Handheld transceiver for 11 Nov

[tmmorris]

Our school/CCF Remembrance Sunday parade usually includes a flypast by a local vintage aircraft - this year we hope to have a Tiger Moth. In previous years this has been coordinated by handheld radio with an Aldis lamp as a backup. However, the member of staff who owned the radio has recently retired to Gozo and we don't between us have a radio... (We have managed to borrow an Aldis lamp. Funny how that was easier than the radio!)

If anyone in the Abingdon/Oxford area a. has and b. is prepared to lend us a transceiver for Sunday 11 Nov I'd be very grateful indeed - very happy to collect from you and return in person. Please PM me if so.

Thanks,

Tim

[Fitter2]

Hi Tim

see your PMs

F2

[tmmorris]

Many thanks and kudos to AFE Oxford who have sorted us out.

Tim

[chevvron]

tmmorris:

Does the person using this radio intend to transmit to the flypast aircraft? If so has a frequency been allocated by the CAA? and does the radio operator hold a Certificate of Competence to operate a radio staion?
EDIT: Plus of course you would also need a licence to operate a ground radio transmitting station.

[Jim59]

I have a handheld radio with a license (£25 this year - £75 next) and an approved call sign of '*** mobile' for ground use. No certificate of competence is needed because I don't use the suffix 'Radio', only 'Mobile'. No geographical restrictions on use within the UK. However I'm limited to using specific gliding, ballooning and parachuting frequencies as listed on the license.

Although I'm the licensee I can allow others to operate it.

[Whopity]

I'm the licensee I can allow others to operate it.But subject to the same conditions I'm limited to using specific gliding, ballooning and parachuting frequencies as listed on the license.Which is not a lot of use for a vintage aircraft flypast!

[BackPacker]

In a case like this, I always act on the basis that it's only illegal if you get caught.:cool:

[India Four Two]

Backpacker,

Finally some common sense, but then I see you don't live in the UK either!

[Whopity]

Do you assume that the vintage aircraft are so vintage they cannot change the frequency on their radio?Why is it that so many people assume that you can simply grab a frequency that is allocated for a specific purpose and use it for whatever you want. Whilst you may not be bothered about breaking the law, it also shows a remarkable lack of discipline.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The irresponsibility of some people on this thread is quite incredible.

[peterh337]

Do you mean the use of a handheld radio?

[patowalker]

Click, click, click :)

[gasax]

Does anyone here ever see daylight? If there is a reason GA is dyoing this is a perfect example.

The guy who 'needs' a radio does n't.

The others simply want to make everything difficult because? Well because!!!

[chevvron]

As far as I'm aware, gliding organisations in the UK are only allowed to operate on those frequencies allocated to the BGA ie 129.9, 129.975, 130.1, 130.125, 130.4 and all traffic on these frequencies is restricted to communications in connection with gliding operations, plus ballooning on 122.475 likewise. It is a similar situation with Microlight Common on 129.825.
Not using the callsign suffix 'radio' does not give you permission to use any frequency you like.
The use of 123.450 is specifically prohibited by the CAA as it is allocated for other uses.(mind you, 123.4 has recently ceased to be used by its major operator!)

[India Four Two]

The operator and radio licensing stuff described above for handhelds is silly, and in its entirely totally unnecessary.

Well said, Silvaire1. On a par with pilot-operated lighting being illegal in the UK.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It does seem arcane. I can see the need to protect working frequencies from rogue transmissions, but why doesn't CAA allocate 123.45 as a 'free for all' not allocated to any specific user?

[mad_jock]

CAA doesn't allocate frequencys each one also has to be paid for.

[Whopity]

but why doesn't CAA allocate 123.45 as a 'free for all' not allocated to any specific user?As already stated the CAA does not allocate frequencies. As you say it would be a free for all and that is exactly what they want to avoid. If you have a genuine reason to use a radio in the Aeronautical Band then there is a process for doing so that insures you do not cause undue interference to other services and similarly nobody will cause undue interference to you. As with all such processes they cost money. If you are the holder of a radio licence and you are prosecuted for a radio offence then they have the right to withdraw that licence as the holder is considered to be a person unsuitable to hold such a licence.

