LAPL [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

BEagle

4th Sep 2012, 14:18

Conversion of existing licences is defined in CAP 804. Because the NPPL requires more solo flying before being issued than does the LAPL, only those pilots who haven't completed 6 hrs PIC since NPPL issue will need to do so before being able to carry passengers as LAPL holders - even though they could do so as NPPL holders.....:\

No ATO approval is needed to convert a licence to a LAPL, but approval is needed to instruct for initial issue of a LAPL. Thus to teach 67% of a 'proper' PPL course (i.e. the LAPL), a training organisation which has been training pilots for perhaps 50 years will need to pay the ludicrous 'approval fee' to become an ATO, but to carry on teaching a PPL course there is no need to become an ATO until 2015......

The logic of which is only apparent to a blinkered €urocrat...:rolleyes:

As has been said many times, EASA is a totally unnecessary organisation, hell-bent on fixing things which simply aren't broken. More and more it is demonstrating that it is manifestly unfit for purpose.

Whopity, have you tried printing out the ridiculous new 'Certificate of Revalidation' panel of the 16-panel 2-sided A4-to-A7 origami which EASA calls a licence? The space for the Examiner's certificate number and signature are each 11 x 8 mm in size. Interestingly, the Examiner doesn't need to include his/her name.....

The CAA allege that pilots won't be allowed to cut up this ridiculous document to fit the normal A6 licence holder - although at the last EASA FCL_PG meeting, I was told that this wasn't true - it's something that the CAA seems to have invented by itself.

Whopity

4th Sep 2012, 15:41

Whopity, have you tried printing out the ridiculous new 'Certificate of Revalidation' panel of the 16-panel 2-sided A4-to-A7 origami which EASA calls a licence? The space for the Examiner's certificate number and signature are each 11 x 8 mm in size. Interestingly, the Examiner doesn't need to include his/her name.....No, I have better things to do, but at first glance I found 4 fundamental errors in the example licence!

md 600 driver

4th Sep 2012, 16:00

I don't think you can get a LAPL medical yet?

BillieBob

4th Sep 2012, 16:33

Are there exams for it and have approvals actually been issued?Yes and No. The theoretical knowledge examinations are the same as for the PPL and the UK will not issue an approval for the LAPL until 17 Sep at the earliest.

muffin

4th Sep 2012, 17:56

I don't think you can get a LAPL medical yet?

No, not quite. You will have to wait until Sept 17 . I spoke to my AME today to book one, but he doesn't yet know exactly what it involves so wouldn't give me an appointment until early October so he has a chance to get up to speed with it. Forget the GP route- there is absolutely no incentive for them to register to do something they don't understand and are not interested in.

BEagle

4th Sep 2012, 18:35

Forget the GP route- there is absolutely no incentive for them to register to do something they don't understand and are not interested in.

Sadly true. Probably the most problems we've had to resolve for NPPL applicants have been those which have arisen due to the intransigent nature of some GPs....

At least the LAPL Medical Certificate will be available from AMEs!

BEagle

4th Sep 2012, 20:41

See CAP804 Section 4 Part P Page 11-12. (.pdf pp 435 & 436 / 794).

You can download CAP804 at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804rfs.pdf . An updated version will be released shortly.

BEagle

5th Sep 2012, 06:37

EASA cannot include this in their document as it is a UK national conversion report - other countries, oops, 'member states' will probably have similar conversion reports once they get round to thinking about them....

Incidentally, this is the new 'Certificate of Experience' page:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/IMG_0267-1.jpg

The blue outline on the right is the size of a credit card, so you can see how it will be virtually impossible for an Examiner to fill in his/her certificate no. and signature in those wretched little 11mm x 8 mm boxes.....:(

Whopity

5th Sep 2012, 10:11

We've been there before, the old credit card licence. I note there is nowhere to enter the validity of the English Language proficiency for those who might not be Level 6!

BEagle

5th Sep 2012, 10:50

I note there is nowhere to enter the validity of the English Language proficiency for those who might not be Level 6!

Page 3 Section XIII, surely?

Whopity

5th Sep 2012, 11:03

That's the initial validity, if it has to be revalidated as in Level 4 or 5 the only way is to have it reissued.

BEagle

5th Sep 2012, 17:11

Quite correct, Whopity - I understand that the CAA is well aware of the extra administrative burden imposed by the utter lunacy of EASA part-FCL....:mad:

Whopity

5th Sep 2012, 17:26

And then what happens to all the rating signatures in micro miniature writing that will disappear when they reissue it? Up to know, they have not been able to cope with existing Cs of R and you have to keep the old "separate" revalidation certificate!

