Foreign Pilot Petition

[KingAir]

Petition Foreign pilots working on temporary work permits in Canada (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/foreignpilotsworkingincanada/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=system&utm_campaign=Send+to+Friend)

Please read the petition and sign if you agree. Note, you do not need to donate money if you do not want.

[Jetaim]

What the **** are you talking about my friend? The world is becoming smaller..didn't you realize yet or may be in your farm in the woods you don't get the news? Wake up! There is plenty of Canadian abroad....so?

[chimbu warrior]

Whilst not unsympathetic to your plight, I have to say that the reply by Jetaim is correct. We might not like it, but that's the way the world is.

No I am not Canadian, I am Australian, and we have a situation here where almost (but thankfully not all) every operator requires a type, and where some even have the audacity to advertise overseas that they can arrange working visas.

This therefore suggests that the statement in the petition that it is
unique in any G-20 Nation
is incorrect.

We may not like the push by airline managers to abrogate their training (or at least type-rating) costs, but that is the way of the world.

Despite that, I have to say that the many pilots I have worked with from the UK, US, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada (plus others) are all fine aviators who just get on with the job. For every foreign pilot working in Canada, there are probably 5 Canucks working overseas.

[single chime]

Canadian pilots working overseas fill a void where the locals are not numerous enough (UAE, Qatar) or do not meet the experience level required (China,South Korea). When the numbers or experience level will match the needs, the Canadians (and other expats) will be out.
No Canadian can go to Europe, the US, Aus or South America and get a job. If there would be reciprocity, it would probably work. But there is none. In the mean time, the Canadian gov should look after the well being (employability) of its citizens by not allowing outside pilots in as long as there are experienced pilots at home. Requiring a TR should not be used as a way around that.
Canadian citizens should not bear the consequences of globalization without getting any benefits from it.

[Airbus_a321]

replace the word CANADIAN by almost any other NATIONALITY and it will fit the same way.

BTW, I totally agree with the statement ...If there would be reciprocity, it would probably work. But there is none...

And just because GERMANY is mentioned in the petition so often:
I know about many foreign pilots working in German airlines in a permanent position, with all the social and unions rights, at the same time hundreds of higly qualified German pilots are forced to work abroad just as "slaves" on a hire and fire base. Without having any rights etc etc....can you explain? :mad:

At the end of the day all expat pilots around this crazy world are in the same sh..:mad:.. situation. But doing a petition? :=

This is one side of globalisation, the politicians always talk about :{

[repulo]

Sunwing is going from 6-8 aircraft in the summerr to 22 in the winter, then back to 8. So those 200 canadian pilots would be layed of again.
TUIfly offered a reasonable amount of canadian F/O´s a position but needed those pilots in April. Due to Sunwing`s own demand those F/o´s could not be spared,the deal didn´t materialize, so no reciprocity.
No other carrier has such a great capacity fluctuation.

[PT6A]

You have not done your homework before drawing up that petition....

Canada entered into a bilateral agreement that allows the operation which Sunwing conduct, it was Sunwings fault that the Canadian pilots did not get to go and fly in Europe.

Because of the agrement that Canada entered into a LMO is not required for the pilots joining Sunwing.

If you force Sunwing too hard it may result in less jobs for Canadians... not more.

For the record, airlines in Germany employ pilots from many other countries (Your artical makes out they only employ German Nationals)

Ryan Air, Aer Arann, Wizz Air, and im sure others did or do hire type rated pilots from overseas (So again it is a false statment to say that no other memeber of the G20 will hire a non national)

[Denti]

We send about 30 of those pilots over to canada during winter, last winter to sunwings, the winters before to canjet. The mix of pilots that went to canada was pretty varied, there were canadians, us citizens, turks, argentinians and of course a few germans as well as some other nationalities. All those have a permanent position in germany with a non-tui airline.

Would we have taken in canadians as well? Why not, we have taken on temporary pilots from other companies like lufthansa, tuifly and so on as well, however FO positions only. And of course for a temporary contract we wouldn't rate anyone, type rating and experience on type is required. However there was simply no demand at all from the canadian side.

