Self-build gliders: a question for the glider pilots

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

As we all know, there are numerous powered aeroplanes (many of them very good) that can either be bought in kit form or, for the purist, built direct from plans.

However I've never heard of gliders being built in this way, yet to me this seems to be an obvious possibility.

(Actually, there is an exception to this. When I was at London Gliding Club in the sixties they were building a thing called the 'Osprey'. As I recall, it took about twenty years to complete! Does anybody from LGC know what happened to this creation in the end. I seem to remember it did finally fly)?

Am I right in believing that kit-build and plan-build gliders are non-existent, and if so why has some form of home-build never appeared on the gliding scene?

Regards,

BP.

[Mechta]

There are four main reasons for the lack of homebuilt gliders in the UK:


There is no shortage of 'hangar queens' gathering dust and unused gliders sitting in trailers which can be had for a song. You only need to look on gliderpilot.net and eBay to find them. The vintage glider club provides support to people who keep the older machines flying.
Modern composite glider construction is not conducive to homebuilding from scratch, and if you are going for older wood or metal costruction, see 1 above.
The BGA has quite a rigourous airworthiness process which deters all but the more experienced aircraft engineers from attempting it.
If you are going to pay the insurance and storage costs for a glider, you would probably want a reasonably high performance one, and join a syndicate if you can't afford one outright. If you prefer going it alone you can get a hang glider which can be stored on the stairs (if you're single) or in the garage, or even a paraglider which you can keep on top of the wardrobe.


John Edgley, who designed the Optica, built a glider called the EA-9 Optimist, largely from folded honeycomb panels. It was displayed at the Farnborough airshow one year, and was later tested with eight model aircraft type electric motors for propulsion! Probably for the reasons above, it did not catch on.

http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsImages/edgley.jpg

http://www.retroplane.net/forum/files/optimist_195.pdf

Earlier there was the Manuel Wren? in the 50s or 60s, but I don't know much about it.

There are various self launching gliders which come under microlight & ultralight regulations. Ben Ashman's 'Flylight' company is the agent for one. See his Alatus,whcih is available as a pure glider or SSDR self launcher Flylight Airsports Ltd. - Gliding (http://www.flylight.co.uk/gliding/index.htm)

http://www.aerola.com.ua/tinymce/uploaded/GLIDER/25_1.JPG

There is a German plans builtdesign called the ULF-1, which weighs 70kg and can be foot launched with the pilot's legs going through 'bomb doors'. It can be found here: ULF-1 foot launched sailplane glider homebuilt aircraft plans (http://www.ulf-1.com/) and can be seen having an auto tow here (except that the 'auto' is a horse(!)) It looks as though it only has a front-mounted aerotow hook. A more rearward winch hook position might have got a better launch:
86rOfjhsIIM

In the USA there are various 'Airchair' designs, Mike Sandlin being one of the main proponents of them. These are primary glider style designs built largely from alumiunium and Dacron and intended for slope soaring (although one did a 60 mile cross country). Mike offers plans free on the internet if you would like to recreate one (at your own risk). In the UK you would probably still need to involve the BGA to get it in the air legally, as SSDR (single seat deregulated microlight) doesn't appear to cover unpowered aircraft and they are not foot launchable, so can't be classed as hang gliders. Basic Ultralight Glider (http://m-sandlin.info/)

http://m-sandlin.info/goat/FloatOff.jpg

[Prop swinger]

According to Wiki, a few AC-4s were built in Britain; I recall one of them experiencing flutter during a test flight & the pilot bailing out. Apparently kits are available again (http://www.glider.ru/en/glider/solo-4). Handicap of 85, the same as a Grob 102, so you can almost certainly buy better performance second hand for less than the cost of the kit.

The first HP-24 (http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24/) has just flown. He's pricing kits at US$30,000 (no trailer) & claiming an L/D of 42.

There's plenty of 'homebuilding' in the vintage scene.

I always fancied one of these (http://www.windex.se/Main.htm).

[mary meagher]

There are guys that build boats and guys that sail boats. Very seldom the same.

Likewise, there are those that build homebuilt aircraft, and then there are those who decide they would rather fly before declining into old age.....

Save money by building your own glider? not unless your time has no value at all.

[chrisN]

In the 1970’s, I met a German glider pilot who had built his own house as well as his own glider. The latter was not unknown in those days, but the former was far more unusual at least in the UK. It was a very impressive house.

He then told me it took fewer hours than the glider, an SB5 (V-tailed I thought mainly wood and fabric glider, but Wiki says "Structure GFK") which at the time was a fairly modern design.

Here is a video of an SB5 being launched:

Sb5e flying over yorkshire - YouTube

I expect the plans are still available, and it is as nice to fly now as it was then, but as stated above, you can now buy much better for less equivalent of time + money.

Possibly even for less money, with time at zero value.

It is just a different hobby from flying gliders, IMHO.

Chris N

[BroomstickPilot]

May I thank one and all for some extremely full and very interesting replies.

