IFR enroute frequencies

[Immortal]

I was wondering how the IFR pilots on this forum get their IFR enroute frequencies. I flown a couple of times IFR now (I don't have an IR myself) and saw dat most pilots go to rocketroute or eurofpl and query the CFMU computers to find a route to the destination. Before departure they enter this route into the 430/530 Garmin and of they go.

As for the departure and arrival there are (Jepp) charts available with the approach and tower frequencies. But I noticed that (the pilots I've flow with) do not have any preflight information for the frequencies enroute. Were these just lazy pilots or is this how it works? You just wait for the frequency handover and you just have to listen very carefully for the next frequency? I also noticed that some pilots don't have the IFR enroute maps in the cockpit. They follow the purple/pink line on the GPS (or directs from ATC) to the destination.

If this is not the way it should be, were can I find the enroute frequencies? On the IFR enroute map and/or somewhere else?

[Dan the weegie]

Most are in the AIP for the country in question but I guarantee you that most places pilots get frequencies is from is the station they're being handed off from. Once you're under control, you get handed over from place to place - it's much simpler than VFR freecall :)

[Dan the weegie]

We carry no en-route charts. All the planning gets done for us by software and an underpaid youth in Ops. We just carry the approach plates for diversion and en route airfields.

[Contacttower]

Most of the time I just listen to the frequencies that ATC tell me to call enroute...I know most of the ones in Scotland but around London there are so many different ones that it seems to vary all the time. As long as you know your initial one, whether it be London Info or a local radar unit to get you into the system it doesn't really matter. Looking the Jepp chart there are about seven or something frequencies listed for London Control with little clue as to which does what so why try to guess...

For arrival obviously you need ATIS and tower (so that you don't have to fiddle when you are flying the ILS, which is usually when the tower frequency is given to you) but they will be on your approach charts.

[peterh337]

If you mean low level IFR (hacking around the UK in Class G; usually there is no flight plan, or a VFR one) then you call up the usual radar units for a radar service, etc e.g. Farnborough.

If you mean high altitude IFR (IFR flight plan filed via Eurocontrol, at high altitude e.g. FL100+ so that London Control accepts it) then you collect a provisional departure clearance (squawk, the initial London Control frequency, etc) from the tower or, if there is nobody in the tower, with a call to London Information.

That's in the UK.

If you go to the start of this (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/kithira/index.html) trip report you can see it there

If doing this type of "unmanned airfield" departure, one normally contacts London Information on 124.60 when airborne but on this occassion there was someone in the tower and they phoned up London Control in the usual way for the provisional IFR clearance. The phone number for London Control is not published, which is a pity because London Information can take up to 30 minutes to get the provisional clearance and one can be out of UK airspace by then, especially if departing to the south, which at worst could force a turn-back if the lack of a climb clearance into CAS makes it impossible to avoid hazardous weather down the route. One trick to play in such a situation is to climb to FL054 or FL074 (just below the base of CAS to the south of Shoreham) in a suitable "hole" in the weather, before calling up anybody, but this altitude may not be sufficient.
The provisional clearance from Shoreham Tower was "remain OCAS, squawk 0515, contact London Control on 133.175".

Subsequently, you are under ATC control the whole time and each IFR ATC unit hands you over to the next one. I have never had to look up a frequency, but I do have a VFR chart running as a GPS moving map and if I lost contact well and truly I would call up the regional FIS frequency.

[achimha]

Enroute frequencies are often hard to find and change over time as sectors get activated or combined. The Jeppesen IFR enroute maps do have some frequencies but it's neither complete nor always correct.

When departing on an instrument procedure, you get the first frequency as part of the procedure, it's printed on the plate (e.g. "Contact XXX Radar immediately after departure"). From there on you get passed on.

When departing on a Z flight plan (i.e. VFR with a pickup), things get more difficult depending on the country. What usually works is to contact the FIS unit in charge (its frequencies are published as part of the VFR maps) and ask for the pickup. That will give you the right frequency.

