Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe

[iwrbf]

Hi,

I just found a (more or less) short essay (in german and in english) about the new EASA regulations on a german website. Although I'm not sure if this wouldn't be better placed in one of the GA subforums (hint to the moderators: sorry for that, move it as you like), I think this one should be read by just every pilot available :-)

(Note: Please READ the actual essay. Don't judge by its headline, that would miss the point. It's about European bureaucracy and lobbyism killing ICAO achievements of the past. It's just about the new EASA regulations, not about italian phantasy taxes etc...)

Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe (http://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/artikel/2012-04-07/EASA_Part_FCL_and_foreign_pilots)

[before landing check list]

I had no idea. Sorry to hear this.

[de facto]

As a european, i went through all required exams to gain my JAA Atpl.All 14 exams and skill test.
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop bitc@@@@@@@:ugh:

[3bars]

I'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States!:suspect:

[McBruce]

Lets not forget the FTLs they're trying to increase....

Its a disgrace the whole system. I'm not quite sure on how this scenario would play out but imagine your a European pilot, you leave for the sand pit, do 10 years. You've converted your UK or EASA licence to the UAE one. Now its time to come back....I'm guessing you will be in the same situation as any 'foreign' pilot wishing to exercise his skills on European soil?

The only good part about this new licence is TR's stay on your licence for life subject to refresher/revalidation courses.

[de facto]

Its a disgrace the whole system. I'm not quite sure on how this scenario would play out but imagine your a European pilot, you leave for the sand pit, do 10 years. You've converted your UK or EASA licence to the UAE one. Now its time to come back....I'm guessing you will be in the same situation as any 'foreign' pilot wishing to exercise his skills on European soil?

Not correct, at least my european license (IR)remains valid while i work for an airline overseas.
However the type rating expires after a year but can be reinstated after a jaa skill test in sim of such type.

[Yankee Whisky]

Quote:3barsI'm missing something....has regulation in America, Canada, Australia etc. not been effectively turning European Pilots away for years?

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....

.....and then paid again, through the nose, because apparently the air is different in England to the States






Comments, like the above, are not in line with my experience as a pilot
who has trained and checked out many European,and other, nationals.

Many AirForce pilots from Europe have been trained here as have many private pilots AT A COST FAR LESS THAN THAT CHARGED IN EUROPE, I may add.

Mis-information is worse than not knowing at all !

As far as acceptable piloting standards, ICAO has regulations governing these and, if adhered to by the training countries, pilots should be able to fly in any other country that follows these rules as well.

If airspace has become at a premium, such as in Europe, there still remains the fact that clearance obtained is (should be) the same as in all ICAO standard airspace.:ugh:

[2EggOmelette]

It has been this way for a little while unfortunately and only shows signs of getting stupider.
Being a Kiwi with the right to reside in Europe, with an Australian, NZ, Fijian, Indo and PNG CPL (these required 2 exams each and about $100 in expenses), a fair amount of experience I find it a bit daft that I cant even fly a C208 here in Europe.
This means that I have no choice but to drag my French wife and son out of Europe in order to provide for them.
Unless of course I sit all the exams - Again. And get basically financially shafted.

De Facto.... Stop bitching? Say that to my wife! You talk of what you know nothing. Shut your trap.

Really is a pity for Europe, as there are a hell of a lot of Canadians, Americans, Australians, South Africans and Kiwis who would love to fly here. Would probably aid the industry having more 2000+ hour pilots around.

Ah well, to bad. :ugh:

[de facto]

De Facto.... Stop bitching? Say that to my wife! You talk of what you know nothing. Shut your trap.
One more reason..
Would probably aid the industry having more 2000+ hour pilots around.
And another one...
This means that I have no choice but to drag my French wife and son out of Europe in order to provide for them.
I am in china to provide for my family.. Like i said .,stop bitc@@@@.

[2EggOmelette]

De Facto.

So you are in China, so what? Many of us work abroad. I myself have done it many times and will continue to do so. The article refers to the difference compared to other ICAO countries. However you are not here (Europe) having to deal with this rubbish.
Being a Euro pilot, you wont have to deal with this when and if you choose to return.

So enlighten us oh mighty one, why the attitude?

Care to expand on these "reasons"?

or prefer to stay with sweeping general statements?

[Finals19]

Adam F...

I flew in north America for several years mate - before that I had a UK PPL in the UK but ultimately gained a Canadian CPL/ME/IR and worked there.

I now work back in Europe and converted to the JAA (EASA) CPL/ME/IR. I went into it eyes wide open, and yes it cost me a significant amount. Its no good complaining about it - as others have said, it is what it is, its perfectly clear what is required. You have a choice.

As for flying on type in Europe (your C208) there is a significant difference in (rather complex) procedures in EASA land (largely due to an umbrella structure that encompasses many different countries, languages etc) and this needs to be instructed. It was way easier to take my old licence to Canada than vice versa.

Granted EASA is bureaucratic and expensive, but it is what it is.

[hawker750]

The stupidity of these new EASA licences is endless. Listen. A certain large UK PLC operating a couple of private King Air 200's decided many years ago, for safety reasons, to operate them 2 crew with 2 fully rated pilots. Under CAA/JAR licencing this was fine and dandy. Along come EASA and say: " You cannot do that as the King Air is a single pilot certficated aircraft and you do not have a multi crew type rating on your ATPL". No dispensations are alowed so the pilots had to do a Multi crew type rating (HS125), get it endorsed on their licences in order to be legal to fly the King Air multi crew. A perfect Catch 22. If I had not been involved in their traning and heard it from the pilots I would not have believed it. To pay for all this BS the CAA have increased my AOC fees by 25% this year. No wonder I am loosing so much business to M registered charter aircraft that the CAA say do not exist.

[2EggOmelette]

Finals 19.

Quite right, we do have the choice. I also came here eyes wide open knowing that id have to take I hiatus or spend what I don't have. My issue is not with the fact that I have to do this extra (if my original post sounded like a whinging togie, I do apologise, not my intention). My issue is WHY. This is what the article was alluding to.
If ICAO is being ignored, then what's the point? The training in NZ is no different than that in the UK. So why does the EU continue to make it difficult/expensive. It is counter productive.

If we just keep quiet, say yes sir and don't question the issue, it will not change.

I understand that many out there don't want it to change.

I pity them. Because then every nation will start playing the same dam game.

And that will damage aviation. Not just in the EU but everywhere that decides to play this game

[kingpost]

If I operate a N registered bus jet in the EU, why would I have to get an EU licence, when the AOC is American.......not buying it.

In fact, let them go ahead with this ruling and see how long it lasts, the industry needs 20 000 pilots a year for the next 20 years, good luck to them - twats!

[truckflyer]

kingpost;

20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!

I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!

Further I believe there came a ruling EASA, that N-reg pilots residing in EU land, is required to have EASA licence! At least there was rumours of this some time ago!

