QF - EMIRATES the Real Reason

[Take five]

What will Emirates get from the deal?

Why would they want to tie up with Qantas?

Pacific slots to the U.S. is my bet.

S.I.A. have been trying to get there for years with no success.

[Olivia Howes]

No it wouldn't be the Pacific route. Qantas would be stupid to allow Emirates fly North East because then access would be allowed for Singapore. But then again it may work if key Government people were on our side.

[Bypass ratio]

We already have fifth freedom from Japan to West Coast USA. I believe we already have fifth freedom from NZ. It does make sense that EK want the Pacific from east coast Oz.
However, I think the main reason (short term) is the London (Heathrow) slots. We have 5 flights a day to LHR and they're all about to become A380. We will also have a scheduled B77F cargo flight to start between Dubai and London in December. QF have a couple of slots they don't or will no longer use.

[Tuner 2]

Um, what do EK get from the deal? How about direct access to 8 or 9 million frequent flyers in one of the world's better performing economies, with a strong currency exchange rate?!

[Stalins ugly Brother]

However, I think the main reason (short term) is the London (Heathrow) slots. We have 5 flights a day to LHR and they're all about to become A380. We will also have a scheduled B77F cargo flight to start between Dubai and London in December. QF have a couple of slots they don't or will no longer use.

I agree. I can't see us operating through to London from Dubai for any longer than 12 months after we begin.

From whats been mentioned before, the transit times for our pax to change to Ek flights to Europe will be on average 6 hours or more. So if our 380 flights are full with pax going to london then it defeats the point of hubbing through Dubai. Or, as is the likely scenario, if most or all our pax are in transit to change to Emirates flights for Europe destinations, then we have basically empty A380s going Dubai to Heathrow daily.

What I think will happen is our dubai-London services will be cancelled within 12 months of it starting and the Heathrow slots being transferred (leased) to Emirates for their A380 operations and their connecting pax. :sad:

[Stalins ugly Brother]

I doubt that will be the case. People aren't going to tolerate that sort of wait. It really shouldn't be more than 2 hours.

How do you figure that????

the QF1 & 9 will arrive Dubai between midnight and 2am to then depart for Heathrow about 3am for the 6am landing slot. From what I'm told most of the Emirates flights depart Dubai between 8-10am for Europe. So based on that I'd say thats any where between a 6-8 hour transit.

How do you come up with only 2 hours????

[scam sniffer]

SUB. I wonder, could you explain the Q (b)ankers penchant for describing a flight with the prefix THE.

To the best of my recollection, most other drivers would just say DJxxx or whatever.

THE, refers to the one and only. However QF 1, I am prety certain, runs daily. If you want to refer to just one, why not stipulate the date and that way we can be sure it's just one. If you want to stipulate a generic, THE is totally inappropriate.

Better still why not give up (b)anking (before you go blind) and talk like the rest of us mortals.:=

Cheers. SS

[ejectx3]

You're holding on way too tight man

[Stalins ugly Brother]

From scam sniffer;
SUB. I wonder, could you explain the Q (b)ankers penchant for describing a flight with the prefix THE.

To the best of my recollection, most other drivers would just say DJxxx or whatever.

THE, refers to the one and only. However QF 1, I am prety certain, runs daily. If you want to refer to just one, why not stipulate the date and that way we can be sure it's just one. If you want to stipulate a generic, THE is totally inappropriate.

Better still why not give up (b)anking (before you go blind) and talk like the rest of us mortals.

Cheers. SS

WTF????

Seriously? Thats all you took out of my post was the use of "the"????

Maybe the name Glue sniffer would be more appropriate! :ok:

[Chock]

What makes you think the QF flights will operate at times that suit QF? No doubt EK will dictate what times QF can have.

