PPL Instructors flying into cloud?

[Krallu]

Hi there!

During PPL course you should have some hours training IMC conditions mostly via IFR googles or similar device that takes your view away from the outside and you only use the instruments for flying.

Occasionally I've heard that PPL instructors have taken the student into a real cloud because you learn very much from such an experience. It is even more difficult to fly in a real IMC condition and you get the false feelings in your body of the airplanes attitude more in a real cloud.

There is no doubt that it is a good experience to experience a real cloud. But how can they do this legally? I can understand if you file an IFR flightplan and request a training area clearence but I know instructors who have taken non IFR approved aircraft into clouds during VFR operations.

Is there some rule I don't know about that supports this, or are they bending the rule slightly to the favor of the student to experience a real cloud?

How common is this?

[sketchy]

My instructor took me into cloud a couple of days ago. We were just doing some general handling and when heading back to the airfield we encountered cloud, I was naturally trying to avoid it however they said not to worry and we went straight though. No idea about the legality of it, at the time I assumed it was totally illegal.

[Aware]

Quite legal in UK for IFR flight in cloud outside controlled airspace, as long as Instructor has an IF qualification. Not sure about Sweden. I do with students to let them experience the disorientated effects, try and get radar cover if possible. Most students lose the picture after about 20 or so seconds, unless they are flight simers who do much better.

The student should be able to do a 180 degree turn on instruments to get themselves out of the cloud, they will be tested to do this on the skill test.

[foxmoth]

Maybe the rules are different where you are, but in the UK, if the instructor is suitably qualified (IMC rating or IR) and you are outside CAS this is totally legal. I would question the bit about it being harder to fly in real conditions, to me, the worst are goggles (foggles), as you get peripheral glimpses that make it harder.

[Aware]

I would add it is also better to brief the student you are going to demonstate this rather than just plodding in to cloud. The foggles are not as good as they are uncomfortable as said, but you can see past them sometimes. Hence the saying a peep is worth a thousand scans.

[Krallu]

Ok, you are saying it is legal if you hold an IR rating of some kind.

But how can you maintain separation to other aircraft? Lets say another IFR pilot comes flying past this cloud or another instructor from another place are doing the same excersise in the same cloud in uncontrolled airspace.

You could end up in a midair collision? Couldnt you?

[mad_jock]

Its a huge sky and most other people avoid flying in clouds.

And you can fly into clouds in controlled airspace as well its just that you have to tell the controller before you do it.

There are more mid air collisions in VMC than there are in IMC. You could actually argue that it is safer flying in clouds than outside them from having a mid air point of view.

Personally when operating in class G a solid cloud base at 600ft and viz 1000m with a freezing level of 2000ft means I have less to worry about in respect to having a mid air than when the wx is CAVOK.

[foxmoth]

You could end up in a midair collision? Couldnt you?

Yes, but, just because you are outside CAS does not mean you cannot have some sort of radar cover, though this would be advisory only, even without that, the chance of collision are VERY low as the number of pilots who do this are far less than flying in VMC, and how many do you take avoiding action for then? It does make sense to avoid "choke" points such as a VOR that others in IMC would be using to nav to, though this is not as bad with GPS now so common.

[Fostex]

In theory yes, in practice no. I don't have statistics but I don't recall any air-air collisions between aircraft in IFR outside controlled in the UK as long as I can remember. In other countries in the EU ( Germany springs to mind ) IFR outside controlled is a big no no.

It is fine for an instructor to take a student into cloud provided they have their IR and they are doing so in an aircraft certified for IFR flight.

[Krallu]

Yes of course. I hear you. Pure statisticly there is lower chance of hitting someone in the cloud.

But though it is so it could happen and using only the argument "there is such a small risk" as a sole argument for just going into a cloud it doesnt sound good. When you least expect it, then it will happen.

It is similiar to arguments, it will never happen to me.

For me it sounds better to get radar coverage and flight advisory information for the area.

[Krallu]

In Sweden IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace is legal but it is mandatory to have radio contact with area control for flight information to get separation from other IFR flights.

[Fostex]

You are much much more likely to have a collision flying VFR in the circuit than IFR out in Class G.

But yeah, if you can get a deconfliction/traffic service then you'd be a fool not to. ATC are there for a reason.

[Krallu]

In Sweden there is also like this.

To fly in IMC conditions you can only do on IFR rules. And to fly IFR rules it is mandatory to file an IFR flightplan.

So me reading this it sounds like you can't fly legally in IMC conditions unless you fly on an IFR flightplan.

[foxmoth]

IFR , yes, but flight plan not required in the UK as long as outside CAS.

[CS-DDO]

I used to do that often with students on an early stage of instruction, both PPL and CPL, so that they could experience the complete lack of outside references you get inside clouds, but obviously taking precautions ( small clouds, radar coverage, good clearance from terrain, no reported traffic, etc...) didn't care much about the legality as i'm talking about a momentarily passage trough cloud, not an IFR navigation...

I allways prefer that they live this potentially dangerous situations and learned from them them with me first, rather than having a surprise flying solo...

[Krallu]

So what you are saying is that in UK you can fly a whole IFR flight in IMC to a destination without a flightplan as long as you are outside controlled airspace??

[foxmoth]

Yes, that is what our IMC rating is designed for.:ok:

[Fostex]

Quite correct, no flight plan required although it is good airmanship to file one.

See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf Section 2.1

[mad_jock]

When they say controlled airspace they are only talking about the airways system of class A.