Another scenario is lost contact. When I started IFR, I had old Collins VHFs without frequency preselect, so once you tune in another frequency, the old one is gone. Make one mistake and you're at loss. If you're totally desperate you can ask on 121.5 MHz but best is to find the FIS frequency or in case you don't have a VFR map pick some decent sized controlled airfield that is near and ask there.

The Jeppesen databases on Garmins etc. sometimes have frequency lists. However, they are usually just a list of frequencies without any hint which one is what.

Another annoying thing: in some countries ATC like to dump you without telling you how to continue communication wise. For example when crossing borders or when cancelling IFR. Happened to me several times in different countries and it can be very annoying. Things like "well, you can try XXX or maybe YYY" really annoy me.

[achimha]

UK seems to be very similar to the US in that regard. A large airport typically handles the whole airspace in its vicinity. In the US, the indispensable ForeFlight gives you the right frequencies for any given place on the map. That is very useful. However, it also means a lot of frequency changes and often difficulties with coordination. It is quite typical in the US to have to request the same service over and over when switching between sectors and get different service levels. I don't have much experience in the UK but it appears to be similar.

Other countries like Germany are a bit different. Here, the airports only perform ATC for their control zone, typically not more than 3000ft AGL and a few NM around the airport. Everything else is handled centrally in tree FIRs in Germany (Langen, Munich, Bremen). FIS is also provided by those units. A few exceptions exist, typically around airforce bases where the military performs ATC.

[peterh337]

However, IIRC, Langen also support VFR traffic, whereas in the UK London Control never talk to VFR traffic, or IFR OCAS except for the briefest periods and during those you can get dumped totally.

The UK has gone for a totally watertight separation there.

Scotland is better, with a bit of diffusion.

[Contacttower]

Yes one can freecall Scottish Control if you are planning to fly about FL55 I think it is whereas I've never heard of anyone freecalling London...

[Johnm]

I travelled IFR from Carcassone via Poitiers and Alderney to Gloucester yesterday, no en route charts, just terminal and all en route frequencies passed by the controllers, AFAIK that's normal

[Contacttower]

Surely you carried enroute charts though?

[achimha]

I don't have IFR enroute charts and when on an IFR flight plan, don't carry VFR charts that I don't already own. For IFR enroute, I use my Garmin and JeppFD on the iPad. Neither contain frequencies.

[Immortal]

Thanks for all the answers. No freq's enroute en the iPad as a source for plates. I am also looking into this headset (FreeCom 7000 http://www.skyleader.nl/FreeCom%20Brochure.pdf). The flightbag is getting really light this way! That is good for W&B! :E

[peterh337]

You need a backup for the Ipad (which can fail at any time) and also need VFR charts for

- Z flight plans
- Y flight plans
- any IFR flight on which IFR is cancelled prior to landing
- any IFR flight with OCAS sections
- any IFR flight which departs from an unmanned airport (unable to collect clearance to enter CAS until some unspecified time after takeoff)
- any IFR flight which departs from a manned airport which is unable to get the clearance to enter CAS, for whatever reason
- emergency use (obstacle clearance on engine failure / icing / etc)

For pure IFR in 100% CAS and with no chance of going down prematurely, no VFR charts or other topo data are needed, so airline crews don't carry them :)

[Immortal]

So a cheap Android tablet with Jepp FD and some kind of VFR map app. Bag is still light.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jeppesen.android.tc

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.xample.airnavigation&hl=en

[achimha]

Unfortunately there are no pan-European VFR maps for Android/iOS in "production" quality, i.e. where a mistake due to an error in the map would get you out of jail. Only the CAA maps and the Jeppesen maps are trustworthy today. Some CAAs offer their maps for download. This basically means you need a rather extensive and expensive collection of paper maps if you do some traveling.

