London Information any use?

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi Guys, when I fly local to Manchester / Liverpool it is always nice to contact Liverpool Approach for a 'Basic Service'. The benefits are that I can hear local traffic.. some on the North Wales coast, some over Seaforth and maybe some over Oulton Park... It gives me some clue as to where everyone is and if they are likely to bump into me. Also Liverpool's ATC will give you the unofficial radar service and let you know if someone is on a collision course.

However if I fly into the Midlands / Wales area, the only service to be offered is 'London Information'. On a good day this is crowded with planes coasting in or coasting out at Lydd or Dover, these are of no real concern to me in avoiding any hazardous conflict. So that begs the question... What use is 'London Information' to anyone north of the M25?

Even though they give you a Squalk (1177.) they have no Radar screen, and my guess is that they just have a large Chart with Post-It notes on, to record any Notams or Events. I was once told by them that one valley had a search and rescue mission ongoing... by the time I deciphered their Lattitude and Longitude, I was several tens of miles away.

From listening to Airband over the years, I got to know which frequencies were used in which areas, say 133.6 from Wirral to Berry-Head, but if you ever contact them they are not interested unless you have turbofans under each wing. They suggest you call London Information...

Pete

[John R81]

Err...

It is an information service, not a LARS service. It is very useful if you want any information. For example, I asked them for the surface wind estimation for a private site I was heading into. They gave me - after a very short delay - the wind at two close by GA fields.

[Pace]

London information are just that a great information service for anything you need to know.
I have called them while 200 miles away over France to get some info I need!
They are also good for getting clearances into CAS etc.
Where you are in areas where you cannot get a RAS they are the next best thing as its better to be in contact with someone rather than no one.
They will give you info on known traffic but not the sort of traffic separation available from a radar service.
But they know everything probably even the best restaurants at your destination (only joking) :E
Not very long ago I had a very odd radio problem loosing contact with approach and tower into a busy airport on an instrument approach.
Nothing worked so while dialing in 7600 tried London Info who strangely came in loud and clear! explained the situation and used them as an in between.
Love them!

Pace

[soaringhigh650]

It is an information service, not a LARS service.

I think this is fundamentally where the UK gets it wrong. In my experience many countries in the developed world provides FIS from the approach or en-route units using radar derived data. Consequently you can be proactively cleared through airspace easier.

[John R81]

I am not following.

We do that also. There are many opportunities to use LARS service or to speak with approach ATC. London Information is an information service

[bookworm]

What use is 'London Information' to anyone north of the M25?

How else do you think Ryanair would get its weather information? ;)

[Fuji Abound]

Well worth it for the life stories, the cricket score and working out who knows and who doesn't know how to use their GPSs when asked for estimates.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

who doesn't know how to use their GPSs when asked for estimates
Easier just to read it off the plog than faff around with GPSs, surely?

[DavidWoodward]

I find it useful and reassuring especially when position reports are given. A few months ago I was heading back to Barton from Shobdon and London Information gave me the weather in Manchester en-route. Also, the lady on that day had a lovely voice which is always a good reason to give them a call ;-)

[mcgoo]

You also get to listen to French commercial radio stations on high pressure days!

[Mariner9]

Easier just to read it off the plog than faff around with GPSs, surely?


Not for me. 1 button press and I have an eta displayed for all route waypoints.
Much less faff than mentally adding leg estimates to last fix

[Gertrude the Wombat]

1 button press and I have an eta displayed for all route waypoints
Yeah, I got one of those too, but it's zero button presses to glance down at the sheet of paper on my lap, which is one fewer.

This does rather depend on whether one has bothered to fill in the ETA times on the plog, of course, so actually I am more likely to use the GPS :)

The most recent occasion on which I had to give an ETA was an IMCr revalidation test, a couple of days ago, which involved an approach I'd not prepared and never done before to an airfield I'd never visited before where the DME and the initial approach fix were not co-located and the GPS was switched off. So I guessed (based on the DME groundspeed readout except I wasn't really going quite in that direction or quite the same distance). And was then told to remain six minutes' flying time away from the IAF ... so I guessed again ... but got clearance to the beacon before it became a serious worry.

[RTN11]

In my experience many countries in the developed world provides FIS from the approach or en-route units using radar derived data. Consequently you can be proactively cleared through airspace easier.

You get that in the UK too, London (or scottish) info is for when you're not in CAS.

Where you are in areas where you cannot get a RAS they are the next best thing as its better to be in contact with someone rather than no one.

That's pretty old school, surely you mean traffic or deconfliction service rather than radar advisory?

Plus, you can ask London info almost anything and they will come up every time. What's the weather in Southampton? Inverness? is whatever danger area active?

And on the day of the last world cup final, the most asked question, "What's the score". He even had the courtesy to add, those who do not wish to know should turn the volume momentarily down now...:}

When did you ever get such a brilliant service from a radar controller?

