PPL Instructors flying into cloud?
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PPL Instructors flying into cloud?
Hi there!
During PPL course you should have some hours training IMC conditions mostly via IFR googles or similar device that takes your view away from the outside and you only use the instruments for flying.
Occasionally I've heard that PPL instructors have taken the student into a real cloud because you learn very much from such an experience. It is even more difficult to fly in a real IMC condition and you get the false feelings in your body of the airplanes attitude more in a real cloud.
There is no doubt that it is a good experience to experience a real cloud. But how can they do this legally? I can understand if you file an IFR flightplan and request a training area clearence but I know instructors who have taken non IFR approved aircraft into clouds during VFR operations.
Is there some rule I don't know about that supports this, or are they bending the rule slightly to the favor of the student to experience a real cloud?
How common is this?
During PPL course you should have some hours training IMC conditions mostly via IFR googles or similar device that takes your view away from the outside and you only use the instruments for flying.
Occasionally I've heard that PPL instructors have taken the student into a real cloud because you learn very much from such an experience. It is even more difficult to fly in a real IMC condition and you get the false feelings in your body of the airplanes attitude more in a real cloud.
There is no doubt that it is a good experience to experience a real cloud. But how can they do this legally? I can understand if you file an IFR flightplan and request a training area clearence but I know instructors who have taken non IFR approved aircraft into clouds during VFR operations.
Is there some rule I don't know about that supports this, or are they bending the rule slightly to the favor of the student to experience a real cloud?
How common is this?
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My instructor took me into cloud a couple of days ago. We were just doing some general handling and when heading back to the airfield we encountered cloud, I was naturally trying to avoid it however they said not to worry and we went straight though. No idea about the legality of it, at the time I assumed it was totally illegal.
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Quite legal in UK for IFR flight in cloud outside controlled airspace, as long as Instructor has an IF qualification. Not sure about Sweden. I do with students to let them experience the disorientated effects, try and get radar cover if possible. Most students lose the picture after about 20 or so seconds, unless they are flight simers who do much better.
The student should be able to do a 180 degree turn on instruments to get themselves out of the cloud, they will be tested to do this on the skill test.
The student should be able to do a 180 degree turn on instruments to get themselves out of the cloud, they will be tested to do this on the skill test.
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Maybe the rules are different where you are, but in the UK, if the instructor is suitably qualified (IMC rating or IR) and you are outside CAS this is totally legal. I would question the bit about it being harder to fly in real conditions, to me, the worst are goggles (foggles), as you get peripheral glimpses that make it harder.
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I would add it is also better to brief the student you are going to demonstate this rather than just plodding in to cloud. The foggles are not as good as they are uncomfortable as said, but you can see past them sometimes. Hence the saying a peep is worth a thousand scans.
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Ok, you are saying it is legal if you hold an IR rating of some kind.
But how can you maintain separation to other aircraft? Lets say another IFR pilot comes flying past this cloud or another instructor from another place are doing the same excersise in the same cloud in uncontrolled airspace.
You could end up in a midair collision? Couldnt you?
But how can you maintain separation to other aircraft? Lets say another IFR pilot comes flying past this cloud or another instructor from another place are doing the same excersise in the same cloud in uncontrolled airspace.
You could end up in a midair collision? Couldnt you?
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Its a huge sky and most other people avoid flying in clouds.
And you can fly into clouds in controlled airspace as well its just that you have to tell the controller before you do it.
There are more mid air collisions in VMC than there are in IMC. You could actually argue that it is safer flying in clouds than outside them from having a mid air point of view.
Personally when operating in class G a solid cloud base at 600ft and viz 1000m with a freezing level of 2000ft means I have less to worry about in respect to having a mid air than when the wx is CAVOK.
And you can fly into clouds in controlled airspace as well its just that you have to tell the controller before you do it.
There are more mid air collisions in VMC than there are in IMC. You could actually argue that it is safer flying in clouds than outside them from having a mid air point of view.
