Just an idea - probably a crap one, but please be gentle with me

[95.8]

I am a Nothing, there I've admitted it. I am an ATCO2, and that is pretty much it. I used to be an OJTI, but I was utterly appalling in that role so I binned it and I don't think anybody even noticed. I don't want to be a manager and I don't want to follow a manager. I don't want to be detached to the Pay Section so that I can see what a tough time of things they have and I most particularly do NOT want to have anything to do with the SORT Office, who make making a mountain out of a molehill the absolute epitome of a Fine Art. I am a Nothing.

I am an ATCO2. I am a damn good ATCO2, but that really doesn't seem to be enough these days. I need a 'handle', something to be known for. Not my 'air traffic voice' sadly, unless being The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson is enough to elevate me to the realms of the infamous... no - well, perhaps that is for the best.

The reason for my post is this; I am (believe it or not, and I really wouldn't blame you if you chose not to) a quite experienced controller within the northern confines of the London TMA. And the other evening I had cause to be discussing life, the universe and Management in general with an even more experienced / scruffier north bank controller. I have known him for a few years and, owing to the fact that I also look like The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson, we have nothing whatsoever to talk about apart from work and the endless list of plastic surgery appointments that we would appear to be happy to go halves on.

Anyway, the point is this (that makes me sound like Al Murray - I promise you I am SLIGHTLY better looking than he is - if the light is good), I was wondering why there has never been a system put in place at Swanwick (TC - where the REAL controllers are :ok:) whereby pilots are detached to a controller or a sector for an entire shift, much the same as when a scummy old ATCO has the audacity to try to cadge a FamFlight with a flight crew of any description.

I would like to know whether this has ever been suggested at all and also whether anyone else thinks this would be a good idea. I'll have you know that, if it IS a good idea, I am probably giving up my chance of obtaining a celebratory ipod for taking 'ownership' of it. Let's be honest though, in this day and age that's like taking delivery of a celebratory gramophone. Good old NATS - fingers always on the PULSE.

For our pilot friends, I am talking about an entire shift of following a controller (protected from Management by their own particular ATCO's cloak of indifference) and seeing just what a fantastic team of professionals gets you from A to C (Via B, because we are TC controllers and we are awesome). As a side note, I don't mind kissing goodbye to the ipod but I would be rather keen to take an active role in assigning each particular pilot to their most appropriate ATCO. I warn you now, if you bear even the slightest resemblance to Jon Pertwee, you might very well find yourself sitting next to The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson - but I will shave, I can promise you. The bits you can see, anyway.

[Dan Dare]

Wow! That post got me worried. I started reading and though not remembering writing it I though maybe I am 95.8 - until the female bits. Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc? Maybe we were separated at birth.

Fam-ATCO-shadow thing sound like a great idea!

Shame that someone who sits in an office will surely deem it to be dangerous and force our guests to wear ball-gags lest they distract and keep at least 100m from the ATCO they are shadowing lest they be blamed for the computer tripping and will only be allowed to visit by public transport to prove our green credentials. Haven't things become a bit silly?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc? >>

Please sir, me sir. I stayed as a coalface worker all my working life; no interest in management - I just loved talking to the planes.

[Cuddles]

This simply is not good enough. Report for brainwashing first thing on Monday morning.

[Occams Razor]

Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc?
Me! Me! Me!

Perhaps there should be an "ATCO Only" club. Not sure who would vote to be chairperson though...

[soaringhigh650]

I was wondering why there has never been a system put in place at Swanwick whereby pilots are detached to a controller or a sector for an entire shift.

Because we may get bored or annoyed at each other's voices.

[towerguy]

So glad to see I'm not alone.

coming up on 25yrs of tower work, I gave up all ojti, projects etc a long time ago. Now I come to work, i do my job, I unplug and go home... and still get paid the same without the extra hassles. I like my job ( maybe not some of the hours...), I enjoy the cut and thrust of tower work.

I want to be around aeroplanes - not drive dots, diamonds, squares, pentagons etc around a computer screen or work in an office looking at 4 walls and kissing things I would rather not.