[AAIGUY]

As one of the thousands of Canadians working on heavy jets oversea's I think you need to buy a clue. I've worked all over Europe on EU reg jets (on very flimsy validations) and throughout Asia, and even in the US on a contract.

The world is a single market place. There is no room for national protectionism

[GMC1500]

Canadians love protectionism, so long as if favors them. Just look at their position on Emirates having more access.
They're also in favor of government intervention, so long as it benefits them.
AC folks love the intervention when it keeps EK out, hate it when it stops them from striking.
For the record, I am Canadian, and we had an Aussie pilot working at my first turboprop airline. One. Not a big deal.

[Minorite invisible]

Some people who have posted comments here did not understand the issue.

First of all, this whole affair concerns only foreign pilots who come to work to Canada on TEMPORARY short term contracts, 4, 5 or 6 months and who work in Canada with a validated Foreign licence. It does NOT concern foreign pilots who are hired by a Canadian airline on a full time basis with a Canadian Landed Immigrant Permit and who obtain Transport Canada licences.

The Temporary Foreign pilots who came to work in Canada at Sunwing or Canjet came under one of two Immigration regulations.

The first is the reciprocity rule. It states that Foreigners can come and work in Canada if an equal number of Canadian pilots go to work overseas as a result. The technical term they use is "must have a zero labour impact". The idea is that 50 European pilots would come to Canada in Winter, which would allow 50 Canadian pilots go work to Europe in the Summer. It seems that this rule was not respected by the Canadian airlines involved and that the number of foreign pilots who came to work in Canada under this rule far exceeded the number of Canadians who went to work overseas as a result. There are even rumors that the new EASA licencing regulations will exacerbate this problem although I do not know if this is true.

The second Immigration rule under which some temporary foreign pilots came to work in Canada was the Labour Market Opinion (LMO) rule. That rule requires the Canadian employer prove to HRSDC (a Labour Ministry in Canada) that there is a shortage of qualified pilots in Canada, after which which HRSDC authorizes Immigration Canada to provide x number of foreign pilots with temporary work visas. The way they have done this is to advertise short term contracts requiring that applicants be Type-Rated and current on the Boeing 737NG. When no pilots filling the requirements applied, HRSDC issued an LMO authorizing Immigration Canada to issue temporary work permits to foreigners to fill in the void.

Take that situation as seen by a Canadian 15,000 hour, ex-Boeing 757 Captain with defunct Skyservice who has been out of a job and who lives in Toronto where the temp job is based. He is not allowed to apply because Sunwing does not want to train him on the 737NG to SAVE MONEY.

The LMO rule is not meant to be used to allow airlines to SAVE MONEY by not having to pay for Type-ratings, but to fill a genuine labour shortage. The fact that pilots like this un-employed highly experienced 757 captain exist prove that there is no labour shortage for pilots in Canada.

So the real reason Sunwing is requesting LMOs from HRSDC for temporary foreign pilots is to save money on training. If they are allowed to do this, all other airlines will be able to claim the same (Type-ratings) to justify hiring foreigners that are already Type-rated on the aircraft they fly. If that is allowed, there will no longer be any Canadians flying for any Canadian airline in the country.

That is why all major pilot unions in Canada (ACPA, ALPA, Westjet's pilot's association, even Sunwing's) and most airlines in Canada (excluding Sunwing) oppose this practice and support the spirit of the petition.

[AAIGUY]

B757 captain should get off his as* as there
are tonnes of jobs for him world wide.
No excuse for his being unemployed other than
his own lack of effort or will.

[repulo]

You talk about jobs in Canada? If TUI, who ownes 49% of Sunwing hadn´t injected money a few years ago, who knows if SWG were there at all?
Then, of course, the Eouropean money was welcome, right? Nobody in Canada complained and said: Let´s rather invest that money to create European jobs!