BEagle

5th Sep 2012, 18:42

That, I guess, is yet another aspect which hasn't been properly considered!

You really couldn't have made it up......:mad:

Hardly surprising I gave up instructing and examining with all this utterly shambolic €urobolleaux about to make its thoroughly unwelcome apperance on the scene....:\

Whopity

5th Sep 2012, 18:59

Sadly, I think a lot of others will follow suit.

S-Works

5th Sep 2012, 21:21

Jesus, it's like watching grumpy old men.....

xrayalpha

6th Sep 2012, 07:37

Filling in rating sheet?

Think "out the box" and write out the box!

AnglianAV8R

6th Sep 2012, 09:04

Thinking outside the box....... We're all being softened up with this apalling paperwork and will happily accept our chip being injected to hold all our records. Just need a scanner, job done :ok:

Seriously though, have they clearly defined the steps needed to go from NPPL to this new fangled euro licence?

Also, I'd assume that the restriction on carrying passengers for the first xyz hours doesn't apply to taking along a suitably qualified pilot?

BEagle

6th Sep 2012, 11:48

Seriously though, have they clearly defined the steps needed to go from NPPL to this new fangled euro licence?

Also, I'd assume that the restriction on carrying passengers for the first xyz hours doesn't apply to taking along a suitably qualified pilot?

If you mean the conversion process from NPPL(A) with SSEA Class Rating to LAPL(A) with Single Engine Piston aeroplane endorsement, the answer is yes.

See CAP 804 Section 4 Part P Page 11-12.

soaringhigh650

6th Sep 2012, 12:45

all this utterly shambolic €urobolleaux

BEagle, you appear to be a staunch critic of EASA? Maybe it's worth considering sitting with all the guys up there to work out something positive together going forward? Or get yourself promoted to head of FCL?

It could be much more productive than sitting here with an axe to grind! :)

Whopity

6th Sep 2012, 13:15

Maybe it's worth considering sitting with all the guys up there to work out something positive What a naive view you have. Do you really believe anyone in FCL actually sat there and worked all this out? EASA received over 8000 comments from informed members of Industry and the CAA and ignored most of them.

BillieBob

6th Sep 2012, 15:19

Or get yourself promoted to head of FCL?This pre-supposes that one would see 'Head of FCL' as a promotion, even if such a position existed.

tonyhalsall

6th Sep 2012, 15:41

As I understand from enquiries made and answers received.....

Holders of the NPPL SSEA will migrate to LAPL sometime before 2015 but the medical requirements will be more rigid than at present and require sign off by an AME.

Does anyone yet know the full medical requirements? If the medical is to be more onerous what will happen to those Pilots who got back into flying after failing the JAR medical and going NPPL and getting a GP medical? Will they be out of flying again?

I have a current CAA (M) and a lapsed NPPL SSEA and have been toying with the idea of revalidating the NPPL but before doing so really need to understand the implications of the propsed changes to the medical.

muffin

6th Sep 2012, 15:48

Only another 11 days and hopefully all will be revealed

BEagle

6th Sep 2012, 16:11

Does anyone yet know the full medical requirements?

See: http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-015-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20on%20the%20medical%20certification%20of%20p ilots%20and%20medical%20fitness%20of%20cabin%20crew.pdf

soaringhigh650, what the heck do you think I've been doing for the past few years?

tonyhalsall

6th Sep 2012, 16:57

So quite different to the NPPL SSEA medical then and I can't see a GP agreeing to do it so cost implications as well :eek:

I understand that an NPPL SSEA will have to migrate to LAPL. Seems there could be a few casualties!

pulse1

6th Sep 2012, 17:59

I understand that an NPPL SSEA will have to migrate to LAPL.

Or migrate to LAA land.

tonyhalsall

6th Sep 2012, 18:52

Migrate to LAA land? Are you sure? See my questions below to someone who should know - their answers in bold itallics:

I simply want to fly low performance, lightweight aircraft in daytime VFR conditions with the minimum of fuss. I am happy with the NPPL medical and really feel that the NPPL is adequate for my needs. I am currently in a group flying a Eurostar microlight and would like to buy an LAA aircraft “Streak Shadow” which requires an SSEA licence.

Can you give me the definitive answer to these questions please:

1) Will the NPPL (SSEA) evolve into an LAPL with higher medical requirements?
2) Will the NPPL (SSEA) stay as it is but require higher medical requirements?