[madlandrover]

From listening to Airband over the years, I got to know which frequencies were used in which areas, say 133.6 from Wirral to Berry-Head, but if you ever contact them they are not interested unless you have turbofans under each wing. They suggest you call London Information...

True, using a London Control airways frequency without warning might surprise them a little... Better off using LARS frequencies, eg in the Midlands Shawbury, or a sensible local station (East Midlands if necessary, Coventry, Brize, Oxford, etc). In terms of traffic info: rather than an unofficial radar service why not just ask for a Traffic Service - much more useful!

[24Carrot]

Sometimes more than an information service!

As a PPL student on a solo nav I had reason to be grateful for their pro-active approach: they called me to warn me that the airfield I was heading to would most likely be closed when I got there.:uhoh:

They, (and a very busy FI behind the scenes), sorted me out.

I am still grateful.:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Plog - what plog.

Twin glass screens. twin Garmins, one button and full FPL will all estimates, my only problem is remembering not to give estimates to the exact minute so as not to look a complete pr**. :)

Do you really keep a hand written plog. :) It is very quaint!

Only kidding.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Plog - what plog.

Twin glass screens. twin Garmins, one button and full FPL will all estimates, my only problem is remembering not to give estimates to the exact minute so as not to look a complete pr**. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Do you really keep a hand written plog. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif It is very quaint!

Same kit (well, kit with same features, I don't know what you've got). And I do have a hand written piece of paper as well. (On which I rarely bother to fill in the actual times, to be honest, so given blank screens I would be slightly challenged if asked for an instant ETA, in real life.)

I explained this to a retired examiner thus: "I work in computers, I know too much about them to believe that all the screens can't go blank at once".

He said "I'm not going to try to claim that they can't; my son flies A380s and he knows perfectly well that all the screens do sometimes go blank at once".

[fisbangwollop]

Phiggsbroadband..Even though they give you a Squalk (1155.) they have no Radar screen, and my guess is that they just have a large Chart with Post-It notes on, to record any Notams or Events.

I think you will find that both London and Scottish information are slightly more technical than that.

Although not classed as a radar both London/Scottish have a FID " Flight Information Display" This is an anti airspace infringement tool and is there to assist the FISO in preventing a possible airspace/danger area infringement.

I think you may now realise reading the previous post's that my colleagues at London Information are very well appreciated by all that take the time to call....like wise up here in Scotland I am pretty sure that the service provided by myself and colleagues at "Scottish Info" is thought to be of some use and appreciated too. :cool::cool::cool:

[jollyrog]

London Information are top notch, they've been very helpful to me several times, including once when my engine started to play up eight miles out over the Irish Sea, which turned out to be a non event, but you don't know that at the moment it happens!

The squawk you get is 1177 and you can get all kinds of useful information from them, including the winner of the men's singles at Wimbledon, which I heard passed to the Red Arrows when on the way home from Le Touquet last Summer.

I've never been far enough North to use Scottish Information. I have this picture in my head of Gregor Fisher and the Outer Hebridies Broadcasting Corporation. I'm sure it's not really like that.

[Fuji Abound]

Gertrude - twin IFR GPSs and twin glass screens is a reasonable amount of redundancy. There is a moving map GPS in the flight bag as well. In all seriousness a dual screen, dual GPS failure is enough of an emergency to land asap if for no other reason than almost certainly there is an even more serious underlying problem. The PLOGs gone and its a diversion. With enough redundancies I am not sure there is any merit in a handwritten plog and I am also not sure how it will help.

Sorry for the topic drift and as for London Info - its a brilliant service. Well done to those who man the service and thank you.

[Pace]

That's pretty old school, surely you mean traffic or deconfliction service rather than radar advisory?

RTN11

No not old school although I preffered the old school ;)

Just my abbreviations meant to say a Radar Service but put RA S as abbreviation which looks like Radar Advisory Service.
I was not being specific to what Radar Service you might want ;)

Pace

[fisbangwollop]

Jollyrog....I've never been far enough North to use Scottish Information. I have this picture in my head of Gregor Fisher and the Outer Hebridies Broadcasting Corporation.

:p:p Not quite .......come up and visit us one day and you will see that is very very far off the mark.......now must head back to my bowl of porridge. :cool:

[Pace]

FisBangWollop

Do you by any chance hold restaurant information and booking service at destination?
That could be a good earner for your department as well as arranging taxis, Hotels la di da :rolleyes:

Pace;)

[mad_jock]

you will see that is very very far off the mark

Are you sure?

Wandering around glasgow looking for a cheap pint with a newspaper under your arm.

Head bandages.

And pity wee Burnie got done for kiddie fiddling or we could make comments about some of your vertically challanged collegues, apparently we are not allowed to use the term PORG's any more in scotland.

And you do have a map with pins in it :p
Bet it has the best operational equipment failure risk assement in the center.

[Crash one]

Don't believe all that **** Fisbang, some of us luv ya. :ok:

[A and C]

London info is a very good service, providing up to date weather info, monitoring of flights that is very useful if you are crossing the sea and help with joining airways.

