Just an idea - probably a crap one, but please be gentle with me
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Just an idea - probably a crap one, but please be gentle with me
I am a Nothing, there I've admitted it. I am an ATCO2, and that is pretty much it. I used to be an OJTI, but I was utterly appalling in that role so I binned it and I don't think anybody even noticed. I don't want to be a manager and I don't want to follow a manager. I don't want to be detached to the Pay Section so that I can see what a tough time of things they have and I most particularly do NOT want to have anything to do with the SORT Office, who make making a mountain out of a molehill the absolute epitome of a Fine Art. I am a Nothing.
I am an ATCO2. I am a damn good ATCO2, but that really doesn't seem to be enough these days. I need a 'handle', something to be known for. Not my 'air traffic voice' sadly, unless being The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson is enough to elevate me to the realms of the infamous... no - well, perhaps that is for the best.
The reason for my post is this; I am (believe it or not, and I really wouldn't blame you if you chose not to) a quite experienced controller within the northern confines of the London TMA. And the other evening I had cause to be discussing life, the universe and Management in general with an even more experienced / scruffier north bank controller. I have known him for a few years and, owing to the fact that I also look like The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson, we have nothing whatsoever to talk about apart from work and the endless list of plastic surgery appointments that we would appear to be happy to go halves on.
Anyway, the point is this (that makes me sound like Al Murray - I promise you I am SLIGHTLY better looking than he is - if the light is good), I was wondering why there has never been a system put in place at Swanwick (TC - where the REAL controllers are
) whereby pilots are detached to a controller or a sector for an entire shift, much the same as when a scummy old ATCO has the audacity to try to cadge a FamFlight with a flight crew of any description.
I would like to know whether this has ever been suggested at all and also whether anyone else thinks this would be a good idea. I'll have you know that, if it IS a good idea, I am probably giving up my chance of obtaining a celebratory ipod for taking 'ownership' of it. Let's be honest though, in this day and age that's like taking delivery of a celebratory gramophone. Good old NATS - fingers always on the PULSE.
For our pilot friends, I am talking about an entire shift of following a controller (protected from Management by their own particular ATCO's cloak of indifference) and seeing just what a fantastic team of professionals gets you from A to C (Via B, because we are TC controllers and we are awesome). As a side note, I don't mind kissing goodbye to the ipod but I would be rather keen to take an active role in assigning each particular pilot to their most appropriate ATCO. I warn you now, if you bear even the slightest resemblance to Jon Pertwee, you might very well find yourself sitting next to The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson - but I will shave, I can promise you. The bits you can see, anyway.
I am an ATCO2. I am a damn good ATCO2, but that really doesn't seem to be enough these days. I need a 'handle', something to be known for. Not my 'air traffic voice' sadly, unless being The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson is enough to elevate me to the realms of the infamous... no - well, perhaps that is for the best.
The reason for my post is this; I am (believe it or not, and I really wouldn't blame you if you chose not to) a quite experienced controller within the northern confines of the London TMA. And the other evening I had cause to be discussing life, the universe and Management in general with an even more experienced / scruffier north bank controller. I have known him for a few years and, owing to the fact that I also look like The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson, we have nothing whatsoever to talk about apart from work and the endless list of plastic surgery appointments that we would appear to be happy to go halves on.
Anyway, the point is this (that makes me sound like Al Murray - I promise you I am SLIGHTLY better looking than he is - if the light is good), I was wondering why there has never been a system put in place at Swanwick (TC - where the REAL controllers are
) whereby pilots are detached to a controller or a sector for an entire shift, much the same as when a scummy old ATCO has the audacity to try to cadge a FamFlight with a flight crew of any description.I would like to know whether this has ever been suggested at all and also whether anyone else thinks this would be a good idea. I'll have you know that, if it IS a good idea, I am probably giving up my chance of obtaining a celebratory ipod for taking 'ownership' of it. Let's be honest though, in this day and age that's like taking delivery of a celebratory gramophone. Good old NATS - fingers always on the PULSE.