So what will it cost me to go over to FAA land, and convert my JAA IR to an FAA IR? I was quoted for getting PPL issued, would be looking at around £1000, the IR re-validation would be less? Just wondering, not that I am considering to do it!

Everything in EU land is more expensive than the US, but is it really that great difference in the end?

[BALLSOUT]

Not correct, at least my european license (IR)remains valid while i work for an airline overseas.
However the type rating expires after a year but can be reinstated after a jaa skill test in sim of such type.
Wrong! If you don't keep current you will loose it all after seven years. Flying outside of easa will not count.
It has always been the case that a European license was more difficult to obtain, the Americans make it easier to get an initial license but regulate things in a different way. No real change!

[DB6]

EASA = ****. No two ways about it.
It used to be that I had plans for the big lottery win along the lines of: buy Spitfire, buy Aston Martin etc etc.
Now it's: set up an organistaion to identify, pursue and prosecute all relevant EASA personnel for gross incompetence, criminal negligence etc etc and GET RID of the bastards. Then get Britain out of the EU.
Rant only just starting.........

[bluesideoops]

@DB6 - go for it mate, let's hear the rest! ;-)

[4x4]

It was with a degree of shock that I read about the new rulings being ratified by some faceless wonders on Brussels....there has been rumours of somewthing like this happening for years, but now some Back room boys have finally got it all together, and are enforcing this legislation upon us. I am quite sure that many of us with JAA/EASA licences have in some way looked down from our lofty positions, having passed our ATP exams.....at the seemingly inferior FAA equivalent....and yes, flying in Europe does have its challenges, so a European Licence may be deemed necessary???....

I have been flying for 30 years, and have held a CAA ATPL and an FAA ATPL, currently have 9000 hours on type of the Corporate Jet that I fly. Many Corporate Jets are operated on the US "November" register, or on various smaller Registered Authorities for primarily Tax reasons of the owners.....so to fly these aircraft, we have to comply to this requirement. Over the years I have unfortunately not kept up with my European Licences, due to cost and availability of Sim instructors. Also a minor Health issue, now renders me unable to hold a JAA Class 1 Medical Cetificate, but I have no problem meeting the requirements of the FAA Class 1......now, thanks to some chinless wonders in the European Parliament, I now have two years to end my Career in Aviation, at the age of 50. The European Union is not even a signatory to ICAO regulations.....presumably, because it is not actually a Ratified State.....or am I missing something.....has the United States of Europe been born and I missed it????

Unless I now resign from my position, (held for 15 years) and seek a job elsewhere in the World, with other countries that are ICAO signatories, I will be facing a very bleak future indeed. Kids about to start University, and No Flight Crew Licence is not a place I had worked so hard to achieve...

Can anyone tell me just who, when, why and what, has allowed the so called European Aviation Safety Agency, to start controlling peoples livelihoods, without any form of discussion, no grounding on any element of safety issues, just a European, self satisfied, bureacratically driven, unilateral sense of delusionary grandeur.....

I am hoping that not only can I hear from other Flight Crew in the same position, but also from all Flightcrew, who will support their fellow Pilots, against this tyrannical decision from the EU.

[Capt Scribble]

The aim of the EU is to weald total control of the population by imposing its undemoratic directives upon peoples and industries. The leaders are interested only in their own aims, those of the citizens do not count. We now have EASA which degrades the CAA to a gofor and paperwork executive. Now that this monolith is established local concerns do not have a chance of being aired. Citizens of the old USSR will recognise this regime immediately, sadly we missed killing it at birth.

[turbine100]

Regarding IR lapsing after 7 years, you have to retake some of the ATPL / IR exam subjects etc. Also it questions those flying abroad on foreign validations from their European issued license. Clearly the situation of a pilot flying abroad a heavy jet with a valid multi IR was never considered.

Those renewing IR's that may have booked an examiner direct and used their own plane, will have to renew via a FTO. The rules state something along the lines of how much training / discretion by the FTO, versuses time lapsed in months / year of the IR rating. e.g. less than 3 months, FTO descretion and beyond required training of X hours before test.

Some could argue, those examiners who perhaps tested private owners, outside of FTO's could loose out financially.

Those that are applying for their first multi crew operator job who might do a 1.5hr sim and then test currently whilst paying off debts. May now find under the new rules, the FTO make them do a lot more time in the sim / aircraft, increasing the costs further, before signing them off to take the test.

The UK CAA has not opposed this to EASA or put forward any other proposals.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Slightly off thread, but this attitude to 'foreign' licences from different agencies is nothing new.

Of course it doesn't affect me now, but during my working life I flew UK registered aircraft under IFR flight plans - and conditions ! - in and out and around New Zealand using my UK ATPL and I/R, but when I came to live here and attempted to convert my UK ATPL to a NZ one, I was told that a UK I/Rtg. was quote "not recognised", so I could only have a PPL.

My UK instrument was acceptable to fly around NZ in a UK registered a/c, so why is it any different if that registration is now NZ ? Just bureaucracy, but as I've said, nothing new.

I have every sympathy with those affected, best of luck chaps.

( P.s. I used to have a saying regarding my working conditions - quote " do it today 'cos tomorrow it will be worse " - sounds like it's still valid ! )

[con-pilot]

Well I guess the EU believes that they control the world, just look at the emissions charges that they are trying to make everyone pay, not just for flying in EU airspace but for all airspace from the departure point and after departing all the airspace to their next destination. Now this idiotic regulation.

Where does our goverment stand on this issue? Oh, sorry, stupid question. But somebody needs to tell the EU to stuff it, like the rest of the world. China and the US would make a great start.

Totalitarian bureaucracy run amok. :rolleyes:

[kingpost]

Truckflyer
20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!

I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!

I'll quote it for you from the Boeing website :

Pilot and Technical Training Requirements

As the world commercial fleet expands to more than 39,500 airplanes over the next 20 years, the world's airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, both to fly and maintain the new airplanes and to replace current personnel who are due to retire during the period.

From the horses mouth, I got it wrong, it's not 20000 pilots it's 23000 - think before leap with your hogwash comments.

Maybe a little more research before you comment next time.

Safe flying

[FLEXPWR]

A little competition or protectionism is understandable. This is just outrageous.

I am so grateful for the training I got in the US. I had a PPL when I arrived there, and it cost me less than 10000 USD to get a CPL Multi/IR (more than 15 years ago). With my small budget, the US was the only option, I got a validation of my European PPL in ONE HOUR and for FREE (previous appointment required). It cost less than 50 USD to get ALL the ezam prep books for you studies. It cost me 900 Euros to get the whole written series from Bristol aviation....If it wasn'tfor the US, I'd be growing potatoes instead of flying planes.

But the best gift I got from this, is a license that never expires and is recognized worldwide (aside EU), as long as I keep flying and renew my medical, there is virtually nothing else to do.

