Log taxi time? [Archive]

Halfbaked_Boy

29th Oct 2012, 13:52

Legally you can't log the time for the purposes of obtaining future licences and ratings, because it is only a flight from the point the aircraft moves under its own power, with the intention of becoming airborne.

The 'intention' would be the point at which a fly/no fly decision is made, which may occur after the aircraft begins moving. It doesn't matter whether you had intention to fly before removing the brakes/seeing the weather deteriorate.

There's nothing stopping you logging the time in your logbook for your own reference, so long as you mark it such that you remember not to take it into account when applying for further ratings/licences in the future.

Hope this helps :)

Okavango

29th Oct 2012, 14:32

Thanks all - makes perfect sense and I had only got half the story in my brain (the moving under own power). Would feel weird to log though I have a last line in my log book so wanted to tidy everything up. Seem to recall you don't necessarily need a license to taxi an aircraft so that would also stack up with ground movements not being loggable (unless you had the intention of becoming airborne in which case you'd obviously need the license).

172_driver

29th Oct 2012, 14:45

I don't think there is a right or wrong to this question.. the only right is the CAA inspector's interpretation of any single regulation.

Personally I don't log taxi time, but I had friends that used to do it as their 'intention was to take-off' (as written in the regulations). The fact they had to return back to the ramp for whatever reason (technical, weather) was irrelevant.

Ask 10 pilots.. get 20 different answers :)

AdamFrisch

29th Oct 2012, 15:11

I log tach/hobbs time. As far as I'm concerned, the minute the props are turning, it's loggable. Moving an aircraft around by its own power takes almost as much skill as flying it, albeit a different one. It's not like someone with no knowledge of flying/aircraft systems could get it started, so as soon as something demands special skills that you have been trained for, it's fair game.

The only time I wouldn't log it is if I start engines, but never move it.

S-Works

29th Oct 2012, 15:46

You can log what you want in a personal flying logbook. Its what you log and try to count towards the issue or revalidation/renewal of a rating that becomes the problem.

As an examiner if you tried to count the time spent taxiing for a flight that did not take place towards the issue/renewal/revalidation of a rating I would send you away with a flea in your ear with the paperwork unsigned.

The rules are very clear around what is considered as flight time, from the moment you release the brakes for the purpose of flight until you apply the brakes at the end of the FLIGHT. Props turning or taxiing around are not flight time. It's very simple.

Unusual Attitude

29th Oct 2012, 16:00

I actually had a very good example of this being a bit of an odd one on Sat as I took part in a small flypast at our local field.
As I was first through the plan was a stream takeoff low-level tight circuit and a max chat pass before standard circuit and landing, because of this I spent a good 15mins running the engine up to temp with only approx 5mins actually in the air. So does that mean I can log it as a 25mins flight? IE 15mins run up, 5mins flight and 5 mins taxi in and cool down?

It only went in my logbook as 15mins as I just use the 5mins either side rule I was taught 15years ago. I've had some monumental holds at Aberdeen over the years involving sitting for 45mins on the ground being shuffled around various holds before being able to get off....again, only ever logged that as 5mins either side also....

Regards

UA

JW411

29th Oct 2012, 16:21

When i used to work for Mrs Windsor it was all very simple. Only the time from take-off to landing went in the logbook. Taxi time was never recorded.

gijoe

29th Oct 2012, 16:41

..which is why you could get a credit upto a certain number of hours of taxiing time that you would have done whilst working for HM.

Civvy logging of time is different.

Don't know if you can still do this?

:ok:

BackPacker

29th Oct 2012, 16:46

EASA defines it slightly differently, but not less unambiguous...

(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft,
from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-016-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf - Page 22.

what next

29th Oct 2012, 16:51

Only the time from take-off to landing went in the logbook. Taxi time was never recorded.

Yes, the good old days! It was the same here before JAR/EU/EASA-FCL. Time in the logbook was time spent in the air. Nothing else. I value my pre-JAR logbook entries much more than those after, because I know that all this was real flying time. From then on, I can't even tell what percentage of the time was spent on the ground. Add to that co-pilots (or first officers if you prefer - I don't) who are eager to unfreeze their ATPLs in the shortest possible time and therefore put ridiculous taxi times on the log! (I must be the most hated captain in our small operation because I don't allow them to log more than ten minutes of taxi-time - unless it was reallllly long like in Frankfurt or Barcelona.)

The only reason to log taxi time alone that comes to mind is to generate some written record of the fact that you have been on duty that day, either as pilot or instructor. Otherwise the bean-counters may count that as an off-day. But for private flying certainly not.

Torque Tonight

29th Oct 2012, 16:51

Latest version of the regulation concerning 'Flight Time':

For aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means

the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the

purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at

the end of the flight;

This seems to have eliminated the ambiguity in previous regulations regarding if you taxied with the intention of flying but then for whatever reason did not fly, was the time loggable? The new wording above seems to clarify that if the taxy is associated with a flight it is loggable whereas taxying but not flying is not loggable.

Unusual Attitude

29th Oct 2012, 16:54

I did a couple of years flying HM's finest plastic motor gliders and indeed used to log that as JW411 said basis time in the air only. Back in the day you could also log that as Group A so it also used to go in my Civvie logbook with 5mins added either side for taxi time, thnking back thats probably where I got the 5mins either side habbit from.

That and rounding everything up / down to the nearest 5mins on the Form 700 since we werent the most mathematically talented bunch...

mikehallam

29th Oct 2012, 17:09

I'm with Adam on this one.