For our pilot friends, I am talking about an entire shift of following a controller (protected from Management by their own particular ATCO's cloak of indifference) and seeing just what a fantastic team of professionals gets you from A to C (Via B, because we are TC controllers and we are awesome). As a side note, I don't mind kissing goodbye to the ipod but I would be rather keen to take an active role in assigning each particular pilot to their most appropriate ATCO. I warn you now, if you bear even the slightest resemblance to Jon Pertwee, you might very well find yourself sitting next to The Female Twenty First Century Derek Jameson - but I will shave, I can promise you. The bits you can see, anyway.
Wow! That post got me worried. I started reading and though not remembering writing it I though maybe I am 95.8 - until the female bits. Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc? Maybe we were separated at birth.
Fam-ATCO-shadow thing sound like a great idea!
Shame that someone who sits in an office will surely deem it to be dangerous and force our guests to wear ball-gags lest they distract and keep at least 100m from the ATCO they are shadowing lest they be blamed for the computer tripping and will only be allowed to visit by public transport to prove our green credentials. Haven't things become a bit silly?
Fam-ATCO-shadow thing sound like a great idea!
Shame that someone who sits in an office will surely deem it to be dangerous and force our guests to wear ball-gags lest they distract and keep at least 100m from the ATCO they are shadowing lest they be blamed for the computer tripping and will only be allowed to visit by public transport to prove our green credentials. Haven't things become a bit silly?
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<<Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc? >>
Please sir, me sir. I stayed as a coalface worker all my working life; no interest in management - I just loved talking to the planes.
Please sir, me sir. I stayed as a coalface worker all my working life; no interest in management - I just loved talking to the planes.
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Is it possible that there is another ATCO who enjoys the work of ATCOing and does not want a career/PDR/ASR/etc?
Perhaps there should be an "ATCO Only" club. Not sure who would vote to be chairperson though...
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I was wondering why there has never been a system put in place at Swanwick whereby pilots are detached to a controller or a sector for an entire shift.
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So glad to see I'm not alone.
coming up on 25yrs of tower work, I gave up all ojti, projects etc a long time ago. Now I come to work, i do my job, I unplug and go home... and still get paid the same without the extra hassles. I like my job ( maybe not some of the hours...), I enjoy the cut and thrust of tower work.
I want to be around aeroplanes - not drive dots, diamonds, squares, pentagons etc around a computer screen or work in an office looking at 4 walls and kissing things I would rather not.
I would be happy to have pilots do shadow ops to see it from the 'other side' but bearing in mind the above I would be deemed not suitable. ( I don't think they'd trust me as I have a habit of telling it like it REALLY is and not the way manglers would like it seen ).
coming up on 25yrs of tower work, I gave up all ojti, projects etc a long time ago. Now I come to work, i do my job, I unplug and go home... and still get paid the same without the extra hassles. I like my job ( maybe not some of the hours...), I enjoy the cut and thrust of tower work.
I want to be around aeroplanes - not drive dots, diamonds, squares, pentagons etc around a computer screen or work in an office looking at 4 walls and kissing things I would rather not.
I would be happy to have pilots do shadow ops to see it from the 'other side' but bearing in mind the above I would be deemed not suitable. ( I don't think they'd trust me as I have a habit of telling it like it REALLY is and not the way manglers would like it seen ).
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Great idea. Just make sure they do the shift with TMA North or South. Not sure they could handle the stress of 6 hrs in the rest room if they shadow Luton or Gatwick approach, nor the drudgery of "leave LAM hdg 270 speed 220" / "turn right hdg 245 when localiser established descend on the glidepath blah ...." ad infinitum over 6 hours plugged in on Heathrow. 
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Did you know that some of us at airports are the same! Been there done the office spherical objects, now plug in, whinge and then go home. Sounds like a good idea at the airports as well plus we have a nice view and they can see how bad all their colleagues are at landings as well! Liking it so of course it will never happen. Will have to go through 37 committees, numerous hazard analyses, manager sign offs and then the bod in charge of tea facilities will say no.
