Ready for departure

[taxistaxing]

Hi all,

At the radio field I fly from, it's accepted practice to call "ready for departure " at the holding point. The a/g operator can then read back known traffic and winds. Next call is usually "lining up". A stopway is available for departing traffic, only accessible by entering the active and backtracking.

Today, due to full fuel and a (cough) large passenger, I decided to backtrack, announced I was "ready for departure" at the holding point as usual and then called "backtracking 02". I was then admonished by the a/g operator who said "if you wanted to backtrack you weren't ready for departure". I had always understood that ready for departure is the correct call to give before entering the active runway - I then announced I was backtracking for the benefit of downwind traffic. Wouldnt have thought it was necessary to announce this prior to entering the active at a field where the decision to enter the runway was entirely at my discretion, and the radio operator cannot give instructions anyway? Happy to be corrected on this of course! Would appreciate people's peoples' views!

[chevvron]

Well I suppose you could have said 'full length departure' but with A/G it's not essential. Did you inconvenience anyone by backtracking? If not, the radio operator,(who isn't required to even see the runway) seems to have exceded his authority. If he's got a 'beef' then he should fill in an incident report, not b0ll0ck you so everyone else hears.

[Talkdownman]

it's accepted practice to call "ready for departure " at the holding point
Why bother? Why not just lookout, ensure that there is no conflicting traffic, then announce 'entering runway XX for backtrack and departure' ? AGCS operators are not permitted to regulate runway occupancy. As chevvron says, it seems to me that your AGCS operator exceeded his/her authority.

[Glamdring]

Just to be slightly pedantic, what you describe is a "Starter Extension" not a "Stopway" :ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

if the Pedantic was Elsree of old then I would understand...Skull talk.

glf

[Piltdown Man]

Ready for departure means times the majority of time consuming actions and checks which would delay an immediate departure have been completed. It was also reasonable for you announce that you were about to backtrack because in doing so your movement adds to the A/G station's knowledge of known traffic. But if you have any more conflict the next time you go flying you might want to tell the A/G operator about a marvellous little publication called CAP 413 (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=caa%20cap%20413&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caa.co.uk%2Fdocs%2F33%2FCAP413.pdf&ei=x2SvT8PCL8bA0QW0_NGZCQ&usg=AFQjCNFbSmLUU7c3fQrzMOc2-OTsjlpJyQ&sig2=zwKtSDrZTWLugBpPCaNZpg). It's all about radio phraseology and if they look in Chapter 4, page 7 they'll see what "Ready for departure" means. But the bit that should really concern you when next fly from your airfield is Chapter 4, page 32 onwards - the section about Air/Ground radio.

PM

[taxistaxing]

Thanks for the replies so far. The aerodrome in question is busy with a variety of ex mil types and warbirds, which I think is why more calls than usual are expected. That seems sensible enough to me - I suppose my concern was that being b0llocked by the operator for not announcing I was going to backtrack when calling ready seemed to imply his response might have been different if I had - when in fact all he could do was tell me about the downwind traffic I already knew about (which hadn't even called final when I lined up). There's generally a culture of pilots incorrectly calling up to "request taxi" etc. which as a low hours ppl myself makes it quite a confusing environment to operate in!

The other a/g field I have experience of is Stapleford where the operators seem to say very little generally.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Your A/G operator is a twit - ignore their bad attitude, or take it up with them when you are back.

[Talkdownman]

The aerodrome in question
....is.......?

[taxistaxing]

I'll refrain from revealing the exact aerodrome, as it seems quite a tight-knit place and I don't want to name and shame in public (unlike the radio operator in question !!!) :ugh:

[chevvron]

I'm not saying it's the case here, but many people still assume that an FRTOL 'covers' you for AGCS. In fact it doesn't; you still need to possess a Certificate of Competence to operate an Air/Ground radio station which needs to be signed by the radio station licence holder, so maybe this guy hasn't got the requisite C of C?
I am an authorised examiner by the way, but this is always a bit of a 'grey' area.

[2 sheds]

...or to be more precise, was a slightly grey area until now!

2 s

[ATCO Two]

My guess is EGSX.

[taxistaxing]

okay okay - it's a good guess.

Generally seems a great field to fly from. Good mix of types, nice long runway.

I've only just revalidated my PPL - I was used to a tower field when I first learned which is obvioulsy a lot more disciplined and controlled then A/G. Had a bit of a scare a couple of weeks ago at the hold when someone landed the wrong way along the active runway - was mystified as to why I couldn't see him when he called final :rolleyes:

There's also model flying going on most weekends which I was surprised by - although to be fair they seem pretty well drilled and stay away from the active.

All part of the ongoing learning experience I suppose...