I/c time of the beast commences once the fan is running when it can kill folk or bend the 'plane. Control of the vehicle on the ground requires certain different but necessary skills too.

Perhaps one should log ground time as "pax" time though who is i/c at that phase when 'solo', I couln't possibly say !

To meet all folks' needs log books could/should possibly have four columns I/c on/off plus flying time t/o to t/d !

However after 40+ years of logging times I am unlikely to change now - it is a pretty personal thing after all.

mike hallam.

Big Pistons Forever

29th Oct 2012, 18:12

As was said on several posts you can log anything you want, but personally I would feel like a total fool making an entry in my "record of flying experience" AKA my logbook, for "flight time" that did not involve any flying.

As for logging flight time in the case of long ground holds, well I treat all flights the same. I record the time when the aircraft first starts moving, when it takes off, lands and when I reach my final parking spot. In the long run it all averages out as for every day there is a big delay there will be days where there is hardly any taxing.

Pace

29th Oct 2012, 19:17

This seems to have eliminated the ambiguity in previous regulations regarding if you taxied with the intention of flying but then for whatever reason did not fly, was the time loggable

Torque

That does not remove any ambiguity at all ? If you taxi with the purpose of taking off but then have to cancel and return then you have still taxied with the purpose of taking off ie you may get a large mag drop which will not clear!
The flight commences with the taxi and ends with brakes on and shutdown!
Taxiing requires pilot skills and decisions one which maybe to abort the flight!
IMO you consider the whole flight from brake release to shutdown as the flight!
Flying is very expensive and pilot need hours so make a meal if it and grab every minute you legally can!
Otherwise what do you do ? Not record the hours on autopilot because your not flying the aircraft?
You are in charge of that aircraft whether its in flight, taxiing or being tested for flight.
Record brakes off to shutdown with pride!

Pace

Pace

29th Oct 2012, 19:27

Gertrude the Wombat

29th Oct 2012, 19:46

Taxiing requires pilot skills and decisions one which maybe to abort the flight!
Whilst that is clearly the case ...
Flying is very expensive and pilot need hours so make a meal if it and grab every minute you legally can!
... any rental outfit that tried to charge me for not flying because their aircraft had an unacceptable fault would discover that I wasn't terribly keen on paying!

Sillert,V.I.

29th Oct 2012, 19:46

I'd agree with Pace & always log time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power until the parking brake is set.

I'd also agree that you may choose, if you wish, to log time on the same basis if you do not actually become airborne providing that the intention of flight was present when the aircraft first moved.

This would also generally be in keeping with the rules for accident reporting, which is defined as "an occurrence assocated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked".

If I'm doing something for which I could be called to account to the AAIB if it goes t**s up, then IMO that's flying time & should be logged as such.

And if anyone is also reading the PA-18 thread, several of the posters there are saying the hardest part of flying the Cub is taxying the aircraft.

robin

29th Oct 2012, 20:09

I don't think you should concentrate too much on 'intention to fly'. The rules make it clear that a flight should have taken place ie wheels left the ground

AdamFrisch

29th Oct 2012, 20:15

I agree with Mike Hallam/Sillert/Pace et al. It's not like you're exempt from any responsibilities when the prop is turning but aircraft is not moving - you'd still get nailed to the wall if any accident was to happen or braking any rule. So that's PIC time any way you slice it.

S-Works

29th Oct 2012, 20:24

I said it earlier. Log what you want, just don't expect time logged outside the requirements for issue/renew/revalidation of a rating to count.

If you really are so desperate for house in your logbook, then why not just Parker pen them.......

AdamFrisch

29th Oct 2012, 20:27

I'm not desperate for the time necessarily, it just makes things 10 times easier - you log Hobbs/tach time (can never remember which one is which - the one that goes off engine time), same as in the airplane log. No need to write down and remember takeoff times, landing times and deductions for taxi, runups etc. It's just more logical.

Pace

29th Oct 2012, 20:30

Robin

I flew a jet today to Geneva. As far as I am concerned my operation of the aircraft commences when myself and the first officer / co pilot use our skills to take the aircraft from cold to running, flying and back to cold again at the end of the flight!
This includes the start up procedures and checks as well as getting start up clearances, taxi instructions etc.
Ok that maybe regarded as over the top so the brakes off to brakes on is a good compromise!
It is the operation of the aircraft which is relevant not just the fun bit of actually being in the air!
As I stated do you discount autopilot time as your not actually flying the aircraft as such?
Intention to fly is important!
With my jet I may start up with no intention to fly maybe to go through engine checks with an engineer?
Whenever there is an intention to fly brakes off to brakes on is a compromise of a period of time where you are operating an aircraft so log every minute you can and do so with no regrets as the whole period requires your skills as a pilot and you are operating the aircraft!
Otherwise take off to touchdown do you take the first touchdown or the subsequent bounces : ) or when you come to a physical stop ; )
When I touch my jet down at 105 kts do I throw my hands in the air ? Job done! I am no longer a flying pilot as it goes through 80 kts 40 kts etc in the roll out ????

Pace

BEagle

29th Oct 2012, 21:31

When I flew Mrs. E Windsor's mighty Vickers FunBus around the world, we used to be required to note down 'Off chocks, airborne, landing and on chocks' times for the journey log and for the stats people. So it was very easy - off chocks to on chocks in my civvie log book, airborne to landing in the auth sheets and my military log book.

