out of manager's offices, talking the talk and doing what grubs do in manager's offices.

Sunfish, for someone who refuses to fly QANTAS for the best part of 10 years because of a bad experience all those years ago, bags the hell out of us workers for having no "service standards", and then as a third party outsider nobody, tells me the "golden rule applies", you actually have no place to be giving anybody within QANTAS any form of advice.

I have said it before and say it again, the O/T is not an issue, other than a justification for the unions and some employees to protest a lost cause. Whether you're doing O/T or standing back with your arms folded and saying "No O/T", if you meet the criteria to go, you will go, despite all the rhetoric and justification of others to not do O/T.

Again, the shutting down of QANTAS in October 2011 was the shutting out of unions from QANTAS. Where was the union power then? It vapourised into thin air. Operational requirements override any bleating from anybody.

whatdouknow
6th Dec 2012, 21:38
QF94... From what I understand a Union is only as strong as their members. Also some other Unions have officials that are way too close to the slimy managers that run the place. These management members are part of the team that is attacking the mere profession that most of my friends are so professional at their jobs.

Anyway, with the political environment at the moment and the lack of strength in FWA it will always be an uphill battle.

Jethro Gibbs
6th Dec 2012, 21:53
Interesting that Qantas wants staff in BNE yet the HR department cant get off there backsides to get back to people who expressed an interest not a shock though this mob are hopeless .

buttmonkey1
6th Dec 2012, 23:05
there will be positions a plenty at bnelmo, the demand did not
meet supply for syd vr's and the syd cr mitigation process is
beginning. get those eoi's for transfer to bne lmo in now,
several positions for b1 and b2 are up for grabs.

1me
7th Dec 2012, 06:24
So QF94 what is the solution? What would you suggest that we do? Simply capitulate??

Syd eng
7th Dec 2012, 07:01
Classic quote from a fellow syd eng last night. "I am going to ring Botany Council and report them for running a circus on site without a permit" so very true

imperial shifter
7th Dec 2012, 07:02
1me So QF94 what is the solution? What would you suggest that we do? Simply capitulate??

It's their train set. Your just along for the ride. The solution is to make the most of a sh!t situation untill the train stops and they tell you to get off. There is a whole world out there that will welcome your skills if you approach it with the right attitude.

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2012, 07:28
So QF94 what is the solution? What would you suggest that we do? Simply
capitulate??

Capitulate we already have you cant take any action 400 gone in MEL 100 at AVV another 260 to come and 200 odd from Sydney all of which barely lasted 1/2 a day the news

imperial shifter
7th Dec 2012, 08:20
Maybe all you QF LAMEs should take a leaf out of AJ's book and shut the airline down? Why don't you all give four weeks notice and see who breaks first! Would that contravene the FWA act. Fed. Sec. If I worked for QF I'd want to resign. Oh, that's right, I did! Time to man up or suck it boys and girls. Bleating on PPRUNE won't get you anywhere. And neither will the ALAEA.

Talkwrench
7th Dec 2012, 08:29
there will be positions a plenty at bnelmo, the demand did not
meet supply for syd vr's and the syd cr mitigation process is
beginning. get those eoi's for transfer to bne lmo in now,
several positions for b1 and b2 are up for grabs.

A rumour going around is that any redeployments into BNE will be into BNE Base (Heavy) Maintenance.
Any BNE LMO vacancies to be backfilled by current BNE Base Maintenance LAME's.

Any comment?

Short_Circuit
7th Dec 2012, 08:37
Aren’t the positions in BNE heavy for AME positions only so if you are a LAME your licenses will not be recognised. :ouch:

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2012, 08:47
Aren’t the positions in BNE heavy for AME positions only

Yep 12 months only

boeingsgoing
7th Dec 2012, 09:37
The external recruitment drive is for ame's. The redundancy mitigation is a different story ie depends who wants to go from BNE BASE or LMO to who gets a job there. Like for like trades licences etc.

soldier of fortune
7th Dec 2012, 10:12
To alaea fed sec

If we have an aircraft that sustains damage in an outer line station and requires an AOG team --are we allowed to work OT ?? To recover the aircraft

Arnold E
7th Dec 2012, 10:57
Maybe Arnold E, your day has passed.

I'm not dead yet.

ALAEA Fed Sec
7th Dec 2012, 11:20
To alaea fed sec

If we have an aircraft that sustains damage in an outer line station and requires an AOG team --are we allowed to work OT ?? To recover the aircraft

Well look at it this way. Qantas have too many Engineers, so much so that 204 of them from Syd are about to be sacked. If they really have too many Engineers they may as well send some of the extras to the outer line station to recover the aircraft. If they are overstaffed they wouldn't even need overtime for this.

AEROMEDIC
7th Dec 2012, 22:59
Fed sec,

If AME recruitment for BNE goes ahead, can you check that the LAME/AME ratios will be compliant BEFORE the recruitment is completed?

It's a much harder exercise after the event if history is a guide.

Jethro Gibbs
7th Dec 2012, 23:33
If AME
recruitment for BNE goes ahead, can you check that the LAME/AME ratios will be
compliant BEFORE the recruitment is Completed.


AME recruitment It is already being advertised to general public by Qantas for the past week the labour hire joints are out & Qantas don't care what ALAEA , CASA , say or think about ratios or anything else they will do whatever they want .

boeingsgoing
8th Dec 2012, 02:57
Yes I agree if Avalon was allowed to run the way it was in the early days then obviously Casa don't care, and therefore why would the company care? Ratio of 15:1 there some shifts back then?

Ngineer
8th Dec 2012, 05:22
Why don't you all give four weeks notice and see who breaks first!

You wouldn't be a pilot, would you?

Gas Bags
8th Dec 2012, 06:30
Fed sec,

If AME recruitment for BNE goes ahead, can you check that the LAME/AME ratios will be compliant BEFORE the recruitment is completed?

It's a much harder exercise after the event if history is a guide.