[Minorite invisible]

Some guys have been flying water bombers for years, which is seasonal summer work. Many go on unemployment insurance every winter, paid for by HRSDC, the same Ministry that delivers the LMOs to the foreign pilots.

So while HRSDC pays UI to qualified Canadian pilots in the winter, it delivers LMOs for foreign pilots to come and work in Canada in the winter. These temporary foreign pilots pay zero taxes in Canada. Some of these water bomber pilots have signed the petition and stated that this seasonal 737 winter job would be ideal for them, if they were given the chance to apply. They would keep both seasonal jobs.

Wouldn't it make more sense for HRSDC to stop paying UI to the water bomber pilots in winter and letting them apply for the 737 jobs ?

[PT6A]

Minorite invisible (http://www.pprune.org/members/119749-minorite-invisible)

The European pilots coming to fly for Sunwing are exempt from the LMO, as I pointed out above.

[Scott C]

KingAir, my parents re-located to Canada 5 years ago and got their permanent residency granted. I also got it as well, as I was under 21, so was on their visa. However, I was born and raised in England and still live here, so would you object to someone like me coming to work in Canada even though I have every right to?

Just a thought...

[Minorite invisible]

The European pilots coming to fly for Sunwing are exempt from the LMO, as I pointed out above.

Like I explained above, Sunwing brings in pilots under two different Immigration schemes:

1) The majority come under the reciprocity scheme, which requires no LMOs but requires that an equal number of Canadian pilots go work overseas in exchange, and that is an Immigration Canada requirement.

2) Some pilots came under LMOs

They also Wet-Lease foreign aircraft which is a third method.

Do you really think that German airlines like Air Berlin or Lufthansa hire non-EU residents and non-EASA licence holders as pilots? If yes, produce just one please. I'd love to hear about him/her.

[PT6A]

Sunwing is not "hiring" these pilots they are there on a temporary basis.

If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.

[rigpiggy]

then let it fail

[Minorite invisible]

Sunwing is not "hiring" these pilots they are there on a temporary basis.

If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.

That is exactly what some people say and are trying to prove: That TUI is dumping it's idle pilots and aircraft in Canada at little or no cost to Sunwing. If that is true, then dumping as a means to gain an unfair commercial advantage over the competition can be found to be illegal. Also, TUI, which already holds 49% of Sunwing shares, the legal Canadian limit, in practice owns much more since they control the company by controlling more than half of the fleet and more than half of the pilots, which are provided at little cost........ So Sunwing is really controlled by Foreign interests......

[PT6A]

So you would rather see even more of your Canadian brothers out of work?

Let Sunwing die and EK finish Air Canada?

[KingAir]

Scott C, you and your parents came over to Canada as immigrants. So did mine. I definitely do not object to someone like you working here in Canada. As stated by Minorite, this petition is for temporary workers taking jobs from ordinary Canadians. This will affect you as well. There are many pilots looking for work in Canada and many others looking to move up to the airlines. This affects them. Many who have made comments on this thread are not affected by this. Look at the petition and how many have signed. These are Canadian pilots protecting Canadian jobs. Like I said, sign if you agree.

[PT6A]

This whole petition is ill thought out and stinks of short sighted unions failing to see the big picture.

the way you keep talking about "Canadians" I think you should refer to Indian's as Canada is nation of immigrants... So it's really come full circle.. Pot kettle black?


Canada has a history of embracing foreigners and should continue to do so.

Why anyone would rather see Sunwing out of business as opposed to having outside investment..... Very strange!

Maybe this ill thought out action will start affecting Canadians traveling elsewhere (already occurred with the UAE)

Perhaps the capacity fluctuations at Sunwing should be fixed by means of wet lease, thus providing no chance of Canadians being in an operating seat.

[Willie Everlearn]

PT6A

What a misinformed post. If you don't understand the issue, why bother to join in?