1.The NPPL (SSEA) will evolve into the LAPL- however the medical requirement have not yet been fixed by Brussles (!)
2. The NPPL will become the LAPL and you will exchange it before 2015 sometime.

BillieBob

6th Sep 2012, 19:22

See my questions below to someone who should knowYour informant is sadly misinformed and both of the answers given are incorrect. The NPPL will continue in its present form and will exist alongside the LAPL. From 8 April 2015 the NPPL will be valid only on UK registered, non-EASA aircraft while the LAPL will be valid on both EASA and non-EASA aircraft.

The medical requirements for the LAPL have been fixed and in the public domain since 5 April 2012.

tonyhalsall

6th Sep 2012, 19:37

Very worrying. When I say he should know, I really mean that he SHOULD know given his position and where he appears and the capacity as an official person of reference.
I would certainly have put his advice well above anything I could have found on an internet forum especially as it came back this week from a formal enquiry that I made.
I would feel absurd questioning him!
Dunno what to do now

Lister Noble

6th Sep 2012, 20:34

Most times I look at Prune for concise,accurate infomation I become confused and annoyed with innacurate and sarcastic replies ,which is why I don't post much on here nowadays.
So much so that I forgot my password and needed a new one.

My understanding is that those of us flying on a NPPL,which for me, on an ex military aircraft, will be to carry on just as before, with the same medical self declaration.
I understand that this also applies to certain other type aircraft.

patowalker

6th Sep 2012, 21:54

Tony,

See question 16 here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2330/h-FAQs%20May%202012.pdf

You will be able to fly the Streak Shadow on an NPPL SSEA, but in the UK only.

BEagle

7th Sep 2012, 06:25

If your Streak Shadow is the Microlight version, it may not be flown on an NPPL(SSEA). Similarly, if your Streak Shadow is the SSEA version, it may not be flown on a NPPL(Microlight).

This is because there is no such thing as a NPPL 'Streak Shadow Type Rating'! The Class Ratings included in an NPPL cover all aircraft in that class - an aircraft which meets the Microlight definition needs a Microlight Class Rating and a Single Engine Piston (Land) aeroplane which meets the SSEA definition needs an SSEA Class Rating.

The NPPL will continue in its present form and will exist alongside the LAPL. From 8 April 2015 the NPPL will be valid only on UK registered, non-EASA aircraft while the LAPL will be valid on both EASA and non-EASA aircraft.

The medical requirements for the LAPL have been fixed and in the public domain since 5 April 2012.

Quite correct. The only changes which are of note are:

1. With effect from 17 Sep 2012, if a pilot so chooses, he may use the LAPL Medical Certificate with an NPPL.

2. With effect from 8 Apr 2015, the NPPL may not be used to fly EASA aircraft.

3. Any NPPL issued before 8 Apr 2015 may be converted to a LAPL at any time (including after 8 Apr 2015).

4. Any NPPL issued after 8 Apr 2015 may not be converted to a LAPL.

tonyhalsall

7th Sep 2012, 06:55

Actually I have a current CAA (M) licence which I use to fly a group Eurostar microlight. I also have a lapsed NPPL (SSEA) which I have considered revalidating as I would like to buy a Star Streak or Streak Shadow. I will be happy to revalidate if the single existing medical will be retained and I won't be forced to have two medicals.
Of course I could just buy a microlight version of the Shadow but I felt that the NPPL SSEA would open up more opportunities.

BEagle

7th Sep 2012, 10:47

There is no intention to change current NPPL medical requirements.

neilb2nd

10th Sep 2012, 10:58

The thing that's not clear to me is whether I need two seperate licences or not? I currently fly on an NPPL with a Microlight and SLMG rating. It 'appears' that I can't fly the SLMG on the NPPL after 2015 and that I won't be able to fly the microlight on the LAPL? I can (presumably) do the (higher standard?) LAPL medical to cover both - but do I really need two licences and with no cross-crediting between them to maintain currency?

md 600 driver

10th Sep 2012, 11:10

When is the first date you can do a LAPL medical

BEagle

10th Sep 2012, 12:00

When is the first date you can do a LAPL medical?

In theory, it should be available from 17 Sep 2012.

The thing that's not clear to me is whether I need two seperate licences or not?

A question I have put to the CAA on more than one occasion. Things were much simpler before the leaden hand of €urocracy invented the LAPL and I await a response....:rolleyes:

EDIT: I'm now advised that a LAPL(A) with aeroplane endorsement may be used to fly Microlights, provided that the pilot has received differences training. But flight time in Microlights will not count towards the requirements needed to maintain LAPL(A) validity. However, as far as I can ascertain, it probably won't be acceptable to use a LAPL(A) restricted to TMGs for Microlight flying.