I wish Jeppesen would finally offer their VFR maps on the iPad at reasonable cost. They already offer up to date IFR maps free of charge (bonus feature of JeppFD).

[Johnm]

Surely you carried enroute charts though? Not IFR, no point. I carried VFR charts in case it all went t1ts up and both paper and Ipad terminal charts but that's it.

[Contacttower]

Well I think if I'd turned up to a CAA IR test without charts that would have caused a certain amount of consternation from the examiner!

To be fair though if one's GPS is working I agree you don't really need them most of the time.

However say one is in the busy LTMA coming into Biggin or something; unless one is really familiar with all the London waypoints you are going to be asking ATC for a lot of waypoint spelling if you don't have some way of looking at the airways structure that you are likely to encounter ahead of you. For practical purposes unless one has the airways chart on an ipad, or have a GPS which displays the structure (rather than just your route and entered waypoints) I find the chart is still a useful aid to understanding the bigger picture when flying IFR.

[achimha]

I find the chart is still a useful aid to understanding the bigger picture when flying IFR.

Try planning an IFR flight from the UK to southern Germany. Now check which IFR enroute maps you need. It might ruin your W&B! Also those maps get updated all the time and you end up killing a whole rain forrest.

unless one is really familiar with all the London waypoints you are going to be asking ATC for a lot of waypoint spelling if you don't have some way of looking at the airways structure that you are likely to encounter ahead of you.

Well, let them spell the waypoint then. In most cases the waypoints are somewhere in my flight planned route which I have in front of me (assuming that most ATC instructions are shortcuts to a later point in your route). I have never had to deal with airway names outside the US. In Europe, ATC only use waypoints in my experience. Even when reading back your clearance, they only mention waypoints even though you file with the airway names in between. When you get near your destination, you open up the arrival chart which has all relevant waypoints.

[Contacttower]

Try planning an IFR flight from the UK to southern Germany. Now check which IFR enroute maps you need. It might ruin your W&B! Also those maps get updated all the time and you end up killing a whole rain forrest.

Using Jeppesens that's about two or three very small charts on their customary loo roll paper...what are you referring to?

Jep EN 3/4 covers a bit of the west of Germany and then the next set east of that covers the rest of it (don't have my flying stuff to hand).

ATC only use waypoints in my experience. Even when reading back your clearance, they only mention waypoints even though you file with the airway names in between. When you get near your destination, you open up the arrival chart which has all relevant waypoints.

The average UK clearance doesn't have any waypoints in it at all! Its not like in the US when they give them all to you at the start. I have flown the length of the UK loads of times IFR and never had the same route twice...ATC make it up as they go along. Also in the London TMA if you started to ask for a waypoint spelling every time ATC decided to alter their plans and send you off it in a different direction the controllers would get very tired of you I think. :E

[Johnm]

I get them spelt and don't tolerate being vectored all over the sky by London. ATC are there for pilots not the other way round! I expect to follow the planned route or a shorter one!

The French controllers I talked to yesterday all seemed to want to help and gave me nice straight lines unlike the CFMU!

[Contacttower]

The French controllers I talked to yesterday all seemed to want to help and gave me nice straight lines unlike the CFMU! Agreed the French controllers are very nice and generally long DCTs across the country are the norm.

However in my experience crossing the London TMA at FL100 at 140kts as I was a while ago going from Brussels back up north or indeed going into Biggin from the north is less a case of "not tolerating" being vectored around and more that as a slow piece of traffic you simply have to be moved around a bit sometimes and that often ATC will make reference to waypoints that are not on your flight plan or call radio aids by their full name rather than their ID and that unless you know the area well, which to be honest even now I don't really know that well in IFR terms at least, it is very useful to have a diagram of the area you are crossing in front of you; whether that be a physical chart or if you are lucky enough to have an IFR GPS that can display airways. I mean it helps for example because you can see at a glance what ATC is trying to do with you and ascertain whether it is acceptable or not.