[donpizmeov]

Fellas Ek flies 5 times a day to LHR and I think its 4 a day to LGW. These flights are always full to fullish. I can't see why QF couldn't cart some EK pax outa DXB to LHR as well. Its a codeshare right?
Rumour has it that most EK Oz services will be upgraded to 380s if the deal goes ahead to trap more pax to Europe on QFs behalf. So EK wins more bums on seats outa OZ and access to another two slots into LHR operated by QF. QF 10 and EK 5 will almost be formatting on each other on the back to the sandpit.
So QF wins as EK helps it retire 40ish aircraft in the next few years, and EK wins as QF helps it increase capacity to Oz. Win win for Pax and management, maybe not such a great win for QF employees.

the Don

[mohikan]

The real reason for the QF-EK tie up is simpler then the above, although most post have some good points.

What it comes down to (for Qantas managers) is KPI's and bonus's.

If Qantas doesnt have to fly a route because EK is doing it and QF is just purchasing seats on a service, then its highly likely that for a given route the specific CASK can be reduced.

The way that QF management bonus's are structured, this means that a significant percentage of these savings will end up in the pockets of those making the decision to pull QF off the route.

Therefore, for individual QF managers there is a powerful incentive to pull QF out of its remaining international flying ASAP.

In relation to the 4 LHR slots QF owns, a source tells me that as part of the deal these slots will be leased to EK for USD $1 per year.

Both current QF services to LHR will last less then twelve months after the tie up is completed.

[Capt_SNAFU]

Scam Sniffer you don't need a long neck, the only (b)anker here is you. I can't remember hearing QF pilots prefacing a callsign with "the" unless they were taking the piss out of "the Speedbird."

[scam sniffer]

Not too many Speedbirds over the Pacific!

SS

[framer]

The Framer says it doesn't matter where QF international flights actually go as long as they go and are fullish. If EK end up running into LHR and QF pick up secondary ports with 787's that EK don't operate to or are skinny on, then that's fine. EK pick up the feed of Australian domestic frequent Flyers and a couple of LHR slots (win). QF pick up EK frequent flyers when they arrive in Ausralia and when they want to go east out of Australia and NZ (win). As long as the two airlines choose ports that they don't compete heavily on then it will be win/win.
They will have to design their joint network carefully to achieve that but hopefully that is what they are doing right now.

[scam sniffer]

12345, occasionally vhf with HNL, and at each end.

Next.

SS

[The Green Goblin]

Scammer. How do you HEAR QF blokes whilst crossing to Pacific? They use CPLDC almost exclusively and only make voice calls on HF, once at 140west.

I don't know what CPLDC is, but if it's as good as CPDLC then it must be a winner :)

[Capt Kremin]

So on company, talking to pilots in the same company, the guys call themselves "the 11" or the "the 8"? Thats your definition of a ****** is it?

It is a shorthand way to communicate a lot of information.

It communicates the departure point and the destination, the planned ETA and aircraft type all without having to say it. You might work for an airline that has only one flight a day over the Pacific or anywhere else but the QF guys (at the moment anyway) don't.

I think I know who the ****** is here.

[DrPepz]

I really don't know how QF and EK are going to plan their routes together, but how it looks like from Northern Summer 2013 doesn't look promising.

1. The EK flights from BNE, PER and ADL don't connect well to the QF flights to LHR at DXB. (Well maybe the third daily EK flight from PER would). The transit time to most European destinations would be 4-8 hours, except for FRA and LHR which QF flies to now anyway!

2. The retimed Singapore flights - seriously the MEL one arrives past 7pm and the SYD morning flight arrives in SIN at 4pm. Which Jetstar Asia flights would they connect to seamlessly in both directions? Phuket and Ho Chi Minh City. Both of which are served by Jetstar Australia in their own right from Sydney anyway. (By the way, that's only for the QF SYDSIN 940am flight. BNE, ADL and MEL won't connect to Jetstar Asia comfortably in both directions, except for Phuket

So QF has effectively diluted their single hub into two hubs, both of which really don't get connections comfortably in both directions.

