IFR IMC scary?

[Krallu]

Am I unnormal ?

I hold a fATPL, CPL, ME/IR, MCC.

I have flown very little in IMC. But I am now planning to do some more IFR training in a single engine. Before I did not have access to a good IFR plane nearby.

Of course I will take it in small steps and not start with IFR minimums.

But still I feel this kind of fear in IMC. Fear of what if hitting another aircraft in here.. or fear of accidently entering an active CB cloud and beeing lightning hit crashing to the ground.. or engine failure. Mostly I fear I cant see what I am entering. I could enter something really scary.

Is this a false fear due to lack of experience?? Should I start to fly and take things slow and then I will get more comfortable?

Thx!

[achimha]

Same as you, I got my JAR IR ticket with little actual IMC and all of it was done in aircraft I would never feel comfortable with on a real mission.

My own aircraft had the bare minimum IFR equipment and only after starting to fly IFR, I noticed how uncomfortable it made me feel. The extra workload and risk due to a non slaved directional gyro (which showed greater than expected wander), having only one attitude indicator and a rather simple autopilot (with a worn out gyro) turned out to be unacceptable to me. Many aviation money units later, I now have a panel that I feel comfortable with.

My biggest fears are now around flying into icing and CB/thunderstorms. Icing is a very difficult subject -- I still have a hard time making a judgement call. Adding a stormscope might be something for the future, although my hope is that satellite weather might be good enough and give me weather radar like capability at the same time.

[2high2fastagain]

Nope not at all. I have an IMC rating which I use and I'm still pretty apprehensive about going into cloud. I don't tend to worry about CBs smashing me into the ground or other aircraft, it's icing and spiral dives for me. I keep a close eye on the OAT gauge and my strut (which is a brilliant icing warning system).

I do try to remain VMC if I can safely. If you run into cloud, then there is likely to be more of it where you are going as opposed to where you are coming from, which could mean a tricky let down at an airfield you don't really want to go to.

I think a little bit of nervousness is a good thing, provided it doesn't paralyze or impair your judgement. A lot of blase, overconfident pilots end up in AAIB reports or in boxes covered with flowers.

Doing lots of it in training and flying with a safety pilot is a good thing and I'm sure you'll feel more comfortable

[mad_jock]

Perfectly normal and I would say extremely healthy as well.

I wouldn't be to worried about hitting another aircraft it does actually happen that oftn and its even less likely if you have a look at the statistics in IMC.

Icing is just best avoided to be honest. People get away for years flying in it. Then something happens then they don't go near it ever again unless in a suitably equiped aircraft.

[peterh337]

It's a big topic.

Statistically, the chance of hitting another aircraft in IMC are extremely low. For example the UK has zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2.

The chance of getting into a CB is obviously higher, but you need to take a view of the actual and forecast weather. If it is OVC005 and PROB30 TEMPO +TSRA then you can expect embedded CBs which is a problem if you cannot climb into VMC and stay there enroute so you can avoid buildups visually. In most decent conditions (in between fronts, or away from widespread instability) there won't be any CBs. Nevertheless if you are flying a light plane which does not have radar then you need to be careful re the wx in which you fly; see the trip writeups on my website for example on how I go about it; I use very simple methods nowadays. You won't get a 99% despatch rate unless you have the equipment and performance.

Same goes for icing. It's to do with avoiding IMC enroute if the temperatures are below 0C - which they usually are at Eurocontrol levels.

A stormscope is good in that if it is showing something concentrated you definitely don't want to go there, but you can get powerful turbulence with it showing nothing.

Satellite wx is too delayed to be good for tactical wx avoidance. It's also an expensive add-on (Avidyne MLX770 etc).

In this business, you pick how much you want to pay and that determines your mission capability for a given size of your and passengers' balls :)

[Whopity]

the UK has zero mid-airs in IMC since WW2.Not quite, an RAF Victor hit a Canberra over Holt on 19th August 1968 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/43688219@N00/4261188950/)

[Krallu]

Ok thx.

This proves I am not alone in my fears.

My first missions will be flights with lets say OVC or SCT 1000-1500 ft cloud base.

Me flying on top or in IMC on approx 3000-4000 ft somewhere. A distance for only 30 minutes flight to another airport and ILS down.

This shouldnt be too tricky to manage.

I fly in europe and I don't think we have the inflight wx information on screen that US does. We can of course ask for metars and taf during flight.

The mid-ari collision I think is very low because where I fly there is mandatory to get flight information from flight control even if you fly in G airspace if you fly IFR. Then you can plan to get separation.