Your suggestion that native Indians are the only true Canadians is nothing more than ignorance and a repetition of the nonsense we so often hear from ignorant Europeans. The North American indian migrated from Asia. Even the Europeans crawled out of the sea at some point. So who came from where and when is nothing more than sticking your finger on history's timeline and saying, "Let's go from here". When was Europe populated? Tribes migrated and settled all across the continent as I recall from early schooling. Does it really matter in 2012?

I'm Canadian of German descent. My family immigrated in the early 1800's to this country. Every generation of my family since was born and raised here. So why can't I claim German citizenship if you think me and Canadians similar to me are truly non-Canadian. What would you consider me to be if I'm not a real Canadian? Am I European then?
Don't be ridiculous.

Foreign pilots working in Canada is a big deal. A HUGE deal in fact.
Especially when those pilots were given these jobs under false pretenses under the blind eye of our government. The pretense being there are no Canadian pilots qualified to fill the positions. There are hundreds of Canadian pilots more than qualified, capable and willing to fill these vacancies. But for the lack of a B737 NG type rating, Canadian pilots are considered Not Qualified. I, for one, would beg to differ.

The idea of reciprocity is nothing more than idiotic drivel from those who don't understand the dynamic differences from market to market and region to region. There will never be equality in reciprocity. It's a non-starter.

If Sunwings fate is to go bust over this, then so be it. At least they can't say it was because there weren't enough "Canadian" pilots available to fill the positions. I have over 11,000 hours, am typed on B737/757/767 A310/A300 holding 3 ATPLs and wasn't even afforded the decency of PFO letter. As for finding something overseas? My Type Ratings except for one, have all lapsed. As everyone on PPRuNe well knows, if you aren't current and qualified, NO ONE is going to take you on. An individuals 'effort' to find something overseas with lapsed ratings is nothing more than a wasted effort. Welcome to aviation.
So yes, there are Canadian pilots well qualified out here for any B737 generation any Canadian carrier would wish to have in its fleet. No need for foreign pilots, period.

I'm sure the day this country has a pilot shortage foreign pilots will be welcome. The fact is there is no pilot shortage over here at present. Sunwing and Canjet merely don't wish to invest in type ratings. For Canadian pilots, this petition should matter.

As for your suggetion of wet lease as a solution, I tend to agree with you. Short term seasonal uplift would likely result in alot less commotion. In this particular case, not only are foreign pilots flying European registered aeroplanes they are also flying Canadian registered aeroplanes on an LVC. Nothing could be further from any wet lease agreement.

Bulls*it, I say.
Willie :ugh:

[PT6A]

It has already been found in court that an employer is legally allowed to classify various types as totally separate jobs, the case in question was for redundancy, but will of course hold true for hiring.

So if a company operate both 737's and A320's then the positions flying those fleets are considered completely separate.

As such if a company needed to downsize and remove the 737 fleet it could remove people higher in the seniority list, based on the fact they are not type rated on the A320.

Why should Sunwing be forced to over inflate its workforce when it only requires the numbers for a period of the year?

Further why should they pay for type rating when they dont get year round use out of them?

It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.

It's not too unlike FedEx operating N reg aircraft with American crews in Europe, doing intra-European flights... Welcome to the world of business.

With the exception of WestJet Canada does not have much going for it in terms of airlines (lots of GA though) so you really want to see the back of Sunwing?

Ps. No I don't think you should be an Indian to fly in Canada, but the way your petition is drafted and the remarks on this website.... Your leaving a very sour taste in people's mouths.

I loved the season I flew in Canada, they made everything so simple

Work permit at the airport, visited the TC office and an ATPL was printed out... Couple of weeks later the real one arrived in the post :)

Maybe, you would prefer Sunwing to be introduced to CTC... Then many Canadians can "fly" for Sunwing, you won't be working for them but you will be flying the big shiny jet.

[J.O.]

PT6A;

Just what exactly do you suppose happens to those part-time aircraft that Sunwing and Canjet don't use during the summer? They don't sit up against some fence waiting for the snow to fly here in Canada. They go back to Europe where they came from and they fly charter flights to sunny climates for folks from northern Europe. And guess who flies them? That's right, the same pilots who fly them over here in the winter.