If the current QF Europe flights ex SIN get feed from 7 Australian cities, and the new flights ex DXB will get feed from just 2 (and PER maybe with the new EK flight) where's the rest of the feed coming from?!

[cart_elevator]

IMHO the reason for the QF/EK tie up is pretty simple -good business practices (mostly from EK). I don’t think there are any conspiracy theories out there that are correct.

EK can fly you to many ports in Australia from almost anywhere.. but they can’t fly you say PER-BNE, MEL-SYD etc. By ‘getting it on’ with QF, they can sell packages on one EK ticket to get you to Oz, fly you all around the place on a codeshare with QF and get then you back home. Add to that, seamless booking, lounge access and did someone mention over 8 million frequent flyers who can use their points on EK with the deal? Qantas also gains,from the revenue from all domestic onward connections within Oz (as its been stated that its not a revenue sharing partnership). Also, about the Tasman, if you think QF is going to sacrifice the frequency and flexibility in terms of pax advantage of 5 737s a day SYD-AKL by gifting the pax over to one EK A380... umm wrong!

Similarly, EK have just announced a tie-up with EasyJet. Why? Because from all around the globe you can get to many destinations in Europe on EK – but you can’t get say fly FCO-LHR-FRA for multiple business meetings with EK alone. They have tied with one of the largest inter-Europe airlines that operates to both business and leisure destinations. Chuck in the frequent flyer programs etc and bingo – trip sold as a package with EK (no more pesky travel agents to book a multiple destination trip).

http://logisticsweek.com/logistics-2/2012/11/emirates-adds-easyjet-as-skywards-newest-airline-partner/

Also they have flagged a tie-up with Jetstar Asia... EK can get you on holidays from Europe to BKK/SIN etc, but if you want to tour Asia on your holidays just with EK they can’t do it.. When EK ties up with Jetstar .. travelling with a seamless package/ frequent flyer points etc, touring Asia makes an attractive buy with EK.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/emirates-to-increase-co-operation-with-jetstar-asia/story-e6frg95x-1226501863508)

EK are being smart, they are strategically tying in all the ‘intra’ destinations within certain regions, connections they couldn’t possibly make themselves, even as big as they are. And within those regions they are tying up business and leisure travellers alike.

Good plan from EK’s point of view, and I’m sure that QF will benefit from the domestic on-carriage from what will soon be the world’s largest international airline..not too sure where it will leave QF International though :hmm:

[scam sniffer]

Sorry Kremin I never realised 12345 was a QF company frequency. And I never realised "THE" put so much context to a handle. But when I think about it, it is a bit like putting THE in "the queen". Thanks for putting me straight. I am sure all the other mortals will also appreciate the guidance.

Err what about the other areas, both side of the Pac. and on the occassional VHF with HNL?

Sorry about the thread drift, fellow mortals.:hmm:

SS

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Not quite correct, scam sniffer.

In Australia, 121.5 is the Qantas company chat frequency :)

[framer]

..........ON GUARD!!!..........

[Nigel747]

.....why are people so unkind?

[Keg]

Err what about the other areas, both side of the Pac. and on the occassional VHF with HNL?

I must live a sheltered life. I can't remember the last time I heard a QF aircraft refer to themselves as 'the' when talking to ATC. Been a long time since I've heard anyone use 121.5 as a chat frequency let alone our own guys.

Still, you guys tell yourselves whatever it is you need to in order to feel good/ superior/ etc. :ugh:

[TIMA9X]

Similarly, EK have just announced a tie-up with EasyJet. Why? Because from all around the globe you can get to many destinations in Europe on EK – but you can’t get say fly FCO-LHR-FRA for multiple business meetings with EK alone. They have tied with one of the largest inter-Europe airlines that operates to both business and leisure destinations. Chuck in the frequent flyer programs etc and bingo – trip sold as a package with EK (no more pesky travel agents to book a multiple destination trip).