Most fear I think is CBs. Have this picture in mind I am in IMC and then for a second I come out of IMC seeing the biggest CB black scary cloud in front of me close so I don't have time to react. I am entering it and everything goes black like in the night.

[mad_jock]

Other thing to have and make plans for is your alternates. Just because the book says you only need one have a couple of others planned for.

And if you doing practical training type flights. Go somewhere then go-around and actually go where you want to go.

[Pace]

Krallu

You can run through training and end up with a string of qualifications and NO experience.
Experience is not having someone there to make decisions for you but making your own, Experience is practical flying where you will venture intentionally or otherwise into the things that you do fear.
I ran into a large CB over Dublin 10 plus years ago in a Seneca twin routing uk to Shannon.
Aircraft autopilot got knocked out Aircraft dropped 1000 feet from its airways FL120, radios mass of crackle then got struck by lightning which hit the left wing a few feet from me.
Great for the teeth whiteneing and giving the hair that disco lift look but no major harm :E
Dublin put me onto the ILS and I swear we were setting off lightning bolts all the way down the ILS.
Dublin had been temporary closed with a string of around 14 jet aircraft waiting and all refuelling stopped.
That is one tiny example but that and many more add up to experience.
It is the unknown which scares you.
I am not saying fly yourself into CBs at all but at some time you will experience working around CBs and finding a way through. You will also learn how to visually read them and to instinctively know which way to go but you will not always get things 100% right.
That includes all manner of things you will experience in flight in the future which will all add up to experience from weather to failures of one kind and another!
May I also add flying in cloud where flying instruments becomes such second nature that you can be thinking about the forthcoming weekends golf!

Pace

[mad_jock]

And on the subject of lighting strikes.

They can get you out the side of a cloud as well which I considered quite unsporting when when got me.

Just think of real IFR as a series of underpants changes as your experence increases. Then when you can go a year without having a bum twitcher you are officially a grumpy auld cynical bastard like the rest of the auld timers presuming everyone and everything is out to kill you.

[peterh337]

Krallu - you need to sort out modern ways of getting weather data. It sounds like you have not had anything more than a basic PPL level of instruction, which is pretty much the norm for new JAA IR pilots.

Cloud base is very little to do with what is "in there". Do have a look at my original reply to you.

[Dg800]

Fear is a good thing when engaging in anything even remotely dangerous. It's what keeps you alert and questioning your every decision. Experience will dampen the fear and help you manage it, you should however never become "fearless" as being dead is often the following step, which you might get to in short order if you become really careless. :ok:
Ciao,

Dg800

[peterh337]

Fear is a good thing when engaging in anything even remotely dangerous

I disagree. Fear is what drives animals to flee. It is better to engage one's brain; that's what it is there for. It can be a useful tool at times :)

You can live in fear, or you can get clued-up on how to do it intelligently.

I prefer the 2nd one :)

Here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ir-sat/index.html) is a start.

[foxmoth]

Started my commercial flying with Aztec and Chieftain around the UK, yes we had deicing, but no wx radar, surprising how little in the UK you need it. In the winter, yes icing can be a problem, but read the forecasts and you might be surprised how often you can fly even without that, if you are heading for areas of Spain or other bits of the world that are more prone to CBs you might need to think harder about storms copes etc.

[Dg800]

I disagree. Fear is what drives animals to flee.

You're confusing fear with panic! Fear is the emotional awareness of a present danger, it can ultimately lead to flight but only after you have evaluated the situation and decided flight is the most appropriate reaction.
Once you no longer perceive what you're doing as inherently dangerous, i.e. when it becomes "just another day at the office", is when it really gets dangerous, and not only in aviation.

[peterh337]

Sure, but isn't it better to advise somebody how to make the assessment, than to tell him to be afraid?

This is one of my favourite criticisms of the private pilot training business. They use phrases like "better to be down and wishing you were up than to be up and wishing you were down" as an excuse for piss poor training. Today, with the internet, it is possible to make a reasonably good broad assessment of what sort of wx you can expect to encounter.

yes we had deicing, but no wx radar, surprising how little in the UK you need it. In the winter, yes icing can be a problem, but read the forecasts and you might be surprised how often you can fly even without thatI have never seen a forecast of "icing" which was any good.

Sure one can infer there might be icing, from a look at the MSLP chart showing some nasty front, but one doesn't need an "icing" forecast for that.

My own experience (TB20) is that some ice is picked up almost anytime one spends some time (say 30+ mins) in IMC below 0C. It's very random but if you do that enroute you will pick some up.