Even when landing back from a trip with a shopaholic navigator who had to get out and clear customs on the other side of the aerodrome - the rest of us being within our entitlements. So we sat there with the engines running for 10 min until he was almost back, then taxyed off to our parking spot, making the bug.ger scrounge a lift back to the jet. That taught him a lesson!

robin

29th Oct 2012, 21:37

Pace

I take your point, but with my little toy, it makes no sense to claim more than flight time + 10mins.

The500man

29th Oct 2012, 21:38

I posted this exact question a few years ago, and as far as the CAA were concerned when I asked them the key phrase was "after landing". Since I didn't take off they didn't consider it loggable. That was a few years ago though, and as someone else has already pointed out you can log whatever you want and no one will ever check it! ;)

Pace

29th Oct 2012, 22:36

You can log whatever you want and no one will check it

There is a certain truth to that as well as the fact that there is a grey area.
I feel sorry for those pilots who intend to make a career from flying the ones who do not have the hours which make them of interest to anyone yet cannot afford to build the required hours without someone taking them on in one capacity or another in the first place.

Years ago it was possible to buy time loggable time in the USA where type ratings were not required and the first officer/co pilot only required a Multi IR to legally act as a co pilot on complex aircraft which required type ratings in Europe!
Do I blame pilots from expanding their flight times in any way they could?
No.
Morally you are flying an aircraft from start up to shutdown! Flying is an expensive business as long as you tick the boxes you are good to go! Does anyone really care? I doubt it as long as you tick the boxes!

Pace

S-Works

30th Oct 2012, 07:31

Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight......

Flight time is flight time simple. Logging anything else is fraud. If you use it to secure advancement in your career and get caught you will be throwing away a lot of investment.

Pontius

30th Oct 2012, 08:05

I'm with Bose-X on this one. People, it's a flying hours log book, not a driving hours log, nor a 'duties connected with flying' log book. All this nonsense about being PIC with the engines running etc, is just that, nonsense. Maybe I should start adding another 1.5 hours before a flight when I report and assume the duties of PIC :rolleyes:

Admittedly the rules are not absolutely clear. Maybe something like, 'Moves under its own power and subsequently takes-off....' would quell the argument but, still, we're talking about a flying log book, so it doesn't take a genius to figure out driving an aircraft is not flying it.

I also don't like it when people dispense what they've always done as being legal and advise others to do likewise. Adam's use of the Hobbs, or whatever 'engine running' meter is used, is wrong, pure and simple. There is nowhere in the rules that says from start up to shut down, so others should not use that method. Sitting on the ramp before taxying on a freezing cold day with the engine running, waiting for the oil temp to get into the green is not recordable as the aircraft has not moved under its own power.

Nobody is arguing that taxying an aircraft doesn't involve another 'skill set' but don't delude yourselves that it takes Diety-like skill and should count as flying.

So, in summary, the time from brakes off to brakes on, with a flight in between, is legal. Anything else is not legal and, quite frankly, smacks of desperation to pad out logbooks.

PS: I agree that I would not be coughing up and money for a rental aircraft that wasn't fit for purpose (that's flying, not driving ;) )

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 08:50

Pontus

You cannot have it both ways ; ) first you go on about how taxiing is not flying and then you state that you should log hours brakes off to brakes on which is correct !
With your strong held principals why not be purist and just log. Takeoff to touchdown as any time either side of those times is morally wrong!
It's always been brakes off to brakes on times !

Pace

Unusual Attitude

30th Oct 2012, 08:51

Nobody is arguing that taxying an aircraft doesn't involve another 'skill set' but don't delude yourselves that it takes Diety-like skill and should count as flying.

Dunno, I did once get the tail off the ground doing a power check sat at the hold in a taildragger on a very windy day, technically part of the aircraft was actually flying! :ok:

BabyBear

30th Oct 2012, 09:46

Flight time is flight time simple. Logging anything else is fraud. If you use it to secure advancement in your career and get caught you will be throwing away a lot of investment.

Bose, you should know better than me, but my belief is that most ppls are issued based on logging an amount of taxy time, which although not a career in itself it is issuing a licence.

BB

Pontius

30th Oct 2012, 09:49

You cannot have it both ways ; ) first you go on about how taxiing is not flying and then you state that you should log hours brakes off to brakes on which is correct !

Don't be obtuse, Pace; I'm saying you log 'brakes off to brakes on' (moving under its own power) because that's what the regulations say i.e that's the legally correct definition, rather than someone's 'take' on the matter. I'm also saying you can't log taxying around, without flying, as flight time; an important point that seems to have been lost in this discussion. Taking it to ridiculous extremes, why bother getting airborne at all when, in the opinion of some of the posters here, taxying time should count as flight time, without slipping the surly bonds?

My 'strongly held principles' are simply obeying the regulations, rather than adding my own slant. When I was in the military I did just log flight time (take-off to landing) because that's what's done. In the civilian flying world the rules are 'block' times, so I obey those rules. You're always so keen to let us know how you've flown a 'jet', so you must hold at least a CPL and, therefore, should know this stuff without maligning, as 'strong held principles', someone who does abide by the written word instead of 'that's what I've always done'.

JW411

30th Oct 2012, 10:07

gijoe:

"....which is why you could get a credit up to a certain number of hours of taxying time that you would have done whilst working for HM".

I did my ATPL in 1977 and I don't think that concession existed then. In my case it didn't matter for I had more than enough hours anyway.