[Dan Dare]

Safetycom?

[BackPacker]

Safetycom?

Like Whopity said, there is a specific process for allocating frequencies, to prevent overlap, interference and whatnot. That process works but is expensive and time consuming. In this particular case we are probably talking about maybe five radio calls, all given within a time frame of about five minutes, from a handheld (low power) radio on the ground and from a low-flying aircraft. The chances of interfering with anything if you pick a random frequency are very, very small. And even then the system of R/T is set up to deal with the occasional interference. Has your conversation ever been stepped upon? Solved without drama, was it?

Now obviously the OP isn't going to pick 121.5 or the Tower frequency of the nearest commercial airport, but will apply some common sense as to what frequency to use. And as the OP is a pilot, he will have a pretty good idea on what are suitable frequencies in his area.

Not knowing the specific location of the OP, I would personally probably go for:
- 123.45,
- safetycom, or
- a glider/balloon/microlight "exempt" frequency

But you can do better than just picking one of those and hope you don't interfere with anything: A lot of operators have "company" frequencies, and controlled fields typically have a few "backup" frequencies they only rarely use. You can approach these organizations and ask them kindly if you can use one of those for the five minutes your little display is going to last.

As an example, we had a charity flying event (about 120 flights) a while ago. About twenty aircraft needed to taxi and park in a relatively confined space, so we needed our own ground control during the event, to prevent gridlock situations. We approached one of the operators based on the field, who does banner towing and other aerial work, and asked if we could use their company frequency for the day. No problem whatsoever.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

CAA doesn't allocate frequencys each one also has to be paid for.

So who allocated, and pays for the glider/balloon/microlight "exempt" frequencies? Why are there not a couple of GA "exempt" frequencies on the same basis to cover events like this, and casual air to air transmissions between aircraft flying together?

[Lone_Ranger]

The guy only asked to borrow a handheld. Like the sensible bloke above said, safetycom might be appropriate, thats if the O.P. doesnt allready have use of a freq more appropriate/assigned (I notice all of the wannabee CAA policemen simply assumed the poor guy was unknowledgeable and unprepared)

[Richard Westnot]

Lone Ranger - Hear hear :D

I hope the OP carries on regardless to what was a reasonable request.

[chevvron]

Like I said before, the CAA have specifically prohibited the use of 123.450 for this purpose, as it interferes with other legal (non UK) users.

[Lone_Ranger]

What you moaning about now?, Safetycom is 135.475

[Whopity]

Why are there not a couple of GA "exempt" frequenciesBecause nobody has ever made a valid case to request them!

Safetycom? The point of Safetycom is that it is for use by aircraft when there is no ground station!

There are always 446 MHz non-licence business radios.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Why are there not a couple of GA "exempt" frequencies
Because nobody has ever made a valid case to request them!

Prob because folk use 123.45! Why can't the authority take the role of leadership, be proactive, and allocate a couple of freqs?

Ah.... CAA... leadership ....proactive..

Disregard!

Better to shout at people for bending the arcane rules than to make sensible provison for an obvious user need! :rolleyes:

[Whopity]

Why can't the authority take the role of leadership,Because that is not their job. They are (were) an Aviation Safety Regulator, they have no remit whatsoever to provide any form of leadership or to be proactive in anything other than safety.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi Guys, you can imagine the scenario; Barnes Wallace near a Dam in North Yorkshire,drone of Merlin engines in the background…




BW… Ok chaps,bally farmer has moved all his sheep from our bally dam, commence your run.

Lanc 1… Fine business Barny, what with all those wally sheep messing up my bombing run, I was getting all hot under the collar, just going round incircles and all that s**t and stuff.

Lanc 2… Yes blood, it makes you kind of dizzy and things, don’t it just.