Last edited by terrain safe; 30th Oct 2012 at 19:44.
I posted this last January - it seems appropriate to the thread's contributions,so in case you missed it........ ;-)
The scene : Annual Staff Report Interview
GenMgr : "Well, the point is Cartman, you've done jolly well this year with your controlling - in fact you've done more SRA's than anyone & I've had good reports about your vectoring. The problem is that that I've marked down your Key Performance Indicator on your personal development needs !"
ETC : "Beg your pardon sir but I don't understand !
GM : "You have personal development needs in the areas of instructing, assessing, verifying, investigating, risk assessment, instruction drafting, team briefing and rostering"
ETC : "But sir, with all due respect, I'm an ATCO and I believe I'm pretty good at it too - my job is to expedite and maintain a safe and orderly flow of air traffic ! "
GM : "That's all very well Cartman but we senior managers have much broader issues to consider - you need to buck up lad !
Sounds familiar ?
The scene : Annual Staff Report Interview
GenMgr : "Well, the point is Cartman, you've done jolly well this year with your controlling - in fact you've done more SRA's than anyone & I've had good reports about your vectoring. The problem is that that I've marked down your Key Performance Indicator on your personal development needs !"
ETC : "Beg your pardon sir but I don't understand !
GM : "You have personal development needs in the areas of instructing, assessing, verifying, investigating, risk assessment, instruction drafting, team briefing and rostering"
ETC : "But sir, with all due respect, I'm an ATCO and I believe I'm pretty good at it too - my job is to expedite and maintain a safe and orderly flow of air traffic ! "
GM : "That's all very well Cartman but we senior managers have much broader issues to consider - you need to buck up lad !
Sounds familiar ?
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How many of these "awesome" TC controllers have shadowed one of their engineering colleagues for an 8 hour shift to find out how all the electronic gubbins works that makes them able to perform this fantastic job of theirs: not many I would guess. Same reason with the pilots, just give thanks for the dosh at the end of the month and get on with it.
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PB.. Yep, heard plenty like you... Heathrow is a doddle until you actually try it! I wouldn't do the TMA; it would be totally beyond me and I'm happy to admit it. What a lot of people don't understand is that ATC is a diverse profession. Because you can do one sector doesn't mean you can do them all. I worked Heathrow Tower for 20 years. After that, TC was a rest home!
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Got called into the watch manager's office one morning after a basin full of Daventry.....did I want to become the North Bank LCE coordinator? I said that unless there was a) money in it or b) that I'd derive any fun from doing it then I would have to decline his offer. He looked shocked....more than shocked, he was actually offended....though that might have had something to do with the adjectives I was using.
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You will see I am nothing to do with ATC but I have to say what a wonderful insight this thread is to some of you. It really does help to see the lighter side of things and how many of you perceive your roles.
Well done!
Well done!
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95.8.... I am a pilot of 40 years experience both RAF and Commercial and have traversed the London TMA many millions of times... and I would like to say that on every occasion without exception the service I have received has been exemplary... your self-deprecating attitude I'm sure is unwarranted and if I were 30 years younger I'm sure I would ask you to marry me... your suggestion that we should all observe each other going about our daily business is one I have been advocating for decades... good luck in your endeavours and may every day you spend looking after me and my fellow aviators be fruitful and satisfying X
Last edited by Smudger; 12th Nov 2012 at 19:08.
Way back at the end of my ATCO Cadet course in 1974, we had completed our 2 week courses (how to fly a Trident) with BA; I had the audacity to suggest the maybe cadets from the College of Air Training at Hamble (now closed) might benefit from a similar course ie 2 weeks of ATC Instruction. I was howled down with the usual cry 'who's going to pay for it?'.
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Hi there, we did something recently that worked for us. We asked our main Airline operators to send some of there crews (Capt and F/O) to come and play in our Simulator. They played the roll of an Area or an Approach controller (with some help). It did most certainly opened up their eyes and gave them a total different perspective of what ATC do.