Flying internationally now based outside Europe (first by necessity, then by choice), I will have to fork out money to maintain a JAR license, although I fly everyday for an airline with a different licensing system, on the same aircraft type.

It is not only penalizing the pilots from outside EU, but also all EU pilots who had to move abroad due to economic uncertainties in EU Land, and fly now on a different aviation authority.

Anyway even within JAR territory, there is so much crap still between countries, for example the French DGAC requires to apply for a license validation from another JAR member state in order to fly a french registered airplane...:ugh::ugh: , or you have to go to your country of (JAR) license issue in order to pass your English proficiency... Thank you EASA, you make my life complicated, and you cost me more money than it should, not to mention the insult it has become to international pilots, after reading this article.

Flex

[MD11Engineer]

Some 11 years ago, when I had to get the FAA A&P licence, the biggest problem for me as a European was not the technical knowledge (I already had an Irish AME licence and a JAR 66 B1), but to get a letter from an American operator to the FAA, which stated that I, as a foreigner, was required to maintain their aircraft and that no American national was available to do the job.
Mind, at this time I was working for a big American cargo airline on their European base, a fact which was at least known to the FAA field representative, who had to issue the certificate to allow me to take the exams.
I don´t think that the EASA put any of such obstacles in the way ( it is more likely up to the individual EU countries to regulate the access of non-EU citizens to their markets through labour laws, not through aviation laws).
Similarly I had American colleagues, who lived in Europe and were bitching about the fact that they had to get an EASA licence (or JAR licence at this time) to get a wellpaying job certifying for European aircraft (there are not too many maintence companies around in Europe where one can get a good job solely based on a FAA A&P licence).
At least they didn´t face obstacles like having to prove their need to get the European licence, they were just required to get their behinds into gear and take the exams.

[mutt]

Considering the recent purchase of TNT by UPS, I wonder what impact this ruling will have on the N registered UPS aircraft based in Europe.....

Mutt

[Flightmech]

What they bought DHL too now?:E

[de facto]

ADAMF
So you are in China, so what? Many of us work abroad
Exactly my point..

As Finals19 wrote : I now work back in Europe and converted to the JAA (EASA) CPL/ME/IR. I went into it eyes wide open, and yes it cost me a significant amount. Its no good complaining about it - as others have said, it is what it is, its perfectly clear what is required. You have a choice.

Exactly the thought i tried to put across.

JAA has a standard,if you wanna enjoy the privileges of a EU license you simply have to do the work/sacrifice for it.
The SELECTION is the license.
In the US,the selection is experience and University degree.

Each system has its own ways.

In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines???

Wrong! If you don't keep current you will loose it all after seven years. Flying outside of easa will not count.

Wrong, the Airline i operate for in China is recognized by the UK CAA and my IR remains current while I work here.

[2EggOmelette]

De Facto,

Mate, with all due respect, that type of backward thinking is what created this sorry mess to begin with.
If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved.
If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
Somehow I doubt that.
As I said earlier, you may not give a toss because the issue does not effect you. That's fine, I don't really give a dam. But for those of us that it does, well we can see a better way, and quite frankly we would like to see it come to fruition as it will benefit all of us in the long run.

[mutt]

In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines??? A waiver and a green card are totally different things, even with a Ryanair waiver, you needed the right to work in Europe.

Mutt

[de facto]

If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved
I deal with the problem,I don't just complain about it.In other words, youd better off start studying:E

If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
Again, i deal with it with the resources I have, i don't seat there and whine bout it.
even with a Ryanair waiver, you needed the right to work in Europe.

Mutt
Most probably,however,ICAO holders still have a year exemption.
just enough time to pass those 14 exams:E
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP:p

[2EggOmelette]

That's not dealing with the issue, that is simply placating the muppets who pull the strings.
The study is no issue, the $30,000NZ needed to convert the licence, that is the issue.

[iwrbf]

@TolipsubriA (http://www.pprune.org/members/91741-tolipsubria)

+1 !

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

It was TNT that UPS bought out for 5.16bn Euros, not DHL....UNLESS I missed the memo from Moon Base and I now fly for UPS without realising!

2W2R :ok:

[janbrill]

As a european, i went through all required exams to gain my JAA Atpl.All 14 exams and skill test.
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop bitc@@@@@@@

Most probably,however,ICAO holders still have a year exemption.
just enough time to pass those 14 exams
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP


De Facto,

you seem to be pretty full of yourself for passing those 14 exams. As you correctly state in a later post, it's a selection. Nothing more. In fact it's a selection that separates good rote-learners with lots of time on their hands from bad rote-learners with little time on their hands. That's all. I'm really sorry that you apparently feel this to be a factor for your job security.

More important, it's also a selection between people who have EUR 15.000 to convert their license, type ratings and instructors privileges and those who don't. From a standpoint of aviation-safety this second selection is about as relevant as the first one.

BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause!

Unfortunately your argument in favor of the status quo is an intellectually very weak one. It boils down to: "I had to do it, so everybody else has to do it." That's plain silly, even if a case for the EASA-rule could me made on other grounds.

Anyway, if you read my article which iwrbf has linked, you notice that it's mainly about private pilots moving between systems due to job- or life-changes. And if you honestly think, that the current law is adequate or appropriate in these cases, then I would really like to know your reasoning.


best regards,
Jan Brill

[Northbeach]

I read the following article. Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe (http://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/artikel/2012-04-07/EASA_Part_FCL_and_foreign_pilots) I though it was well written.

I especially liked the line about the author being able to fly for a living verses growing potatoes because his limited finances going much farther in the US. I think it is a good thing that many of us not born into nobility or extreme wealth have the opportunity to pilot aircraft. I think we, the taxpayer of the United States, made a fine investment in the author. I think his attitude and summary are perfectly correct.

Further I would have to agree with Capt Scribble contribution to the discussion, I reposted it in quotes below. I am afraid there is a very dark side to this movement. It will develop iron jaws and steel teeth.


The aim of the EU is to weald total control of the population by imposing its undemoratic directives upon peoples and industries. The leaders are interested only in their own aims, those of the citizens do not count. We now have EASA which degrades the CAA to a gofor and paperwork executive. Now that this monolith is established local concerns do not have a chance of being aired. Citizens of the old USSR will recognise this regime immediately, sadly we missed killing it at birth.

[2EggOmelette]

Competition for jobs Spicejitter? Lol, if only it were so, then perhaps we wouldn't worry about it. Europe requires so many pilots that the cadetships pass them out into the right seat of a 737 after 300 hours total time. Now that is a low hour pilot in a jet. Most Aussies don't get there until well after 1500 hours :}

[countbat]

Europe is a very bureaucratic part of the world, everything has to go through government and their fees. If you want a fishing license the season is over by the time you finish all the loops to get that stupid license. You are better off to fish illegally. In US you just go Walmart pay your 28 usd fee and you are in your way fishing. US is about how good you are in doing a job, EU is about you have a diploma or not and how you doing your job comes second place and that IF.