Heinz the Hun… Aaaah I hear you Tommies are practicing your dam bombing Mit das Wasser Bombes.

Lanc 1… Hello Heinz, its you again, thought you were dead or some such s**t. We’re going to drop these big bouncing balls onto you next week and you’re going to get all wet, you know what I mean, like somesuch, you better learn to swim.

Heinz the Hun… You think you are so cleaver you Tommies, my uncle Herman knows a man who can make a big bat to hit you dangly balls for Six’s or Seven’s, so what do you think of that then?

Lanc 2… I say Barnes, did you just hear Gerry then, says he’s going to hit our bouncing balls for six and all that, that’s just not cricket.

CAA Man… I say you chaps, stop all this banter, is that Heinz you are talking to, and you do not have a license for those radios.

Lanc 1… I say,you can’t talk to me like that, not when I am doing flying and bombing and things.

Heinz… Yahr, and Mein Fuhrer says we should not talk to the CAA… So there…

CAA Man… If you want to play with those radios, you will need to give me lots of money, and fill in a shed load of paperwork, and all that crap.

Lanc1… I’m not talking to you, I’ve got this big stick between my knees, and a big loud droning in my ears, and some big dangly balls hanging down, and all you’ve got is a pencil and a desk… so there, who’s the big daddy now.

Lanc 2… Yeah and we aint got no money or stuff neither, cos we spent it all on tea and scones last week, didn’t we Bro..?

BW… Yeah man,we’s all bally skint here, till bally payday.

Heinz… Yahr das is right, Same here, Struddle does not grow on trees you know. See you next week you Tommy Guys, I will be wearing mein inflatable rubber arm-bands.


SOUNDS…

SPLASH..… SPLash… Splash…. Spla… spl..sp.. clink... glug.. glug…….. KABOOOM.

[Pittsextra]

Say again..... I was getting run over by some bloke in a field trying to call a Tiger Moth down.....

[mad_jock]

Its ofcom you need to have a poke at not the caa. All the caa do is adminstrate the user licenses.

If you get nabbed for anything to do with radios its them you deal with not the caa.

Now ofcom is fair game in my book as apparently 5 million people will be getting filters through the post to deal with the latest mobile phone frequency cockup.

[dont overfil]

I'll bet the fine if you get caught (0.0000001% chance) is less than the cost of a temporary frequency allocation.

D.O.

[chevvron]

It's Barnes Wallis not Barnes Wallace.

[John R81]

That's his brother

[2hotwot]

Excellent phiggs - did you ever think about writing for TV - I've got this idea for a sketch with two BoB pilots.................

[POBJOY]

This radio business is all getting out of hand,and not what it is cracked up to be.
Only the other day i called up Croydon 'G-xxxx Banstead inbound' and had no reply.
Whats going on, even the searchlight was off.

Which reminded me of a 'poppy drop' some time ago when the OIC was explaining to the assembled veterans that the drop was 'off ' due to high winds and rain.He got to the 'n' in rain only to be 'cascaded' in damp poppies to be followed by cheers and clapping from the vets.

[chevvron]

All frequency allocations have to be approved by the International Telecommunications Union, (ITU) who decide if there is likely to be interference in neighbouring countries if using a frequency which is already allocated there. It is for this reason the use of 123.45 is banned in the UK, as it is 'legally' allocated to stations in France who not surprisingly complain when someone in England blocks 'their' frequency. Having said that, DAP (CAA) keep about 4 frequencies in reserve for 'special events' use, so application to them should allow use of one of these.
Fairoaks Info (123.425) occasionally gets intereference from people in France using 123.45 if their radios are a bit old.

[Big Pistons Forever]

In this particular case we are probably talking about maybe five radio calls, all given within a time frame of about five minutes, from a handheld (low power) radio on the ground and from a low-flying aircraft. The chances of interfering with anything if you pick a random frequency are very, very small. And even then the system of R/T is set up to deal with the occasional interference. Has your conversation ever been stepped upon? Solved without drama, was it?
.


