IFR enroute frequencies

[Immortal]

I was wondering how the IFR pilots on this forum get their IFR enroute frequencies. I flown a couple of times IFR now (I don't have an IR myself) and saw dat most pilots go to rocketroute or eurofpl and query the CFMU computers to find a route to the destination. Before departure they enter this route into the 430/530 Garmin and of they go.

As for the departure and arrival there are (Jepp) charts available with the approach and tower frequencies. But I noticed that (the pilots I've flow with) do not have any preflight information for the frequencies enroute. Were these just lazy pilots or is this how it works? You just wait for the frequency handover and you just have to listen very carefully for the next frequency? I also noticed that some pilots don't have the IFR enroute maps in the cockpit. They follow the purple/pink line on the GPS (or directs from ATC) to the destination.

If this is not the way it should be, were can I find the enroute frequencies? On the IFR enroute map and/or somewhere else?

[Dan the weegie]

Most are in the AIP for the country in question but I guarantee you that most places pilots get frequencies is from is the station they're being handed off from. Once you're under control, you get handed over from place to place - it's much simpler than VFR freecall

[Dan the weegie]

We carry no en-route charts. All the planning gets done for us by software and an underpaid youth in Ops. We just carry the approach plates for diversion and en route airfields.

[Contacttower]

Most of the time I just listen to the frequencies that ATC tell me to call enroute...I know most of the ones in Scotland but around London there are so many different ones that it seems to vary all the time. As long as you know your initial one, whether it be London Info or a local radar unit to get you into the system it doesn't really matter. Looking the Jepp chart there are about seven or something frequencies listed for London Control with little clue as to which does what so why try to guess...

For arrival obviously you need ATIS and tower (so that you don't have to fiddle when you are flying the ILS, which is usually when the tower frequency is given to you) but they will be on your approach charts.

[peterh337]

If you mean low level IFR (hacking around the UK in Class G; usually there is no flight plan, or a VFR one) then you call up the usual radar units for a radar service, etc e.g. Farnborough.

If you mean high altitude IFR (IFR flight plan filed via Eurocontrol, at high altitude e.g. FL100+ so that London Control accepts it) then you collect a provisional departure clearance (squawk, the initial London Control frequency, etc) from the tower or, if there is nobody in the tower, with a call to London Information.

That's in the UK.

If you go to the start of this trip report you can see it there

If doing this type of "unmanned airfield" departure, one normally contacts London Information on 124.60 when airborne but on this occassion there was someone in the tower and they phoned up London Control in the usual way for the provisional IFR clearance. The phone number for London Control is not published, which is a pity because London Information can take up to 30 minutes to get the provisional clearance and one can be out of UK airspace by then, especially if departing to the south, which at worst could force a turn-back if the lack of a climb clearance into CAS makes it impossible to avoid hazardous weather down the route. One trick to play in such a situation is to climb to FL054 or FL074 (just below the base of CAS to the south of Shoreham) in a suitable "hole" in the weather, before calling up anybody, but this altitude may not be sufficient.
The provisional clearance from Shoreham Tower was "remain OCAS, squawk 0515, contact London Control on 133.175".

Subsequently, you are under ATC control the whole time and each IFR ATC unit hands you over to the next one. I have never had to look up a frequency, but I do have a VFR chart running as a GPS moving map and if I lost contact well and truly I would call up the regional FIS frequency.

[achimha]

Enroute frequencies are often hard to find and change over time as sectors get activated or combined. The Jeppesen IFR enroute maps do have some frequencies but it's neither complete nor always correct.

When departing on an instrument procedure, you get the first frequency as part of the procedure, it's printed on the plate (e.g. "Contact XXX Radar immediately after departure"). From there on you get passed on.

When departing on a Z flight plan (i.e. VFR with a pickup), things get more difficult depending on the country. What usually works is to contact the FIS unit in charge (its frequencies are published as part of the VFR maps) and ask for the pickup. That will give you the right frequency.

Another scenario is lost contact. When I started IFR, I had old Collins VHFs without frequency preselect, so once you tune in another frequency, the old one is gone. Make one mistake and you're at loss. If you're totally desperate you can ask on 121.5 MHz but best is to find the FIS frequency or in case you don't have a VFR map pick some decent sized controlled airfield that is near and ask there.

The Jeppesen databases on Garmins etc. sometimes have frequency lists. However, they are usually just a list of frequencies without any hint which one is what.

Another annoying thing: in some countries ATC like to dump you without telling you how to continue communication wise. For example when crossing borders or when cancelling IFR. Happened to me several times in different countries and it can be very annoying. Things like "well, you can try XXX or maybe YYY" really annoy me.

[achimha]

UK seems to be very similar to the US in that regard. A large airport typically handles the whole airspace in its vicinity. In the US, the indispensable ForeFlight gives you the right frequencies for any given place on the map. That is very useful. However, it also means a lot of frequency changes and often difficulties with coordination. It is quite typical in the US to have to request the same service over and over when switching between sectors and get different service levels. I don't have much experience in the UK but it appears to be similar.

Other countries like Germany are a bit different. Here, the airports only perform ATC for their control zone, typically not more than 3000ft AGL and a few NM around the airport. Everything else is handled centrally in tree FIRs in Germany (Langen, Munich, Bremen). FIS is also provided by those units. A few exceptions exist, typically around airforce bases where the military performs ATC.