Also I suspect you are referring to low level flying. Much of the "heavier piston twin" community does that, and a lot of commercial piston flying (the Islanders etc) is done that way because of non-pressurisation. However, my understanding of the OP was that he is flying on an IR, outside the UK, so any IFR he will be doing, officially, will be at Eurocontrol airway levels and above. Most of that is below 0C, most of the year.

[englishal]

The thing about IFR is to be well prepared. Know what the weather is going to do, know what you are going to do if the weather is not as predicted and then stick to your limits. Understand the weather, icing, CB formation etc.....


(Ahem, I ran into a CB over Scotland once - Weather was Temp/Prob30 Cb's etc, so we took off out of Edinburgh is 300 OC, climbed on top at about 4k to see Cbs all over the place. As we approached Oban we were back into the IMC at FL60 or thereabouts - we popped out briefly to see the wall of a CB directly ahead - it was dark, rough and noisy with the rain on the aircraft and in the end a 60 degree bank turn to head for the light bit got us out of it. That is the only time that I thought holy f**k I really hope we survive this!)

[Pace]

I have done a lot of piston twin stuff in differing aircraft with differing levels of equipment, some with basic old GPS units, some with radar some without.
If you want to get a pretty high mission success profile you have to work with what you have and be able through experience to be able to read weather visually and instinctively be able to know where ice will be and how to get out of it!
Gizmos and pilot aids are great and I do not want to diminish their benefits but they should add to your skills not replace them!
It is only experience and not fear but respect for the dangers therein which will turn you into a confident IMC pilot !

Pace

[peterh337]

I don't think I have a single gizmo in the cockpit which really helps with immediate wx ahead.

I have a stormscope but have never found it useful for tactical wx avoidance, given an appropriate choice of the general wx before the flight.

[mad_jock]

Never used a storm scope what does it pick up?

The wx radar we have although primate crap is very usefull for dodging round the nasty bits.

[foxmoth]

I have never seen a forecast of "icing" which was any good.

You need to interpret what there is, as you say, below 0c in cloud you will probably pick up icing, the forecast gives you the 0c level and with a bit of experience you can get a guide of if you will be above, below or in cloud at different levels, surprising how much I flew like this with no probs. agree though that Sweden in the winter might be a bit more tricky.

[Pace]

The most accurate is satellite depictions which look down onto the weather rather than straight into it ! Often these are updated every 15 minutes and can give you an idea of routing on the ground !
There are on board units used in the USA which are brilliant, digitally analysed and displayed which can be zoomed in to give immediate close to weather or zoomed out to give weather patterns 250miles ahead !

Pace

[Dg800]

Sure, but isn't it better to advise somebody how to make the assessment, than to tell him to be afraid?

You also missed the point where the OP was just asking whether the fear he is feeling when flying IMC makes him "unnormal". He wasn't asking how to improve his performance while flying IMC, he wasn't asking how to better come to grips with his fears.
If you feel like giving him advice on the above issues, than be my (or rather his) guest. I feel I have fully answered his original question by telling him that he should not fear his fear (pun intended) because it's what might one day prevent him from making a possibly fatal mistake. If his fear should not become more manageable with accumulation of experience and recurrent training than he might really have a problem, which he certainly won't solve on an Internet forum.

Ciao,

Dg800

[Fuji Abound]

Correct.

Pilots are taught to fear IMC throughout most of the training - and rightly so.

The fear is so engrained its hardly surprising most are uncomfortable with IMC; all too often instrument training does little to address those fears.

For that reason I think most pilots fear IMC and it is therefore normal you would. Whereas I think if you asked most members of the public who had had no pilot training if they had any concerns about flying in cloud, they wouldn't.

In other words our fear is not innate, nor does it come from any life experience, but stems from our PPL days when we are told to fear IMC at all cost. Often those fears are further re-enforced during instrument training because one could form the impression every cloud has ice, turbulence, other aircraft or CB's lurking within.

[peterh337]

A stormscope shows discharges.

Individual ones don't usually mean anything; you can see them in little buildups.

The clustered ones tend to indicate CBs or similar.

As regards a fear of IMC, in the abstract sense, I don't know what the solution to that might be, and sure he won't find the answer here.

[Fuji Abound]

Is this a false fear due to lack of experience?? Should I start to fly and take things slow and then I will get more comfortable?

Yes - with qualification and yes.

As I suggested earlier I think the fear comes from pilot training.

Analytically, it is a false fear, because as you know 1,000s of flights take place in IMC every year with very few accidents. Logically this would suggest with the correct training the risk can be managed. The fear will decrease as you realise that IMC can be completely and predictably benign a great deal of the time and not the universal killer we are taught to believe.