I would be happy to have pilots do shadow ops to see it from the 'other side' but bearing in mind the above I would be deemed not suitable. ( I don't think they'd trust me as I have a habit of telling it like it REALLY is and not the way manglers would like it seen ).:O

[Preston Brockhurst]

Great idea. Just make sure they do the shift with TMA North or South. Not sure they could handle the stress of 6 hrs in the rest room if they shadow Luton or Gatwick approach, nor the drudgery of "leave LAM hdg 270 speed 220" / "turn right hdg 245 when localiser established descend on the glidepath blah ...." ad infinitum over 6 hours plugged in on Heathrow. :rolleyes:

[terrain safe]

Did you know that some of us at airports are the same! Been there done the office spherical objects, now plug in, whinge and then go home. Sounds like a good idea at the airports as well plus we have a nice view and they can see how bad all their colleagues are at landings as well! Liking it so of course it will never happen. Will have to go through 37 committees, numerous hazard analyses, manager sign offs and then the bod in charge of tea facilities will say no.

[Eric T Cartman]

I posted this last January - it seems appropriate to the thread's contributions,so in case you missed it........ ;-)

The scene : Annual Staff Report Interview
GenMgr : "Well, the point is Cartman, you've done jolly well this year with your controlling - in fact you've done more SRA's than anyone & I've had good reports about your vectoring. The problem is that that I've marked down your Key Performance Indicator on your personal development needs !"
ETC : "Beg your pardon sir but I don't understand !
GM : "You have personal development needs in the areas of instructing, assessing, verifying, investigating, risk assessment, instruction drafting, team briefing and rostering"
ETC : "But sir, with all due respect, I'm an ATCO and I believe I'm pretty good at it too - my job is to expedite and maintain a safe and orderly flow of air traffic ! "
GM : "That's all very well Cartman but we senior managers have much broader issues to consider - you need to buck up lad !

Sounds familiar ?

[obwan]

How many of these "awesome" TC controllers have shadowed one of their engineering colleagues for an 8 hour shift to find out how all the electronic gubbins works that makes them able to perform this fantastic job of theirs: not many I would guess. Same reason with the pilots, just give thanks for the dosh at the end of the month and get on with it.:D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

PB.. Yep, heard plenty like you... Heathrow is a doddle until you actually try it! I wouldn't do the TMA; it would be totally beyond me and I'm happy to admit it. What a lot of people don't understand is that ATC is a diverse profession. Because you can do one sector doesn't mean you can do them all. I worked Heathrow Tower for 20 years. After that, TC was a rest home!

[LEGAL TENDER]

"I do not like work even when someone else does it"
(Mark Twain)

[Vercingetorix]

Ouch.



(that makes me sound like Al Murray - I promise you I am SLIGHTLY better looking than he is - if the light is good),

made me laugh tho!

[Loki]

Got called into the watch manager's office one morning after a basin full of Daventry.....did I want to become the North Bank LCE coordinator? I said that unless there was a) money in it or b) that I'd derive any fun from doing it then I would have to decline his offer. He looked shocked....more than shocked, he was actually offended....though that might have had something to do with the adjectives I was using.

[WorkingHard]

You will see I am nothing to do with ATC but I have to say what a wonderful insight this thread is to some of you. It really does help to see the lighter side of things and how many of you perceive your roles.
Well done!

[LoserGill]

I've gotten reprimanded multiple times for "being to efficient".
Not kidding.

[Smudger]

95.8.... I am a pilot of 40 years experience both RAF and Commercial and have traversed the London TMA many millions of times... and I would like to say that on every occasion without exception the service I have received has been exemplary... your self-deprecating attitude I'm sure is unwarranted and if I were 30 years younger I'm sure I would ask you to marry me... your suggestion that we should all observe each other going about our daily business is one I have been advocating for decades... good luck in your endeavours and may every day you spend looking after me and my fellow aviators be fruitful and satisfying X

[chevvron]

Way back at the end of my ATCO Cadet course in 1974, we had completed our 2 week courses (how to fly a Trident) with BA; I had the audacity to suggest the maybe cadets from the College of Air Training at Hamble (now closed) might benefit from a similar course ie 2 weeks of ATC Instruction. I was howled down with the usual cry 'who's going to pay for it?'.