http://logisticsweek.com/logistics-2...rline-partner/ (http://logisticsweek.com/logistics-2/2012/11/emirates-adds-easyjet-as-skywards-newest-airline-partner/)

Also they have flagged a tie-up with Jetstar Asia... EK can get you on holidays from Europe to BKK/SIN etc, but if you want to tour Asia on your holidays just with EK they can’t do it.. When EK ties up with Jetstar .. travelling with a seamless package/ frequent flyer points etc, touring Asia makes an attractive buy with EK.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/emirates-to-increase-co-operation-with-jetstar-asia/story-e6frg95x-1226501863508)

EK are being smart, they are strategically tying in all the ‘intra’ destinations within certain regions, connections they couldn’t possibly make themselves,

cart_elevator, great post... makes sense..... thanks for putting it so well..

After reading it, I would like to offer this link (below) in addition to your post, which crossed my mind .. note the changing of the guard at Q legal as well..
there seems to be "a lot going on" in the respective airline camps "brinkmanship departments."

and this is a big one for the ACCC, probably the biggest they will have for a while, ... airline "big change" ones generally turn out to be high profile, ..setting "in stone" the course for the next ten years.. think about it, who would of thought this time last year Tiger would be still around? I didn't thinks so. Now JB's at the helm.

The "outcomes" (to nick a word from Canberra,) "game changing," everyone gets in on the act. and many Australians will be involved.. other words, some big decisions coming up... the implications? who knows anymore..?



Virgin ‘naive’ to dispute our Emirates relationship: Qantas - Airline News - etravelblackboard.com (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/137321/virgin-naive-to-dispute-our-emirates-relationship-qantas)Virgin ‘naive’ to dispute our Emirates relationship: Qantas


Wednesday, 7 November 2012 Qantas says Virgin Australia’s “thinly veiled” attempts at having the carrier’s ten-year alliance with Emirates (http://www.etravelblackboard.com/article/135222/a-royal-dump-as-qf-moves-to-the-eagle-route) rejected would not only hurt Qantas but reduce competition on international routes.
In a submission to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), the Australian flag carrier’s outgoing general counsel Brett Johnson argued Virgin was “naive and wrong” to think the airline could “continue to expand internationally” with or without the Emirates relationship, The Australian Financial Review reported.
Mr Johnson explained a lack of a midway partner would result in more cuts between London and Europe, effectively reducing competition.
“Virgin continues with its thinly veiled attempt to have the applications rejected,” he said.
“This is a clear attempt to minimise Qantas International's competitive position so the combined, formidable Virgin/Singapore Airlines/ Etihad/ Air NZ alliance will not need to respond as vigorously as it would if the [alliance] is authorised.”
Although still awaiting approval, the proposed alliance with Emirates is expected to commence from 31 March next year, and will replace Qantas’ 17-year joint business agreement with British Airways.

[porch monkey]

Ha. Gold! Remind me who it was that opposed Virgin's proposal with Delta, Singapore and Etihad. What did QF think JB would do? Give them a free kick? These clowns don't think that JB will put the boots in wherever he can? Whatever QF management are smoking, I'll have some.

[astroboy55]

121.5 is the REX company frequency, as well as their own special PAL activation frequency.:p

[Capt Kremin]

SS, never heard it on ATC. Seriously, with say four departures out of the US in close proximity, how would you refer to your own flight when talking to people from the same company?

"hello Qantas 16 this is Qantas 8 speaking blah blah blah..?."

Or "hello this is the 8 blah blah blah..."

I know which is easier. They are not talking to other airlines in this case so there is no need to identify the airline. Have you heard them speaking to Delta or United and referring to themselves as "the 8"? I very much doubt it.

This was brought up a few years ago as a supposed example of the sky god syndrome. It is nothing of the sort. It is short hand.

QF pilots copped it with the external lighting. The company changed the SOPS and somehow this was perceived as arrogance. Years ago the company also told us to stop flashing the lights when passing other traffic because it was blowing bulbs.... Arrogance was reported again. It was just pilots doing their jobs.