If you can get London Control to give you your filed route or shorter every time you are a better man than me sir! :)

Plus there is other info like Grid Safety altitudes that will be clearly presented should the need arise to use it...

[mutt]

JeppFD on the iPad. Neither contain frequencies. Yes it does, look at the I symbol at airspace boundaries and you will find them in a pop up window.
We carry 2 IPAD's onboard with JeppFD, but we also have 3 sets of enroute charts.
Is flying without paper enroute charts permissible by SAFA?

Mutt

[Contacttower]

By SAFA do you mean the Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Programme? Not sure on that one...

I just find paper charts useful. I think with private pilots one just needs to find a system that works for you, and at the moment paper charts are still part of my system. As PPRuNe reminds us everyday there is more than one way to skin a cat though...

[achimha]

Yes it does, look at the I symbol at airspace boundaries and you will find them in a pop up window.

As I said, it gives you a list of all frequencies, not telling you which is which. Just tried it at the EDMM FIR border -- I get 19 frequencies for RADAR. Pretty useless.

The average UK clearance doesn't have any waypoints in it at all! Its not like in the US when they give them all to you at the start. I have flown the length of the UK loads of times IFR and never had the same route twice...ATC make it up as they go along. Also in the London TMA if you started to ask for a waypoint spelling every time ATC decided to alter their plans and send you off it in a different direction the controllers would get very tired of you I think.

If you don't get waypoints in your clearance, what do you get then? The idea behind IFR is that a sufficiently trained pilot can fly in all ICAO countries without requiring special training for each specific country. Of course 95% of all IFR traffic is the scheduled airline service and the pilots there know every possible move of ATC by heart. As GA traffic unfamiliar with the area, I have no problem insisting on every waypoint to be spelled out. If ATC don't like that, they can assign headings. If an ATC calls his VORs/NDBs by full name with a pilot that is not familiar with the area, that is just unprofessional.

[peterh337]

You do get a clearance to a waypoint initially.

After you are in CAS, they know your filed route (in Europe, in the Eurocontrol enroute system) and your onward clearance is implicit. ATC just gives you various instructions; typically the next waypoint or two, or a heading.

If an ATC calls his VORs/NDBs by full name with a pilot that is not familiar with the area, that is just unprofessional.

Yes, but all ATC units do that. Together with less than recognisable place names, that's why one has to be ready to ask them to spell it.

[mutt]

Achima, you havent stated what type of aircraft you are operating and the registration, so you may/may not be subject to EASA SAFA (Safety Audit Foreign Aircraft), which states...

A6-I-6.2.3c An aeroplane shall carry: c) current and suitable charts to cover the route of the proposed flight and any route along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted.

I know that you are using the JeppFD, but do you have a letter of authorisation for doing so, and a back up?

As for the list of frequencies, it comes in handy if you didnt understand if you were told to change to .625 or .655 :)

Mutt

[Contacttower]

If you don't get waypoints in your clearance, what do you get then? The idea behind IFR is that a sufficiently trained pilot can fly in all ICAO countries without requiring special training for each specific country.

Yes you are quite right that an IR rating pilot should be able to fly worldwide, however the there is no doubt the UK system has a lot of quirks that a foreign pilot might not understand. An interesting thread on here (http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/448092-me-uk-atc-system.html) a little while ago revealed that if one hasn't flown IFR in the UK before there are a number of surprises in store even for an experienced pilot.

I don't really like the UK system either, I think it would be better if we went over to a system like in the US and France where most airspace is E rather than a watertight class A system like we have at the moment but it is what it is...one advantage though of having lots of class G is that one can do tactical bits of IMC here and there without needing a clearance, which can be useful sometimes as well...

As Peter said the clearance is implicit after the first waypoint or SID in the departure clearance because when you file a valid Eurocontrol routing that is de facto your clearance. The idea being that if ATC need to deviate you they will tell you so either just before departure or during the flight.