BP.
(Former pundit)

[Tankengine]

Look up the Concordia project for the ultimate homebuilt glider.:ok:

Concordia: One Photo A Day – May 1st (plus a few more) | Soaring Cafe (http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/concordia-one-photo-a-day/#1)

[astir 8]

The Jonkers brothers in South Africa could also once have been described as "homebuilders" but are now very professional.

The Akafliegs (university-based gliding research departments) in Germany could also be defined as non-factory based builders but as with the Concordia project shown previously they are all going to extraordinary lengths to produce "better" gliders than are commercially available. Nothing like a kit aircraft!

Some Germans have gone to enormous lengths to recreate examples of pre-war wooden gliders (e.g. the Habicht and Reiher III) which became extinct in 1945 but that's just an offshoot of the Vintage Glider moverment.

Past attempts at homebuilts in the UK were back in the days of wooden gliders - e.g. a few T21's and Swallows were homebuilt and some "kits" exported to Australia and New Zealand to save on shipping costs.

As others have correctly said, you can pick up vintage wooden gliders for next to nothing (in some cases free) and early glass gliders (1970's ish) for a few thousand, plus the paperwork alone on a home build would be a nightmare so why bother.

The Americans have done a few kits of glass gliders in the past because their domestic glider production is very poor and I think they can use the EAA "experimental" system relatively easily.

[Rod1]

Did the Europa motor glider ever get full approval?

Rod1

[Prop swinger]

Did the Europa motor glider ever get full approval?As of 18 Oct 2011 a prototype was still on a Permit Flight Release Certificate for spin testing (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/cms_resources/Europa%20XS%20%28prototype%20motorglider%29%20G-CBHI%2001-12.pdf).

[Pegpilot]

Anyone remember the story about 15 years ago about a Hong Kong based commercial pilot who built a glider in his apartment ? As I recall, on competion the wings had to be craned to the ground floor from his balcony, as he clearly wasn't going to get them in the lift....

Further detail on this tale must be out there somewhere

Cheers all

Peg

[longer ron]

Broomstick Pilot
Actually, there is an exception to this. When I was at London Gliding Club in the sixties they were building a thing called the 'Osprey'. As I recall, it took about twenty years to complete! Does anybody from LGC know what happened to this creation in the end. I seem to remember it did finally fly)?

Not sure if it is the same 'Osprey' you mentioned but one of our Prune members used to own/fly an Osprey...it was based on a Slingsby Dart 15 I believe and was unique (ie one of a kind),I will contact him and see if he has a photo !

rgds LR

[mary meagher]

Pegpilot, you reminded me of the most famous homebuilt that ever got left in the attic...at Colditz! but then they had plenty of time.....

[lotusexige]

chrisN, I remember meeting Frank Costin a few times in the early 80s when he lived in Ireland. He had built his own house, very innovative and interesting wooden roof structure and also built a basic glider he called the Scud 2. I think that the Scud 1 must have been one that he had built in the dim and distant past.
For those of you too young to know, Frank Costin had worked for years od wooden aircraft structure at de Havilland including the Mosquito and the Vampire nacelle. Later he moved to cars like the original Marcos and did a lot of aerodynamic work on race cars. A great character.

[Mechta]

Frank Costin was Mechta Senior's gliding instructor at Portsmouth in the war, when the latter was an air cadet. There was still a civil gliding club operating there and they shared aircraft, so the air cadets were some of the few who had access to a two seater glider for training. Presumably Frank Costin was working at Airspeed, who were on the same airfield?

The housebuilding thing must have rubbed off, as Mechta Senior designed and built two in his spare time. The second having a basement designed to accomodate the full span of a 15 metre glider wing. The house got built, but not the glider!

[lotusexige]

Interesting about the basement being big enough for a 15m glider.
When Costin built his house he first built the jig for the roof trusses from concrete blocks. The trusses were then used as simple trusses for his workshop and paired for the house to give a sort of Dutch barn effect.
A great believer in wood for structures, he held the view that plastics were for fairing and fillets. The last man I've ever seen who carried a slide rule in his pocket.

I never heard him mention Airspeed and I don't recall him being mentioned in Nevil Shute's autobiography, 'Slide Rule', although it is a long time since I've read it.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Longer Ron,

Thanks for your post about the Dunstable Downs Osprey.

That does sound like the right Osprey. It would have been unique because building another one would probably have taken another twenty years!

I shall be interested to hear.

Best regards,

BP.

[Mechta]

lotusexige,

This site The Colin Chapman Museum - Frank Costin (http://www.colinchapmanmuseum.org.uk/General/Interest/Frank%20Costin.html)
gives Frank Costin's employment history as:



General Aircraft
Airspeed [Oxford]
Supermarine
Percival Aircraft Co.
Folland Airspeed
De Havilland
Costin Drake [General Consultancy]
Family base consultancy towards the end of his life.

I'm not altogerher surprised that Neville Shute doesn't mention him, when you consider that Frank Costin was 25 at the end of the war, whilst Shute had left Airspeed to work on special weapons for the Royal Navy fairly early on, and the company had been sold to De Havilland in 1940.