Personally when operating in class G a solid cloud base at 600ft and viz 1000m with a freezing level of 2000ft means I have less to worry about in respect to having a mid air than when the wx is CAVOK.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:41.
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You could end up in a midair collision? Couldnt you?
In theory yes, in practice no. I don't have statistics but I don't recall any air-air collisions between aircraft in IFR outside controlled in the UK as long as I can remember. In other countries in the EU ( Germany springs to mind ) IFR outside controlled is a big no no.
It is fine for an instructor to take a student into cloud provided they have their IR and they are doing so in an aircraft certified for IFR flight.
It is fine for an instructor to take a student into cloud provided they have their IR and they are doing so in an aircraft certified for IFR flight.
Last edited by Fostex; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:40.
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Yes of course. I hear you. Pure statisticly there is lower chance of hitting someone in the cloud.
But though it is so it could happen and using only the argument "there is such a small risk" as a sole argument for just going into a cloud it doesnt sound good. When you least expect it, then it will happen.
It is similiar to arguments, it will never happen to me.
For me it sounds better to get radar coverage and flight advisory information for the area.
But though it is so it could happen and using only the argument "there is such a small risk" as a sole argument for just going into a cloud it doesnt sound good. When you least expect it, then it will happen.
It is similiar to arguments, it will never happen to me.
For me it sounds better to get radar coverage and flight advisory information for the area.
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In Sweden IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace is legal but it is mandatory to have radio contact with area control for flight information to get separation from other IFR flights.
You are much much more likely to have a collision flying VFR in the circuit than IFR out in Class G.
But yeah, if you can get a deconfliction/traffic service then you'd be a fool not to. ATC are there for a reason.
But yeah, if you can get a deconfliction/traffic service then you'd be a fool not to. ATC are there for a reason.
Last edited by Fostex; 1st Jun 2012 at 08:47.
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In Sweden there is also like this.
To fly in IMC conditions you can only do on IFR rules. And to fly IFR rules it is mandatory to file an IFR flightplan.
So me reading this it sounds like you can't fly legally in IMC conditions unless you fly on an IFR flightplan.
To fly in IMC conditions you can only do on IFR rules. And to fly IFR rules it is mandatory to file an IFR flightplan.
So me reading this it sounds like you can't fly legally in IMC conditions unless you fly on an IFR flightplan.
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I used to do that often with students on an early stage of instruction, both PPL and CPL, so that they could experience the complete lack of outside references you get inside clouds, but obviously taking precautions ( small clouds, radar coverage, good clearance from terrain, no reported traffic, etc...) didn't care much about the legality as i'm talking about a momentarily passage trough cloud, not an IFR navigation...
I allways prefer that they live this potentially dangerous situations and learned from them them with me first, rather than having a surprise flying solo...
I allways prefer that they live this potentially dangerous situations and learned from them them with me first, rather than having a surprise flying solo...
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So what you are saying is that in UK you can fly a whole IFR flight in IMC to a destination without a flightplan as long as you are outside controlled airspace??
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When they say controlled airspace they are only talking about the airways system of class A.
You can pitch up outside a TMA or class D zone and then request a IFR clearance across. You might be told to sod off mind but you can still do it.
You can pitch up outside a TMA or class D zone and then request a IFR clearance across. You might be told to sod off mind but you can still do it.
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Many years ago now but I was flying through cloud at a very early stage in PPL training and several of my initial handling exercises were done VFR on top, having climbed up through a couple of thousand feet of solid IMC. I found the smooth air & well defined horizon actually made it easier in those early days.
On my PPL GFT, my examiner asked me to put on the hood for the instrument handling check. Having done a few turns & a recovery from an unusual atttitude, he told me to take it off - and he'd left me right in the middle of a big cloud! Sneaky.
On my PPL GFT, my examiner asked me to put on the hood for the instrument handling check. Having done a few turns & a recovery from an unusual atttitude, he told me to take it off - and he'd left me right in the middle of a big cloud! Sneaky.