[Flaymy]

What I have been told is that at least to a degree this is in response to a request from the FAA.

[Yankee Whisky]

Quote from AOPA circular;

The new rules will have a potentially massive effect on American flying schools that cater to European students. For years, Europeans having been coming to the United States to earn U.S. pilot certificates at prices thousands of dollars less than what it would have cost had they learned in Europe. Then they return to Europe and fly N-registered aircraft. Now, American flight schools will presumably have to alter their curricula to conform to EASA standards.

My comment;

This obviously is going to place undue cost burdens on NA flying schools
having to change to meet EASA standards.
This is going to cost the European pilots, and NA as well. What a bureaucrtic FU !:mad::mad::mad:

[de facto]

you seem to be pretty full of yourself for passing those 14 exams.
No I am not, however i did what my license authority required and it took time and hard work.I took the issue by the horns and succeeded.
A friend of mine did the atpl theory while working at the post office during the day,studying at night,passed all modules in 12 months,with the money he made during that year he started the conversion from his FAA ATPL (was an instructor for GA in the USA) and passed all his licenses.
Was he WHINING about it?yeah maybe but he DID IT and got a job later where he wanted to live..
Now i call this dedication, and my friends you need a LOT of it if you wanna make it in this industry.
Airlines don't like moaners,they like hard workers/achievers.
More important, it's also a selection between people who have EUR 15.000 to convert their license, type ratings and instructors privileges and those who don't. From a standpoint of aviation-safety this second selection is about as relevant as the first one.

It was the choice of those who left to get their license outside the EU for reasons of their choice(easier to get,cheaper,quicker or other) but they knew they would have to convert when and if they decided to come back.
A BIT OF FINANCIAL WORK/SACRIFICE,PLANNING AHEAD,STRONG WILL...and anyone can do it.
BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause![QUOTE]
I sat all of the 14.I will ask my school for a refund then:E
[QUOTE]Unfortunately your argument in favor of the status quo is an intellectually very weak one. It boils down to: "I had to do it, so everybody else has to do it." That's plain silly, even if a case for the EASA-rule could me made on other grounds.

Not at all, I wanted to get back to europe,I did what i had to do under the rules of the licensing department,unless they are changed,i am merely telling those who wish to do the same,well to start studying and saving..otherwise in 20 years they ll still be in the same chair whining on their computer, while the others ..well just moved on.
Anyway, if you read my article which iwrbf has linked, you notice that it's mainly about private pilots moving between systems due to job- or life-changes. And if you honestly think, that the current law is adequate or appropriate in these cases, then I would really like to know your reasoning.
yes i did and i can tell you flying in the UK airspace is quite different than flying in TEXAS or FLORIDA.:rolleyes:

[iwrbf]

Hi.

@de_facto: This whole license thing is not about YOU. It's about European Licensing. I have understood now that you chose your life in a deliberate sense, I see that you're a great aviator and I see that you're a patriotic European. But this is not about you, as I said two lines up. I won't insinuate some kind of Alexithymia on your side, but I would like you to think about the people who are really battered by this pseudo protectionism.

No offense, just my wish that you take a glimpse beyond your demonstrated horizon.

[avionimc]

de facto: i can tell you flying in the UK airspace is quite different than flying in TEXAS or FLORIDA.:rolleyes:

Really? Do they have different laws of physics?

I learned to fly at KDWH in Texas and flew extensively out of EGTK and in the greater London airspace (VFR & IFR), did not notice much difference, both places were friendly, except for all kind of fees being charged in the UK.

[avionimc]

de facto: i did what my license authority required and it took time

You seem to enjoy theoretical studies and written exams. As a suggestion, you could go to India and take all the DGCA ALTP written examinations over there as well. I am being told they are even tougher that the ones at EASA.

Though, it has been recognized as a fact, that these so called involved and expensive EASA or DGCA written exams do not produce better pilots...

[mad_jock]

This whole thing is nothing to do with safety which some people don't seem to realise.

It has been brewing for years.

Its all about a group of people giving the middle finger to the goverments and saying stick your rules up your arse I have found a way round them, I prefer these ones.

The loophole is now being shut.

As for policing it, all it takes is for every N reg to be met for a couple of months and the crew if not able to produce a JAR license or a green card/US passport get thrown in the nick and the aircraft impounded until its all sorted out.

You have been out manoveured by pro politicians end of story.

Apart from a minority who have been using the loophole nobody really cares one little bit. Some of us are pleased that the loophole is being shut. But are not pleased to see folk loosing their jobs. But you get that when loopholes shut. Whole industrys have shut down when they shut loopholes. Not much in the news about all the folk in the channels islands that are out of work now the VAT excemption has been closed.

[iwrbf]

@mad jock: There will be a day in the near future when you'll realize that your uber-trustworthy pro-politicians just did a trick on YOU... Sadly but true...

[mad_jock]

I already know that the EU is a pile of self serving :mad:.

I do know though that if I use a loophole I have to expect it to be shut at some point.

If I get in at the beginning I can expect a few years out of it, if its when it has become popular I can expect to get alot less time using it.

Crying about it post closure won't make them open it again. N reg is a victim of its own success in europe. When it was only a few it wasn't worth the bother to shut it. Now with growing numbers using it they can't ignore it any more. The EASA :mad: has just given them a good excuse to get it done.

[172_driver]

MD11Engineer touched upon it in post#26. I am trying to look at this issue from a different perspective. Yes, it's quite disgraceful the way EASA tries to protect the European aviation market from foreigners. It's quite clear it has nothing to do with safety at all. On the other hand, US has its own ways of protecting the job market from foreigners stealing their jobs. I am European that used to work in aviation in US. Just because I had an "essential skill" that could not be done by an American, my company could support me with a favorable visa that allowed me the right to stay and work. But it did not come without cost… in administrative, lawyer, traveling expenses we're talking about $5000 dollars… and it had to be renewed every second year. And despite all the money that was paid I was restricted to work for the company I was with at the time. I could go on and talk about the hassle to get a green card to allow me to work unrestricted. At the same time I have many European friends who have imported American girlfriends to Europe where they're now living and working, relatively troublesome less. We could protect ourselves through aviation, immigration or labour laws.

[Contacttower]

As for policing it, all it takes is for every N reg to be met for a couple of months and the crew if not able to produce a JAR license or a green card/US passport get thrown in the nick and the aircraft impounded until its all sorted out.

I don't think it's quite that simple; the rules are based on whether or not the operator is actually based in the EU, not the nationality of the crew as such. Pretty obvious in the case of someone stepping out of a privately owned Cessna who lives in the UK but for larger aircraft it might not be so clear were exactly the "operator" resides. How that will be enforced and whether or not people come up with elaborate ways to "base" their aircraft outside of Europe or just bite the bullet and comply remains to be seen...

