France and Pontoise

[November Charlie]

I'm planning to fly to Pontoise this weekend- hopefully VFR.

I'm pretty experienced with flying to LFAT but haven't gone much further inland. A couple of questions:

When I cross into the French FIR, who do I speak to? Can I ask for a "Flight Information Service" from Paris North?

Also, I'll be crossing an area between Beauvais and Rouen. Will Paris Info hand me over to either of them or will I have to request that?

Given the Atlas joys, I'll file my return through Afpex before I leave. Does that suffice or do I have to use Olivia?

Finally- any tips about Pontoise? What's the best way to get into Paris?

Thanks for any advice!

[Pace]

I usually fly in there IFR so maybe someone else can advise on VFR flights?
As for the airfield they are all very friendly and your best way in is on the train from Pontoise which itself is a taxi ride from the airfield.
Otherwise if your cash rich a taxi will take you all the way in.
Of all the Parisienne airfields Pontoise is probably the easiest airspace wise.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

You are very unlikely to get any service out of Paris North. I don't know your intended route but if you are transiting towards L2K for a short crossing you will get a good service from Lille and then direct to Pointoise or Beauvais.

You will get a traffic service from both or a basic service as you wish.

You dont say where you are coming from and whether you are transiting Olympic airspace, but obviously if no transit is involved as usual you just need to file a FP through any of the the usual FPing services. No "slots" are required and normally the plan can be filed and accepted as short as half an hour before the flight for VFR. Obviously if your airport is operating international slots during the Games then you will know that and proceed accordingly.

Personally I would never go to Pointoise for Paris. It is a pain to get into the City (by any means). I always recommend Lognes and have had a number of pilots who were thinking Pointoise or had been to Pointoise before, thank me for the suggestion. I never know why Lognes is not considered more often. Its really friendly and geared to the lighter end of GA. Its on the direct railtrack to Guard du Nord; you can walk to the station or a very short taxi ride and the trains are very regular. You do need to think about fuel as its fuel card or cash and you also need to think about the airspace under Charle de G but that's easy just stay below 1,000 feet inbound. I think Lognes is still Customs by arrangement but if not a quick stop at Lille is a good bet (or L2K) - Lille is cheaper if you are saving pennies and adds a little "big airport" experience (just say it is a training flight and / or you are annexed to a flying club and its about 12E.

Enjoy.

PS - there is a clean and cheap hotel at Lognes airport and a better selection very close and a good restaurant. Lognes is a bit of a dive but you cant have everything.

PPS - Pointoise is fine, but if you are going to go to Paris I would strongly recommend giving it a miss!

[Fuji Abound]

PPPS

Just checked the AIP for Lognes in case it is any help and they no longer indicate customs even by arrangement so a quick stop en route will be needed. The AIP does indicate credit cards but I would check by ' phone before to be sure.

[Jan Olieslagers]

According to Navigeo (Navigeo - Consultation du terrain LFPL - Lognes Emerainville (http://navigeo.org/LFPL)) it is cash or cheque or the Total card.
Also says the R/T is French only.

[Jodelman]

According to the AIP it's French only outside ATC hours. Indeed, every time I have been there during ATC hours they have spoken perfect English.

Incidently, it's a 30/35 minute walk to the station so not a good idea if you are carrying much luggage.

[peterh337]

No more Customs at Pontoise (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/pontoise/index.html) so it's a no-go from/to the UK, on a direct flight.

Incredibly stupid of the French to do that, and all the others :ugh:

Not that Pontoise was much good for Paris anyway - it's a long way. Probably like Biggin Hill for "London" :)

[Fuji Abound]

Always English for me at Lognes and very good English to. Not that French is too much of a problem.

Well the AIP definitely says credit cards but as I said I would check - or better still fill up before leaving or at L2K or Lille. (both bowser) - its pumps at Lognes. Even better still depending where you are coming from full tanks should comfortably get you there and back - its not far. ;)

Yes it is a reasonable walk to the station and not particularly scenic - a taxi is much better but dont try and get a taxi around lunch time!