Is there really any legislated ratio of AME's to LAME's. I for one have never seen this in writing anywhere, however have heard it verbally quoted many times over the years by many different people. Those verbals can never actually tell the supposed ratio, and it is always 'they' told me about it when I have asked where the info comes from.

I am genuinely interested if anybody out there can direct me to anywhere that officially captures this elusive ratio...What is 'compliant' and in 'compliance' with what?

ALAEA Fed Sec
8th Dec 2012, 06:52
If AME recruitment for BNE goes ahead, can you check that the LAME/AME ratios will be compliant BEFORE the recruitment is completed?

In case you missed it, CASA is run by Qantas. Qantas can do as they please. There is a Dutch manager with a Texan mate who would have 20 AMEs per LAME. Unfortunately there are also a large number of LAMEs who sign for work unsighted.

Your future is in your own hands.

Gas Bags
8th Dec 2012, 07:28
Hi Steve,

Can you answer my question above???

Dont get me wrong, if I had my way it would be 100% licenced personnel. There is no safer way than that.

Thanks.

ohallen
8th Dec 2012, 08:29
If LAMES are signing work unsighted, that should make for an interesting court case when the shite hits the fan.

Do these guys have any concept of personal liability,? They certainly wont be backed by the Rat if they are called into a coroners court and as well as the prospect of prison time, they would also be liable civilly, so there goes the house and any assets.

Good luck guys, you just better hope that nothing goes wrong.

ALAEA Fed Sec
8th Dec 2012, 08:30
Can you answer my question above???

Sorry I can be a little more direct in the answer.

If AME recruitment for BNE goes ahead, can you check that the LAME/AME ratios will be compliant BEFORE the recruitment is completed?

Yes. In fact I can check now. They are compliant. This is because there is no set ratio stiplulated in CARs or any other document. It is up to CASA's discretion whether they are satisified with the LAME/AME ratio. For the next bit please refer to my last answer.

AEROMEDIC
8th Dec 2012, 12:03
Fed sec,
Perhaps this is the moment for a reminder to all licensed members of the ALAEA of their responsibilities and liabilities when something gets wrong.

Not all LAME's are thinking forward when under pressure to sign off work that they have yet to check. The pushing by management to complete the paperwork as the scheduled departure time is approaching may be more than someLAME's are able to bear.

A worthy occasion at this point of proceedings for such a timely reminder, wouldn't you think?'

evolved
8th Dec 2012, 21:09
Whats the chances of these AME's ever getting a licence or even having a job after 12 months?

ALAEA Fed Sec
8th Dec 2012, 23:14
None if LAMEs keep signing their work from a desk.

buggerme
9th Dec 2012, 06:51
The problem is that there are too many leading/ acting leading hands that are pushing their crews too hard to achieve what the company wants no matter what, so they look good [in their opinion] they can safeguard their jobs. Don't they realise that they can be on the hit list, whether it be just now or six months down the track, unfortunately they are very shortsighted as if they don't fit into the long term plans they will be gone just like the rest of us.

Acute Instinct
9th Dec 2012, 06:51
In this clip consider the cars to be planes and its Promotional Highway 66. The carrot is a nice warm cup of coffee with your master on the other side. Except its all one huge optical illusion, as he's not running across the road at all. He's not even there. In actual fact, he has just sent 300 unwitting persons across instead, whilst he is already back scratching at the masters door. Guess who the boss in the hat is? Sad really.......

Bowfinger (5/10) Movie CLIP - Crossing the Freeway (1999) HD - YouTube (http://youtu.be/9cb5Ka9SqGM)

KR747

Arnold E
9th Dec 2012, 07:09
Whats the chances of these AME's ever getting a licence or even having a job after 12 months?

Are you saying, even if you have a course credit that you cant get a licence??

QF94
9th Dec 2012, 07:26
Are you saying, even if you have a course credit that you cant get a licence??

You can get the licence alright, but if you've done an external type course and get your CASA licence, QANTAS are not obliged to pay you for that licence or make you a LAME if it's your first type. If you're not on the QANTAS eQ system, you don't get paid for that type.

Been happening for years, and NOBODY can do anything about it.

Acute Instinct
9th Dec 2012, 07:39
BuggerMe,

Here is one just for you.....

KR747

CNN Distraction: Family of ducks tries to cross highway - YouTube (http://youtu.be/mGMzGxeO1wQ)

Bootstrap1
9th Dec 2012, 10:18
QF94 even if you do external training for a 2nd or 3rd type it is at the managers discretion whether you get it on the system or not. That has always been the way.

There are still guys in Sydney doing external training, but I think it throwing away good money. Unless they are doing it with the intention of going overseas it is truly a waste of money and leave.

AEROMEDIC
9th Dec 2012, 11:46
There are still guys in Sydney doing external training, but I think it throwing away good money. Unless they are doing it with the intention of going overseas it is truly a waste of money and leave.

It's always good to have the course credit, and the licence. An opportunity will arise. Even if it takes along time, it always will.

You can change employer in time if you need to, and obviously not right now unless you have certainty of a job.

Put it this way, if you can afford it, it's better to have it that not.

whatdouknow
9th Dec 2012, 19:30
Even if you do a company course and get a promise... It CAN still not mean approval at the end. As for going overseas, isn't the CASA licence worthless under EASA??

QF94
10th Dec 2012, 02:10
As for going overseas, isn't the CASA licence worthless under EASA??

It may put you in a better position to get a company approval overseas.

QF22
10th Dec 2012, 03:07
The CASA AMEL is still quite acceptable in Asia and possibly the ME.
GLTA !

AEROMEDIC
10th Dec 2012, 08:10
Correct. Even if where you work, it's not paid or recognized, it's still very handy because one day there will be an opportunity to use it.
It may mean going overseas and as QF22 says, CASA licences are recognized in several Asian countries.

empire4
10th Dec 2012, 15:10
Sorry to be a bearer of bad news but MOST companies want to see your "approval". If you just have a rating and nothing in EQ then they most likely won't take you. You need to get a printout of EQ when you apply. This of course varies depending on who you know and how desperate they are.