[Airbus_a321]

@Adam
..Europe requires so many pilots that the..

Where do you live, to make such a statement? Pull off your pink glasses. Hundreds of European pilots, most of them having k's of hours on "big" jets, are forced to work abroad, because the Pilotsmarket in Europe is a mess.The market is down :ugh:
It's even difficult to get jobs where you just could fly for food.

Correct me if I am wrong and tell us names. e.g. I am desperately looking for a job in Good Old Europe - since years - :{

[mad_jock]

but for larger aircraft it might not be so clear were exactly the "operator" resides

Hope you like sitting in a cell until they do sort out where the operator resides.

I think its another cunning ploy.

If you manage to get round the operator recidence thing they will then say its a AOC flight. And to prove its not an AOC flight it will bring the residency into question.

Alll they need to do is ground the aircraft subject to investigation for 2-3 days every time they land or even once or twice a month and then having your own transport is useless because you could never garantee it would be available when you wanted it.

[2EggOmelette]

Hi a321,

I was waiting to see someone to jump on that. Over embellished a touch in retrospect, agreed (sorry), but at risk of sounding like a tosser, I wanted to see what would be said.

Yes, there is a market down turn. But its not a constant. The average is still upward trending. Pax numbers are consistently up across the board.
Yes, some carriers are reducing output in order to weather the storm.
Have a look at these 2 links.
The economic downturn will reverse, as it always does. We cannot continually blame the worlds woes on this.

European airline traffic and load factors up in Sep-2011, but outlook mixed for major carriers | CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/european-airline-traffic-and-load-factors-up-in-sep-2011-but-outlook-mixed-for-major-carriers-60656)

4.8% Passenger Growth in 2011 for Europe's Regional Airlines (http://www.eraa.org/newsroom/news-releases/866-48-passenger-growth-in-2011-for-europes-regional-airlines)

As you can see, it aint rosy reading, but its not depressing either.
Loads of new aircraft continue to be purchased all over Europe,
Boeing are expecting a 20% increase of aircrew in Europe due solely on orders over the next 18 years. (A while I know). But focusing on ''now'' in regards to this issue is a mistake. The wider implications over a protracted period - say the next 20 years, are far more wide ranging

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo/pilot_technician_outlook.html

If there is a gluttony of pilots, then why are the new JAA sponsored courses in NZ, Australia and America training record numbers of students? Because there is a demand for them, that's why. Why the airlines prefer them and not multi thousand hour aircrew is a different subject.

No Rose tinted glasses here my friend, all many of us are asking for is a fair and impartial opportunity to remain open so that we CAN look for work without blowing $30k in conversion costs.

On a personal note though a321, I wish you best of luck with the job hunt. I've heard rumours of Thomas Cook hiring, as well as Virgin and Jet2 recently. But there will be others who know better on that count. ;)

Oh yeah, I live in France :\

[Contacttower]

Alll they need to do is ground the aircraft subject to investigation for 2-3 days every time they land or even once or twice a month and then having your own transport is useless because you could never garantee it would be available when you wanted it.

Like I said we'll wait and see what happens. As one of the most prolific posters on the Private Flying forum pointed out, it would appear that most European states (unlike the UK) have not decided to delay implementation of the licencing compliance requirement unitl 2014 for foreign registered EU based aircraft and therefore as of 8th April they are apparently flying illegally if not in possession of EASA licences and if based in a state that has not delayed implementation. However there is little evidence that in the short term there will be any sanctions taken against them...I look forward to hearing the details of any cases that emerge. :oh:

Like the Italian private aircraft tax for example there is often a delay between a law actually being past and the enforcers on the ground actually being aware of it and being in a position to enforce it.

I would hope however that simply being an EU citizen, flying an N-reg in the EU on FAA papers would not, in of itself, be enough grounds for arrest/and or impounding of the aircraft. I would have thought that the authorities would need strong evidence that the aircraft was actually EU based as well to take action.

Ultimately what I think it will come down to is the inclination of individual member states to crack down on suspected offenders...something again which will be interesting to see. Who knows, this could be a massive non issue, personally I just went and got an EASA IR... bit more of a pain for ATPL or indeed (as the article points out) for people who are only planning on staying in the EU for a few years.

[mad_jock]

I would hope however that simply being an EU citizen, flying an N-reg in the EU on FAA papers would not, in of itself, be enough grounds for arrest/and or impounding of the aircraft. I would have thought that the authorities would need strong evidence that the aircraft was actually EU based as well to take action.

I take it you have never been ramp checked in France on a Friday afternoon. They are more than happy to put you in a cell over the weekend until things are sorted out.

It was the same with the VAT certs. If there is a high chance they know they are going to find something they will head over. They will prob leave it 3-4 months to see what moves and then start targeting.

Bit of a bitch though if you get pulled in Italy and then get hammered for the tax after you have sorted things out.

Britain doesn't have that many spot checks and was more than likely quite fly with getting the 2014. Let all the rest fight the fight and by 2014 most of the flak should have died down.

[Contacttower]

I take it you have never been ramp checked in France on a Friday afternoon. They are more than happy to put you in a cell over the weekend until things are sorted out.

Sounds like you're speaking from personal experience...;)

You're right though I have not have had the pleasure of such an ordeal thankfully.

[4x4]

Should there be any FAA N-reg drivers or owners out there who are in a similar position to myself, then please PM me, and we can talk further about this, and whether, as mentioned earlier in this thread, there is any remote possibility of bringing a Discriminatory case against the EU/EASA.

[pilotchute]

Well in oz so far I have worked with Germans,Italians,French,Indians,Argentinians etc. All had the legal right to live and work here be it through marriage,naturalization or a birth parent. If every Aussie with a license to fly who had a euro passport turned up in Europe tomorrow you would have at least a thousand. We have better opportunities here so don't worry. Please stop banging the drum about all non euros taking your jobs,it's boring and BS.

[A Squared]

Also, from a flight training point of view, I PAID, often through the nose, for the honour of flying in American skies during training.....


Uhhh, no, you did not pay one penny for the "honor of flying in American Skies". The US does not charge "navigation" fees or communications fees, or clearance fees, or any other fees having to do with flying an airplane. Very few airports charge landing fees for general aviation aircraft, and those that do aren't the sort you'd normally go while training.

What you paid was to private businesses to rent aircraft, buy fuel, and pay instructors.

You may have paid some fees indirectly to the US for you written exams.

Any you know why you were over in the US paying those people?

For one reason and one reason only; because it was one hell of a lot *less* expensive than the same thing at home.

So, spare us the "paid thru the nose" drivel.

[countbat]

Darn right every single word A Squared says.

