China is reducing max flying hrs to 850

[skyrambler]

Airlines told to abide by new safety rules -- Shanghai Daily | ???? -- English Window to China New (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/nsp/National/2012/11/09/Airlines%2Btold%2Bto%2Babide%2Bby%2Bnew%2Bsafety%2Brules/)

AIRLINES will be punished if their crew continued to offer service during take-off or landing, or if they worked overtime, according to new rules set by the Civil Aviation Administration of China.

Flight attendants in most cases won't turn down a passenger's request for a blanket when the plane is taking off and they won't collect unfinished meal boxes before landing to avoid passenger complaints.

This disregard for safety as domestic airlines do everything to win customers from competitors has to be addressed, CAAC officials said.

To stop the trend, the CAAC published new rules which allow flight attendants to start serving passengers only when the plane is flying in cruise mode, the Oriental Morning Post reported.

The rules also ban flight crew from working more than 850 hours per year. If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months.

The new rules will take effect on August 1 next year.

[Big Tudor]

If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months..
So it will be ok to lease new planes, or buy second-hand!:mad:

And the rest of the world wonders why we can't compete against China/India/Middle Eastern carriers! The playing field is about as level as the Atlantic in a force10.

[LLuCCiFeR]

Perhaps the Chinese are on to something?

1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy

...and what do we do in the West/Middle East?

1) EASA is stretching the envelop as much as they can :ugh:
2) more and more unemployed pilots being cranked out by flight schools :ugh:
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed. :ugh:

[Big Tudor]

LLuCCiFeR

Assume that was intended as tongue in cheek! Perhaps the Chinese are on to something?

1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy

Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?

3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
This in the same month that the ONS in the UK state
The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of GBP44.49 an hour.

So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?

(Edited for spelling)

[skyrambler]

If they short of pilots now ( as they told) , so what they are going to do next year?:D

[JohnMcGhie]

I wonder if this is not such a bad idea?

The "penalty" impacts mainly on the executive management of the airline that transgresses.

Most Chinese Airlines are State Owned Companies. That's a bit like the public service. One's career progression in the executive ranks would depend on not having too many black marks on one's record, and being able to rapidly expand their business.

So getting hit with a penalty for slave-driving could theoretically destroy the executive's career progression without impacting on pilots or passengers.

On the face of it, not a bad move.

If it is ever enacted, of course.

[9.G]

While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness. :ok:

[Wirbelsturm]

The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of £44.49 an hour.

An hour for what? Per 'flying hour' is the favourite sum but, the lastI looked, I didn't magically appear 'in the cockpit' neither magically appear 'in my car' after landing. Neither do I 'teleport' myself back home during long distance trips.

'Flying hours' versus 'Duty hours' is the simple journolistic statistic mash up here.

£44.49 per hour for 900 flying hours a year equates to £30 hour for the duty time of (only) 1300 hours a year I achieve for my company. (most times far more)

(1500 duty hours, as achieved last year, £26.67 per hour by those figures)

Never believe what you are first presented with!

[Big Tudor]

And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations? You're right in one thing. Never believe what you are first presented with!

[Keylime]

If they short of pilots now ( as they told) , so what they are going to do next year?


Skyrambler,

The one avenue they haven't explored at this point is to raise the mandatory retirement age.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness.

9G the rest of Europe seem to be managing with Sub Part Q.....:\

[Pontius]

Big Tudor,

And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?

You guessed incorrectly.

If you are going to frequent a pilots' forum and malign the salaries paid to those pilots, kindly learn the differences between the various duties and how they're calculated.

Wirbelsturm alluded to some of the misrepresentation of the figures but there are plenty of others.

So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?

Maybe try asking that on a forum for those employed in the same job as you.

Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?

If you're running an airline, where are you more likely to 'offend', in China where you're going to receive a tangible punishment or EASAVille etc, where you truly will get a slap on the wrist with no punishment? Given the manner in which many of the Chinese airlines are expanding, a 3 month ban on introducing new aircraft would result in a quite significant restriction.

[Wirbelsturm]

time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?

Sigh......

Nope. That includes preflight, briefing, aircraft set-up, taxy time, turn around time at destination (if shorthaul), post flight, simulators, mandatory ground training etc. etc. etc.

Standby time and 'down-route' time doesn't even count in those 1500.
:ugh:

[Big Tudor]

Pontius I have no desire to enter into a spat with you on a thread about Chinese aviation. If you want to continue to question my experience please take it off-line.

Wirbelsturm I stand corrected, I did not realise you had only reported duty hours associated with flying duties. In my experience 1500-1800 hours per year, including standby/training/admin is the norm.

As for the averages, the Office for National Statistics report is based on total duty time, not flying/block time.

[rmac]

For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.

[Bukkake]

Where is the "cruise mode"button located?

[Krueger]

For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.