Given that these seasonal fluctuations are a reality that won't soon go away, the real solution is a balanced reciprocal crew sharing agreement, one where Canadians and Europeans benefit equally. Such an agreement has been used voluntarily in the past - and successfully so. Sunwing has a limited amount of such an agreement, but it is not equal and balanced. I'd guess that if they were required to have such a program in place, another 80 to 100 Canadians would be eligible for an airline job in this country.

This also goes to more than just pilot jobs in Canada, it also goes to a significant competitive advantage. The industry standard in Canada is not set by small charter outfits, it's set by the large airlines like AC, WS and Jazz, all of whom take on the responsibility (and cost) of training their pilots. They too are being hurt by this program in that their competitors are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in training costs.

There is a real and balanced solution that can and does work. That is all the petition is asking for.

[PT6A]

J.O but the agreement was not oupheld by Sunwing, they could not release the pilots to go to Europe so only a handful went.

[Minorite invisible]

J.O but the agreement was not oupheld by Sunwing, they could not release the pilots to go to Europe so only a handful went.

So in exchange, only an equal handfull of European pilots get to come over to Canada next winter, minus the excess they already accumulated from previous years.

I think you do not understand the issue. Canadian Immigration Regulations require an equal reciprocity. There is no agreement or regulation that allows Sunwing or Canjet to ignore that regulation. They have just been abusing the system, but will no longer be able to do so, for we will hold our Government, which can no longer claim ignorance, accountable.

Here is that regulation:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/fw/fw01-eng.pdf

R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers. Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact.

Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market.


The only manner for Canjet or Sunwing to legally exceed the number of pilots allowed under the reciprocal Immigration Clause R205(b) above, is by bringing in extra foreign pilots under an LMO, but as far as I am concerned, that LMO B/S has to come to a full stop.

[Willie Everlearn]

PT6A

It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.

Sister companies? Actually, I think these businesses are quite separate and only associate on a "what can I gain financially by sleeping with you" arrangement. They couldn't giva ****e about pilots and where they come from.

Again, Canada has a significant number of qualified pilots who can easily fill the requirements of Sunwing or Canjet. I don't think we need to repeat this statement for you. We seem to agree.

It is easily understood by most Canadian pilots that hiring qualified pilots makes sense. It really does make good business sense. But the simple reality is that these carriers are hiring seasonally European pilots when it simply isn't necessary for any Canadian carrier at the moment. They're simply too lazy and too cheap to provide the type rating training.

Since the Canadian Government has seen fit to allow them to do so through flawed legislation that covers more appropriately 'seasonal crop workers' to pick fruits and vegetables (where there truly is a shortage of workers) it's certainly inappropriate considering the present situation in Canadian aviation. Until we have a shortage of qualified Canadian pilots, the foreigners can stay home. When that changes, we'll have little or no choice, come on over.

If it is a type rating you're using to separate the men from the boys, then I can tell you most operators over here with some exceptions actually train new hires through a type rating course. As for me personally, I won't self sponsor any type rating, I am qualified enough. So, what's next? Have the pilots pay for the fuel because it makes good business sense?

Bullocks!!

Willie Everlearn :ok:

[PT6A]

Well good luck guys... I think you will need it!

Utimitaly I think if you win, your victory will be short lived as I think it will mean less jobs for Canadians not more... Sunwing would fold if they had to employ pilots they don't need year round.

[Minorite invisible]

Sunwing would fold if they had to employ pilots they don't need year round.

No one is asking that Sunwing and Canjet hire full time pilots. We are just asking that they hire Canadian pilots.

[diddly squat]

Wake up and smell the roses.

Next you will claim racism when Air Canada interviews in Mumbai :p

[Panama Jack]

Why do I get the feeling that a majority of the posters on this topic here and elsewhere are some frustrated King Air and Navajo drivers who feel they are entitled to a Boeing 737 job?

As PT6A says, "good luck."