[MagicMilkshake]

I dont think this will last many years...at least i hope not. It's ridiculous! Where is Europe going to get all their pilots? Surely after 10 years in europe, with General aviation not THAT big, and coupled with a tight economic situation, their conversions will go something to that of a FAA/TC conversion.

UGH I want to go to Europe and fly NOW! not later :ugh:

[RVR800]

The EASA/JAA/CAA regulations are designed to secure vested interest but to dress that up with spurious "safety" regional concerns that are transparent to anyone with a grain of common sense.

[BIG MACH]

I gained a UK ATPL many years ago and worked in the UK for 15 years before being forced, by redundancy, to move overseas. Throughout my time abroad the UK CAA would always recognise my overseas jet time and would allow me to re-validate my licence on my return to the UK.

I now find that under the jackboot of EASA, because I have not exercised the privileges of my UK licence for 7 years it has become invalid and if I wish to fly in the UK I must take all the exams again.

The UK CAA is now no more than a regional office of EASA and the authority to re-validate my ATPL has been taken from them and surrendered to their masters in Brussells If I needed one reason to get Britain out of the EU this would be a good start. As it happens I can think of more than one.

[fireflybob]

I gained a UK ATPL many years ago and worked in the UK for 15 years before being forced, by redundancy, to move overseas. Throughout my time abroad the UK CAA would always recognise my overseas jet time and would allow me to re-validate my licence on my return to the UK.

I now find that under the jackboot of EASA, because I have not exercised the privileges of my UK licence for 7 years it has become invalid and if I wish to fly in the UK I must take all the exams again.

The UK CAA is now no more than a regional office of EASA and the authority to re-validate my ATPL has been taken from them and surrendered to their masters in Brussells If I needed one reason to get Britain out of the EU this would be a good start. As it happens I can think of more than one.

This is surely an erosion of our basic human rights as British Subjects - this issue needs taking up at the highest political level.

I agree BIG MACH - the sooner UK leaves the EU the better.

[Denti]

Where is Europe going to get all their pilots
@MagicMilkshake: To be honest, that won't be a problem at all. Europes pilot schools churn out a huge surplus of new CPLs each year. European airlines have a long standing tradition and training experience to take on pilots right out of flight school, in the past usually out of their own program, nowadays in many cases third party providers.

[METO power]

On top of that European Company’s making big bucks with student pilots; they charge up to and more than 100’000 Euros for training and after that they put them in the right seat of an A320/B737 with a total flight experience of about 300h for a B-scale salary.

It’s pure BS. If it was a safety issue no US carrier would be allowed to operate in European airspace. Next thing they ask tourists to get a European driver’s license before they can rent a car.

I am also one of the guys who would have never been able to fly if it wasn’t for the USA. I am very grateful for that and I’m sick and tired of Europe. Unfortunately I am not welcome to life in the US.

The next question is about currency; does an EU pilot who is operating an N reg aircraft with an EASA license has to stay current under FAA (2 profchecks)?

[wassupman]

Is it fair to say, if no non-euro pilots are welcomed in Euro, it should be the same in other continents for Euro pilots too.

So, am I right in saying, Euro pilots should be moving back from to EU?Europe from e.g. middle east (raking in $$$ tax free), etc.

Nice one I suppose.

I guess I have to look for a job in Artic!
My future is bleak...

[Piltdown Man]

No pilot is really welcome in Europe. The :mad: who run the system are totally unaccountable and run the system any way they see fit. Their system is not fit for purpose. Who can you complain to? No one! The slime who make the rules work for (the highest scum of all) an EU commissioner - who is unelected. Our system is nothing to be proud of. It's the epitome of a totalitarian bureaucracy.

With any luck they'll all get caught out in an office fire or food poisoning.

[taildrag]

Let's consider why ICAO standards were promulgated in the first place. To ensure some kind of standards in pilot training,one assumes. Once a pilot attains an ICAO licence, it should be recognized by all signatory countries' authorities. Seems simple enough.

As for the US, many airlines send their cadets for training there because a fine weather training area is easy to find, and costs are much lower than in the EU,as stated elsewhere.

Lufthansa has been training such cadets as their source of pilots for years. Quite successfully too, it would appear.

Because of these factors, some American Universities and FTO's tailored courses to train JAR cadets, but these fell by the wayside during the economic downturn. Now, they will have to retool to train to EASA standards.Can we expect training to return to Europe with its weather and expense considerations? Don't bet on that.:ugh:

[GlueBall]

Now, they will have to retool to train to EASA standards

Trouble is that there are more foreign pilots of more foreign air carriers operating into EU airspace and into EU airports than there are "EU trained EASA pilots."

The EASA boys at Bruxelles must be :mad: all over themselves . . . just imagining the horror of so many non EASA trained pilots operating their foreign registered big jets into EASA turf. :{

The Bruxelles boys already must be dabbling with the idea of requiring the rest of the world's pilots to obtain EASA licenses. :ooh:

[Feather #3]

Spent 40 years of a career operating heavy jets into and through Europe.

Until you understand that the EASA rules are really an action in restraint of trade, then you don't get it.

Apparently, even the UK CAA [and/or it's predecessors] accepted that with 2,500hrs [?] jet command in a/c >5,700kg you might not be the ill-trained aviation moron which the Regs assumed.

Rant over!!

G'day ;)

[Dan Winterland]

"So if my licence is inferior, why am I allowed to use it to fly a Hong Kong registered B747 into an airport such as LHR?".

That was a question asked of the CAA recently. Not suprisingly, they had no answer. It's all about making more money out of pilots.

[fireflybob]

This whole EASA thing is an utter farce in my opinion.

99% of the users don't want it but it is being forced on us!

We need to complain loud and clear to our political "servants".

Why on earth we didn't stick to (UK) national licences beggars belief.

We're now snowed under with a mountain of bureaucratic nonsense (with no accountability for those imposing same), a "system" which is unfit for purpose, government officials who haven't got a clue what all this stuff means, not to mention it all costing the users more money as well as wasted time!

A licence is just a bit of paper that says the holder is qualified to exercise a privilege - WHY has it been made so complicated?