[chevvron]

I remember doing a couple of drag racing events there back in about '85. First time I got eliminated in the first round, second time I qualified but for some reason couldn't get the engine started for the first round of competition. Did Bitteswell twice that year too and posted my fastest ever time (Zip Kart with a 250cc Honda moto cross engine) of 12.78 seconds; the official world record then was 13.875!

[spekesoftly]

....I qualified but for some reason couldn't get the engine started .....

Ah, so "Not ready for departure" ;)

[Pull what]

The simple way of answering your own question is too ask yourself what statement would have been most beneficial statement to anyone else in the ATZ. There are quite a few calls that can help other pilots position and plan their circuit. Using common sense rather than a rule book is what situational awareness is about.

PS I agree with everyone about the A/G operator and his non standard call did nothing for anyone else in the ATZ or GA!

[sevenstrokeroll]

seperated by a common language.

as a YANK, I didn't really understand much...AG operator? departure?

I am guessing you are flying from an UNCONTROLLED FIELD using UNICOM or MULTICOM procedures AKA CTAF.

Departure is more a term used with an IFR clearance. I would say TAKEOFF...I might say, with a right standard departure.


I would say: SuperDuper123 taking off runway 31, back taxiing for full length


AT best I might hear...wind 320 at 7, reported traffic on the left downwind a tiger moth.

Be cool next time...let people know you plan to BACK TAXI as we call it...but I will tell you this...your AG operator is not a flight instructor or controller, so next time he says something you don't agree with just say:

You were blocked...say again

until he won't say it no more!

[Penny Washers]

Oddly enough, I have had a very similar issue at the airfield where I am based. This has an information service, and the controllers will frequently respond "report lined up," or sometimes "report lining up" when I report ready for departure.

Apart from possible confusion between the two phrases, does " lining up" apply as soon as you leave the hold , or only when you have reached the numbers and are pointing in approximately the right direction?

I was sufficiently concerned over this to take a look at the CAP, and if I understand it correctly, the only time you should be asked to report lined/ing up is when you are cleared to backtrack the runway. It is not a correct response to the call "ready for departure."

Can anyone out there state whether this is right?

[chevvron]

It's used to expedite traffic by allowing an aircraft at the holding point to line up when the runway is still occupied by another aircraft. A FISO cannot say 'line up and wait' as an ATCO can, so it's the next best thing, and is very useful when you have several in the circuit plus one or two departures.

[taxistaxing]

Penny Washers, have a look at Cap 410. Part B (at para 4) says that a FISO can give instructions to aircraft on a manoeuvring area, but these instructions are only valid up to the runway holding point. Thereafter the FISO becomes an information service only and cannot give instructions, but can request information as necessary to perform its function of:

"issuing information to aircraft flying in the aerodrome traffic zone to assist the
pilots in preventing collisions;"

This suggests you aren't required to "request" a backtrack at a FISO field as entry to the runway from the hold is at your discretion (as with a radio field), however the FISO can actively request information from you e.g. 'report lining up'. CAP 410 then also distinguishes between calls for 'entering the runway' and 'lining up' as two seperate calls which seems to make sense as you're not actually 'lined up' until you've reached the end of the runway and spun round.

This clearly differs from a radio which, as I understand it, cannot give instructions or request information under any circumstances and is essentially a passive listening only function, but which can pass details of known traffic and winds.

Happy to be corrected on this if it's wrong - the CAP docs are not the most concise!

[Talkdownman]

allowing an aircraft at the holding point to line up when the runway is still occupied by another aircraft
That is only any use if the airport operator will permit multiple occupancy of its runway... :rolleyes:

[TractorBoy]

okay okay - it's a good guess.

Generally seems a great field to fly from. Good mix of types, nice long runway.

I've only just revalidated my PPL - I was used to a tower field when I first learned which is obvioulsy a lot more disciplined and controlled then A/G. Had a bit of a scare a couple of weeks ago at the hold when someone landed the wrong way along the active runway - was mystified as to why I couldn't see him when he called final

There's also model flying going on most weekends which I was surprised by - although to be fair they seem pretty well drilled and stay away from the active.

All part of the ongoing learning experience I suppose...


I'm surprised to hear about your problem. I'm based at EGSX and quite often backtrack along the runway after announcing Ready for Departure at the hold. Never been bollocked yet. If I had, I'd go up the tower on my way out and discuss it.

Perhaps UV will be along soon and give us an EGSX tower view of your incident.

BTW - I think I have a horrible feeling I know the person in question regarding landing the wrong way. If it is who I think it is, he's a liability and I'll never fly with him. He was bad enough as a passenger.

[taxistaxing]

Yes, it would be good to hear the tower's perspective. If something similar happens I will probably say something. I'm now saying "ready for full length departure" to remove all doubt.

Re the "reversed" landing, the a/c in question was a pa28, if that means anything.