And yet another great move by the Australian government, EASA licenses are now recognised in Australia, they just have to sit air leg. But of course our Aussie one is not worth the paper it's written on. You can only conclude this is to maintain lower wages and is driven by the Red Rat seen as CASA work for them.

opalops
11th Dec 2012, 04:09
Interesting article about Turkish Airlines, 777-300ER, Qantas in regards to fleet choice.



Turkish Airlines orders 777s for possible Australia flights | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/12/11/turkish-airlines-equips-itself-for-possible-australia-flights/)

Jethro Gibbs
11th Dec 2012, 07:13
None if LAMEs keep signing their work from a desk

Best not visit Avalon at the moment you would be very disappointed :ugh:

QF22
11th Dec 2012, 09:27
Actually a lot of Asian MROs want to see your training certificates.
You can have all the ratings under the sun in your AMEL, but without the training certificates you are likely to be rejected.
GLTA !

the_company_spy
11th Dec 2012, 12:13
100% correct QF22, intact a lot of OS mro's are only interested in your certificates.

And the overtime in Sydney rolls on.....

QF94
11th Dec 2012, 12:42
To all those here that think O/T is killing job prospects and undoing all the fine work our "forefathers" fought for before us, here's a couple of interesting quotes that are the real reasons why job prospects are being killed off:

@ALAEA Fed Sec (http://www.pprune.org/members/205449-alaea-fed-sec)
In case you missedit, CASA is run by Qantas. Qantas can do as they please. There is a Dutchmanager with a Texan mate who would have 20 AMEs per LAME. Unfortunately thereare also a large number of LAMEs who sign for work unsighted.

Your future is in your own hands.

@buggerme (http://www.pprune.org/members/358201-buggerme)
The problem is thatthere are too many leading/ acting leading hands that are pushing their crewstoo hard to achieve what the company wants no matter what, so they look good[in their opinion] they can safeguard their jobs. Don't they realise that they canbe on the hit list, whether it be just now or six months down the track,unfortunately they are very shortsighted as if they don't fit into the longterm plans they will be gone just like the rest of us.

The quotes below are those that feel O/T is the cause of job losses. Do what you believe is right, but don't go knocking those that believe they are doing right. The gravy train at QANTAS is nothing new. Unfortunately, there is nothing to save the 204 in SYD to go, or those in AVV, and once this backlog is cleared, there will be nothing to stop the next lot (however many) to go, and we are all potentially at threat of being given the chop. No one is exempt O/T or no O/T.

@genxfrog (http://www.pprune.org/members/388258-genxfrog)
The stampede to workovertime whilst our mates are being necked is a typical example of our lack ofcredibility when it comes to supporting one another and regardless if someonecan do with the extra dough.....it's indefensible.

@1me (http://www.pprune.org/members/256829-1me)
I understand thateveryone's circumstances are different, and who couldn't use a little extracash at this time of year? On the other hand, if there is the slightest chancethat what I do could affect the livelihoods of my colleagues, in a climate suchas this, then perhaps I should give pause and consider the implications.

I would never be so rude as to show my frustration to those who come in andwork OT on my crew but I'll make a mental note, and in the unlikely event thatI survive this cull I'll know who hasn't got my back.

@the_company_spy (http://www.pprune.org/members/350651-the_company_spy)
QF94, if someone is relieving at an out station, presumably theycover his/her absence with overtime if required. Same for people acting inhigher roles. I don't get asked to fill in at out stations, I don't get askedto act in higher duties, but I do from time to time get asked if I am availableto work overtime. This is something I can control.

@up2us (http://www.pprune.org/members/224647-up2us)
We have inheritedsome pretty good conditions from our forefathers & they had to fight prettydam hard so we can enjoy these benefits! so out of respect for these inheritedconditions( and our mates in the firing line) its pretty easy to say 'NO to theOT'.

@ALAEA Fed Sec (http://www.pprune.org/members/205449-alaea-fed-sec)
Yes. The stance onO/T has always been the same. Excessive overtime costs jobs. It annoys me thatsome people work excessive overtime then get on here and try and justify it.You can't.


If you wanna work massive amounts of overtime Qf94, that's fine.There is no ban on but please don't get on here and try to convince others that it is the right thing to do. It costs jobs. Pure and simple. You and your wordsare making it harder for another man to feed his family. Looking forward to reading your latest justification or excuse about 30 minutes after I make this post.

The masked goatrider
11th Dec 2012, 20:12
QF 94 appears to have worked another overtime shift in hangar 96. Now he is just trying to shake the guilt with justification.

One Eye Redundant
11th Dec 2012, 20:15
If all of the LAMEs at Qf said no to OT for 2 weeks and followed the PPM to the letter during this time (including supervising everything that they sign for), it would show QFs redundancy policy for what it is. An absolute joke. Nothing would make it out on time. Stop propping up a broken system by finding shortcuts around the problems. That is for management to worry about.

Unfortunately, that would require a workforce with a bit of backbone. So long as all of the jellyfish keep showing up and doing all that is asked of them, QF will have their way.

Jethro Gibbs
11th Dec 2012, 23:46
Anyone had a response to the AME positions advertised in Brisbane by Qantas .

1me
12th Dec 2012, 00:16
@QF94:

Don't you think it a little odd that for a considerable time prior to the big announcement, O/T was sporadic to non-existent and then all of a sudden it's a virtual open slather once the announcement of job cuts is made? Call me cynical but something's not kosher. LAME's are notoriously bad at thinking rationally when presented with the lure of $$$. We are our own worst enemy and the company knows this! :ugh:

imperial shifter
12th Dec 2012, 01:04
Qantas engineering management have known for a long time that paying overtime when required is cheaper than hiring. This is old news that the fed sec should know which makes all the more disappointing that he pits his members against each other rather than recognizing this. A divide and concor approach to his own troops. And for what purpose? Every airline/MRO, well any company on the planet will utilize their workforce to maximum efficiency (some better than others!). If you would rather bite the hand that feeds you rather than put some gravey on the roast then fill your boots but your only doing yourself a disservice in the long run.