I forgot that the US is not like this the last time I went there and trying to get a clearance from the Philadelphia area to Boston I wasn't really ready when the clearance controller gave me a completely different route to my filed one...queue start again please and say everything very slowly! The US controller was very patient I have to say...

[achimha]

I know that you are using the JeppFD, but do you have a letter of authorisation for doing so, and a back up?

I fly an EASA reg SEP < 2t, non commercial. Why would I need a letter of authorization? I have a GNS430 and a Garmin 695, both have current IFR maps and JeppFD as well. What "current and suitable" and "reasonable to expect" mean would be subject to a court ruling which I assume to be in my favor. Note that the word "backup" isn't mentioned anywhere.

As Peter said the clearance is implicit after the first waypoint or SID in the departure clearance because when you file a valid Eurocontrol routing that is de facto your clearance. The idea being that if ATC need to deviate you they will tell you so either just before departure or during the flight.

Right, just like in the rest of Europe. And when talking to ATC, you never need airway names. While you file something like "RINEX Y732 ABGAP...", an ATC unit would never tell you "next waypoint RINEX, follow Y732", at least not in my experience. If I did need airway names, it would be more complicated because the GNS Garmins don't know them and in JeppFD one cannot search for airway names.

[Contacttower]

Yes they generally won't use airway names in the UK either.

How do you find using the Gamin 695 for IFR flying? Do you use the airways overlay for the map? I carry one but would usually only switch it on if I lost the panel.

Also does JeppFD show your position on the chart or is it just for displaying the charts?

Just curious to know what other pilots are using for IFR flying...

[achimha]

How do you find using the Gamin 695 for IFR flying? Do you use the airways overlay for the map? I carry one but would usually only switch it on if I lost the panel.

In one word: fantastic. The Garmin 695 is a great piece of hardware. It contains both VFR and IFR low/high enroute maps. I have it mounted on my yoke so it's my primary tool. The aircraft is obviously controlled by the certified GNS430 but for situational awareness I love the 695. Here's what it does for me on IFR trips:


Checklists. I have all checklists on the datacard and use the 695 exclusively for that purpose.
Nearest information for airports, VORs, etc. to be prepared for emergencies
Voltage display, this allows me to monitor the alternator.
GPS altitude display. This lets me monitor whether the current QNH is a sensible one. I once had a clogged static port on one side of the aircraft and in a heavy crosswind situation my altimeter read 400ft higher. Dangerous situation!
The track line in front of the aircraft helps me fly holdings because I can just twist the heading knob so that the track line points to the fix. With its 5 minute marks, I also know when I will be where.
I get traffic information through a PowerFLARM unit connected to the 695.
It constantly shows the MSA and has a great vertical altitude view.
The large screen and the nice scrolling/panning/zooming feature allow me to examine the airspace and suggest shortcuts to ATC. In my experience, asking for a specific shortcut often works better than just asking for a shortcut.
Great track log and flight timer functionality.


Also does JeppFD show your position on the chart or is it just for displaying the charts?

Yes, it does show the position. The app is kind of unreliable with frequent crashes and hangs. Depending on your aircraft, you might need an external bluetooth GPS as the iPad GPS is rather poor.

[Contacttower]

In one word: fantastic. The Garmin 695 is a great piece of hardware.

Yes it sounds like I should be making more use of it! It's just such a shame that we don't get XM weather in Europe..

[peterh337]

I know that you are using the JeppFD, but do you have a letter of authorisation for doing so, and a back up?

No reg in Europe or the USA specifies paper charts must be carried. This has been done to death here many times.

I fly with all planned stuff on paper (my next trip is 1" of printouts in total, down to Turkey) for obvious backup reasons, and I would never fly with say an Ipad as the only place where stuff is, but no reg requires paper charts.

The only scenario where the way you operate is specifies is commercial (AOC) ops. Not private flight.