Experience comes in lots of ways. I think it is fair to say the easy way is learning from others. As humans we are quite good at that; for that reason we think mentoring is good and so in the commercial world it has always been the case new pilots will gain plenty of experience in the right hand seating before having to make the judgement calls for themselves. The hard way is to teach your self. Unfortunately that means you will get a few surprises along the way - the only point of debate is how nasty the surprises are. Unfortunately I suspect many private pilots learn the hard way because the whole private environment is poorly geared to pilots flying with others with much more experience.

Personally I have always liked the easy way so its worth making the effort to find people with the experience to fly with. Its really nice to have someone along who says "ah, don't worry about that, seen it all before, shouldn't be a problem", or "I really, really don't think that is a good idea - you are braver than me!" Usually if you make the effort those people can be found. Often high hours commercial pilots are a good bet, either put out to pasture or simply because they still enjoy "messing" around with the lighter stuff.

If all else fails pay for it - it kind of makes sense, and it is definitely money well spent. Chose days on which you think to yourself I would rather not fly in this by myself and assuming the seasoned instructor is happy to go see how the conditions measure up against those you expected. You may well find after a little time you become more comfortable predicting the days you are happy with, those you are glad to avoid, and doubtless in the nature of IMC will find a few along the way that you are very glad you avoided, but had thought they would be better.

Unfortunately the trouble with IMC is it is never totally predictable - well not for me at any rate - maybe for the likes of Pace ;). It is a bit like VMC - I have found I have got pretty good at forewarning passengers how bumpy it might be - I reckon I can even get it about right 90% of the time - and then there is that wretched 10% when its as bumpy as hell and you cant quite work out why. ;)

[Tinstaafl]

May I suggest you start flying IFR at every opportunity? Initially limit your flights to fairly good, even VMC conditions. VMC can have clouds so use the ability to fly through them, instead of around them. Give yourself a fairly high cloudbase and no embedded TS at first.

As you gain experience you'll become more adept, and more comfortable, at flying in ever worsening conditions. If you have any intelligence then your increasing experience will start telling you when to go or not go when the weather gets quite bad. But without the experience you would do well to limit your weather exposure to increasing a bit at a time.

Flying in IMC with a standard 6 pack of instruments (and one them a DI, not HSI) isn't that big a deal - it's just a matter of gradual exposure on your own if you have been well trained for it. I used to fly an older C182 in IMC in Australia and it only had the instruments I mentioned + an ADF for navigation. Wouldn't recommend you launch in solid IMC without experience first, but a VMC day with fair weather CU or layered stratus with a high base? Sure! Go & enjoy.

[piperarcher]

I am one of those who wouldnt just launch my aircraft into anything. My decision as to whether to fly is generally worked out in my flight planning. What is the MSA. What is the 0c degree level. What kind of clouds are around? What does the F215 say? Are there any fronts ? If I get in trouble am I near anyone who can help me? Do I feel like it, am I confident etc... Its healthy to have a fear of anything, particularly something potentially dangerous if not planned, or analysed. This is something I wrote in another post.

Next time you do a route, make it compatible with both a VMC flight and an IMC flight. I.e. plan a route based on VOR's, NDB's, Waypoints you can put into a GPS etc.... That way if your flying along in VMC but want to be go for it and head up into the clouds, then your prepared and ready. If you decide to stay VMC, fine, you still have a good route and can practise some VOR tracking or something. This method also suits me, because my decision to fly in IMC might be based on whether I can get a traffic Service once in the air. Where I am base, Farnborough Radar is an excellent service, with massive coverage in the South East of England, but there are no guarantees to get a radar service.

From my experience, getting up there and flying in rain and IMC is the way to get comfortable. If it's one of those days and your not sure, take someone with more IMC experience, or an instructor up with you, as a safety pilot. I've done that a few times and it's given me some confidence.

[peterh337]

I am one of those who wouldnt just launch my aircraft into anythingAt the risk of stating the obvious, you can't.

You will kill yourself. Not right away but eventually.

The key thing is to always have an escape route.

If you know there is serious convective wx around, you can launch into a clearly visible gap and then, if when you are up there, you decide there is too much of it around, you can always come back down. If OTOH you can see that you will obviously be able to outclimb it / there is big stuff there but there isn't anything obstructing your intended route, you can just fly on. This (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/edny3/edds-dep1.jpg) is the kind of scenario I am thinking of. There was big stuff (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/edny3/edds-dep3.jpg) around but avoidable. Whether one would do a departure into solid IMC with CBs around, and a fairly uniformly grey sky underneath, is another matter :)

Another escape route, if flying in IMC below 0C, is to make sure you can descend into > 0C air if you pick up too much ice, without hitting terrain.