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 01:49
The masked goatrider

QF 94 appears to have worked another overtime shift in hangar 96. Now he is just trying to shake the guilt with justification.

I need to justify nothing to anybody. No guilt to shake. The only thing shaking is my head at the poor silly group that think for one second they're going to hold the company to ransom by boycotting O/T.

One Eye Redundant
If all of the LAMEs at Qf said no to OT for 2 weeks and followed the PPM to the letter during this time (including supervising everything that they sign for), it would show QFs redundancy policy for what it is. An absolute joke. Nothing would make it out on time. Stop propping up a broken system by finding shortcuts around the problems. That is for management to worry about.

Following the PPM to the letter should be standard. Not a form of protest. It highlights the slackness and contempt people have for the jobs they're currently in.

It just goes to show the hypocrisy of the naysayers here. Hit the O/T and prop the broken system up every other time, but when the screws are tightening down on you, you want to stop propping up the system. Get over yourselves.

1me
Don't you think it a little odd that for a considerable time prior to the big announcement, O/T was sporadic to non-existent and then all of a sudden it's a virtual open slather once the announcement of job cuts is made? Call me cynical but something's not kosher. LAME's are notoriously bad at thinking rationally when presented with the lure of $$$. We are our own worst enemy and the company knows this! :ugh:

I don't think anything is odd anymore in the workplace. More and more restricting policies, more managers, less and less workers. The more changes that are inflicted on us, the more things stay the same. The place is a broken record.

With the onset of our future living being cut, I will try and make whatever $$$ I can in the meantime. You can try and justify cutting your nose off to spite your face. That's your choice. You'll be walking out the gate with your nose in your hand, and nothing to show for it. I'll just be walking out with a few more $$$ in my pocket.

Because remember, once you're out the gates, you will NEVER get the conditions you currently enjoy (as bad as you may think it is). You won't last five minutes if you oppose everything not to your liking. Just ask those that have left QANTAS in the past and returned because it was too tough in the outside world.

opalops
12th Dec 2012, 03:21
QF94
Well Said:D

1me
12th Dec 2012, 03:48
@QF94

I need to justify nothing to anybody. No guilt to shake. The only thing shaking is my head at the poor silly group that think for one second they're going to hold the company to ransom by boycotting O/T.


I'm not talking about holding the company to ransom, merely not going the extra mile to help them out when they clearly seek to rip our guts out. It's about relaxing the "can-do" attitude for a while.

It just goes to show the hypocrisy of the naysayers here. Hit the O/T and prop the broken system up every other time, but when the screws are tightening down on you, you want to stop propping up the system. Get over yourselves.


Mate, you're the one stoking the boilers on the QF Titanic..

With the onset of our future living being cut, I will try and make whatever $$$ I can in the meantime. You can try and justify cutting your nose off to spite your face. That's your choice. You'll be walking out the gate with your nose in your hand, and nothing to show for it. I'll just be walking out with a few more $$$ in my pocket.


I'll have my integrity.

Because remember, once you're out the gates, you will NEVER get the conditions you currently enjoy (as bad as you may think it is). You won't last five minutes if you oppose everything not to your liking. Just ask those that have left QANTAS in the past and returned because it was too tough in the outside world.


I haven't been opposing everything not to my liking. I have never said our conditions were bad, merely the direction those, who should know better, have decided to take us! This is a pretty serious scenario we now find ourselves in. A lot of good people are going to be out of a job soon. I'm simply trying to look beyond myself.

@imperial shifter

If you would rather bite the hand that feeds you rather than put some gravey on the roast then fill your boots but your only doing yourself a disservice in the long run.


I don't see how being unavailable for O/T is biting the hand that feeds us.. But then again what do I know.?

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 04:18
1me
I'm not talking about holding the company to ransom, merely not going the extra mile to help them out when they clearly seek to rip our guts out. It's about relaxing the "can-do" attitude for a while.


Your guts have been ripped out bit by bit over the years. You just haven't noticed until now. It's been a death by a thousand cuts for all these years. Now they're just going to carve up.

Mate, you're the one stoking the boilers on the QF Titanic..

Stoking nothing. Just have a different view. If that's stoking, then you're easily stoked.

I'll have my integrity.
I still have mine. I'm doing what I'm employed to do, and to avail myself to a reasonable amount of O/T. I hope your "integrity" keeps you employed and put food on your table.

1me, have you NEVER done O/T in the past? If not, then you can say you have integrity for making this stand, BUT if you have done ANY O/T in the past propping up a broken system, then you are a hypocrite.

the_company_spy
12th Dec 2012, 04:30
QF94, you don't have to justify here in fact I'm sure most Pprune readers could care less.
its the court of public opinion with your fellow LAMEs where you will need to explain.

Bootstrap1
12th Dec 2012, 04:45
What is the outcomes from the latest meeting Fed Sec? Is it last in first out, oldest and most expensive out, single Boeing license or no QF type and your out.

Or are QF going to keep the non-type rated guys as only QF would?

imperial shifter
12th Dec 2012, 05:31
1me By refusing OT, in the short term may, for example, cause A/C to go AOG. This causes the company financial pain. In the long term, if no OT is ever worked by anybody then more staff will have to hired/kept, your intended aim. This also raises cost as it's inefficient. Both these outcomes make third party providers look like a good option and you have no job. Clear enough or am I missing something. Please don't get me wrong, I'm a redundant LAME that's getting good at cooking dinner and washing clothes while the mrs brings home the bacon. This OT caper is just a smokescreen from the real issues and the fed sec is in on it. Now the real thing is the fed sec can't do squat. That's not his fault, it's just sad he won't admit it and instead he goes on with this OT stuff to look like a man of action. Hey, and redundancy ain't all that bad. My kids say they've never seen me so happy!

imperial shifter
12th Dec 2012, 06:00
Retraction. I'm still a crap cook!