[click]

Wonder how many qualified Canadian pilots working outside the country would consider a 'part-time' job back in Canada for the winter season. Let's see, a part time contract as a direct entry Captain back in Canada for the school year...kids go to an English school, don't have to commute back to see family..and this time next year, it's off to Europe for the summer and pick up a short term contract here. Doesn't sound too bad to me...and looks like a win win all the way around. How many do you think would consider this?

[Willie Everlearn]

PJ

I'm surprised by your remarks.

You're no doubt accurate to some degree in your suspicion that the "turbo prop" crowd are cheering this whole petition thing on but, whether or not there is a sense of entitlement among them should be of no consequence. Why wouldn't they, better yet, why should't they have some sense of entitlement?
The reality in Canada, as you well know, is that our home industry needs those jobs, full time or part time, for Canadian pilots. The next gen will undoubtedly and of necessity come from that same "turbo prop" crowd as they move up the ladder. If these operators are allowed to continue to use foreign talent then it directly affects our future by losing those opportunities which should allow these less experienced (but certainly qualified) pilots to gain the experience needed to sustain our airline industry in the future by moving them up that experience ladder.
I, for one, wouldn't like to see this use of foreign talent set a precedent moving forward. Certainly not in the manner in which these two named airlines are doing it based on ridiculous temporary worker legislation.

So why is it, as a fellow Canadian pilot, that you put it in such a condescending manner?
How did you get onto the Jet you fly today? I'm sure there is some turbo prop time in your past?
There is in mine.

Lo suyo es el futuro

Willie :ok:

[GMC1500]

couple of things;
first of all, isn't the Harper gov't changing the rules about temporary workers so as to make this whole argument legally irrelevant?
Second of all, what Canjet/Sunwing are doing is in line with what all second rate, fly by night operators around the world are doing in terms of only hiring type rated, current pilots. Its part and parcel of what makes them fly by night, second rate operators. If they were top rate, they'd only hire full time pilots and train them. But they're not, hence they don't. I don't think petitions are the answer. I don't think there is an answer in this case. Its a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

[PT6A]

No its supply and demand.

Why pay to train someone... When you can get a guy who is typed with time on type... Who is sat at home?

The airlines at the moment are doing everything they can to hang on... You guys are not looking further than the end of your own nose!

[Minorite invisible]

PT6A,

How about we hire cheap physicians from Cuba to staff all Canadian hospitals ? No need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training Canadian doctors, that on top of it, we will have to pay 2 to 300K/year. It will certainly bring the cost of Healthcare down. I hear the Cuban doctors would gladly accept $1000/month if we offer room and board in some sort of camp. With globalization, and free trade and all, this is what the world is coming to and why fight it ? It's up to Canada, to compete, to be able to train doctors at the same cost the Cubans are capable training them, and it's up to Canada to be able to compete with the salaries of the Cuban Doctors. I mean, it's the Canadian Taxpayers that are taking the brunt of Healthcare in Canada. The salaries of physicians in Canada accounts for 15% of the country's health care expenditures. With about $195 Billion in health care expenditures per year, Canada spends about 29 Billion on physicians' salaries alone. We should send all our expensive Canadian physicians to work for high salaries, in Saudia Arabia, where they are popular and in high demand, and bring the cost of Health in Canada down by importing cheap Cuban physicians.

Of course, the presence of all the Cuban doctors in Canada will increase the actual net number of jobs since all security guards, receptionists, administrative employees and nurses will still be Canadian, and with the money we will save by having Cuban doctors instead of Canadian ones, we will be able to open more hospitals in smaller towns where none could be afforded beforehand, and in these small towns we will hire more Canadian staff for these new hospitals. All the $12/hour employees in these new hospitals will be in favor of the Cuban doctors of course.....

I'm certain you agree with all I wrote here, right ?

[PT6A]

Canada already does import medical staff... they actually fast track their applications.

Calgary Police are also always in the paper overseas to recruit police officers.

So what you talk about is already been going on for years.