The roof trusses you describe sound not unlike those of a Bessonneau hangar. Ours were built in situ, which considering how Mechta Senior, like many in aviation, does not like heights when attached to the ground, must have been an undertaking. The most unusual feature of our house was the woodwool slab roof to the basement, These were wood shavings coated in concrete dust and fused together. Under the garage they were supported on concrete pillars cast in circular oil drums which were then cut away afterwards.

[longer ron]

Hi BP
The ex Osprey owner/ pilot is not a member on here after all - my mistake - but he has emailed me a piccy and some details to my home...I will post it here when I am home this weekend !

rgds LR

[astir 8]

Mr Lotusexige sir,

Pardon my saying but the Scuds 1,2 and 3 were designed by a gent named Baynes. The Scud 1 dated from 1931, Scud 2 was built in 1932 (to correct instability in the Scud 1). One Scud 2 is still airworthy

The Scud 3 was a remarkably advanced (for 1935) glider with a "pop up" engine. It was frowned-on by gliding purists and the engines removed. Both examples are still in existence.

(ref "Sailplanes 1920 - 1945 by Martin Simons)

Mr Mechta's link to the Chapman museum says that Mike Costin's glider design was called the "Condor" (There are also German designs called Condor though)

[mary meagher]

Astir8, wonder how well that Scud 3 performed with its engine if they removed it! if it worked well can't imagine that the scorn of some pedants would shame them into taking it off.....

Reminds me of Brian Badger's adaptation of the venerable T21 glider; he fastened an engine with fixed propellor on top of that enormous wing; and took a winch launch with the engine fired up and running flat out......after they released from the wire, the rest of the flight was a steady return to earth, so much for the sustaining engine in that particular combination. It was quietly returned to the original configuration. The floating Zedburg.....I believe that more successful adaptations have been undertaken....

The T21, until it made an unfortunate arrival last summer, was an excellent chariot for a summer's day floating round the sky. It was fitted with a squeezey bulb tooter, to warn onlookers of its approach. Now that was style!

[Mechta]

A good write up on the Scud gliders here: Scale Soaring UK - The Scud Sailplanes (http://scalesoaring.co.uk/VINTAGE/Documentation/Scud/Scud.htm)

At least one Scud 3 was still flying, minus engine, until quite recently at Dunstable.

This must be the Condor that Astir 8 mentioned:

Davis-Costin Condor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis-Costin_Condor)
http://j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/3vues/Davis-Costin_Condor_3v.jpg

Mary, the bulb horn sounds like an excellent idea! I rather fancy one, otherwise a it will have to be a row of speakers along the front of the airbrakes, playing 'Ride of the Valkeries' :E

[spekesoftly]

Mr Mechta's link to the Chapman museum says that Mike* Costin's glider design was called the "Condor" Further down that link it also mentions that Frank Costin designed another glider called the "Dragonfly".

*I think that should read Frank, and not his brother Mike.

[abgd]

There are also quite a lot of foot-launch designs such as the Mitchell wing that people do build from time to time... Perhaps less now that rigid hang gliders are more an off-the-shelf sort of thing.

[astir 8]

Mechta

The Challock (Kent) T21 is fitted with a tape deck and speakers which is used to play ......you guessed it!

(and it has a bomb rack, strictly for jettisoning water ballast you understand)

Spekesoftly - sorry, got my Costins in a twist there!

Mary - The other year at the International Vintage Rally at Tibenham, Ken Wallis turned up with a very neat 2 stroke engine (formerly a ME 262 starter engine) and propellor mounted on a pylon. Apparently it had been fitted to one of the Petrels at Redhill early post war. The CFI (Lorne Welch) immediately said "You're not flying that 'ere" or words to that effect - but they did, a couple of times before the Petrel reverted to being a glider. Again because of the risk of gliding being "contaminated" by engines.

I think that self sustainers and self launchers are now reasonably well accepted in gliding (except when they get home and I don't!)

The feature I liked best about the engined Scud 3 was that it apparently had a hand throttle fitted to the wingtip so that the wing walker could "taxi" it out to the launch point. Now that's what I call advanced thinking!

[lotusexige]

astir8, I may well be mistaken in thinking that he called it the Scud 2, after all it was about 30 years ago. It does, for some reason stick in my mind.

[astir 8]

Seen it recently at Shuttleworth?

[longer ron]

Osprey photos (taken at Rivar Hill/Shalbourne)

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/Osprey1.jpg


http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/Osprey2.jpg

And some background info from D


My understanding of the Osprey's heritage is that:

- the original Osprey was based on a Dart 15 fuselage with new wings designed and built by Keith Chard;
- the aircraft was subsequently modified by Colin Street (I think) to become the Osprey II;

- I based it at Old Sarum (Dorset GC) and then Rivar Hill (Shalbourne) but visited many other gliding clubs (sometimes planned visits, sometimes not...);
- The glider had similar performance and handling to the Dart 15 - including the stalling characteristics;
- I liked it a lot - it got me my Gold badge and Diamond goal;

[joshmad]

Hello, I am a french student and I have a small souding to submit you.
Everything is explained on the this link : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_gImnnpRWDHlc2XIZbOswOHHXZroyLebu8IJEcWYl3Q/viewform
It takes only 2 minutes to answer and it will be very helpfull for us.
Thank you very much.

(Approved by the Towers)