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 06:01
the company spy
QF94, you don't have to justify here in fact I'm sure most PPRuNe readers could care less.
its the court of public opinion with your fellow LAMEs where you will need to explain.

"The court of public opinion with your fellow LAMEs." In reality, the opinion of anyone, either in cyberspace or reality is of no consequence to me. What, they're going to call me a "scab"? A company person? One who turns on his own?

QANTAS, and companies like it are snakepits. Everyone are mates until the culling starts, then it's each for themselves, until it's the last one standing. I'm not so blind that there are guys who are going to stand by me if it comes down to me or them. The ALAEA can do nothing. The numbers have been confirmed, it's just a formality as to who are chosen to go. No thanks for the O/T. No thanks for being efficient and putting the company first. Nothing. Just a payout and on your way.

There is no opinion I am answerable to either here or amongst my peers.

Just worry about those that are doing the REAL damage. The one's you normally have to answer to.

1me
12th Dec 2012, 06:16
Your guts have been ripped out bit by bit over the years. You just haven't noticed until now. It's been a death by a thousand cuts for all these years. Now they're just going to carve up.


I am all too aware of that but please forgive me if I fail to help sharpen the knife!

I hope your "integrity" keeps you employed and put food on your table.

And why wouldn't it?

1me, have you NEVER done O/T in the past? If not, then you can say you have integrity for making this stand, BUT if you have done ANY O/T in the past propping up a broken system, then you are a hypocrite.

Then in your eyes I am hypocritical. In my eyes you are narcissistic. The thing is neither of us cares in the slightest what each other thinks so this whole discussion is futile.

Despite our differences of opinion QF94, I do sincerely wish you and your family a happy Christmas and a joyous New Year!

1me
12th Dec 2012, 06:22
@imperial shifter

Retraction. I'm still a crap cook!

You obviously didn't do the "Washing and Cooking 2012" eQ course did you?? :p

Syd eng
12th Dec 2012, 06:59
This is exactly what the company wants to happen, why else would they ban OT and reschedule at the drop of a hat a few months ago. Now it has been open slather once more as they schedule training stupidly, composite crews with no licence coverage, the list goes on.

In the weeks before the announcement the OT desperates were having to go to Domestic for their OT. If you are relying on OT to survive now boy are you in for a shock when you have nothing!

Now they have the pleb infighting and it in turn is creating a less efficient workforce, they want SAM to fail, 30% now and another cull in 3 months RP, let it slip at a Cabo meeting.

Their train set is being set up for a big accident.

Acute Instinct
12th Dec 2012, 07:45
You will all know to whom I address,

Thank god our sacred country is not being invaded by enemy forces. Our fore fathers had some very simple rhymes and reasons. They weeded out the selfish, the shallow, the weak and pitiful. Because on the front line, its all for one, and one for all.
You continue to push forward with you gutless selfish reasoning. You continue to expose your insecurities through your aggression. I almost feel as though I know you intimately. For all those facing an uncertain future, listen to the words of such parasitical beings. Hear them with your gut. You don't have to look far. They are the black sheep.........

KR747

Bootstrap1
12th Dec 2012, 07:48
Since this next cull in 3 months is no secret does anyone know what it entails.
Fed Sec do you have any more info of the next blood letting?

If it is the case, then it would seem that this first cull of 200 wont be over when the next round is announced.
I know of people who have put their hand up for this round but have asked to stay until the end of June.

Acute Instinct
12th Dec 2012, 08:12
Baah Baah, Black sheep......

You have bleeted on and on, for days now.
Post after post you have induced, antagonised, beckoned, and pleaded for somebody, just one body, to impune themselves. To utter the words. And you have failed.....
Not because of the wile and cunning of those you wish to trap, but because it is simply a matter of conscience. It lives inside of you and all around you. Can you look a man in the eye?
Perhaps its all a figment of your imagination......

KR747

ALAEA Fed Sec
12th Dec 2012, 10:22
Fed Sec do you have any more info of the next blood letting?

Nothing official but lots of reports coming in about managers saying things and trainers preparing. Numbers will be cut by 75% by the time they are finished unless you stand together. Standing together does not mean


With the onset of our future living being cut, I will try and make whatever $$$ I can in the meantime.

Not only is this a selfish attitude, it is encouraging others to be selfish. Read this guys earlier posts and you can just about pin point the time he became a company advocate. He's just like a Collingwood supporter who decided to switch to Carlton. His support for either team from that point on is irrelevant.

Company will allow you to stay until the end of June if you like, you would stop working earlier but be allowed to take leave to reach milestone dates.

In the long term, if no OT is ever worked by anybody then more staff will have to hired/kept, your intended aim. This also raises cost as it's inefficient. Both these outcomes make third party providers look like a good option and you have no job. Clear enough or am I missing something.

I saw an earlier post as well that makes the assumption that overtime is cheaper. It's not. You can do the sums. wages x 200% versus wages plus 10% super plus maybe 30% for A/L LSL. Then you look at a bit of downtime (maybe 20%) for the full timer. The extra staff member is cheaper or if the company can't plan rosters break even.

Now the real thing is the fed sec can't do squat.

At least I will bloody well try. There is no thing with O/T. People just need to be aware that it does cost jobs, be reasonable and don't hog it. We have a case in Fed Court to stop some of this stuff. Also about 40 active complaints in with CASA for breaches of company policy due to short staffing and poorly planned new procedures. Any other tips to make me look like a man of action would be welcome.

What is the outcomes from the latest meeting Fed Sec? Is it last in first out, oldest and most expensive out, single Boeing license or no QF type and your out.