[GlueBall]

EASA Executive Director: Patrick Goudou NON PILOT

Patrick Goudou was born in 1950 in Paris, France. After graduating from the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, he went on to train at the Ecole Superieure de l'Aeronautique et de l' Espace in Toulouse with a specialization in aero-engines.
In 1975 he started his professional career at the French General Delegation for Armaments (Delegation Generale pour l'Armement - DGA), where he worked primarily in the aeronautical sector. For ten years he was responsible for testing civil and military aero-engines at the DGA Engines Test Centre at Saclay. He was then appointed to a series of management posts in economic control and industrial strategy, with particular emphasis on the aerospace industry and the question of its restructuring to European level. In 1997 he became Director for Commercial and International Affairs at the French shipyard DCN.
At the beginning of 2002 he was appointed Chief Executive of the French Aeronautical Maintenance Agency (Service de la maintenance aeronautique - SMA), a body responsible for engineering, industrial maintenance and repairs to aircraft, engines and aircraft equipment, as well as for the design and production of aeronautical parts.
He has been Executive Director of the European Aviation Safety Agency since the Agency's start of operations in 2003.
He is married and has three children.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Approvals & standardisation Director - Trevor Woods NON PILOT
Trevor Woods commenced his career as an apprentice at British Aerospace. He graduated in Aeronautical Engineering and was later awarded a Master of Business Administration. Following his graduation, he worked in the Military Aircraft Division of British Aerospace as a Future Projects Engineer in the development of supersonic VSTOL aircraft.
He moved to the UK CAA in the design certification of aircraft and over time covered all aircraft categories from balloons to supersonic transport leading both national and international certification projects including JAA certification of the Next Generation of Boeing 737 aircraft. Through this he was engaged in the development of working arrangements with FAA that encompassed cooperative and concurrent certification along with what was then a new approach to determining the applicable rules for derivative aircraft.
Positions that he held in the UK CAA included Head of UK Aeroplanes and Rotorcraft Certification, and Head of Strategy and Policy for initial and continuing airworthiness. During this period he was an active participant in the JAA Rulemaking Sectorial Team and subsequently the EASA Advisory Group of National Authorities (AGNA). He was also very active in the ICAO Airworthiness Panel which completely overhauled Annex 8 of the Convention.
When EASA was formed he played a central role in the UK CAA’s transition programme to accommodate the initial Basic EASA Regulation. This included organisational restructuring, the transfer of responsibilities to EASA and the work that the UK CAA carried out on behalf of the Agency.
In January 2008 he was appointed as Chief Operating Officer of Air Safety Support International. This is a subsidiary company of the UK CAA providing air safety support and regulation for the UK Overseas Territories.
He is married and has three children.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rulemaking Director: Jules A.J.M. Kneepkens NON PILOT
Jules Kneepkens was born in 1955 and is a Dutch national. After graduating from the Utrecht University in Social Sciences with a focus on International Political Relations and Development Co-operation (University of Amsterdam), Mr Kneepkens started his professional career in 1983 as a project manager in development aid and became soon the Chairman of a secular European network of non-governmental organisations in Brussels.
From 1990 to 1991 he was working for a member of the Dutch parliament. After that he joined the Ministry of Transport, Public Works and Water Management first as Head of the Management and Infrastructure Strategy Division and as of 1996 as Head of the Environment and Country Planning in the Ministry's Civil Aviation Division.
In 2002 he was appointed Director Civil Aviation and International Affairs of the Dutch Directorate of Civil Aviation and Transport where he was responsible for safety, security, international aviation policy, environmental issues, air traffic management and privatisation of airports. At the beginning of 2007 Mr Kneepkens assumed the position of Director General Civil Aviation of the Kingdom of Belgium. In both positions he was a member of the EASA Management Board and held functions as Vice-President of Eurocontrol, board member of the JAA-Board, Chair of the European Security Institute EASTI, Advisory Board member of the Safety Training Institute EASTO in the Netherlands, Chair of the Steering Group Functional Airspace Block Central Europe, Chair of 'International Financial Facility Safety' (IFFAS) established by ICAO.
Jules Kneepkens was appointed Rulemaking Director of the European Aviation Safety Agency as of 1 September 2008 by the Agency's Management Board.
He is married and has two children
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Certification Director: Dr. Norbert Lohl NON PILOT
Dr. Norbert Lohl is a German national. After his University Education in Physics between 1969 and 1976 he started his professional career at the German Aeronautics Research Center DLR on Flight Guidance and Navigation where he made his Doctor-Engineer degree in aeronautics. In 1982 he joined the German Aviation Authority Luftfahrt-Bundesamt (LBA) starting as Project Certification Manager in the Transport Category Airplanes Division. From 1990 he acted as Head of the LBA Regional Office Berlin and became in 1993 Head of the LBA Engine/Equipment Type Certification Division. From 1998 he was Deputy of the LBA Director and Head of the LBA Administration Department. In 2001, he became Head of the LBA Commercial Operators Department. Dr Norbert Lohl has been Director of Certification at EASA since the beginning of 2004.

[MajorLemond]

I have an Aussie ATPL, and a British Passport, and considered Gaining a JAA ATPL for one day I might like to work over there. After finding out the Cost and BS involved with doing it. Not interested.

A mate of mine is a highly experienced (43 years) heavy jet engineer with extensive B777 experience (In Australia). Everything is good until one day they start going on about him not having a "B1" rating on his licence, (after they start transitioning to a euro type licencing system) and therefore not qualified to sign off on some AC.

If thats the way they see it, why does CASA allow JAA/FAA holders to come in and do 2 small exams, pay a few $$ and essentially get handed an ATPL.

[Dan Winterland]

I have managed to hang onto my UK ATPL and convert it into a JAR ATPL while working overseas, but it has been a struggle. It was actually the CAA with their interpretation of the JAR FCLs which were a problem. JAR FCLs said I could keep my old UK rating (with restrictions), the CAA said "no". But now EASA FCL says "yes" and this is enshrined in EASA FCL and the European legistlation which enables it.

I don't have a desire to return to Europe. It's marginalising itself, especially with it's common currency which is rapidly heading towards "Andrex" staus. But my worling ATPL is a validation of my original CAA ATPL, and I have to keep that (or replacement) current if I want to move location for a future employment and another validation.

The notion that I have to take a load of exams on nonesence such as lattitude nuts in a DI because i haven't had a JAR IR for 7 years is nonesence. I have a perfectly good IR from an authority which is at least as demanding as the UK CAA, and I renew it every six months. It's like asking a doctor to retake his Biology GCSE on return to the UK after working elsewhere for 7 years.

[RVR800]

The time is coming when there will be a IN/OUT vote on the EU and EASA wil certainly factor into many pilots decisions when that day comes.

The lack of democracy and the breathtaking arrogance and costs associated with all these things as stated above is becoming more evident day by day as the whole system impodes

There just dont get the concept of democracy; no one voted for EASA and its rules, no members of the public voted, no passengers voted; no pilot voted for these rules. They (EU/EASA) are UNDEMOCRATIC - THAT WILL BE THEIR UNDOING ...

The political climate is changing rapidly:D

[KAG]

This thread is completely ridiculous.

Who wants to make us believe an European pilot can go to north america with his pilot licence and find a job, like that?
He would have to get a green card (citizenship would be better), then get the appropriate licences.
Well, that's exactly the same in Europe, and that's not really new.

This thread is what we can call a non event.

It seems somebody woke up this morning with a headache or something wrong and decided to write some bullcr@p.