The stuff about FAA approval of Ipads etc is a load of bollox in this context. They have no power to approve portable equipment like this. That stuff is applicable only to admissibility for AOC ops manuals.

And when talking to ATC, you never need airway names.

You do sometimes, very rarely. I've had airway names from London Control, and from Spanish ATC.

How do you find using the Gamin 695 for IFR flying?

For Eurocontrol IFR you need a BRNAV approved installation. A handheld does not comply with that. You can use it, of course, in reality because no reg specifies how exactly you must navigate. I have a G496 which is on the yoke and could be used as a "DCT box" in case of a power failure.

[Contacttower]

For Eurocontrol IFR you need a BRNAV approved installation.

Oh yes I know that, I wouldn't dream of taking off with just the handheld, I just meant as a general tool for assisting an orderly and efficient flight.

[peterh337]

It depends on how you like to fly.

I use the panel mounted GPS for primary nav at all times, but like to supplement it with a different map presentation.

For VFR hacking and low-level IFR around the UK, I run the "actual printed" CAA charts, under Oziexplorer. They are easily "found" in both Ozi and QCT formats.

For high altitude IFR I run a mixture of VFR charts, again under Ozi, or when crossing mountains above an overcast I run a topo map produced from Google Terrain - about 100GB of tiles for the Alps and the Pyrenees. These presentations are intended for emergency use, because an emergency (when you are going to go down) is really VFR :E

[Fuji Abound]

because an emergency (when you are going to go down) is really VFR http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Well, hopefully, anyway! ;)

[500 above]

As GA traffic unfamiliar with the area, I have no problem insisting on every waypoint to be spelled out. If ATC don't like that, they can assign headings

Coming from a 'pilot' who self admits he never checks the flaps on his C182 ths is not a surprising attitude. The area controllers must love you. A real ambassador for GA!

[achimha]

For high altitude IFR I run a mixture of VFR charts, again under Ozi, or when crossing mountains above an overcast I run a topo map produced from Google Terrain - about 100GB of tiles for the Alps and the Pyrenees. These presentations are intended for emergency use, because an emergency (when you are going to go down) is really VFR

The Garmin 495/695 also contain topography. Do you use the Google data to get more detailed information?

[achimha]

Coming from a 'pilot' who self admits he never checks the flaps on his C182 ths is not a surprising attitude. The area controllers must love you. A real ambassador for GA!

I never have trouble with ATC. The 5 letter identifiers are designed to be easy to pronounce and understand. Most of the time, it is possible to get an unknown waypoint right the first time. If not, ask. Familiarity with airspace is definitely not a requirement for IFR. When ATC are in a rush, I've observed several times instructions like "direct ABCDE, that is approximately heading 095" to get the aircraft on course while they are searching their FMS. Usually not required for slow SEPs.

[Dan the weegie]

Is flying without paper enroute charts permissible by SAFA?

Ramp checked last week, went over the whole aircraft and we scored no points :) no requirement on the form for paper charts other than relevant approach plates.

[Contacttower]

Ramp checked last week, went over the whole aircraft and we scored no points http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif no requirement on the form for paper charts other than relevant approach plates.

Just curious, where was that and what registration are you flying under?

[peterh337]

Do you use the Google data to get more detailed information?

Yes. You get a very good topo chart

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/kithira/ozi1.jpg

[10W]

I get them spelt and don't tolerate being vectored all over the sky by London. ATC are there for pilots not the other way round! I expect to follow the planned route or a shorter one!


I hope I misunderstand you ..... but if not:

Does that mean you tell London you aren't going to do what they ask you to do ? And to hell with them, let them sort out all the other aircraft they are trying to separate you from ?

ATC is there for the benefit of ALL pilots, which can mean if you are the odd ball going against the rest of the orderly flow, you might get moved around a bit for the greater good of everyone. If you are not able to tolerate that, stop being selfish and don't fly through busy airspace where everyone else is playing the game and doing their bit to keep things moving.