Do let us know what you decide to do please.

Jan - never believe the AIP, much better to hear from those who have been. ;)

[M-ONGO]

The last time I went to France I met a Frenchman. I shall not be going back..

Joking aside, Meaux was always a user friendly airport for Paris and Eurodisney.

[Jan Olieslagers]

never believe the AIP, much better to hear from those who have been

Others will say "never believe anything you read on an internet forum"...
I thought navigeo.fr a fair compromise, but if I were to fly there myself I'd still write e-mail a week or so before, and call them the day before the flight if the mail got no answer.

[john ball]

The last two times I have been to Paris, I have flown direct from Biggin to Toussus. Very short taxi to station then quick train to Paris or very close to Versailles if you want to visit.

[Fuji Abound]

Jan - true, very true.

You have to know who to trust. ;)

Even then worth a quick 'phone call to get it from the horses mouth (so to speak).

Regards

[November Charlie]

Thanks for all the replies. it's a shame that Pontoise has lost its Douanes but it was a bit far out.

Lognes looks good but it's the wrong side of Paris for me (I'll be routing SFD-DPE) so it's a bit of a detour.

I like the sound of Toussus but the airspace around there looks an absolute nightmare. Any tips on routing and heights if I went there?

[Johnm]

I haven't been to Toussus for a couple of years but I seem to remember it wasn't much of an issue as long as you stayed below the Paris TMA which is pretty clear from the charts. There is a NDB and VOR near the VRPs and so it's fairly easy to route in (and out).

The customs situation around Paris is very confused at present with EU documentation having Lognes listed as customs port of entry but neither Pontoise nor Toussus. I'm not sure what documentation I'd rely on and it's questionable whether a change of status would appear in NOTAMs, so best contact them direct I should think.

[peterh337]

Toussus has also lost Customs.

Regarding getting info and where from: my view is that "anywhere" is OK for getting contact details for phone, fax, email etc and actually googling for the airport website is the best way :)

For actual information, always contact the airport directly.

The exceptions to the above are

- where the airport is a big H24 one, e.g. Prague, in which case you just get airport notams, file and go, and take any mandatory handling on the chin :)

- where you are absolutely desperate to go there and are willing (and able, in terms of fuel etc) to take a chance on being diverted elsewhere when you turn up

- in Greece, airports routinely notam operational details (opening hours etc) because everybody knows their AIP is crap and nobody reads it (it wasn't online till a few months ago), but then I find one can always find somebody who speaks English

For me, generally, no direct contact = no flying there (exception: a local pilot known to me has phoned them up and got all the info :) ).

[Fuji Abound]

Nov charlie you might be surprised if you do the numbers that it is much less of a detour than you think particularly if you are coasting out at sfd. Given the extra time getting into paris (and cost) i bet it will be almost as quick and cheaper. Also where else would you stop for customs with l2k and better still lille being easy cheap options.

Toussus is easy and the airspace actually isnt daunting but looks it. Plan logically and it will fall into place or let us know if not. I have not done it but i gather its not great for getting into paris but others will know better whats involved.

[werewolf]

" When I cross into the French FIR, who do I speak to? "
Only one answer for VFR traffic : to LILLE INFO 120.275 MHz
Please look at the SIV charts (SIV = Service d'Information en Vol = FIS)
> go to : Actualités (http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.fr/dia/)
DIRCAM internet site (French Services)
>> on the left side : A VUE FRANCE
>>> Cartes des SIV (wait uploading and scroll down)
( http://www.dircam.air.defense.gouv.fr/dia/images/stories/VAC_CIVIL/VAC_SIV_1.1.pdf )
You could check this frequency on Lille LFQQ VAC chart.
Hope that helps !

[betterfromabove]

Of all the Paris airfields, the one with the easiest and quickest public transport links is St Cyr L'Ecole, but it's certainly about as challenging as it gets in terms of surrounding airspace and local procedures. Requires a full briefing from someone in the know and a good session with Google Earth to prepare. Hence why see almost no foreign aircraft there, although their circuit often gets busted (scarily so...) by non-F-reg regularly in Summer.