It is not a service to keep those of you who spend far too much time looking at the glass from hitting other aircraft, you have to look out of the window for that !

[phiggsbroadband]

Well perhaps some good news, when Fisbang says...

'Although not classed as a radar both London/Scottish have a FID " Flight Information Display" This is an anti airspace infringement tool and is there to assist the FISO in preventing a possible airspace/danger area infringement.'

So if anyone was likely to infringe, everyone from London to Swanwick would know about it... Does this really make it a Radar Service... perhaps not.
So there are still effectively large areas of the country, e.g. Most of Wales and from the West of Birmingham that have no Radar Service, even though many radar sets have the range to cover these areas.

On the weekend, most military units do not man their Radars, so Shawbury AIAA zone also reverts to the London Information Service. It is a pity NATS could not employ one opperator to keep these radar units active over the weekends.

I must admit to being trained in telecoms in the age of the PPI (Plan Position Indicator.) which was little more than a green line with a few blips on it, on a long persistance phosphour screen. Nowadays I suspect the radar returns are much more elaborate, maybe even using the internet for data interchange.

Pete

[toptobottom]

Even though they give you a Squalk (1155.) they have no Radar screen

1155? I've always been asked to squawk 1177 :confused:

In any event, don't assume London doesn't have access to radar information - if you go to Swanwick, chummy on the London desk only has to look sideways to see a screen. I was once routing N Wales to South Devon when I was asked by London if 'that was me' as I coasted out east of Swansea.

It's a friendly and helpful service and I'd always rather someone was waiting at the end of the line in the event of an emergency... :}

[chevvron]

On my one visit to London FIR at Swanwick, their radar display was filtered to ONLY show 1177 codes (not 1155s) and they're not allowed to give instructions or advice to aircraft based on what they see on it, but it was quite a way away from the 'control' position in use, hence when operating Farnborough LARS East or North, we often used to phone FIR if we saw one of theirs about to infringe.
The FIR FISO has access to a very handy computer; all they need to do is put in location indicator of an airfield or danger area number and they instantly get info on it.

[peterh337]

The reason London Info is what it is is because of funding.

Employing FISOs is cheaper than employing radar qualified ATCOs.

The UK has an ICAO obligation to provide an FIS and it does that. There is no obligation to provide a radar service.

An ICAO compliant FIS can be done by a man sitting in a hut with a radio :)

If many more people "used" London Info then the service would instantly collapse, and would be unworkable long before that because the same frequency covers such a wide area.

I never use London Info when flying normally. The only time I call it up is to get a handover to London Control following a departure from somewhere where the tower was unmanned, or equivalent.

A listening watch on London Info is a good idea IF there is no radar service available from somebody else. For example it would be daft to be on London Info when you could be talking to Farnborough and this is true even if F is busy and can give you a Basic Service only i.e. no official traffic info.

On my one visit to London FIR at Swanwick, their radar display was filtered to ONLY show 1177 codes

That's funny because on my one visit to Swanwick, c. 2 years ago, the man told me their radar display shows all squawks :)

BTW I have a feeling that visits to Swanwick are all but worthless now because you get only as far as a conference room, whereas at West Drayton they actually showed people around the place.

[toptobottom]

I frequently fly across the length of Wales (where London is the only unit I can maintain 2-way RT with) and the channel; I use it only in case I have an emergency.

I was invited by NATS to visit Swanwick several years ago after a 'misunderstanding' whilst flying through Luton's zone (quickly sorted after reviewing the recorded conversation..). As a goodwill gesture, I was invited down to see how the unit operates and was given a personal tour of all the desks by off-duty ATCs and their supervisors, who were pleased to explain how all aircraft are shepherded into the various airports under Swanwick's control. I was there for 3 hours and was fascinated.

A new viewing gallery (http://www.nats.co.uk/news/mp-opens-swanwick-viewing-gallery/)was opened at Swanwick last Friday, which means you're less likley to get up close and personal, but I'd still encourage anyone who hasn't already visited their local ATC to try and find time to do so. Trips are being arranged for this Autumn - clicky (http://airspacesafety.com/news/visit-atc-day-is-back). Participating units include: Swanwick, Prestwick, Manchester, Farnborough, Bristol, Birmingham, Belfast and Norwich.

Radar can be configured to selectively display different air traffic, inluding by altitude and/or squawk

[pudoc]

London Info are great. You can be in touch with somebody helpful no matter where you are over the whole country (more or less) as long as you aren't low down in some valleys. There are areas where you can't get a LARS and it's always good to be in contact with someone so if you need to make a mayday, they already know all your details as opposed to calling 121.5.

[toptobottom]

Further to my post #31 (http://www.pprune.org/7428722-post31.html)above, Exeter and Coventry are also now participating. Contact details here (http://airspacesafety.com/news/visit-atc-day-is-back).