[Fuji Abound]

Actually isnt there a balance?

There are times when we all might think ATC is being a real pain in the pita and really neither being helpful and yes, on occasions perhaps because we are just a bit of a nuisance to other faster and "paying" traffic. It is rarely the case, but I think it happens, and there are times you feel like reminding them there are two parties to the contract.

Just a thought.

[10W]

You are right Fuji, but it's usually very little to do with who is paying what (a 747 will be paying more than a 737 for example) and everything to do with what is the most expeditious, orderly, and safe flow of air traffic.

On occasion, that can even mean the slow overflying GA aircraft is kept where he should be and other jet traffic is moved around him. :cool:

It is democratic generally, in other words, the majority users rule :ok:

[peterh337]

Normally one does as told by ATC, not least because one has no way of knowing why ATC are issuing a specific instruction.

There however seem to be occassions when one ATCO is making his/her life a bit easier than another ATCO might have done.

The most common example is IFR GA traffic getting dumped out of CAS way too early, even though it is at the customary LTMA crossing level of FL100-120 or so. It happens much less than it used to, presumably because the issue has received a big profile on some liason committees.

I have on occassions refused to accept such early dump, due to hazardous wx close ahead, and on one occassion due to a passenger having painful ear clearing problems (so was unable to deliver the -1500fpm or faster descent requested by ATC). ATC were OK with that and just gave me headings.

[mad_jock]

Just curious, where was that and what registration are you flying under?

It doesn't matter what the reg is.

You can have a D reg plane flying under a spanish AOC with a Brit pilot flying it.

EASA - Safety Assessment Of Foreign Aircraft (EC SAFA Programme) (http://easa.europa.eu/approvals-and-standardisation/safety-assessment-of-foreign-aircraft-SAFA.php)

If your ops manuals have been approved by the NAA that issued the AOC don't stipulate that they need to be carried you don't have to.

In the UK AOC's the part C's stipulates that airways charts should be carried.

[Fuji Abound]

10W I agree and I would reiterate in the vast majority of cases there is very good reason for the instructions given. The point was that there is the odd occasion (and Peterh337 gives a good example) when you cant imagine of a single good reason.

[Contacttower]

It doesn't matter what the reg is.

Yes I know, I was just interested to know who is being ramp checked and where...:E

[mad_jock]

Everyone and anywhere in europe is normal these days.

Even BA sometimes gets a visit.

[Fuji Abound]

Reminds me of a true story that still makes me chuckle.

BA aircraft and the autocrats turn up for a ramp check - all three of them. They announce their intentions but my mate asks them to produce their ID tabs. As it happens they had forgotten to hang them. Well my mate says in that case they aren't getting past the hosties and that's all there is to it. There follows must protestation and wagging of figures but my mate isn't budging and they huddle on the apron as said pilots initiates the taxi from the ramp.

With some glee he recounts he gives them a short burst of Mr Boeings finest as they huddle; the pipes are directly in front of them - papers, clipboards et al fly every where and the BA flight departs on time for Blighty.

My mate was in his last year before retiring and as he said hadn't anything to loose, notwithstanding he was within his rights and they were wrong.

[mad_jock]

I had one in Finland which was memorable.

3 inspectors turned up with an engineer. 2 inspectors were under training.

Engineer did the outside and sat at the back while we did the paper work and the other stuff.

In Finland most of if not all Inspectors are operational Finair pilots.

All very sensible and in no way aggressive.

End of it was well thats all, any issues with the aircraft ongoing?

I said well under discussion with the engineer about a hydralic weep but he says its deicing fluid.

So all of us go outside to look at the tail with a sticky substance on it. All of the pilots agree that its hydralic fluid.

Engineer takes one look at it and announces ":mad: pilots, bunch clueless :mad:" and walked off to the van. We all looked at each other shrugged and shoke hands and they went off to the van.