Toussus nearby is a good choice too logistically, with taxi or bus to nearest RER. However,local procedures are again strict (picture plods with binos checking out your circuits, I kid you not...), although probably not an issue with G-reg inbound on wider joins.

Agree all that's been said on Pontoise, Lognes and Meaux. If was coming in from over the Channel, especially for first time, I'd make my life easy and head to one of the fields to the E/NE and keep away from trouble might get into trying to head round to SW.

If needing to head to SW corner of Paris, I'd try and get in touch with someone at one of the clubs/ATC at the airfields and get all the relevent diagrams.

[SP-THC]

I am planning "Z" flight plan from Poland to Paris, Lognes LFPL,
in case of bad weather - does anybody know reasonable IFR alternative for Lognes? I thought about Le Bourget but it may be expensive?

[Fuji Abound]

The cheapest and probably easiest is Lille. If you need to get to Paris its still easy on the train and no problem leaving the aircraft at Lille. Lille is very cheap and very friendly. Its also not far for a diversion and I guess you will know whether you are likely to make a visual arrival in good time before.

You will he held down below the CdG TMA well before Lognes so you will need to work out a let down anyway if above an undercast. Problems will arise if the undercast goes down to not much above 1,000 feet by which time unless it is local I suspect Lille will seem an attractive option. If its a bit above then with a descent to the east VMC below will work fine.

Reminds me of happy days stuck on the ground at Lognes with less than 400 feet for a solid twenty four hours. I well recall our thinking about an IFR departure but my friend ended up going commercial from CdG. He reckoned it was one of the worst flights he had ever had the turbulence was really unpleasant. They were indeed happy days to have stayed on the ground. The next day we did the channel in formation with a Yak, arriving into almost as miserable weather in the UK, but without the turbulence thank goodness. Nearly required a diversion mind you. I still remember going up the Eiffel tower while we were waiting for the weather, got less than half way up and we couldn't see a thing.

[SP-THC]

Thank you Fuji; do you also maybe know LFOQ and LFPM airports? (they would be more convenient for our final destination) - on aeroport.fr they say they are open to GA and have avgass - but do you maybe have been there?

[Keef]

I've been to Toussus several times. I usually walk to the RER and take the train into Paris, but there are taxis if you are patient.

Flying in is not a problem if you have the Paris area chart and the Toussus plate. Watch out for the "no fly" times.

The procedure used to be "overhead Rambouillet VOR" but that is now NOT advised.

Coming from the UK, talk to Lille who will look after you well. Clear customs at Le Touquet or Lille - there are none at Toussus nowadays.

[peterh337]

Does't stop bizjets going direct to Toussus from Biggin Hill - according to the departures board there ;)

According to a Citation pilot I know (non UK) anything can be arranged if the client pays. He didn't know the fee but thought it would be several hundred €.

[Sam Rutherford]

For Paris, I use St.Cyr - great airfield and very easy to then get into the city. The surrounding airspace is busy, but nothing too complicated.

From the UK, the trick is to file to Rouen (for your PPR Customs), then once you are talking to TWR ask if they are there. If not, ask him (nicely, ideally in French) if you can just fly through the overhead and for him to close the flight plan for you.

Generally they are not there, and the answer is 'bien sur" - so no landing, fees, time lost etc. The flightplan is closed, continue to wherever you want in France... :ok:

"If you don't ask..."

Cheers, Sam.

[peterh337]

Last time I looked, Rouen lost its Customs too. Have they managed to revoke this?

Your suggested tactic is a good one but IMHO one needs to be judicious in its use. I mention a variant of it here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/operational/index.html). In fact I planned to use it on a trip to France which I cancelled this morning, to return to the UK from a certain "no longer Customs" airport halfway down France, by filing for e.g. LFAT and then diverting. This is IMHO impossible to question afterwards because you can say you did it due wx or whatever. Anyway, nobody seems to care re exit Customs; not even the Greeks. But I would not do it going into France (or some other country) because you then have to lie about your departure airport, which is, ahem, for those with balls of solid brass. The d1ckhe*d appearing on the bottom of page 1 here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/503/Prosecutions%201st%20April%202009%20-%2031st%20March%202010.pdf) did that, among other things, into Switzerland. I am just happy that he did not do it in an N-reg; not the sort of thing GA needs, really....