Taking into account that part of that time is used on facebook or pprune, the rest sipping coffee with friends, the most serious emergency is running out of toner...and on and on.:cool:

You are not sure why pilots are complaining (actually they're not) because you don't have a single clue about what our job really is. Oh! And it really is an enjoyable and interesting job.

Check Six, Krueger:ok:

[rmac]

Well Krueger,

If what has been going on for many of the posts on this thread does not constitute complaining about how tough life is, then I obviously have misunderstood the definition of complaining.

Vis your statement that I don't know what a pilots life is like so cant comment (right up there with "Its my ball and Im taking it home"), all I can say is that you don't have a clue as to whether I do or whether I don't, so its impossible for you to make such a bold statement without any evidence to support it.

I on the other hand, have referred to the fairly hard evidence of a number of complaining posts in this thread (which you also deny in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...is that how you run your flight deck too ?).

As for the inference that everyone else has a job standing around a water cooler and that only airline pilots jobs require them to be cool and decisive on a regular basis as emergencies arise, well on a general basis, thats an incredibly narrow and frankly rather arrogant view of the world and on a specific basis;

1. Statistically rare for a commercial pilot to be faced with a significant emergency on a regular basis, in fact unlucky if its more than one or two times in an entire career.
2. Statistically proven that not every commercial pilot is up to the job when the time comes

Many years ago a tough old Royal Highland Fusilier Sergeant Major told me
that if you want to look for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary, between sh1t and syphillis :E

[Krueger]

If trying to clarify to people who have no clue what our job is all about is complaining, we have very different notions about the meaning of the word.

Of course you can say whatever you want, although this is a site for PPrunners. However, since you don't have a clue about our job (the evidence is taken directly from your clueless post), the added value to this conversation is zero.

When I said that other jobs spent hours at work but not really producing anything, it was a wild guess, just like you did about our job(just using your way of thinking). However, it seems that with this wild guess I hit a raw nerve.:E

I don't know where you those statistics came from, but if they came from the same place where you learned about our profession, that says it all. But having a rather large experience on Flight Safety, I can assure you that they are completely wrong.

As a final remark, regarding the Sergeant's note, it's no wonder why he was a Sergeant.

Check Six Krueger:ok:

[rmac]

Krueger,

Once again loose with the facts and accuracy .....heavy with assertion without base...whose nerve is touched ?

Clearly the fact that the vast proportion of the thousands of flights completed every day are completed without drama, matched against the size of the pilot community on and off duty on that day and it is indicative that most pilots rarely have to deal with serious emergencies (other than the coffee delivered cold to the flight deck). Of course that reality may make you feel less of a superhero, but I can't help you with that one.

And it's definately proven beyond doubt that not every commercial (or indeed military) pilot is up to the job when the time comes. Proved by the numerous accident reports on record citing pilot error....some of it rather serious..

Maybe I should cut you some slack, seeing as we don't have any "Vipers" in UK, then English must be your second language (even if you were an American ;), but if you are plying your trade between Europe and Africa then most likely ex Dutch or Belgian AF.

The Sergeant Major (not Sergeant, big difference...even in your military, but you were probably not paying much attention), retired as a Colonel, saw a lot more trouble than the average commercial flight deck and lived his own philosophy.

Anyway, feel free to have the last word, you seem like that kind of guy (or maybe lady, I'm not sure) , looking forward to reading it...but you could try sticking to facts and logic this time...:E

[Wirbelsturm]

1. Statistically rare for a commercial pilot to be faced with a significant emergency on a regular basis, in fact unlucky if its more than one or two times in an entire career.
2. Statistically proven that not every commercial pilot is up to the job when the time comes


Bu**er! I must be statistically unluck having had a variety of 'exciting' moments in everything from single seaters, rotary wing and airliners! Including (in airliners) engine failures, cargo fire indications, severe turbulence/jet upset and hydraulic failures. Lets not even talk about the abjectly fantastic reliability of Her Majestys kit!

Still here, along with those passengers I was responsible for, so must have been 'up to the job'.

:E

[Krueger]

Very well put Wirbelsturm,

However there still some SLFs that think just because they came out of the flight alive, there was no major emergency going on. In fact it's because pilots usually deal very well with those emergencies that there are few casualties in aviation.

Rmac, thank you for taking so much time checking my posts on PPrune and trying to guess (that's what you just been doing here, anyway)who I am and what I do. Sorry to tell you that you missed it completely.

But now, go back to your seat because I've got a plane to fly.:E

Check Six, Krueger:ok:

[CaptainHindsight]

As a China-based pilot I can say with almost certainty that these regulations will have little effect on the situation here.

The real danger lies not in annual limits, but rather in daily ones. There is a flat limit of 16 hours flying per day for 2 pilots, and 18 hours for 3 pilots.
Minimum rest stays at 10 hours regardless of the preceeding duty time.