[GMC1500]

Damn Minorite,
You should work for the government. You'd save Canadian taxpayers a tonne (metric).
Though I know you're severely tongue in cheek, how about making doctors in canada actually pay for the cost of their training as pilots do? then open up as many training spots as possible, as for pilots, and let the best doctors compete for the jobs?

[PT6A]

Or do what they do at present.. and cherry pick good medical staff from overseas... that way they dont pay for any training :)

In exchange they get someone with time on type if you will

[Willie Everlearn]

PT6A

"Why pay to train someone... When you can get a guy who is typed with time on type... Who is sat at home?"

Good question.

Because, for one, most of us over here would like to see an end to the pay-as-you-play Ryanair bull**it that some individuals with the funds are taking advantage of (through no fault of their own) by buying the type rating and funding their employment. Second only to those who offer to fly for free I might add. That nonsense has and is infecting the whole industry at a great rate. You'd think pilots would have more self respect and a greater desire to restore some professionalism to the occupation. If these marginal carriers, who call themselves airlines, can't make a business plan work that includes a sensible training budget proportional to their operation and ambition, then let them fold up.

That void will, does and always has been filled in the past.

One of the more successful airlines in Canada at the moment happens to be Westjet. They don't seem to be having trouble recruiting 'qualified' Canadian pilots and don't seem to rely on contracting out to overseas agencies and pilots with type ratings and time on type.
The same applies to Sunwing and Canjet who would be in the same boat if they only had the will to hire qualified Canadian pilots in a similar fashion instead of relying on the horse**it story they've shoveled on the Canadian government to get away with this practice.
If these carriers don't wake up and right a wrong it is likely that a majority of Canadian pilots will boycott these two carriers right about the time the Canadian government wakes up and issues a cease and disist order.

We also live in a country (serfdom) that happens to have the B737 broken into 3 type ratings, B73A, B73B and B73C. The yanks have a B737 type for all versions. As it should be.

But, we each have our opinions and I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree.

Cheers,
Willie :ok:

[lilflyboy262...2]

Not trying to sidetrack the topic.
But when faced with the options of chucking bags on the ramp in -30. Or borrowing money to pay for a rating... I can see why the latter is an attractive option for new pilots.

[gumbi]

First and foremost, we have to get rid of the term "qualified" in this discussion, and adopt what European pilots associations all over are using instead; that is "qualifiable"...

A qualified pilot will have what is required by a prospective employer, i-e a type rating in hand...

A qualifiable pilot will have what it takes for said employer to qualify the pilot on the type operated, at employer's expense as should be.

My $0.02...

[Denti]

I wonder where P2F comes into it here. The primary complaint was about foreign pilots working during winter in Canada, mainly German ones apparently. Well, those are certainly not P2F pilots as those German carriers that take part in that program do not offer P2F in the first place. Pilots are hired based on entry selection and given the type rating against a 12 month deprecating bond. Or they are airline cadets trained from the get-go for their airlines in a program where the airline carries a substantial part of the cost. Unlike in Canada those pilots get their first jet job usually with either 80 (i believe non of the MPL guys went to canada yet) or 250 hours and their experience is mainly on type, in general between 4000 and 25000 hours.

By the way, in which way is the 737 rating broken into parts over there? Here in Europe it is two parts, -100/-200 and the rest rolled into one.

[GMC1500]

Denti just confused me.
And to step back a few posts, but back when I was a prospective westjet guy, the deal was that if you were hired you were not provided with any training pay or any accomodation if you were selected, while all other airlines gave both. Plus it was mandatory that you had to fly yourself out to calgary to "do the tour" of the hangar and shake hands with the recruitment guy, escorted by your sponsor.
While that's not pay to fly, it was pretty degrading compared to what the others were doing. Yet guys lined up for it. It may have changed now, but I don't know. Feel free to shed light if you are in the know.
Plus, if you were lucky enough to be hired, you were "expected" to put 20% of your measly starting salary into compay stocks, lest you be ostracized.
Yes, we have our sad stories in canada too, let's not even talk about jetsgo.