What utter nonsense this whole MDM032 / LAPL bolleaux has proved to be - as I warned it would!

Pilotage

19th Sep 2012, 13:14

I'm now advised that a LAPL(A) with aeroplane endorsement may be used to fly Microlights, provided that the pilot has received differences training.

However, can the instructor do this for a syndicate, or will it have to be done inside an RTO?

P

kui2324

19th Sep 2012, 14:53

A GP who issues a LAPL medical certificate for the first time has to notify the CAA via a web based registration process. Registration is a one-off process and does not have to be repeated subsequently irrespective of the number of pilot assessments undertaken.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/20120716LAPLForGPs.pdf

Whodyanikabolokoff

19th Sep 2012, 17:00

Oh my goodness!!! I am rather confused by this all.

I have a JAR PPL vaild until Oct 13, a Class 2 valid until 2017 and I am currently doing some Microlight (fixed) differences training so that I can rent super cheaply and have some cheap thrills (no gags please (said the bishop..etc etc)).

The cunning plan was to do a simple send off of the JAR to the NPPL people and get a NPPL SSEA and then in a month or so do the microlight GST (having done some cheap consolidation in the meantime) and then add this rating to the NPPL. I would therefore have two ratings on one NPPL - the requirement to keep the SSEA woud only be one hour every 12 months as long as I keep the NPPL valid doing the microlight stuff. I think that is right...my head is spinning. I would let the JAR PPL lapse eventually as too expensive to keep current when versus the above cunning plan.

HOWEVER!! Given the new LAPL, should I forget the NPPL and devise a new more cunning, cunning plan?

Any advice? (apart from asprin)...

Thanks

banditb6

19th Sep 2012, 17:36

Whilst we are on the topic of all this LAPL nonsense and a few people seem to have some ideas about it I thought I would jump in with a question also. Did a New Zealand ICAO PPL 3 years ago and havent flown since, now wanting to fly again in the UK, where I live. Question is do I do the PPL or try and get my head around trying to get a LAPL, I believe the Annual requirements are less for the LAPL? 12 hrs in 24 months, but will still need to do the 7 exams for either licence?

Medicals are slightly different but not really an issue as a Class 2 wont break the bank too much although rather not have to pay it! Also as previously mentioned I would need to do 10 hrs Solo after being issued the LAPL before taking PAX so thats another £1200 or whatever, the LAPL doesn't look that appealing other than the Annual requirements. What happens if I don't do the 12hrs per annum to keep a PPL current? Another flight test etc or a Check ride? Have tried to read the lovely CAP 804 document to find the answers but some of it is clear as mud! Thanks for any help

Whodyanikabolokoff

19th Sep 2012, 20:54

Flip Flop! I have just spent the last 2 hours trying to make sense of CAP804. Eye strain, headache and bad temper have set in.

As far as I can work out my current JAR PPL(A) is now magically an EASA PPL(A) which, on expiry in 2016 will be updated in the new format of EASA and will be never expiring. Current SEP rating vailidity requirements remain the same for an EASA PPL(A) as a JAR PPL(A).

Can someone please tell me what the advantage of the EASA PPL(A) is over a EASA LAPL? For someone flying a PA28-161 for example? The validity requirment for an LAPL seems much easier then a PPL(A), just 12 hours over 24 months and 1 flight with an instructor.

Which makes me think..How do you get an EASA LAPL when you already have (apparently) an EASA PPL(A)?

If I want to fly microlights and SEP then sending off for a NPPL seems to make sense and then just have both ratings, do one hour on one and 12 on the other etc etc BUT from April 2015 if I want to fly an EASA aircraft (PA28 for eg) then I can't without an EASA License!

Hey ho...time for a stiff drink and bed!

Whodyanikabolokoff

20th Sep 2012, 10:01

Anyone? Or is the subject just so damn boring...(probably)...

neilb2nd

20th Sep 2012, 11:50

I'm now advised that a LAPL(A) with aeroplane endorsement may be used to fly Microlights, provided that the pilot has received differences training. But flight time in Microlights will not count towards the requirements needed to maintain LAPL(A) validity

OK - so now I get an LAPL(A) and fly a microlight - but validity is soley based on (A) hours, so I never have to do any microlight revalidation? At least with the NPPL I had to fly an hour on each rating (which didn't make much sense, but this makes even less..).