At the other end of the temperature range, if say you are flying in smooth stratus cloud but otherwise decent weather, in this (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/edny3/edds-egka-1.jpg) kind of temperature, then there is no need to worry because no way will you get icing - short of being inside a massive CB.

The worst icing I have ever had was ~30mm in 5 minutes, at ~4000ft over Kent, in smooth stratus (NS, obviously), base ~1500ft, tops ~4500ft. Perfect wx, sunshine on top. Temp -5C which is the worst for icing. Ice forecasts? Yeah right... I have a photo of the wing, which I am not posting :E The plane was going down, even at max power (250HP). Surface temp was +3C so it melted, but took a while.

There is a sizeable community of IR holders of non-deiced planes who "nearly always fly" and I can fully understand how they get away with it, but not all of them do get away with it...

[GeeWhizz]

Hmmm, I'll pose an answer to the OP.

Only had my IMCr a year or so and have used it mainly to fly in less than perfect vis. But not illegal VFR. I've also used it to descend through cloud where the base was a bit low for reasonable VFR flight so opted for the VFR on top scenario instead.

Nerves are good thing and will keep you sane and safe when considering flight in IMC. I think after a period without any IMC flight a descent through cloud would be enough with a 'visual' ILS... although flying it all IFR as far as the arrival airport was concerned. Just to provide the 'I can actually do this' feeling/confidence, and progress from there.

Icing is icing. Look at the forecasts, take periodic note of the temps and check frame icing during the routine checks. In a non-deiced aeroplane this wouldn't be reason not to fly in IMC, just make a clear and informed decision as to what you are doing. Remember that we (in the UK) are now approaching winter and the temps will soon fall, meaning that any flight in IMC (cloud) will be in icing conditions. Check the aeroplane is approved for this. Otherwise stay out of cloud. This doesn't necessarily mean do not fly IFR however.

Lastly, don't fly to minimums initally. Take it slow.

Fly safe :)

[foxmoth]

. Check the aeroplane is approved for this. Otherwise stay out of cloud

Ideally yes, but, 0c level at say 4,500' and an MSA 3,000 or so and cloud forecast base 2,000 tops 5,0000 I would have no prob filing at say FL80, with that forecast you could still in real life be climbing in cloud with an OAT below 0, but you should come out on top - if you do not and you are picking up ice the you can still descend to get rid off it - all a case of assessing the situation and using common sense.
:hmm:

[Pace]

Unfortunately the trouble with IMC is it is never totally predictable - well not for me at any rate - maybe for the likes of Pace .

Fuji (tut tut :=

When you learn to fly instruments it takes all your concentration to purely scan the instruments never mind deal with radio calls change frequencies, navigate, read charts etc!
My old instructor always told me that you can fly instruments when you can do all that and IMPORTANT when it becomes so second nature that flying straight and level in IMC between beacons you do start thinking about the weekend ahead and find the full concentration you used to need is no longer required.
I did not think flying VMC was totally predictable either?
I am not a SKY GOD (Oh well maybe I am ;) and there are many who feel almost as comfortable in cloud as out of it!

Pace

[abgd]

I just find it an utterly stupendous concept - to be bowling along at 100 knots or more, and not to be able to see where you're going. And start off in one place and pop out in another, just where you expected.

[Tim_CPL]

I think a healthy respect for IMC is very natural, I get butterflies every time I get in the clouds, however, in order, I am most worried about:-

Engine or instrument failure in IMC
Losing control in IMC
Losing situational awareness in IMC and having an CFIT
Picking up ice in IMC


I address my perceived risks by:-

Replace AI every 300 hours and also have a backup electric AI. Engine replaced at TBO in the group, religious oil analysis with long term trending and treating the engine gently.
No single pilot in IMC without a working 2-axis autopilot. Practice hand flying on every trip. Lots of safety pilot simulated IMC training.
iPad and 430W in the plane. Backup is 496 with WX. Know the MEA's, in this part of the world, MEA's of 12k+ ft are the norm.
Solid briefing and tracking WX for 3 days before every flight. Understand where the icing is and staying out of it. I means that 4 months out of the year are no-go in the Pacific Northwest.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Tim CPL,

Funny, my order of perceived risks (your 1-4) is exactly reversed to yours!

Although in my part of the world, it's rare to venture into IMC whilst being relatively close to terrain, so the number one concern to me is structural icing.

Most of the time in the UK, if you encounter an engine/instrument failure in IMC, you still have 2-3'000 feet of clear air below the cloudbase in which to sort things out, which I suspect is slightly lesser the case in many parts of the states?

[Krallu]

Just finished reading all new posts.