We will run some meetings next week to explain it. Nothing set in stone yet. Qantas presented some diagram allocating points for all sorts of things like licences, if you are OHS Rep, mxi trained and time with company. It will be a mix of a host of abilities/quals. We haven't agreed to anything. They have 380 licences weighted far higher than 744 and other Boeings if it helps. Not sure if that will change.

The ALAEA can do nothing. The numbers have been confirmed, it's just a formality as to who are chosen to go.

This is crap guys. They haven't even confirmed any numbers because what they have put out doesn't even match their existing workforce figures. Nothing is foregone if you stick together.

imperial shifter
12th Dec 2012, 10:25
Mr Instinct, I've always thought that one of the great aspects of our country is that it's a wealthy enough and free enough for the black sheep to wander through life without causing any real harm and with the security that no real harm will come to them. War references are a bit over the top from any perspective eh? The Qantas of all your memories is dead, your living in its shadows. A brave new world awaits....

empire4
12th Dec 2012, 12:50
@QF94
You are so correct in what you are saying. I left QF 7 years ago and you look back and realise how much that place is a lazy mans gravy train. Sure you can earn more $$$ elsewhere but you work way more, sure you can get more training elsewhere but you pay for it like doing 14 transits in a 12 hour shift. Go to GA and see how much you get paid and what dodgy sign offs you'll do. Then if you complain find out what happens.

Go to Asia or the Middle East and see what happens. One QF guy from Brisbane went to Etihad,he was given a 777 course and his repayment was refusing to do OT. He was given a one way ticket a few weeks later.

QF engineering is a massive snake pit. Not one person there will stand next to you whilst the gun is aimed. I have been there.

My advice is for everyone to stop fighting, realise you have NO power but to look after yourself with OT, training and try give yourself every advantage over the guy sitting next to you at your next job interview. The only way to make these idiots understand it will fail is to walk away, which I know no one has the balls to do.

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 13:20
1me
Despite our differences of opinion QF94, I do sincerely wish you and your family a happy Christmas and a joyous New Year!

Thanks for the sentiment and the same to you and all those I have differences with (for those that think I'm sucking up, you're badly mistaken).

I wish no bad upon anybody. Everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to it. Last I recall, this is a free country with freedom of speech. Let's live by that, or is it only free if you're compliant with the popular majority?

Fedsec
Not only is this a selfish attitude, it is encouraging others to be selfish. Read this guys earlier posts and you can just about pin point the time he became a company advocate. He's just like a Collingwood supporter who decided to switch to Carlton. His support for either team from that point on is irrelevant.

Encouraging others to be selfish? I thought people would be mature enough to make their own decisions. If you've read my posts, I'm not telling anyone to do anything.

As for being a company advocate, you're correct in the sense about the company, NOT the management and what they're doing. There is a difference.

I'm not an AFL person, so your sarcasm is lost on me. I follow league, and have only ever followed one team, win, lose or draw.

This is crap guys. They haven't even confirmed any numbers because what they have put out doesn't even match their existing workforce figures. Nothing is foregone if you stick together.

Maybe this is another ploy from management. We have been told directly, the numbers, and the process the management now have to go through to make up the criteria for the unfilled VR positions. They tell us one thing, and you another.

Fedsec, with all due respect, you failed to stop the shutdown of MELHM, AVV, and redundancies over the last few years across the company. The saying "You won't get me I'm part of the union" died a long time ago. You seem to be still running on the vapours of the 2008 "win".

October 2011 changed the ballgame forever.

Acute Instinct, step away from the glue vapours. You're addicted. Do you know any other nursery rhymes? Or you haven't gotten that far yet?

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 22:13
Fedsec, this one is for you:

The World Today - Aircraft engineers take sides in the Qantas dispute 29/11/2012 (http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3643648.htm)

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: The Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association says Qantas is in deep trouble.

The association had a few run-ins with the former CEO Geoff Dixon during his time in the top job.

But now, the federal secretary Steve Purvinas wonders if he's the airline's saviour.

STEVE PURVINAS: Look as far as we're concerned from a union perspective, Qantas as an airline is going to be destroyed under the current leadership of Alan Joyce and his mate Leigh Clifford and the plans they've put forward. The only hope that we have is if someone comes in and changes direction and Geoff Dixon is saying all the right things at the moment.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Have you been in talks with Geoff Dixon at all?

STEVE PURVINAS: No, I haven't been in any talks whatsoever with Mr Dixon or any of those mentioned as part of this consortium but I have no doubt that if it does get anything towards a serious takeover or a portion of the stake holding that is going to have them having seats on the board, I have no doubt they'll contact us.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: Geoff Dixon is part of a high-profile group of investors seeking changes at Qantas. The group is believed to be considering selling off the low cost carrier Jetstar and the airline's frequent flyer program.

Steve Purvinas says that's preferable to the airline's current course of action.

STEVE PURVINAS: We're not sure what's going to happen but I'm thinking that as long as Alan Joyce and his mate Clifford are running that airline it is doomed so something needs to give.

TIMOTHY MCDONALD: So what needs to give?

STEVE PURVINAS: Look, it Mr Dixon was to take over the airline it may be a good thing. He has led the airline for eight or nine years and it was profitable in every one of those years. So if he doesn't sell off all the assets, if he doesn't continue to invest in failed ventures in Asia under the Jet Star brand, it could actually see growth in Qantas' international business which is what we need.

Here you are bleeting about standing as one, but you're willing to back this creep back into QANTAS! What's in it for you? You have lost me on this one. "If he dosen't sell off all the assets" and so on. What the hell was he trying to do back in 2007? He brought in the A380. He broke off ties with Asian carriers, in particular SIA.

Anyone who can say Dixon would be a saviour to QANTAS has lost the plot. He almost sold the company and it wouldn't be here today. Dixon led the company for eight years and trashed the brand to no end. You were always squealing he should pay more to staff when record profits were being made, and now you think he's good for the company. I guess if someone says all the right things, they must be good. This is the height of stupidity!