Just as a matter of debate, I was once number 54 in the conga line for take-off at JFK one particularly foul night. It took us over 3 hours from brakes off to finally getting airborne.

How should I have recorded that in my logbook?

dublinpilot

30th Oct 2012, 11:00

Pontius,

I think Pace is correct in so far that you are trying to have it both ways.

If you taxi for the purpose of taking off (which is all the the regulations require) and then subsequently do actually take off, then you agree that the taxi time is logable.

If you taxi for the purpose of taking off and then for some reason don't actually take off, you state that you shouldn't log it because it's only taxi time.

It's the same time, same actions. If I was a barrister, I'd claim that it's perverse that an action subsequent to the taxiing which is to be logged could determine wether that taxi time was loggable or not.

The problem here is that the regulations consider the flight time to start once you move for the purpose of taking off. Not when you actually take off. That is a clear and undisputable fact on reading the leglisation.

The difficulty is the defination of when the flight time ends. Apparently it ends when you next come to rest after landing. But if you didn't take off, your next landing could be days, weeks or months later...in fact it could be never. So that too is a nonsense.

So we're left with a circumstance which the leglisation didn't allow for and as such there is no clear right or wrong answer.

By the way the phrase "first moves for the purpose of taking off" is usually interperted as when it first taxis with the intension of taking flight, but it could of course be read differently. Perhaps that taxi is just moving for the purpose of getting to the runway, and first moving for the purpose of taking off is actually commencing your take off run. Of course that would still leave the problem of what happens if you abort during the take off run!

dp

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 11:09

Pontious

This is a private pilot forum and it has always been brakes off to brakes on!
Whether someone takes their takeoff to land time and adds 10 mins taxi and 5 minutes taxi back in or uses their actual taxi time is irrelevant.
Yes I hold an ATP and my job of flying the aircraft in my opinion is cold to cold although I agree the official stance is brakes off to brakes on with takeoff and touchdown times recorded and that is what I record.
I am often approached by pilots looking for flying and especially in these economic times really feel for the guys who need the time yet cannot get anyone to take them on in complex aircraft to get the time so can quite understand that they will not be frugal on maximizing the time that they do get!
When we had an RAF yes that was a route to take with someone paying for all your flying but we do not have an RAF anymore well not as it used to be.
Good luck to them I do not need the time.

Pace

Crankshaft

30th Oct 2012, 11:47

A slightly different aspect:
Log book issues aside, in commersial ops theres a limit of 100 block hours per 28 days.

So there you are on one of those days: spending 45 minutes in the que for remote de-icing, followed by 30 minutes queing at the holding point. Once as number one the snow gets worser and after another 20 minutes waiting for snow clearing your hold over time expires. New de-icing followed by new taxi etc. Two hours after your initial off blocks time you start your take-off roll only to discover a fault that requires a reject. You taxi back to stand after a total 2 1/2 hours and the flight is cancelled.

Does it add up to your 100 hour limit or not?

Pontius

30th Oct 2012, 12:07

DublinPilot,

If I was a barrister, I'd claim that it's perverse that an action subsequent to the taxiing which is to be logged could determine wether that taxi time was loggable or not.

I agree with you that the definition is not defined clearly enough. I'd be willing to bet a few pints that the rule makers thought it was enough to assume we'd actually go flying during our flight time but, it seems, they were remiss in their assumptions.

The difficulty is the defination of when the flight time ends. Apparently it ends when you next come to rest after landing. But if you didn't take off, your next landing could be days, weeks or months later...in fact it could be never. So that too is a nonsense.

I would say that since you haven't actually flown, then your time hasn't started. The purposeof the flight (and taxying) was to go flying. Since you haven't flown you haven't achieved that purpose, ergo you can't claim it as flight time.

As I previously alluded, let's take it to ridiculous extremes: An imaginary pilot needs 15 hours experience for an imaginary rating. He gets into an aircraft 15 times during the course of a week and taxys around the airfield for an hour each time, without ever actually getting airborne (there's no need for any reason, he just says that the original purpose was to go flying). Do you think he is now qualified for that rating?

It seems pretty obvious to me that unless you achieve the purpose then you haven't sensibly abided by the definition. Clearly just having the purpose seems entirely reasonable and sensible to some of the bar-room lawyers here present and, for them alone, I would suggest the authorities need to reword the regs.

dublinpilot

30th Oct 2012, 12:26

I would say that since you haven't actually flown, then your time hasn't started. The purposeof the flight (and taxying) was to go flying. Since you haven't flown you haven't achieved that purpose, ergo you can't claim it as flight time.

But haven't you now redefined the time that the flight commences? The leglisation gives you a clear and crisp defination for the time the flight starts and you are choosing to ignore it to suit your own view ;)

As I previously alluded, let's take it to ridiculous extremes: An imaginary pilot needs 15 hours experience for an imaginary rating. He gets into an aircraft 15 times during the course of a week and taxys around the airfield for an hour each time, without ever actually getting airborne (there's no need for any reason, he just says that the original purpose was to go flying). Do you think he is now qualified for that rating?

Nobody is qualified for any rating without taking a skills test. It's extremely unlikey that pilot would be able to pass any such test.

Let's ask ourselves why did the leglisators include the requirement for the first movement must be for the purpose of flight.

We can never really know what was in their minds, but it could well be that they did want to take account of the fact that the pilot is responsible for the aircraft during taxi and wanted that time to count, but didn't want to see a situation where engineers taxiing a B747 around the ramp (which they are quite entitled to do without a pilots licence) logging flight time.