I cant answer you all individually but I have read every post believe me. First thanks for all help, ideas and suggestions. Clearly I can see that the method of deciding wheter or not to fly IMC differs a lot from person to person. Also risk assesment differes a lot. And sure I must form my own method in my own area depending on my equipment and experience to decide what weather IFR I can fly in.

I do think only listen to my fears will take me nowhere, then I will stand still here on ground. But ignore them completely is the wrong way to go too. I have good results from my training and I know what to do.

My mission is that I need to get more IFR IMC experience on my own. I have no doubt in that I will suceed to do the flight. No problem. But I need to mentally prove to myself that wow it works. I need to see it for myself.

I've seen it with instructor and with examiner in which I flew OVC008. But I need to see it for myself, when I am alone pilot. It means so much psychologically to pull of an ILS and see that wow I made it. Of course start with good weather and then increasing the difficulty.

I need to prove to myself that I am capable to do this. Techincally I know I can and my proficiency checks proves that too.

When I see good IFR weather my mind goes. What if? What if there is a CB there. What if that happens. But I think that will go away with experience. Like it did with VFR flights with time.

So I need to push my self a little to force myself to do some IMC flights. With time I will calm down.

My goal in the future is to do an IFR flight in weather where you are not allowed to go VFR. Then I feel very happy with myself. :ok:

[peterh337]

Clearly I can see that the method of deciding wheter or not to fly IMC differs a lot from person to person. Also risk assesment differes a lot

Unfortunately this is very much so and is because the IR training in Europe is so inadequate, so pilots who keep going (most become aircraft owners) develop their own ways of doing it.

[Pace]

Not many like to spend their hard earned money looking out of a grey window so most who fly hard IMC do so because they have a practical use for flying and want to be fairly sure of making their destination.
The old saying of flying within your and the aircraft limits spring to mind.
many light aircraft are not safely up to the job of flying anything more that mild IMC conditions so we are probably looking at more expensive machines with dual systems and good autopilots.
Deice /anti ice is a must have for all year flying.
If you do not have it you just have to be more careful and sure that you can drop down and get rid of ice while still being above the MSA.
In a single what happens in the unlikely event of an engine failure? is there enough clear air below the plane when you do come out of the clouds to make a safe forced landing? Is there fog below? Is it night time?
All these things are things to consider which limit the practical use of a light single for IMC flying.
Are you a "need to fly on Nov 21" pilot IE you dont know what weather Nov 21 will hold? Will the business meeting overshoot meaning a dark return?

So its not just the pilot but the aircraft which has to fly within his or its limits to be safe.
As one post put it to the IFR pilot there is nothing more satisfying than taking off at minima from airport A flying with no sight of the ground for hundreds of miles and then popping out at minima to see the runway lights in the gloom at Airport B.
With flying in cloud or even over solid you tend to loose that need to see the ground which is inground into the VFR pilot and it makes very little difference if you see it or not! Then you are a good IMC pilot! Fuji no i am not a Sky God in IMC :ok:

Pace

[Sillert,V.I.]

Some excellent advice here.

From personal experience, I'd suggest you approach this in bite-sized chunks and be wary of getting into a committing situation until you are sure you are able to cope. There is a relentless and insidious pressure on hand flying in choppy IMC for an extended period and it is all too easy to get trapped into a dangerous spiral of increasingly irrational decison making.

Knowing you have a quick exit into VMC will help your confidence considerably in the early days. A trip on a day when the clouds are above MSA but below CAS would allow you to climb & fly the enroute segment in the clouds, with the option of descending & continuing VFR at any time if you decided you'd had enough.

[peterh337]

I do most of my logged instrument time, instrument practice and ice accretion in stratus clouds, near to home and in conditions where an "escape route" is assured.

For a novice, that would be the best way to approach IMC practice.

When flying "for real", especially with passengers, I fly VMC on top, because it is much better in every respect. This is made possible largely by having an IR. To see if a given flight can probably be done as VMC on top I use the satellite IR images as described earlier. One logs very little instrument time doing that, however...

[Krallu]

Thanks guys for all posts, ideas and suggestions! :)

[Johnm]

I fly perfectly happily in solid IMC and have done for most of my flying career. There is nothing scary about it per se, but it does need planning and preparation in advance and throughout the flight. There's an old joke about flying in IMC " If you aren't busy you've missed something" and it's very true.

Issues that need some level of advance planning are things like icing risks cloud thickness and layering (learn about Skew-t diagrams like this one skew-t (http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-bin/expertcharts?LANG=en&MENU=0000000000&CONT=euro&MODELL=modtemps&MODELLTYP=4&VAR=prec&HH=3&BASE=-&WMO=&ZOOM=0)
)

Be very wary of embedded CB and conditions when fog might form

Instrument flying is all about procedure and plan, prepare them, follow them and adapt them as you go minute by minute.