Shame on you BP :ooh:, using common sense instead of the most prissy pedantic interpretation of the regulations that could possibly apply to the situation. :=

I have to believe that the veterans that were being honoured would appreciate that the flypast be done properly, something that would obviously benefit with the air-ground coordination that a radio link would provide. I sure hope the OP ignored all the "advice" on this thread and did the right thing.

I was No 4 in a 5 ship formation of warbirds that performed a flypast at my home city cenotaph. We used a avionics test frequency as the air to air tactical frequency and for air ground coordination. Amazingly nobody else was using this freq on a national holiday :rolleyes:

[tmmorris]

Thanks for all your concern. The event went very well. For various reasons I thought it best not to comment publicly on plans :}

What lovely weather!

Not many veterans there as it was a school event (more about the literally hundreds of names on the memorial to old boys). There were a few, mainly working for me these days. Getting them all out in their medals puts me in my place - suddenly you spot oak leaves on campaign medals...

Tim

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

DAP (CAA) keep about 4 frequencies in reserve for 'special events' use

So why not allocate one or two of those as 'general use' frequencies for GA, similar to the gliding and microlight ones?

[chevvron]

Because they are needed for the 'special events' which occur throughout the year all over the UK, especially when it involves a military unit which may only have a discrete UHF frequency allocation ie it's VHF channels are NATO common eg 122.1/123.3. In many cases eg Silverstone GP and Fairford and Farnborough happening simultaneously, even these 4 aren't enough and considerable work has to be carried out between DAP and the ITU to identify 'extra' frequencies.
If you really want a 'general use' frequency for GA in addition to Safetycom (by the way a similar frequency, 122.950, exists for helicopter ops), you will have to make a case for it. Why not get AOPA involved?
NB 123.4 isn't being used at the moment as far as I know!!
Course there are also frequencies allocated to various R & D establishments which are hardly ever used at weekends eg 126.4 and 130.5.

[Fitter2]

Course there are also frequencies allocated to various R & D establishments which are hardly ever used eg 126.4 and 130.5.

Don't tell them, Pike!

Hi Tim, glad it all went well, and thanks. F2.

[cockney steve]

ll this bull could probably have been avoided by simply going to Agros /Maplin or the like and buying a pair of PMR's (Citizen band)

AFAIK,there are 2 spectrums allocated and the high-band remained unused and unloved until about 10 years ago....I suppose that advancing technology made these a practical proposition.

low-power, but line-of-sight, so an aircraft a few miles away at a few thousand feet, shouldn't have any prob's.

cheap as chips and handy to carry when you attend big public events where it's easy to lose contact...(ok, there's mobile phones nowadays, but they cost!)

[tmmorris]

Did consider that as in fact we have a set of licensed walkie-talkies but in a Tiger Moth cockpit...?

Tim

[Keef]

I don't know if it's still the rule, but when I asked if I could operate an amateur radio handheld in a GA aircraft, I was told "NO WAY!" followed by details of how to get my kit signed off for use. The cost of the testing made the whole thing academic and I didn't proceed.

I'm sure the same "rule" would be applied to licence-free stuff of any sort. To be operated in an aircraft, I suspect you'll be required to have it type-approved for aviation use and then get a licence for the specific frequency.

Nothing to do with safety, you understand, and VFR outside controlled airspace at typical VFR levels, what issue is there? But rules is rules!

[Fitter2]

Keef

you may note that the loan of a hand-held was requested for a GROUND radio. There has never been any suggestion (in this thread) of its use as the aircraft radio.

Mind you, I know a number of LAA members who carry a hand-held ad a backstop.

F2

[ShyTorque]

All frequency allocations have to be approved by the International Telecommunications Union, (ITU) who decide if there is likely to be interference in neighbouring countries if using a frequency which is already allocated there.

Ah yes, it always works best if the authorities get involved. Now, about the loss of my Freeview TV picture to the 4G network..... where do I sign up for my ten grand compensation?