Haven't you got other things to worry about?

[Taildragger67]

Agree with Kremin, it's not Skygod syndrome.

Now not at all meaning to demean the profession, however...

"What bus do you take to get to the city?" "I take the 386".

I have loads of friends who are not pilots but fly frequently; some of them, I know they have to use certain airlines due company policy so if they are coming into my city, they will simply say "I'm arriving on the nnn" or perhaps "... on the 7.30 [arrival]". I know they're Qantas flights, they don't need to say it.

To borrow from another profession involving movable things: "I am PWO of HMAS Sydney" might become "I am PWO of the Sydney" when spoken to a more familiar audience.

Now, the troll has been fed, had its fun and will now duly crawl back under its rock with a pat on the head, let us people get back to discussion about Emirates and Qantas.

[scandistralian]

I have never heard QF pilots referring to themselves as "the" nor abusing guard. I am going to have a hard time not referring to my Aus flights this month as "this is The Emirates" but if anyone does hear it, feel free to ring up on 121.5 for a chat :E

With respect to the QF/EK strategic partnership, you could write a ten page list on the benefits, but primarily, it revolves around providing more efficient and greater market reach for both airlines via their already established networks/ and it is a threat response to the SQ/DJ/NZ/EY et. al tie up.

Why do those who spend there lives eternally in suspicion and focussing on what is wrong, always tend to be the ones that miss opportunities? If the partnership is implemented and managed effectively, it could be the catalyst for growth and strong returns for both airlines, and it is certainly wise to get these structures in place prior to the recovery of the Eurozone economies.

[oldhasbeen]

Who cares??

[Keg]

scam sniffer apparently. :ugh:

[denabol]

scanistralian, maybe you've missed the point about how good the Emirates deal is.

Look at this story that AusBiz Traveller and Ben jumped on.

Emirates plans Perth Airbus A380 flights from mid-2013 - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/emirates-planning-perth-airbus-a380-flights-from-mid-2013?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper)

The reason that Emirates can start using A380s on the Perth run from the middle of next year (when an A380 capable gate becomes available at the airport) is that it can top them up with the remnants of the market that Qantas has abandoned.
It is the same process that will see all current or announced Emirates flights from Australia to SE Asia, New Zealand, and Dubai, become A380 services within the next 10 years, by which time an even larger version of the biggest airliner in service is likely to be entering its fleet.
What is happening at Perth is a very good example of what happens when a well run carrier with geographical and financial advantages does a deal, on its own terms, with a poorly run airline full of excuses for not even trying to be the national flag carrier the Qantas Sale Act of 1992 expected it to be.


Emirates will fly Perth A380s from mid 2013 | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/11/17/emirates-will-fly-perth-a380s-from-mid-2013/)

They are using it to replace 777s with A380s to fit in all the customers they get from Qantas in Perth. What's the bet they do it all over the country.

What was Qantas is being hung out to dry by Dubai. There is nothing in it for Qantas folk except extermination.

[scandistralian]

scanistralian, maybe you've missed the point about how good the Emirates deal is.

Sure buddy, 5 years of full time study and thousands of dollars spent on a top post graduate commerce degree, and you think I have missed the point?!...

The A380 was always planned to fly to Perth, with or without the QF deal, trust me I fly the EK420 on a regular basis, and the 777-300ER just doesn't have the capacity to service the route. Sure the QF tie up will help boost passenger numbers, but it was a long time coming before this deal was finalized.

If you think it is an entirely one sided affair, then let it be so. Far be it from me to challenge what is presented to you in the press just because it validates what you feel is correct. Have you ever asked yourself the questions;
1) Where would QF long haul Europe ops be headed if it wasn't for this tie up? And;
2) Could this partnership potentially contribute to the growth of QF long haul in the future?

I would however be chasing conspiracies if all my eggs were in the EY/DJ/NZ/SQ basket... :ugh: