EASA licence and Aeros (again)

[foxmoth]

Just had a member of a group I help out enquire about this, he is having to convert to EASA due to company requirements, he quoted CAP804 page Section 4 Part P page 33. (Page 515), this basically says he needs the 5 hours aeros in his log book and a statement by an aeros instructor (me) that he fits the requirements, this leads you to AMC1 in FCL800 page 263 setting out what needs to be covered. Think this is all that is needed and he can then have it included in licence or does anyone know more?

[DB6]

If you are talking about having an EASA aerobatic rating issued, then that won't come into effect for another 3 years or so as the CAA have opted for a 3 year derogation for that and other non-JAR ratings, so approx. April 2015.
Of course plenty may change before then, like the ****e about having to do 40 hours post-PPL before starting your EASA aeros course. Tossers.

[foxmoth]

Whilst that is true, if you are getting an EASA licence issued the CAA have said that any ratings added at issue will have no charge, but to add them at a later date probably will incur an additional fee, the Aeros rating can be done on issue following the above procedure, I have just flown with my guy plus given him the grilling on the ground (under a suitable desk lamp pointing at his face of course:8) and sent him off with an appropriate letter, hopefully this will all go through smoothly, but I will await the result to confirm this.

[DB6]

I'll be interested to see what happens. As I read it just now the aerobatic rating doens't exist yet - as there has never been a JAR equivalent - so it can't be added to a licence, EASA or not. However do let us know what happens as if it works I'll do the same thing!

[dobbin1]

I'll be interested to see what happens. As I read it just now the aerobatic rating doens't exist yet - as there has never been a JAR equivalent - so it can't be added to a licence, EASA or not. However do let us know what happens as if it works I'll do the same thing!

It does exist - I have it on my EASA CPL. It may not be mandatory to have one yet, but the rating is there.

[BEagle]

DB6, perhaps you should read CAP 804 Section 4 Part P Page 32-33?

[DB6]

Or in my case, first download the September update of CAP804 which until now I was unaware of....
Must have slipped past in the blizzard of email notices from the CAA. Foxmoth, ignore everything I said apart from the bit about EASA being tossers.
And now for some light reading.....where's the bogroll?

[BillieBob]

where's the bogroll?You've just downloaded it!

[Flap 80]

Can anyone clarify this query? Can a G reg permit aircraft be flown on an EASA licence or is a UK National licence required...cannot find an answer in CAP804. thanks

[nick14]

I may be wrong by I was unde the impression that an EASA licence was valid for both EASA and non EASA aircraft except those for which there is no equivalent class/type or additional rating under part FCL.

[Flap 80]

Nick thanks for that..but more specifically can a G reg NON EASA aircraft on a Permit to fly (non C of A )be flown on an EASA licence or is a national licence required??

CAP804 doesent cover this.

[Whopity]

CAP804 doesn't cover this.It wouldn't, try ORS4-894 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_894.pdf) and Article 50A of the UK ANO

[Flap 80]

whopity..appreciate your input...despite having a copy of the ANO CAP393 it is a serious test of verbal reasoning ability to seek an answer to my original query within those documents. Nowhere in ORS4-894 or CAP 393 does it mention Permit to fly aircraft . Although the National licence continues to satisfy the Permit aircraft (and associated insurance liabilities)it is far from clear whether someone , for example , whose National licence expires and who elects to transfer to say a EASA PPL remains legally licenced and therefore Insured to fly the Permit aircraft.

[BillieBob]

In pursuance of its powers under article 78(2) of the Air Navigation Order 2009 (“the Order”) the Civil Aviation Authority (“the CAA”) issues this validation for any Part-FCL licence, rendering valid for the purposes of article 50(1) of the Order any such licence and all ratings and certificates included in the licence for any non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom for which the holder of the licence has an aircraft rating in the licence and to which such ratings or certificates relate. What is so difficult to understand? Any EASA licence is valid on any UK registered aircraft covered by the ratings included in it. Don't they teach English in school these days?

[BEagle]

Billie Bob, unfortunately not all NAAs see things the same way as the CAA and might not accept a visiting pilot flying a non-EASA aircraft on an EASA licence. This was hotly debated at EASA earlier in the week and I have asked the rulemakers (who do see things the same way as the CAA does!), to ensure that a statement is included somewhere which states unequivocally that an EASA licence may be used to fly non-EASA aircraft of the same Class as those included in the EASA licence.

[Flap 80]

BEagle ..thank you for your measured and informative response which is helpful.Billie bob...the value of your post is diminished by your puerile and unecessary last words .......starting a sentence with the words "dont" hardly reassures me as to your command of English.

[BillieBob]

unfortunately not all NAAs see things the same way as the CAA and might not accept a visiting pilot flying a non-EASA aircraft on an EASA licence.That is undoubtedly true but, since the question related specifically to a "G reg permit aircraft" and the CAA have issued a clear and unambiguous statement covering exactly that subject, I struggle to see the relevance.

As an aside, it is difficult to see by what authority EASA is able to determine that their licence may be used on aircraft that they do not regulate. Whether an EASA licence may be used on a non-EASA aircraft is a matter solely for the state in which the non-EASA aircraft is registered.

[DB6]

While chasing this up I see there have been two updates to CAP804 since I downloaded my version (May 12). I thought I had it covered in the CAA's email notification service, but it would seem not. Does anyone know what category they include CAP updates in?
I did have 'all' ticked but you know what happens then......:eek:

[BEagle]

That is undoubtedly true but, since the question related specifically to a "G reg permit aircraft" and the CAA have issued a clear and unambiguous statement covering exactly that subject, I struggle to see the relevance.

The IAA are not convinced that a UK pilot with a Part-FCL licence may legally fly a UK G-reg Annex II aircraft to Ireland.

That is the relevance; a shame you cannot see it....:bored:

[Flap 80]

Beagle...once again an informative post which only confirms my original point that the whole issue of Annex 2 aircraft lacks clarity and surely it is far better to clarify this issue at the flight planning stage rather than potentially carry out an illegal flight. This dialogue proves that BB avidly devours the ANO etc yet has obviously no Instructing or Examining experience ......how does the phrase go?There are no stupid questions..only stupid answers!

[ifitaintboeing]

The IAA are not convinced that a UK pilot with a Part-FCL licence may legally fly a UK G-reg Annex II aircraft to Ireland.

Most Part-FCL licences are issued to meet compliance with ICAO standards so are not a problem as this will already be included in the legal framework of most countries worldwide. It's only those licences which are sub-ICAO (LAPL) which need to be ratified in each individual state. This issue is being dealt with behind the scenes. The CAA were made aware of this at an early stage of the EASA consultation process.

can a G reg NON EASA aircraft on a Permit to fly (non C of A )be flown on an EASA licence or is a national licence required??

Presently, you can receive training and testing towards the issue, renewal and revalidation of an EASA licence or rating in a non-EASA aircraft. The UK ANO (Article 52, 53, 56) provides the legal basis for this, and for flying non-EASA aircraft with an EASA Part-FCL licence (Article 50A).

ifitaint..

[BEagle]

Most Part-FCL licences are issued to meet compliance with ICAO standards so are not a problem as this will already be included in the legal framework of most countries worldwide.

The problem is that certain Member States are not convinced that they may use their own secondary legislation, subordinate to EU law, to extend (as they see it) the privileges of Part-FCL licences....

Whereas the majority view is that, if there isn't a law to say that you may not do something, then you may do it; the Aircrew Regulation does not state that Part-FCL licences may not be used to fly Annex II aircraft, therefore they may be so used.

[taff_lightning]

I'm just about to finish a guys aerobatic training for the AOPA basic cert. I read earlier in this post what if he includes a letter from me with his initial licence application (CPL in this case). He can get the rating added. Could someone please advise what should be included in this letter as I've not done this before?

[DB6]

Download CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=5000) if you haven't already. Have a look at Section 4, part P, pages 32/33 (pages 514/515 of the pdf) and it lists all the ways you can get the rating included on conversion. You don't actually need the AOPA certificate, just 5 hours and a statement by an aeros FI. No guidance about the statement but paraphrasing what is in the CAP should do I imagine.

[foxmoth]

Taff, I will email you a copy of the letter I did for this.

[pipertommy]

Has anyone cut up the licence into parts to fit in the pockets of licence?
I was about to but then seen a notice that you can't ! So now I have a wedge in the front pocket and nothing in the rest. Daft !

[foxmoth]

Email sent Taff

[DB6]

Pipertommy, solution - photocopy it (good quality colour) then cut that up and fit in pockets. Screw up the original into a ball and keep in an old condom in the bottom of your flight bag - all in one piece mind you.
Wait for someone to give a toss, let them get really worked up, then toss the condom over :E.
Or maybe not........

[pipertommy]

pmsl ! Very good. What a pointless exercise this is. Far prefer my old style wallet, at least I could fit things into it.

[Density Altitude]

Just had EASA license issued with Aerobatic rating. All the permutations are in CAP 804, download and use your computer to search for the info. I got it on the strength of my BAeA competition results twelve years ago.

[Whopity]

I was about to but then seen a notice that you can't ! Can you find a legal reference for that? I can't!

[S-Works]

Has anyone cut up the licence into parts to fit in the pockets of licence?
I was about to but then seen a notice that you can't ! So now I have a wedge in the front pocket and nothing in the rest. Daft !


Another example of the UK CAA over doing things. The licence is actually designed to go into a small clear plastic pouch that will fit in your wallet. The rest of Europe that are issuing Part FCL licences are using this system. Mine has my medical and licence in it.

[BillieBob]

Can you find a legal reference for that?The only legal requirements for the format of the licence are at Appendix 1 to Part-ARA. According to this, provided that items I to XI are contained on a single sheet, the remainder may be on "separate or detachable parts of the main form". Due to the design of the UK's version of the licence form, however, this is not always possible to do. Of course, since the CAA always knows best, I suppose that we must conclude that those nasty foreigners don't know what they're talking about.

[gasta]

CAP 804 section 1 Part C page 2 pdf page 36 paragraph 1.5 says you can fly a non EASA aircraft with an EASA licence, including home bul.

[dobbin1]

AIUI, I cannot train people for the Aerobatics Rating, because I currently only work at an RTF, not an ATO. I can continue to train for the AOPA certificate though, which is one of the ways the rating can be included in an EASA licence upon conversion. There does not seem to be any problem with this, providing the certificate is awarded before they convert to an EASA licence.

My question is, if I train a newly minted EASA PPL for the AOPA certificate, will the CAA give him the rating on the strength of it, or (as I suspect) does this flexibility only apply to conversions from CAA or JAR PPLs?

[BEagle]

The CAP 804 conversion terms only refer to 'Aerobatic Privileges exercised on a UK National/JAR-FCL licence'. The implication being that, with a Part-FCL licence, you're stuck with Part-FCL Aerobatic Rating requirements - including the ludicrous nonsense of having to become an ATO and for the applicant to have flown 40 hrs PIC since PPL issue before applying for the Aerobatic Rating....:uhoh:

However, the Aerobatic Rating is only mandatory for aerobatics conducted on EASA aeroplanes after Apr 2015. If you were to teach the AOPA course using a Chipmunk or Bulldog, for example, then your newly-minted Part-FCL holder wouldn't need 40 hrs PIC, you wouldn't need to be an ATO and he/she could continue to fly aerobatics on suitable non-EASA aeroplanes using nothing more than a Part-FCL PPL(A). But if he/she then wanted to fly aerobatics on that aeronautical oxymoron, the Cessna 'Aerobat' :rolleyes:, he/she would need an Aerobatic Rating....

That's as I see it - but check with FCLweb before committing yourself.

[dobbin1]

Thanks Beagle - just as I thought. I was hoping the daft 40 hour thing would get changed, but no such luck.

[Whopity]

From today's Daily Express
Mr Cameron's call for a cap on the EU spending came as official auditors rejected the budget for the 18th year in succession.

The European Court of Auditors said the budget was riddled with fraud and error – and that the situation was only getting worse.