If that was what was in their mind then the solution is simple. Make the taxi time only count if it was for the purpose of taking off. Then the engineer couldn't record the time but the pilot could.

If this was the case the leglisators did actually intend the taxi time to be recorded, and it's the pilots duties that is important and not the subsequent take off or abondoned flight.

But as I said earlier, because the leglisation as worded produces a nonsense answer we're left to guess whether the leglisators intended to record the time the pilot was in case for, or only do so if it actually took off. Those who think it allows this taxi time are equally as valid as those who think it shouldn't be as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, I've had one in the past, where I spent maybe 10 minutes taxiing around Dublin Airport, then after 45 minutes at the holding point waiting for a gap in the take off/landing queue I gave up and had a 5 minute taxi back to our parking spot. The intention to fly was real. I didn't record the time in my log book (even though I had to pay for the tach time.) But even still I think those who argue that it is recordable have an arguable case under the leglisation as drafted.

dp

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 12:35

Pontius

Let me give you another possible scenario and lets make it a private jet ;)
You start up have a filed flight plan, taxi out, run through all the checks, line up and start the takeoff roll!

Before V1 the door unlocked light illuminates and suspecting a contact problem but not sure you decide to abort the takeoff and clear the runway to inspect the door and baggage bays.

What do you do with that 25 mins of time record it or ignore it?
Do you consider the start of the takeoff as flight or only the point the wheels leave the runway?
On landing do you consider the landing roll as flight or only to the point that the aircraft Tires touch the runway?
As we are being pedantic lets be pedantic and remember the law is pedantic! Poorly defined in law means no prosecution.
It is not for the pilot to determine what he thinks the law meant to mean only what it says in black and white.
As the saying goes poor law is no law!

Pace

bagurxvi

30th Oct 2012, 13:28

I have been told you can log the time from the moment your taking out the chocks and taxing to the time you have finished to taxing after landing to your parking place. So basically you can log the taxi time. Many don't do it because they believe flight time mean from take-off until landing and they loose precious time.

Pontius

30th Oct 2012, 14:36

Okay, one last post from me on this matter because (a)I've already said what I believe and why and (b)because I'm acutely aware of hogging a thread where others may well have an informed opinion. I'm not running away but it does little to keep repeating the same message.

Nobody is qualified for any rating without taking a skills test. It's extremely unlikey that pilot would be able to pass any such test.

DublinPilot, I think you're being quite disingenuous and that detracts from your previous considered replies. You know full well what I'm trying to say; taxying around an airfield does not equal flying experience, whether required for an imaginary rating or any other matter requiring flying hours. I was trying to make the point that, by your reckoning, a person could log considerable hours without ever taking to the air. That's quite plainly daft and goes a long way to explaining why the regulators didn't think it necessary to state the obvious.

I have read the rest of your post but I don't think there's any engineer who thinks taxying time would count as flying time and, therefore, wouldn't ever cross their mind to try and log it as such.

Pace,

What do you do with that 25 mins of time record it or ignore it?

in terms of hours, I have ignored ground turn backs in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I know you said we were to consider a private jet but let's just say for the sake of argument that you were going to get paid for the block hours spent flying your passengers from A to B. Would you expect them to pay for that flight, considering they're still on the ground at A?

Do you consider the start of the takeoff as flight or only the point the wheels leave the runway?

I consider it as when the wheels leave the runway and the aircraft flies. The rest I consider as driving (taxying by another name). I don't fly my car.

On landing do you consider the landing roll as flight or only to the point that the aircraft Tires touch the runway?

I consider landing as when the tyres touch the runway. The landing roll I consider as driving. In any case, the point of landing is irrelevant to the discussion, since the regulations define flight hours as continuing until 'block in', so it doesn't matter whether you're flying or driving after a flight.

It is not for the pilot to determine what he thinks the law meant to mean only what it says in black and white.

I know that my logbook only includes hours that I've actually flown. By your liberal reading of the regulations to suit your own agenda I'm not convinced yours would do the same. It matters not that flying is expensive or flying hours hard to come by; padding your log book with flying hours when you haven't flown makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you interpret the rules and I'm quite certain the Regulator would agree.

BackPacker

30th Oct 2012, 14:37

By the way the phrase "first moves for the purpose of taking off" is usually interperted as when it first taxis with the intension of taking flight, but it could of course be read differently.

My two cents...

"for the purpose of taking off" means I'm taxiing out with the full intent of taking off once I reach the runway. That intention may change due to a technical problem or weather or anything else, but that doesn't make the time any less loggable. So it can go into the logbook, although obviously with zero take-offs and landings. And you might want to write in the comments why the flight was aborted.

In my view the legislators wrote the phrase "for the purpose of taking off" to contrast it with "for the purpose of taxiing to the pumps/hangar/maintenance bay/sightseeing across the airfield/whatever", which clearly is not loggable.

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 15:30

I know that my logbook only includes hours that I've actually flown. By your liberal reading of the regulations to suit your own agenda I'm not convinced yours would do the same. It matters not that flying is expensive or flying hours hard to come by; padding your log book with flying hours when you haven't flown makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you interpret the rules and I'm quite certain the Regulator would agree

Pontius

My hours are taken as brakes off to Brakes on which is the normal and have always been that way . I have never known a Civilian pilot record only takeoff to touchdown times.

What is in question and not clear is the intention to fly part and whether an aborted flight can be logged where there was an intention to fly or not.

Why you have to make insinuations about my own log book which you have no knowledge of beggars belief and is insulting.

Please also quote the law which makes you so certain that the regulator would agree with your interpretation?

Pace

Big Pistons Forever

30th Oct 2012, 16:14

Call me old fashion but I still think that you should have to do some actual "flying" before you get to count time in the aircraft as "flight time".

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 16:27

Call me old fashion but I still think that you should have to do some actual "flying" before you get to count time in the aircraft as "flight time".

BPF

Way too expensive and dangerous to do real flying :{ Far better just to taxi up and down the taxiways sporting a pair of Raybans looking good for all the female admirers and pretending you intend to take off rather than actually doing it :E

Pace

727gm

30th Oct 2012, 16:42

If I FLEW, I log flight flight including taxi time.

If no flight, either run-up discrepancy, deteriorating WX, or even a rejected T/O, the time goes in the little red book, as that time legally counts toward duty day, week, monthly & yearly totals....

But with no flight, I don't log it in my permanent pilot logbook.

JW411

30th Oct 2012, 19:00

Pace:

"My hours are taken as brakes off to brakes on which is the normal and have always been that way. I have never known a Civilian pilot record only take-off to touchdown times".

So what would you have recorded in the example that I gave of being stuck in the conga line at JFK for more than 3 hours? Surely you would not have recorded those hours as flying time?

Let's face it, when I took the park brake off having dismissed the tug, it was my intention to go flying. However, since there were 53 aircraft ahead of me, I took the park brake off another 53 times always with the intention to go flying but couldn't because there were multiple obstructions in front of me.

Now let us not confuse the various methods of recording time. The most important time to be recorded is when you are getting paid by the block hour. In that case there is no conflict. You record the time from initially moving the aircraft until you stop it.

However, is that what you put in your flying logbook? Would you really put 3 hours sitting in a queue down as flying time?

You also make a statement that you have never known a Civilian pilot to record only take-off to touchdown. I know lots of them but then I have perhaps been around for a while longer than you.

You might also be interested to know that when I was flying under FAA Part 121, the Flight Time Limitations were always measured in "time aloft" which was clearly defined as take-off to landing. Perhaps they still do?

None of which makes any difference to what individuals actually enter into their own flying log books. I suppose it boils down to whether you can keep a straight face at the subsequent board of enquiry and whether you can live with your conscience. How can any pilot log flying time when they don't actually go flying?

Duty time yes but flying time no.

Now I know you are dying to ask me what I put in my logbook when I got stuck in the conga line. The answer is easy; five minutes at either end.

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 19:47

JW411

I personally log brakes off to brakes on as you are piloting the aircraft whether taxiing or in the air.
I checked with some friends at EasyJet and they record engine start to chocks on so slightly more than brakes off to brakes on and that is perfectly acceptable to the CAA.
I also checked on a return technically its legal to record a return where there is a genuine intent to fly although most do not bother.
As for my pay its on a day rate flying private jets.
But I am told I am not recording enough!!! engine start to chocks on is the norm with jets so I cannot win :{
As for your three hour example I would not log that either.

Pace

S-Works

30th Oct 2012, 21:30

Pious Pontios if you are so puritanical about logging non flying hours I hope you deduct autopilot time as you cannot be pinching George's time can you ?

Sometimes I wonder if you are a prick or a troll.......:ok:

robin

30th Oct 2012, 21:45

Absolutely

I think there is a problem here between duty time and company SOPs and for mere mortals like me where no-one cares if I fly or not,

The rules would seem to be quite clear that only time from brakes off to brakes on AFTER LANDING counts. I don't need the hours for a professional licence and, as long as I have the 12 hours in the second year I am only interested in airborne time + 5 minutes before take off + 5 minutes after touchdown

I'm happy that reflects my own (amateur) requirements. What others do is up to them.

Pace

30th Oct 2012, 22:42

Bose

I only act like a troll towards someone who is rude or insulting to me! Nevertheless my comments to Pontius were childish retaliation so I have removed them.
Maybe you would remove the copied post containing those comments?

Pace

AdamFrisch

31st Oct 2012, 04:15

Obviously, if you're caught in the 3hr conga line at JFK then even the most unscrupulous pilot would not record that time, I hope. I think most pilots are honest people. It's a personal honour to make sure you're not cooking the books. Personally, I have zero desire to work professionally as a pilot, so my time is irrelevant to anyone but myself - I have no incentive to boost flying time. But the logical way to log time is to envelope all elements of flying - that includes taxi for the purpose of flying and all the skills that entails.

Wanna bet FlightSafety and SimCom have a huge section on ground operations for a TR? If that's not "flying", then I hope we can omit that part of the course and save some money in the future. Just get the ground handlers to drive it out to the rwy and the real pilots will take it from there....

BBK

31st Oct 2012, 05:35

Adam

That makes me unscrupulous -oh dear! I know the misery of a long taxy out at JFK. In my company the aircraft logs block time, push back to chocks on, and flight time. I really don't need the hours but I merely log the block time that goes in both the tech log and the flight report. I can't remember the exact definition in UK air law but isn't "flight time" something like what I have described above ie "from the time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purposes of flight until it comes to rest". Happy to stand corrected on the precise definition.

When I was in a flying club I believe most folks logged what they had been charged for. In an aircraft with a Hobbs meter that seemed to be broadly equivalent to taxy time. One club had a flight meter that activated on take off as its trigger was an airspeed of 30 kts-ish and here we were charged a flat rate airborne plus ten minutes. I liked that system as it didn't encourage anyone to taxy too fast or rush their checks.

The UK military, I believe, log airborne only and so I think they agreed with the UK CAA, as was(!), a correction factor to "civilianise" their hours.

BBK

Pom pom

31st Oct 2012, 07:43

I can't believe I've just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread. What is there to discuss (SOPs, company rules excepted)?

In the civvy world: brakes off (start logging time), taxy, take off, fly, land, taxy, brakes on (stop logging time).

If the reason the taxying was done was not to move the flying machine to a place where it safely could become airborne, and did become airborne, then it wasn't for the purpose of flight. (What's all this drivel about "intention"?)

IMHO, if one wants to log more flying time, then go spend some more money and do some more FLYING!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

aeronautic1

27th Jan 2013, 20:46

I logged all the time I washed a Galaxy until I had enough time to go to FS for my initial in the Galaxy:E.

papa600

30th Jan 2013, 12:38

I log blocks off to blocks on which as has been posted before at Aberdeen could mean 20 min added to your flight time where you are not actually airborne. The minute you move the wheels the aircraft is under your control.

Sitting at the hold waiting on heli's and commercial jets to arrive and possibly getting a tour of the airfield around various holds to get a slot all involve pilot skill. I would defintely count this towards any revalidation / rating time provided I actually got airborne.

phiggsbroadband

30th Jan 2013, 14:19

Hi, 'First moves for the purpose of taking off' must imply that the NOSE OF THE AIRCRAFT IS IN LINE WITH THE RUNWAY DIRECTION.
If you push the power levers forward whilst still on the taxiway you are not intending to take-off!

The other anomoly is that on some airstrips you can land and stop at the pumps, all within 30 seconds. So how does that equate with adding 5 minutes taxi time, before and after flight?

Torque Tonight

30th Jan 2013, 15:45

Another zombie thread back from the dead.

I do not think the rules are quite as cryptic as many people seem to think, but many seem to draw a far more restrictive conclusion than what is written down.

There is no reasonable doubt that taxi time associated with a flight is loggable under civil regulations. It is absolutely standard to log off chocks to on chocks. Your interpretation phiggsbroadband is incorrect. Unless you teleport from the parking position to the runway then the aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off when it starts taxying. I think this scenario of taxying to fly, and then actually flying, is beyond doubt.

Another scenario is taxying without intent to fly and not flying, such as going to the fuel pumps and then back to the parking. I think everyone would agree that this cannot be logged.

The situation that always causes a difference of opinion is if you taxy with genuine intent to takeoff, but for genuine reasons do not fly (as happened to me once last week). I know which side I come down on and I think the rules have always been quite clear, but as this thread shows, this matter always divides opinion. I am incidentally a stickler for the veracity and integrity of my logbook.

Pull what

30th Jan 2013, 16:04

Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight.....

Amazing to hear an examiner say this. The aircraft, for the purpose of determining flight time for the recording of a pilots experience, consideration of fatigue and the application of the minimum equipment list and deferred defect schedule is deemed to be flying when it moves off chocks under its own power for the purpose of becoming airborne.

phiggsbroadband

30th Jan 2013, 18:03

Hi Torque, I dont think that 'chocks' are mentioned in any official publications.

We pull our airplane off chocks in the hanger, and then half an hour later, when we have done the pre-flight checks and loaded the passengers, we start the engine and taxi for the purpose of doing the power checks.
Only if these are satisfactory, and the wind is suitable do we even think of going onto the runway for departure.

Once I got all the way to the 23 runway-hold position before the tower anounced 'clear to take-off, wind 320 18 knots gusting 30 knots'. As this was beyond the plane's (and my) capabilities, we turned around and parked back at our hanger, and no flight time was recorded.

btw. Some GPSs record and log flight times, I can only assume they use >30 knots and/or change of altitude, as their calculation of total flight time. If you use this method, then just add 10 minutes for the taxying time, even if it was just 3 minutes or 30 minutes, and that is the figure to put in your flying logbook.

robin

30th Jan 2013, 22:18

Quote:
Morally you are wrong.... You are not 'flying' the aircraft until it actually take flight.....
Amazing to hear an examiner say this. The aircraft, for the purpose of determining flight time for the recording of a pilots experience, consideration of fatigue and the application of the minimum equipment list and deferred defect schedule is deemed to be flying when it moves off chocks under its own power for the purpose of becoming airborne.

Not really. Our advice is that we only count the flight time for our maintenance schedule and certainly not chocks to chock.

So we have 3 options

1) Chock to chock with a flight for the personal logbook
2) Take-off to landing for engine/airframe/propellor hours
3) Whatever the group/club charges. For us it is airborne+ 10minutes.

Level Attitude

30th Jan 2013, 22:37

I do not like Part-FCL but on this topic it is very clear.

1) A pilot is required to log flights flown
If wheels did not leave ground then nothing is loggable
(Your Log Book: So could always write an account summary of a
taxi that did not turn in to a flight. and why - but no times can
go in to any column.)

2) If flight occured, was it intentional?
If not then nothing goes in Log Book
eg Accelerate-Stop/Rejected T/Off practice - Hit a bump and acft
momentarily airborne = nothing loggable

3) If intentional flight occured, what was flight time?
Clearly defined, and a 40min Taxi & Hold for 1 x 5min cct can legally
be logged as 45min of flight time if wished.

In practice, as discussed at length, there are different ways of noting
the start and end of flight time and I would suggest all are acceptable

4) If flight time recorded then what was Pilot Function(s) time(s)?

AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time

GENERAL

(c) Format of the record:

(1)details of flights flown under commercial air transport …..

(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following
logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the
relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE

(d) FCL.050 requires holders of a pilot licence to record details of all flights flown. This logbook
enables pilot licence holders to record flying experience in a manner which will facilitate this
process while providing a permanent record of the licence holders flying. Pilots who fly regularly
aeroplanes and helicopters or other aircraft categories are recommended to maintain separate
logbooks for each aircraft category.

(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken.
All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.

(f) The particulars of every flight in the course of which the holder of a flight crew licence acts as
a member of the operating crew of an aircraft are to be recorded in the appropriate columns using
one line for each flight, provided that if an aircraft carries out a number of flights upon the same day
returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive
flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.

(g) Flight time is recorded:

(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first
moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

and because the AMC's definition doesn't exactly match Part-FCLs
　
FCL.010 Definitions
Flight time’:
for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft
first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

FullWings

31st Jan 2013, 10:15

I think a lot of this depends on the definition of a 'flight'.

If we do a RTS (Return To Stand) in the jet, if we've moved under our own power we have to record the time in the aircraft log and it counts as a sector. Subsequently, we have to take that into account in terms of FTLs on the day. Does this count towards the 100/900 running totals? Our tracking systems think it does.

Occasionally there are 'taxiing duties', which involve moving stuff around the airport. That counts for 'duty at the behest of the employer' but not for flying hours in our records.

Taking those two paragraphs together it would appear (in the company I work for, anyway) that taxiing time with the intention of flight is 'loggable', and indeed should be logged. We have plenty of lawyers, so one would assume that they'd mulled this one over.

Re: logging time spent in the queue at the holding point (commercial ops.), like at JFK, I think the relevant authorities might take a rather dim view should they need to check your logbook after an incident and it didn't match up with "official" block times. Especially if you'd busted 100/900 in the process...

Torque Tonight

31st Jan 2013, 12:11

phiggs fair point, I would have been more accurate to say brakes off to brakes on. Talk of brakes, chocks and 'aircraft moving under its own power' are nearly but not exactly synonymous.

A few things that are certainly red herrings interms of logging time as a pilot of civil aeroplanes are: startup to shutdown, Hobbs, flight time for engineering purposes, any clubs method for charging for rental, how things are done in the military, on helicopters or under other jurisdictions.

The new FCL wording is clearly an attempt to clarify this issue but, like the rest of the new legislation, is poorly worded with many unforeseen (but entirely foreseeable) consequences. To steal the above example of taxying out, but having to carry out a rejected takeoff and FCL suggesting that the time is not loggable is very odd.

if you are carrying out the duties of a licenced pilot and are also carrying the legal responsibilities that go with it, it is appropriate that the time should be logged. If the authorities would not tolerate an unqualified member of the public carrying out certain actions, but instead demand an appropriately qualified pilot, then thatntime should be recorded accordingly. You can guarantee that in the event of the rejected takeoff you would be recorded on the incident paperwork as part of the operating crew.

As others have rightly said, if you question the legitimacy of recording taxy time associated with a flight, have a think about arguing your point of view in court after busting crew duty limits, flight time limitations or having had an accident.

photofly

31st Jan 2013, 12:24

Big Pistons Forever

31st Jan 2013, 14:36

Canadian regulations use the same terminology ("flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;") and it is settled fact here that the pilot logs time from brakes off to brakes on.

Aircraft maintenance requirements are based on accumulated air time, which is wheels up to wheels down.

If you taxi out to intending to fly but return because of a mechanical issue, that's 0.2 (or whatever) in your logbook. If you taxi just to reposition the aircraft on the ground, that's not logged.

IMO Photofly is one of a very small number of Canadian pilots who believe that taxi time with no actual flight occurring can be logged. Transport Canada certainly does not, and presenting a log book to any flying school or commercial air service with trip entries where flight time was credited towards total flight time for flights that did not involve any flying; would invite ridicule.

Torque Tonight

31st Jan 2013, 15:00

Whilst one of either BPF or photofly is surely correct about Canadian practices, what goes on in other jurisdictions does not answer the original question which was UK-centric.

FullWings

31st Jan 2013, 16:20

Also, you have to look at it from the different perspectives of a) needing more hours of a particular type for ratings, etc. and b) needing less hours, for FTL reasons.

I'm not sure the CAA/FAA/whatever discriminate between whether you're doing it wrong in one direction or the other. I think they might have words either way... :ooh:

Sillert,V.I.

31st Jan 2013, 16:40

I'm not sure the CAA/FAA/whatever discriminate between whether you're doing it wrong in one direction or the other.

Whatever you do, I'd say the important thing is to be consistent. If it came to the crunch and you've been logging taxi time in different ways to suit your purposes at the time, it will not help you get the benefit of whatever discretion there may be.

photofly

31st Jan 2013, 18:06

Transport Canada certainly does not, and presenting a log book to any flying school or commercial air service with trip entries where flight time was credited towards total flight time for flights that did not involve any flying; would invite ridicule.That's a strong assertion, for which no evidence at all is offered, and one I don't believe is correct.

It's also false on the plain English meaning of the relevant regulations. If leaving the ground was actually necessary to log the time, then the regulations would say "from the time the aircraft first moves before taking off." The word "intention" is in the regulation - both UK and Canadian - for a specific reason.