You can pitch up outside a TMA or class D zone and then request a IFR clearance across. You might be told to sod off mind but you can still do it.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Many years ago now but I was flying through cloud at a very early stage in PPL training and several of my initial handling exercises were done VFR on top, having climbed up through a couple of thousand feet of solid IMC. I found the smooth air & well defined horizon actually made it easier in those early days.

On my PPL GFT, my examiner asked me to put on the hood for the instrument handling check. Having done a few turns & a recovery from an unusual atttitude, he told me to take it off - and he'd left me right in the middle of a big cloud! Sneaky.

[RTN11]

Many years ago now but I was flying through cloud at a very early stage in PPL training and several of my initial handling exercises were done VFR on top, having climbed up through a couple of thousand feet of solid IMC.

This works very well, but these days it is hard to justify the extra cost of climbing to 4-5000' before you can even start a lesson on say straight and level or climibg and desending. At £180/hr at most schools, you're looking at £40 just to start the lesson, not to mention the time it takes to fly an instrument approach to get back down again.

In terms of covering ex19, I would not hesitate to put someone into a real cloud. With screens or foggles, you still get some peripheral vision. If you have the screens up and then fly into actual IMC, there is a noticable difference in how the student controls the aircraft, and the "leans" will occour much more often. A much better lesson for the student to learn in a safe environment. I find teaching with the screens or foggles can give a false sense that it is actually quite easy flying in cloud, and the rare cocky student could go off and do it on their own on purpose thinking they can handle it.

[BEagle]

it is hard to justify the extra cost of climbing to 4-5000' before you can even start a lesson on say straight and level

So would you sooner bounce around with no decent horizon against which to teach attitude flying, or nip up through the clouds to use a clear horizon and smooth air? The chances are that the student would learn nothing from the first option, but would pick it up very quickly above cloud.

Why fly an instrument approach? A quick radar to visual or spiral down through a hole to VMC will do.

Although I did find that a lot of PPL FIs weren't that all that keen on 'real' IF used practically....:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

Personally when operating in class G a solid cloud base at 600ft and viz 1000m with a freezing level of 2000ft means I have less to worry about in respect to having a mid air than when the wx is CAVOK.

But in those circumstances, Class G traffic will be concentrated into a shallow band of airspace. Much of what is flying will be just below 2,000 ft, if the local MSA allows this to be done.

I know that as well as getting a radar service where available, you will use your transponder with Mode C selected. Everyone else please do the same. TCAS/TAS equipped aircraft will have a far better chance of arranging to avoid you, possibly without you even knowing they were there.

[OneIn60rule]

Every time.

If I have a current I.R. I will take my students into cloud for ex 19.

Failing that I will use foggles.

[TheOddOne]

So would you sooner bounce around with no decent horizon against which to teach attitude flying, or nip up through the clouds to use a clear horizon and smooth air? The chances are that the student would learn nothing from the first option, but would pick it up very quickly above cloud.

Exactly, BEagle, couldn't agree more. When I was doing my CPL course in the late 80's I was taken to 7,000' , beautiful horizon and spent an hour polishing stall recoveries. We shared the sky with a Hunter from Boscombe Down going vertically a few miles away, sheer magic. Later the recovery back to base meant a diversion to Henstridge, lots of good learning there, too, so as a paying student I thought I got more than my money's worth.

Many years later, as a FI, I will use my IMC rating to get a student through weather to a good training area and will as much as possible use cloud for ex 19, in fact I think current thinking is to encourage this.

The Odd One

[Sillert,V.I.]

...so as a paying student I thought I got more than my money's worth.

That's what I thought at the time, too. Though I had to pay to fly up & down through a few thousand feet of cloud, I was handling the airplane throughout & learned to deal with & respect weather from day one. I had to drive a long way to the airfield back then & it meant I got to fly on days when most of the students from other schools stayed on the ground. We'd usually fly a double sortie, which reduced the burden of spending ten minutes or so positioning at each end of the flight.

The only downside, which dogged my later training, was that I spent far too much time looking inside the cockpit & to this day, my lookout isn't always all that it should be.

[Winhern]

Foggles are not the same - you need to fly in cloud to counter the fear factor. One of my most valuable lessons as a PPL occurred when a x country navex was cancelled because a front came in early. My instructor agreed to do a couple of real low level circuits since the cloud base was now 500' AGL. I ended up climbing into cloud by mistake on the first downwind leg. Whilst able to keep the plane level & descend, it was an alarming experience. The second circuit was much better. I'm glad my first and only experience of this was with a trusted instructor in the RH seat. I will definitely be much more relaxed if it happens for real.

[pulse1]

For my GFT the cloud base was too low for the upper air work so the examiner made me climb through about 2000' of cloud to VMC on top. Of course I then had to descend back through it. As I popped out underneath at about 1700' I was thinking that went quite well and he chopped the power for the PFL.

One thing puzzled me. How did he know where we were. The C152 had no navaids at all, apart from a DI and compass of course.

[foxmoth]

One thing puzzled me. How did he know where we were. The C152 had no navaids at all, apart from a DI and compass of course.


Not hard if you know the area, the easy way is to do half in one direction then turn round and do the rest the other way, add a bit for the into wind direction (20 kts of wind for 20 mins means 12 mins into wind and 8 downwind) and you will be near enough where you started, it will not be exact, but near enough if you know the area, even adding in a couple of steep turns.

[Cobalt]

... and if is not uniform, you can fly the "cloudscape" for quite some time, for example you can pick one conspicuous cloud and use it as your anchor point - it will broadly be moving with the wind at that altitude.

And if there are power stations with cooling tower plumes in the area which punch a bit through the cloud layer - these are stationary and make great landmarks.