These limits do not change for 4 sectors, early starts, late finishes, WOCL, Night/day flying or any other factors.
If a place of rest is given whilst on duty, the clock stops. You are at work, but not accruing duty time!
Considering delays of 5 hours after doors closed are regular here and the experience levels in the cockpit this is the real danger.

The following is an actual duty that my company rosters daily (amongst other similar ones):
Report 05:15 in the morning. Fly 2 sectors and land around 1pm. Go to a unbelievably sub-standard (no star) hotel for the afternoon and report for flight preparation again for duty around 8/9pm. Land at destination around 1am, arriving in yet another sub-par hotel around 1.30am.
Recap: start at 05:15, land 1pm. Clock stops. Flight Prep@8/9pm Fly at 10pm until 1am. Total time at work around 19/20 hours in a single day. Time spent in the hotel counts for nil somehow. Perfectly legal.

Have an altitude bust? Get personally fined 12k USD. http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/475453-spring-airlines.html

The consequences of any incidents regardless of cause have been squarely placed on the individual pilot. This rule does affect that.

So I say this 850 hour limit is a smokescreen for the real issues. If a flight crashes this rule just serves the communist CAAC leaders in that they can pretend they did something. They can claim lower annual hour limits than europe/US.

[rmac]

Pay attention Krueger !

Captain Hindsight has shown you how to complain with facts and logic, and as a person who is invested in a number of JV companies in China (reason I was drawn to the thread title in the first place) I feel better informed about risks I take when I fly in China. By the way Captain H, from my personal experience with Chinese management behaviour, money first..**** everything else :ugh: you are right to be duly suspicious of intentions.

Wirbelsturm..I am never surprised about higher risk of incidents in military aviation (for obvious reasons) nor surprisingly in the GA world, where aircraft don't always get the "loving care" that they do in the commercial world...that's why I was specific about the commercial world, the subject of the working hours complaints, and there are two points to pick up from your post....

1. If you have had serious emergencies and you are still here, then you clearly are up to the job, but its clear that some have and are not..But the reference to your responsibility to your passengers safe is rather superfluous as I am fairly sure that you would have tried just as hard to keep yourself alive even if the aircraft was loaded with the proverbial "rubber dogsh1t from Hong Kong".

2. Time and again on pprune, journos and their publications are flamed for over exaggeration of routine in-flight events, especially failures which are backed up by other systems, including, oddly enough to me the shut down of an engine on a twin engine aircraft as well as cargo fire indications (as opposed to an actual fire), turbulence and partial hydraulic failures on an aircraft with multiple hydraulic systems etc etc, now here you are apparently indicating that my life is in serious danger when any of these events happen, without the highly skilled and god-like pilot wrestling with the controls before we hit a primary school.

I note Wirbelsturm, that you also appear to be a former single seat jet jock (correct me if I am wrong), so maybe a certain pattern emerging here between you and Krueger. Not surprised that if your early flying career puts you in the air for 200 hours a year, you might be a bit miffed to be asked to be up there for 1500 these days :E

[Wirbelsturm]

rmac,

What continually surprises me is that people constantly draw a distinction between those (like me) who were 'military' trained and those who came through the airline system. Personally, after coming to the aluminium tube world, I have been consistently pleased to see that the level of professionalism and diligence in my peer group is either at the same level or (in most cases :E ) exceeds my own.

I will admit, in a large body of pilots, there will be the 'lazy' ones.

I have flown all manner of flying machines and they all have a stupendous perpencity to 'go wrong'. The skill of us, in the front, is the ability to do our job, as trained, to the best of our ability and ensure that the first the paying public hear of it iis either safely on the ground or when I tell them that we have to, regrettably, divert. Perhaps we are the victims of our own success when these things get leaked to the press and then we, as a professional body, remember that what for us is routine is, for the layman, pretty serious.

Various scenarios played out in the press over the past years have caught the publics attention. I would suggest that some of these have been down to poor training of FO's and poor supervisory diligence of Captains. As the Captain it is your responsibility to both ensure the FO is capable and competent for the sector and that you enhance, guide and nurture the FO's path toward command.

Perhaps we are guilty of lazyness in both seats from that perspective but I would like to add that given the masses of flights per day that the occurance of such disasters is extremely small.

:E

[Road Rash]

I agree with Hindsight, as the old saying goes, he’s hit the nail on the preverbal head!

After flying in China myself for over 5 years these regulations will not do much in the way of helping out the crews. I’ve seen overloaded airplanes, Chinese captains flying over 100 hours a month and not logging the time and the list goes on. On another note I have to laugh at the rule that the flight attendants will not serve until level flight, if you’ve ever flown on Domestic flight here in the mainland the first thing you hear landing after the wheels spin up is all the seatbelts clicking off, and of course half the plane stands up and starts getting things out of the overhead before you even exit the runway.

As for the safety of flight here in China, it’s a truly hit and miss (no pun intended) event.

Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henan_Airlines_Flight_8387 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henan_Airlines_Flight_8387)

A lot of things happen here and we never really hear about them.