[Fuji Abound]

I sail a bit.

Many sailors get worried about rough conditions. I think many of us worry about the going get rough in IMC - I know I do. Sometimes it can be really unpleasant - aside form concerns about icing or CBs.

Since this is a serious discussions and not about degrees of putting yourself in harms way one thing that has always given me great comfort is when it happens in fact most yachts and most aircraft will give up a long long time after the captain although in different ways it is helpful if the captain doesn't give up either!

In sailing terms i knew some guys who bailed out in very bad conditions way up in the northern latitudes. Sadly 3 out of 4 of them died. The fourth immediately made a great deal of fuss about how the yacht had let them down and how skilled the crew were. Three weeks later the yacht was found adrift - there was almost no damage at all. Little more was said.

Light aircraft are a bit like that; they will look after you amazingly well as long as you don't give up so if like me you worry about breaking the thing your fears are almost certainly misplaced. When things get rough at least that is reassuring.

Just a different slant in case that was part of your grounds for concern.

[Pace]

The worst turbulence I ever experienced was not in cloud but in clear air over the Alps in a private jet!
We had departed Nice on a northerly SID and had severe turbulence between FL200 and FL300! 45 degree wing drops, cupboards flying open , climb rate 1500 to 2000 fpm above normal.
The worst you will get in cloud is running into a CB in which case reduce speed and ride it!
But turbulence in cloud should not be any greater an issue than turbulence out of it !

Pace

[peterh337]

But turbulence in cloud should not be any greater an issue than turbulence out of it !

Want a bet?

[Pace]

Peter

I have run into CBs in cloud and the inherent turbulence shear etc! while IMC I have not to date had a major problem controlling the situation which usually means disconnecting the autopilot and hand flying anyway.

There is a slight advantage being VMC but not as great as one would imagine.

If anyone is suggesting that an IMC pilot will loose control of an aircraft in IMC if he hits turbulence then I would question the suitability of that pilot being there in the first place as well as his training which will have been inadequate? Sorry!!!

That is as bad as saying that if you loose an engine in IMC on a twin you will loose control ? You should be almost as comfortable on instruments as you are with visual references.
If your not you are asking for trouble if anything goes wrong with either the aircraft or weather!
So to the new IMC pilot build up slowly and do not take on more than you can handle,

Pace

[sevenstrokeroll]

I used to fly bank checks in crappy planes, single engine etc. all wx.

may I suggest.

one...fly an IFR flight with nice weather and a nice local area that you are familiar with.

next, fly the same flight IMC (also IFR for you english guys) with lots of weather briefing and within the capabilities of you r plane.

then do it again.

ok for baby steps...but remember anything CAN happen on a nice day or a bad day. you are responsible...you have to know what to do if you are IMC and your engine quits.

you have to have ideas and the imagination, yes imagination to handle things...flying is done with the imagination so try thinking through a flight.

eventually you will get used to it...even imc at night.

good luck...

[peterh337]

Pace - what I was getting at is that no way IMC can be "better" than VMC.

In VMC, the only turbulence (AFAIK) is going to be one related to horizontal airflow, which will be the jetstream shearing against the air around it, or lower level airflow (wind) flowing over terrain.

In IMC, you can get all of the above, plus vertical airflows (caused by water phase change) which, if you enter them at a high enough speed, can exceed the max G of the aircraft.

I would agree that one "should never get killed" through any penetration of anything (flying I mean ;) ) provided one is below the Va figure applicable to the current aircraft loading and one avoids excessive or repetitive control inputs.

But pure survival is different from doing a flight on which the passengers will ever fly with you again, and if the passenger is say your GF or wife, such an event is going to have a profound effect on your relationship or your flying (or both) :)

[Pace]

Peter

Your answer is to have more than one girlfriend then if you loose one because she will not fly with you then you have a fall back? Never put all your eggs in one basket a good flying principal :=
I well remember a trip I did just after I had got my twin rating with a superb instructor.
I went with him to gain experience to drop some people up in Inverness in the middle of winter in a Baron 55.
I flew left seat back at night with him in the right. There was a Sigmet with strong winds and severe turbulence below 8000 feet and CBs.
We took off and soon entered a snow storm.
The flakes were so dense and intense they were blinding and the only way you could fly was not to look out but fly the instruments.
This was in the dead of night over Scotland in severe turbulence.
I can distinctly remember thinking that I was using all I had to hold it together and what would happen if the engine suddenly failed to add to the mix!
We burst out of that frontal weather down by Glasgow and were met by smooth air and a million city lights below.
That was 25 years ago and was an excellent lesson for me. Since then I have flown all manner of weather even dust which turned into a sand storm on landing in Saudi Arabia and really do not now see a lot of difference between flying with outside reference or instruments.
An emergency in cloud is obviously more serious than on a CAVOK day because it is more challenging but that does not mean its not do able.