If he gets in, that is QANTAS finished once and for all. Maybe you should read your previous posts. Maybe you're the one who changes footy sides.
Not only is this a selfish attitude, it is encouraging others to be selfish. Read this guys earlier posts and you can just about pin point the time he became a company advocate. He's just like a Collingwood supporter who decided to switch to Carlton. His support for either team from that point on is irrelevant.

It looks like your support for the current situation is now irrelevant and redundant as your allegiance is to the one who started this whole mess. Your job will still be intact when 204 have gone from SYD.

Just in case you feel I'm an advocate for the current regime, I am making this point very clear, the whole board needs to be replaced, but not with Dixon, Singleton, Gregg, Jerry Harvey and Carnegie and maybe a seat or two from the ALAEA.

ALAEA Fed Sec
12th Dec 2012, 22:48
Your actions and words are backing the current Board. Read my words.

The airline will be destroyed under Clifford and Joyce.

Do you know what the word "if" means? Now take a look at what I said about Dixon -

if he doesn't sell off all the assets

if he doesn't continue to invest in failed ventures in Asia under the Jet Star brand

it could actually see growth in Qantas' international business which is what we need

I am sure your undying support for your current managers has not gone unnoticed.

QF94
12th Dec 2012, 23:00
I don't know what language you're reading my posts in, but under no circumstances do I have any support for this current management. I have stated all along that the board needs to be changed, and the company is in a very poor state of repair. It is all but destroyed.

Now who's on the path of justification for bringing back a creep who walked out with $11million for an unfinished contract.

I have read your words. More than the ones you have quoted. "IF". We're talking about Dixon here. IF he didn't buy the A380. IF he bought the 777's. IF he didn't upset the Singaporeans so much. IF he actually succeeded in selling QANTAS. IF he selected Borghetti and not the current clown.

I'm sure your newfound support for the previous management will not go unnoticed either. But you'll have your cheer squad cheering for every word you utter. That's fine. QANTAS cannot win with this current regime, or the one you now have support for.

QANTAS is well and truly stuffed, and with the support of the ALAEA.

ampclamp
12th Dec 2012, 23:27
QF94 , Fed sec's "support" is highly qualified not absolute.I don't think he could be more up front or explain more simply.

As to how Dixon and co. could be held to any commitment , that would be for another day.

Faced with the current choice I too would support Dixon IF it meant a change of direction for the betterment of the main line and its employees.

Sometimes your enemy's enemy is your friend.

Dixon is a pragmatist and if he must negotiate with his former union foes he will do it to get a deal done. That pragmatism needs to come from both sides.

1me
12th Dec 2012, 23:45
I agree with some of the QF94's sentiment. Whilst I support Fed Sec as the leader of our union and trust what he says I think if Dixon and his mates get in it will be a case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire"!

Dixon hates us almost as much as Joyce does. He fought us tooth and nail in 2008 and nearly destroyed the company with the failed APA PE bid. He is no saviour, merely a seagull looking to score a few hot chips at the beach!

ampclamp
12th Dec 2012, 23:48
If Dixon wants support he too must compromise. Simple as that.

KrispyKreme
13th Dec 2012, 00:14
Never fear our new management team is on the way to save us :ok:


Geese jogging down the road (Original) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/4WVTG3dXuVM)

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Dec 2012, 00:52
I think if Dixon and his mates get in it will be a case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire"!


I don't disagree with this either. I would rather JB run our National carrier.

I don't want Dixon to run it but if it is a chioce between the current Execs or him, he wins by a short half head. Anyone, I mean even Jeff Kennett, would be better than Joyce and Clifford. Who knows, maybe even our resident Aviation expert GT would be better.

Just remember when I post on here there are always things I know that I cannot say.

QF94
13th Dec 2012, 02:20
Fedsec, letting Dixon in will be the end for QANTAS as we know it. He started Jetstar. It would be like letting a paedophile be in charge of the day care centre.

You're relying on too many "IFs" to justify the creep back into QANTAS. Hell, I'd rather Emirates take us over 100% than let Dixon and cronies back in.

It's OK for you to put your support behind Dixon. You keep your job regardless, and maybe even get a bonus. Or is this an ALAEA v AWU contest to see who gets into QANTAS first depending on who supports who.

You may as well let Gillard and Swan run QANTAS. They've stuffed this nation. Dixon is good mates with Ferguson. I guess that's why he still has his job at Tourism Australia.

There is absolutely no justification to allow Dixon and co back into QANTAS. Regardless of what you can or can't say.

If Dixon wants support he too must compromise. Simple as that.

You think he's going to forget the torrid time he was given by Fedsec back in 2008? This is business, and Dixon and co look after only one thing. Dixon and co. As much as I hate to say it, Dixon is too smart to make a deal that binds him to do good by others. He didn't get to where he is by "compromising".

The true colours are finally coming out. Throw the O/T red herring for all the sea gulls to chase after, whilst throwing your support for an ex-CEO that created what we have today. Some people have very short memories.

ampclamp
QF94 , Fed sec's "support" is highly qualified not absolute.I don't think he could be more up front or explain more simply.


Fedsec
Just remember when I post on here there are always things I know that I cannot say.

There you go amclamp.

ALAEA Fed Sec
13th Dec 2012, 02:44
Just remember when I post on here there are always things I know that I cannot say.

For legal reasons. We get confidential briefings. My sentiments are always upfront.

QF94
13th Dec 2012, 04:18
Fedsec, the below quote is from another thread Gregg, Dixon, Carnegie, Singo make a play on QF

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/500749-gregg-dixon-carnegie-singo-make-play-qf-6.html


Quote:
Like so many others are saying here, if these 'rebels' do wrest control from the current board it won't be at all good for the airline or its staff. Let's face it, if these people really had what it takes to make (& keep) an airline great, they would have done it by now. Don't agree. If Joyce and his sponsors stay, there will be no Qantas. They are sending it broke just like they did Ansett.