[nailman]

Hi there, we did something recently that worked for us. We asked our main Airline operators to send some of there crews (Capt and F/O) to come and play in our Simulator. They played the roll of an Area or an Approach controller (with some help). It did most certainly opened up their eyes and gave them a total different perspective of what ATC do.

[Shiny side down]

It's a nice enough idea, but even I can't drink that much tea! A whole shift?:uhoh:

Only kidding.
It is, or should be, the aviation equivalent of required reading. And repeated at intervals, as part of a process of continual improvement.

I pestered a former colleague and visited west Drayton a couple of times. All the sectors north to south and the busy bit where they make all the 75s follow the leader to Heathrow.
Bournemouth tower, and dungeon below.
Prestwick/Shanwick.

It's fascinating (I often question my sanity in going flight deck, rather than ATC.). Too old now.
IQ in my boots wouldn't help. On the upside, I could double for shrek.


I'm surprised that there is so little interest in both groups getting a more up close look at each others world.

[055166k]

95.8.....great read....respect!! I'm a failure too. Nobody seems to understand that I joined this outfit to control aeroplanes, I don't want to do anything else. That labels me as a non-achiever. Never mind, I'll cheer you up a bit. One of our controllers applied for an office job and got it...well done. Moved out of our little Ops room to a desk round the corner in the same building and picked up a £25k pay rise. Of course it is a severe penalty to lose the flexibility of doing shifts and the compensation is a paltry non-op pay supplement which is actually more than the shift pay in some cases. One of my buddies retires after over 40 years operational [non-desk] service.......we're not holding our breath for any recognition......on the evidence of many past similar cases you just hand in your pass and locker key and walk away!!!!
[some of this may be exaggerated for effect....I only want to cheer you up]
Rgds

[ILS 119.5]

I believe Entry Point North (the Scandinavian ATC training school) are running courses for pilots introducing them to ATC. Couldn't really see NATS doing that though.

[63000 Triple Zilch]

One of my buddies retires after over 40 years operational [non-desk] service.......we're not holding our breath for any recognition......on the evidence of many past similar cases you just hand in your pass and locker key and walk away!!!!


Not forgetting of course to put your car park pass in the box at the gate on your way out!!

[ZOOKER]

After 30 years with a hat on, my last 'conversation' with 'management', on my very last day, was effectively a b*llocking, from a fairly junior, (but career-minded), ATCO 1, about my lack of commitment.

The chairman of my selection-board was also an ATCO 1, and a DFC and Bar. He flew over Germany, in the dark, with a a Lancaster strapped to his backside.
You respect gentlemen like that.

[Rossoneri]

As a fellow ATCO 2, I think it's a great idea, and far more beneficial than any classroom-based activities we're prescribed for 'career development'. If pilots that regularly flew through our sectors could see it from our viewpoint, they'd understand why things happened the way they do much better. In the same way if I sat in a cockpit, I'd get a better idea of their moans and groans. Why not do it every other or every 3 years?

[bekolblockage]

from a fairly junior, (but career-minded), ATCO 1

A more senior colleague, who I had a lot of respect for as a hands-on controller, used to to describe this sort as "dangerously ambitious".
You can spot them a mile off.

[161R]

And most of those were/are "dangerously incompetent" as ATCO's.

[5milesbaby]

I couldn't tell you when I last saw a pilot in AC, definitely well over a year anyway.
Have had 3 sit in with me within the last month, mainly from Monarch. Sadly they only stayed for an hour each (not their choice but they were getting to play with our simulator instead).

[Uplinker]

I'm in.

I fly across the London TMA on a regular basis for a well known scheduled carrier. I would very much like to see operations from your side of the RT.

Send me a PM and we'll set something up. It will be in the new year now, as I have no suitable roster gaps this side of Xmas.


U

[blind pew]

Ex hamster - always respected you guys and once a year would blag my way into the twr at LHR...
Got my command in SR which included a good briefing and visit to twr in zrh.
Last visit was to my home town of Sarfend - Eddie has done a fine job there - donated a couple of copies of my book...but didn't get offered a cuppa?

[Sir George Cayley]

95.800 your idea is doomed to failure. Why? Because it shows a dangerous tendency towards common sense.

Something that has been assiduously beaten out of 21st C life at every level

Now here's a really whacky idea. A week at the Belgrano:eek:

Clear left call point 7.

SGC