Pace

[peterh337]

OK I agree with all that, except the multiple GF part ;) One (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/samothraki/brac1.jpg) (good one) is plenty :)

really do not now see a lot of difference between flying with outside reference or instruments.

is also very true. One should be able to smoothly flip between flying visually and flying on instruments.

That goes contrary to a lot of traditional teaching, and is IMHO one of the benefits of having a lot of sim time before doing the PPL (a lot of instructors will disagree).

[Pace]

is also very true. One should be able to smoothly flip between flying visually and flying on instruments.

Peter

That is a little different as it involves changing your mind set from close up scanning mode to to distance mode.
Hence coming out of an intense instrument scan to becoming visual can confuse your mind while that adjustment takes place and your vision takes in a whole new and different set of information.

Pace

[AdamFrisch]

I don't have my instrument ticket quite yet, so don't have the benefit of your IMC flying experience. But I'm not sure I agree that you can not get into structural problems in a severe turbulence or CB's even when you're flying within certified parameters. It seems to me that the majority of structural failures happen in CB or turbulence. Now, they could be a result of overspeeding, overbanking etc, but not all of them. I think there's a grey zone here, and because the victims of structural failure never live to tell about it, and we don't carry data recorders, it's not something that can be processed in statistics.

Just this morning I got AOPA safety foundations new accident case study about a Cherokee Six that breaks up with 5 people on board in a storm in Texas last summer. It's a marginal decision to continue at night with so much bad weather, but honestly, with such a well equipped airplane you'd be forgiven if you'd made the same choice as he did. Have a look:

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/acs_timelapse/?recid=6930313&hkey=2579291578&priority=F912SP3&WT.mc_id=F912SP3

Did he overspeed? Did he overbank? Probably, but we don't know that for sure. There is a remote possibility that the CB was severe enough as to cause structural failure even if he was flying within design parameters. So, the lesson one must take from this and countless other flights is that flying at night, in, or close to CB's, is a bad idea. It's better to take the long way around.

[peterh337]

He was either flying well past Va, or lost control of it and ended up well past Va.

The idea of Va is that it is a low enough speed that the wing will stall before the max G is exceeded.

This is nowadays known to be not quite foolproof, in that excessive and especially repetitive and large control inputs can break something even if flying below Va.

But in general if you keep the plane the right way up, more or less, maintain pitch attitude, and keep the speed down below Va, it should not break in any weather.

[sevenstrokeroll]

to original poster:

now don't go looking to fly into a thunderstorm, or clouds with great vertical development (CB, towering Q et) unless you really know what you are doing.

it also seems to me that perhaps you are hesitant to fly IMC because you have not had enough instruction in actual IMC...perhaps your instructor hasn't had much actual experience in the clouds.

certainly without radar and other modern conveniences you can get hurt...

I've read some stuff about Va here on the forum...alot of things can cause a plane to crash. Losing the attitude gyro, ask air franc epilots about pitot tubes icing up...

you can even bump your head on the ceiling of the plane and knock yourself out.

read all you can about weather flying...indeed there is a fine book called: ''weather flying'' by buck.

have an ''out''. (with ifr clearance) go into clouds, but know that you can turn to BLANK heading and be out soon.

but by the same token...a pilot has to be in command of a situation.

when I was actively teaching, I insisted my students know where they were while IFR/IMC...even without fancy moving maps, gps etc. And that they could ''make up'' an instrument approach to any airport on the chart.

my advice is to find a more experienced instructor/pilot and pay him to teach you a bit more than you already know.

and to anyone who thinks a cherokee six is a well equipped plane ...well you have along way to go. I flew bank checks in a cherokee six, the original lance, and the arrow. It was WORK and I had to THINK to stay ahead of every eventuality.

Our bank check company lost a number of pilots in bad wx.

so...think about it.

[flybymike]

That Pic of Peter's GF is reminiscent of the Lady Diana see through dress one....;)

[Pace]

That Pic of Peter's GF is reminiscent of the Lady Diana see through dress one....

Always thought the Car crash was suspicious? So now we know ;)
One good one far better Peter :E

Pace

[peterh337]

According to folklore, the car crash was not suspicious at all ;)