Dixon is Qantas. Joyce is Jetstar.

Going back to 28 November, you believe Dixon is QANTAS. Looks like you've sold out to "scrotum face". Your words not mine.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/500749-gregg-dixon-carnegie-singo-make-play-qf-7.html

Quote:
Sorry Fed Sec, I normally agree with you but this time, I believe that you are wrong. Never, ever, it cannot be. Well maybe it can. Look I don't think Dixon should be near our airline but I am absolutely 100% certain that Joyce and Clifford should not be. They will kill it. Dixon may kill it.

Yes I too agree that much of the mess was created by old scrotum face in the first place. The ship was sinking when he slipped into a life raft. I do think Qantas can be saved though it just needs some airline people to run it.

Something needs to give.

Something just isn't right here. You say to look back at my posts and can pinpoint when I became a "company advocate." I can pinpoint exactly to 28 November, which appears, that you're jumping into bed with Dixon. If that's not an about face, I don't know what is.

I have never said anything against QANTAS. But I sure as hell have never shown any support to either the current or previous management.

You weren't too up front about this until you were drawn on it. Now I really am confused as to what's worse. The current management, or you guys getting into bed with a fierce opponent from the past. Either way does not bode well for QANTAS.

He's just like a Collingwood supporter who decided to switch to Carlton. His support for either team from that point on is irrelevant.


Who do you support now? Collingwood or Carlton?

Acute Instinct
13th Dec 2012, 06:43
As your aggression builds to justify your moral bankruptcy, your insecurities fail you.
A simple message. The glue that joins us. Something worth getting high on......

Selfish and Selfless people (quotes and pictures) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ogeMqUuE7Dg)


Says it all really. I'm out of ryhmes, and out reasons. You got me......


KR747

QF94
13th Dec 2012, 06:53
As your aggression builds to justify your moral bankruptcy, your insecurities fail you.
A simple message. The glue that joins us. Something worth getting high on......


You're more whacked out than I first thought. Better you stay with your glue and bonding, and stay high. You're out of the way then. :E

Arnold E
13th Dec 2012, 07:58
QF94

Jeez my back is getting sore, do you mind getting off for at least a short period of time??

AEROMEDIC
13th Dec 2012, 08:08
QF94,

I wish no bad upon anybody. Everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to it. Last I recall, this is a free country with freedom of speech. Let's live by that, or is it only free if you're compliant with the popular majority?


Your comments and criticisms conflict with the above statement of yours.

Acute Instinct, step away from the glue vapours. You're addicted. Do you know any other nursery rhymes? Or you haven't gotten that far yet?

Pretty unfair I would say.

If you want to be taken seriously, then be nicer if someone disagrees with you.
I agree with your sentiments on Dixon though.

Dixon and co. or ANY consortium with enough cash to make change in Qantas are free to do exactly that. WHAT changes they make is really the issue.

Most fair minded people would adjudge that Joyce and the board should go.

Who should replace them?

What credentials must they have?

What direction should they take the company and how should this be done?

Is it too late?

So many questions and so few people from which to choose in the corporate world to run this show.
Dixon was hopelessly compromised in carrying out his fiduciary duty during the proposed takeover and should not get a guernsey for this one.

So who and why?

....and a word in defence of the ALAEA fed sec.

He's at least attempting to DO something even if some things are beyond him.
I for one would be encouraging this from he, and anybody, as long as there is hope that Qantas employees can have their lot improved.

If YOU or anybody else can offer constructive ideas or positive suggestions, I'm sure no one is going to belittle you or others for having done so.

Such is not fanciful because I have been part of and influenced change for the better in an organisation at a time when it did not seem possible.

You never stop trying.

mahatmacoat
13th Dec 2012, 08:54
That qf94 really is a very bad person. You are making lies about Steve he did not say he supports Dixon he just makes it clear that Dixon would be better than Joyce. If I may I can ask you qf94 what option you would be prefering. I ask this because they are the two likely scenarios facing us.

1. Alan Joyce CEO. dismantling maintenance. no new International craft on order. Hands services and routes to EK. Wants to open new Asian airlines with qf equity. Is a greedy liar.

2. Geoff Dixon. will sell Jetstar. invest in Qantas International. Will scrap EK alliance. Will cease new fantasy Asian airlines. Is a greedy liar.

I pick 2. You clearly pick 1 because you are a 380 glory boy who will do anything to make the system work. Please go away we are sick of your bullhsit.

rtv
13th Dec 2012, 11:37
Pm me if anyone knows who qf94 is ... We should have a chat

Angle of Attack
13th Dec 2012, 11:57
QF94 is obviously a longhaul captain/F/O , that is fairly clear, but you and i should not care about this fly, this is an engineers related thread and the fate of the company is not our worry, just the engineers fair go, and i believe Steve is doing a good job under the circumstances, hell if we were paid to worry about the companies future then we would be senior execs right? Errr maybe not i forgot about KPI'S......:sad:

empire4
13th Dec 2012, 12:40
Mahatmacoat, do you seriously think GD is going to do that. HE is no way an option. He tried to shaft you all already and you are only there because he stuffed up. now he's aiming to come back and finish what he started. You have to wake up. GD and AJ are 2 peas from the same pod.

NOTHING ANY OF YOU DO WILL CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

@ RTV.......Really, you want to know who he is. Why are you using an alias then? Because you don't like his opinion you want to persecute him at work.......Get over yourself tough boy.

qf 1
13th Dec 2012, 18:39
RTV you need to take a Bex and go have a lie down

1746
13th Dec 2012, 20:10
Let's keep it on the topic guys otherwise this thread will be closed!
Ignore the trolls and concentrate on managements' next phase of destroying QANTAS Engineering!!
United we may stand, divided we will all fall!