[Stick35]

Europe wants to protect the jobs here against oversees pilots, with this easa-thing???? Bullsh*t, cause if i want to work in france as a european citizen, i simply dont get in because i dont speak french. The same goes for Germany. The same goes for Scandinavia etc. Do u think that europe is reacting in these cases??? Hello, europe, where aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you???????

[ArcticChiller]

KAG,
that's not new, you are right. It is the implementation of the regulations. Even with PPLs. If a European pilot wants to fly in the US he needs a validation. It is valid as long as the foreign licence is current. If you want to do that in Europe it needs much more paperwork, it is valid for one year and you can do it only once in a lifetime. The second time an American goes for a Eurotrip with a rental plane he needs a stand-alone EASA PPL. Doesn't matter if he flies triple 7 at work and hundreds of hours in his free-time. My English isn't good enough to tell how stupid those EASA rules are.

[M-ONGO]

The notion that I have to take a load of exams on nonesence such as lattitude nuts in a DI because i haven't had a JAR IR for 7 years is nonesence. I have a perfectly good IR from an authority which is at least as demanding as the UK CAA, and I renew it every six months. It's like asking a doctor to retake his Biology GCSE on return to the UK after working elsewhere for 7 years.

I totally agree Dan Winterland. This 7 year rule is shocking for those of us who operate on other ICAO licences.

[ironbutt57]

So I cannot operate an "N" registered plane based in Europe?

[M-ONGO]

No, you can operate an"N" reg in Europe. There are moves at present to have all EU domiciled crews of foreign registered aircraft have EASA licences though. The other issue here is for those of us with both or more licences, if the JAA,CAA,EASA or whatever it is this weeks IR lapses over seven years we have to do the ATPL exams and a flight test.

[dns]

Sorry guys, I'm a little confused too...

I'm a British citizen but I hold an FAA PPL. Am I allowed to fly a European registered aircraft in Europe?

[aviofreek]

OK so if I'm not mistaken, training wise, if I go to US, do my FAA CPL/ME/IR and wanted to convert to Euro land license, same rules still apply? I.e. pass in all ATPL exams, 15 hour IR training and a skill test for CPL/ME/IR?

[ironbutt57]

An AIP/airlaw exam would make sense for sue, but a full licence?, flown airliners to Europe countless times, just didn't see the air or terra firm being that much different...another EU boondoggle..ETS, this, where does it end?

[SFI145]

What I don't understand is that our 'elected' lawmakers have had two chances of harmonisation in the last 15 years. The first was the birth of the JAA and the second the death of the JAA and birth of EASA. Instead of all this nonsense why did EASA and the FAA not sit down and agree a total commonality between the two licences?
Then we would be close to having a truly international licence in the spirit of the toothless ICAO. If you have a driving licence I can understand it might be restricted to your issuing country due to local procedures. However if I have a UK pilots licence I can fly anywhere in the world in a G registered aircraft. Surely the time has come for ICAO to make a stand and require pilot licences to be valid worldwide on any nationality aircraft.

[BALLSOUT]

I'm a British citizen but I hold an FAA PPL. Am I allowed to fly a European registered aircraft in Europe?You can at the moment as there is an exemption until April 2014. After then you can only fly N registered aircraft in Europe on an FAA license. You can probably extend the deadline by another year by asking for a validation from April 2014, this will last until April 2015.The further problem to this is there will be few N registered aircraft in Europe by then as if they live in Europe, they will have to be re-registered or removed from Europe. As far as PPL's are concerned, I doubt if there will be much difficulty in transferring to EASA, unless you have a medical problem of course. You would then have to consider either the NPPL in the UK, or the E LAPL for the whole of Europe.

[WorkingHard]

"I'm a British citizen but I hold an FAA PPL. Am I allowed to fly a European registered aircraft in Europe"

Well I am a British citizen with a British registered C172 and a British PPL valid for life BUT from April 2014 it will be illigal to fly my own aircraft unless i have converted my valid for life PPL to a 5 year very costly EASA licence !!!!

[BALLSOUT]

Well I am a British citizen with a British registered C172 and a British PPL valid for life BUT from April 2014 it will be illigal to fly my own aircraft unless i have converted my valid for life PPL to a 5 year very costly EASA licence !!!!I believe the EASA license is also a lifetime one. You will also be able to fly it on an LAPL, ( Light Aircraft Pilots License) I expect this will be cheaper than the PPL and only needs your medical carried out by your own GP.

[aviofreek]

ICAO - established April 1947 by leading aviation professionals
EASA - established July 2002 by cheap non-aviation pencil pushers and bean counters

ICAO - tries to fight global warming with knowledge and cutting edge technology
EASA - fights everyone and dictates financial fees to fight global warming (??!!!)

ICAO - unique license for an aviation professional (because laws of physics and air is the same everywhere on the planet)
EASA - special, very expensive "european" license for anyone wishing to fly in (not so)United states of Europe, regardless of your experience and professionalism (because air and laws of physics are somehow different on the Old continent than the rest of our planet)

ICAO - promotes aviation on worldwide basis
EASA - closes aviation for EVERYONE

EASA, please take off your pants and sit at the end of a very long and wide vertical pole.
Thanks

[WorkingHard]

BALLSOUT - you may well be correct but that licence will not get me into the airways for longer journeys and will considerably reduce my despatch rate and as far as I am aware is restricted to VFR only.
As others have said it is a pointless exercise by pointless bureaucrats with little knowledge of the real world.

[BALLSOUT]

WorkingHard You may well be correct in what you say and i don't disagree with you. I was merely confirming what was now available, be it good or bad. I don't think it's just aviation, the lunatics seem to be running most asylums these days!

[Dan Winterland]

It's just pointless regulation with little regard to pilot's real skills or experience.

[Desert185]

"I'm a British citizen but I hold an FAA PPL. Am I allowed to fly a European registered aircraft in Europe"

Well I am a British citizen with a British registered C172 and a British PPL valid for life BUT from April 2014 it will be illigal to fly my own aircraft unless i have converted my valid for life PPL to a 5 year very costly EASA licence !!!!

Bureaucratic control, over-taxation and loss of freedom. Time for another tea party, methinks. Resistance is not always futile...

Sad. Sorry folks. Hopefully, we in America will break the trend this November before its too late.

[BristolScout]

It would indeed have been tremendous if EASA and FAA could have sat down and thrashed out a common licence standard. Unfortunately, the US has seen fit to file so many differences with ICAO Annex 1 over the years that there has never been sufficient common ground.

[RVR800]

All this is beaurocratic vested interest dressed up with spurious "safety" related issues - its also essentially none-democratic... but hey this is the EU :ugh:

[fdr]

There are numerous jurisdictions where the EU licence is being used as a basis of the 3rd states licence, and there are little caveats that the validation is only effective with the continued validity of the basic licence.... Your Easa licence may become a mill stone to your 3rd party flying... Check your contracts and locall Part 61 equivalents....

Good luck.