It is better to do a touch and go to get into Schengen, but you need the co-operation of somebody in the tower :)

I wonder how long it will be before the French realise how they have shafted some high net worth tourist trade :ugh: Even Courchevel lost its Customs.

[patowalker]

I wonder how long it will be before the French realise how they have shafted some high net worth tourist trade :ugh:

HNW tourist trade, from the UK? You're joking. Name a destination in France affected by the loss of Customs at their local airfield.

Trips for lunch on the Quai Henri IV at Dieppe don't count. :)

[peterh337]

You evidently don't revolve in the right company :)

I know a man who had a little plane (like mine). Without selling it, he bought a TBM700. Without selling that he bought a new TBM850.

He quite liked flying to Courchevel, and other places.

I can understand the rationale behind dropping "Customs PNR" from some sleepy airport in middle-east-ish flat-country France (even that is faulty because Customs virtually never turned up anyway so the cost was close to nil) but Courchevel?

One possible explanation for what the French did is that the Customs setup there was really a massive scam, like what Fleet Street used to run in the 1970s (with an individual appearing on the payroll under multiple names, and the unions were so powerful that the Inland Revenue gave them an amnesty), and the only way the French Govt was able to deal with it was by Maggie-sized chops.

[patowalker]

Courchevel? Even if you friend had a mountain rating, I bet there are not many UK pilots that do. That's why I think the economic impact is negligible.

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier%5Caicfrancea%5CAIC_A_2007_23_EN.pdf

Anyway, I would not be surprised if Hollande reverses the decisions on some aerodromes and does not go through with the plan to reduce Customs facilities even further.

[Fuji Abound]

The impact in the round must be miniscule. How many private flights are there into courchevel in a season from the uk? Never the less for those of us that enjoy trips to france it is nuisance and doubtless in consequence some will go less or not at all. I hope the french reconsider.

[patowalker]

I hope the french reconsider.

There are signs that they already have. Calais and Abbeville, for example, are claiming the plan to strip them of Customs during the latter half of this year will not be implemented.

However, this probably has more to do with (local) political pressure, than sound economic policy. After all, the hordes of UK microlighters who will descend on Abbeville next weekend on their journeys to and from the Blois show, normally only spend their euros on fuel and a snack. :)

[Sam Rutherford]

Rouen was still PPR Customs as of last Wednesday...

[peterh337]

Is that actually or in the AIP?

The French AIP currently lists Customs for airports which have lost them.

[patowalker]

Yes, but loss of Customs is Notamed. At least in those I have checked.

[HyFlyer]

That Pontoise (as the third largest airport for private and business aviation in the Paris region) no longer has customs is a loony decision only a truly idiotic French government could make. In addition,. to double down on the stupidity LFPM - Paris Villaroche (Melun) the 2nd largest airport for business are in the entire Ile de France region also lost it's customs. So you now have pretty much a monopoly situation for anything bigger than a PC12 of Le Bourget.

Interesting, so why would a major World capital city restrict access for the business aviation class to a single airport, when they have two other good airports at diametrically opposite sides of the capital city and offering under 1 hour road access into the centre.?

Could it be the C word? Is there an inherent corruption in the system one wonders. ADO, a private company has the monopoly of traffic. So why would the government favour a private entity over a state owned entity (LFPM) ? It makes no sense unless you see the way senior staff move freely between private entity and State employment and the friendships and back slapping and no down brown envelopes under the table for all this. Anyway, that's an opinion...it ties in with the know facts....but isn't backed with any formal proof of course.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The suspicion might well be correct, and if so will be impossible to prove, of course.
But what's the use of reviving this thread after a full twelve years?

Anyway, for visiting Paris from most European countries the High Speed Train is to be preferred over any aeroplane, private or public. Making the point slightly moot.