[peterh337]

However, IIRC, Langen also support VFR traffic, whereas in the UK London Control never talk to VFR traffic, or IFR OCAS except for the briefest periods and during those you can get dumped totally.

The UK has gone for a totally watertight separation there.

Scotland is better, with a bit of diffusion.

[Contacttower]

Yes one can freecall Scottish Control if you are planning to fly about FL55 I think it is whereas I've never heard of anyone freecalling London...

[Johnm]

I travelled IFR from Carcassone via Poitiers and Alderney to Gloucester yesterday, no en route charts, just terminal and all en route frequencies passed by the controllers, AFAIK that's normal

[Contacttower]

Surely you carried enroute charts though?

[achimha]

I don't have IFR enroute charts and when on an IFR flight plan, don't carry VFR charts that I don't already own. For IFR enroute, I use my Garmin and JeppFD on the iPad. Neither contain frequencies.

[Immortal]

Thanks for all the answers. No freq's enroute en the iPad as a source for plates. I am also looking into this headset (FreeCom 7000 http://www.skyleader.nl/FreeCom%20Brochure.pdf). The flightbag is getting really light this way! That is good for W&B!

[peterh337]

You need a backup for the Ipad (which can fail at any time) and also need VFR charts for

- Z flight plans
- Y flight plans
- any IFR flight on which IFR is cancelled prior to landing
- any IFR flight with OCAS sections
- any IFR flight which departs from an unmanned airport (unable to collect clearance to enter CAS until some unspecified time after takeoff)
- any IFR flight which departs from a manned airport which is unable to get the clearance to enter CAS, for whatever reason
- emergency use (obstacle clearance on engine failure / icing / etc)

For pure IFR in 100% CAS and with no chance of going down prematurely, no VFR charts or other topo data are needed, so airline crews don't carry them

[Immortal]

So a cheap Android tablet with Jepp FD and some kind of VFR map app. Bag is still light.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...sen.android.tc

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...vigation&hl=en

[achimha]

Unfortunately there are no pan-European VFR maps for Android/iOS in "production" quality, i.e. where a mistake due to an error in the map would get you out of jail. Only the CAA maps and the Jeppesen maps are trustworthy today. Some CAAs offer their maps for download. This basically means you need a rather extensive and expensive collection of paper maps if you do some traveling.

I wish Jeppesen would finally offer their VFR maps on the iPad at reasonable cost. They already offer up to date IFR maps free of charge (bonus feature of JeppFD).

[Johnm]

Surely you carried enroute charts though?

Not IFR, no point. I carried VFR charts in case it all went t1ts up and both paper and Ipad terminal charts but that's it.

[Contacttower]

Well I think if I'd turned up to a CAA IR test without charts that would have caused a certain amount of consternation from the examiner!

To be fair though if one's GPS is working I agree you don't really need them most of the time.

However say one is in the busy LTMA coming into Biggin or something; unless one is really familiar with all the London waypoints you are going to be asking ATC for a lot of waypoint spelling if you don't have some way of looking at the airways structure that you are likely to encounter ahead of you. For practical purposes unless one has the airways chart on an ipad, or have a GPS which displays the structure (rather than just your route and entered waypoints) I find the chart is still a useful aid to understanding the bigger picture when flying IFR.

[achimha]

I find the chart is still a useful aid to understanding the bigger picture when flying IFR.

Try planning an IFR flight from the UK to southern Germany. Now check which IFR enroute maps you need. It might ruin your W&B! Also those maps get updated all the time and you end up killing a whole rain forrest.

unless one is really familiar with all the London waypoints you are going to be asking ATC for a lot of waypoint spelling if you don't have some way of looking at the airways structure that you are likely to encounter ahead of you.

Well, let them spell the waypoint then. In most cases the waypoints are somewhere in my flight planned route which I have in front of me (assuming that most ATC instructions are shortcuts to a later point in your route). I have never had to deal with airway names outside the US. In Europe, ATC only use waypoints in my experience. Even when reading back your clearance, they only mention waypoints even though you file with the airway names in between. When you get near your destination, you open up the arrival chart which has all relevant waypoints.

[Contacttower]

Try planning an IFR flight from the UK to southern Germany. Now check which IFR enroute maps you need. It might ruin your W&B! Also those maps get updated all the time and you end up killing a whole rain forrest.

Using Jeppesens that's about two or three very small charts on their customary loo roll paper...what are you referring to?

Jep EN 3/4 covers a bit of the west of Germany and then the next set east of that covers the rest of it (don't have my flying stuff to hand).

ATC only use waypoints in my experience. Even when reading back your clearance, they only mention waypoints even though you file with the airway names in between. When you get near your destination, you open up the arrival chart which has all relevant waypoints.

The average UK clearance doesn't have any waypoints in it at all! Its not like in the US when they give them all to you at the start. I have flown the length of the UK loads of times IFR and never had the same route twice...ATC make it up as they go along. Also in the London TMA if you started to ask for a waypoint spelling every time ATC decided to alter their plans and send you off it in a different direction the controllers would get very tired of you I think.