Sooo, You Want to Fly for Korean Airlines Do You?

[Keylime]

Just talking with a fellow aviator who flies for Korean Airlines. He was telling me about an incident which occurred back on December 1, 2011. Seems an expat captain on a B777-300ER from ICN-BKK was assaulted by a Korean engineer in Bangkok.
As the story goes, after landing in Bangkok the captain chose to shutdown an engine during taxi to the gate as the aircraft was rather light weight and was requiring constant braking to maintain a safe taxi speed because of the residual thrust of the GE90 engines. (If you haven't flown this aircraft the GE engines put out a lot of thrust even at idle) Supposedly, KAL like many airlines has advisory pages on each airport (called K-pages, how original). The advisory for BKK "recommends"(not mandatory, not procedure) leaving both engines running taxiing to the gate as there is a slight upslope and to prevent jet blast damage. This is normal if you are flying some of the 777's with the less powerful Pratt & Whitney engines. The aircraft was taxied to the gate and parked with the remaining engine at idle.
After the passengers had disembarked, the engineer came on the aircraft and started yelling at the first officer in Korean. The captain was standing in the cockpit doorway watching this situation going on in first class. Finally, he asked what was going on and the engineer came up to him and started yelling at him in poor, broken English "you violate procedure, you violate Jeppesen, you shutdown engine". The captain told him to get out of his face and stop yelling. Then the engineer, put his hands on the captain and told him to get out of his way. The captain told him to back off and reached for the engineer's ID attached to his pocket. The engineer then shoved the captain and he fell back into the cockpit. In the ensuing struggle, the engineer grabbed the captain from behind and grabbed his left arm and pulled him around. As a result of this, the captain has a shoulder injury and has been unable to return to work for two months. He is undergoing medical treatment. KAL has stopped his pay. As of this posting, no punishment for the engineer. Probably has been promoted and given a pay raise for assaulting a foreigner.
According to my contact, the disrespect toward foreigners by the korean employees continues to escalate. First officers tell captains they don't have to do what they ask them to do because they are foreigners. Cabin crew and Pursers disregard captain's authority. Etc. etc. Meanwhile KAL continues to have incident after incident from ATC violations to nearly running aircraft out of gas, and that is what we know about.
Up until this point the abuse has been mostly verbal. This is a whole new escalation. He told me this attitude permeates Korean Airlines from the top management all the way to the lowest level. The system is totally dysfunctional. You have to need a job awfully bad to put up with this unprofessional garbage. Buyer beware.

[haejangkuk]

What a load of crock!

The arrogant :mad: thought he could bully and push a puny Oriental around. So when the tables were turned, all sorts of baseless and inciendary accusation came about. Typical fork tongue syndrome!

This is just deserts for the sort of riff raffs that seek fortune in the Orient, all the time crying foul to be seen to be on the high lofty road. Human dregs hoisted well above their stations!

[oceancrosser]

By his post I think haejankuk has given us a valuable insight into Korean thinking, whether or not the OP´s story is accurate or not.

I went to Seoul for the whole KAL charade (silly 8 hour medical) and went through the process, got the job offer, but after observing things and meeting a few expats in a bar for quiet discussion, decided to stay away.

[BobnSpike]

That post adds credence to the op's story.

[free at last]

That is why a expat is required to flights to the USA. With you'r thinking you will never advance.:ugh:

[Captain Dart]

Haenjangkuk has also just had a go at Westerners on the Fragrant Harbour forum.

He seems to like trolling on both Korean and Hong Kong matters. Don't feed him.

[Andu]

Post # 2 more or less confirms something I heard a long time ago... that every national/racial group in this world secretly considers that their national/racial group is superior to every other national/racial group, whereas the Koreans KNOW that theirs is.

I know quite a few people who have worked in Korea (and some who are still working there). I think it would be true to say that very, very few (if any) wax lyrical about the experience.

[stonevalley]

Their history was so insular and they never had to learn to get along with another people unless you count the Japanese colonisation and post war US bases.

Now their economy and wealth has far outpaced their cultural and emotional ability to get on with other nationalities in stressful situations.

That said they are nice and polite but I'd shy from working for a Korean company since the way people respond to you is determined by status and some haven't worked out where you stand.

No doubt there are happy stories around too

[kinteafrokunta]

Ouch, ouch, ouch! Haejangkuk, you sure rock; these fellas never learn, always trying to **** around where they eat and sometimes into what they eat too! Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[Brian Abraham]

Perhaps the Delta report needs dusting off and a reread???

[Keylime]

Perhaps the Delta report needs dusting off and a reread???

I have seen it. It is quite a read. It is pretty thick.

[Airbubba]

Perhaps the Delta report needs dusting off and a reread???


That's ancient history by now and the Deltoids are not in a position to tell anybody else how to run an airline, they went bankrupt and gave up their pensions and pay in 2005. Copilots on cargo airlines make more than Delta captains these days.:eek:

Maybe they will contract KE as consultants on how to make a profit in the flying business.:)

There is some bogus Delta 'report' done by a sacked KE Kiwi on the 'net that floats around with typical wacko expat stuff about how to fasten shoulder harnesses and when to lower the armrests and other wisdom. It is not all bad but certainly wasn't written by a Delta pilot.:=

See: korean airlines internal audit safety report (http://www.flight.org/blog/2009/10/01/korean-airlines-internal-audit-report-an-airline-waiting-to-happen/)

Korean used to be the FedEx of Asia with their frequent hull losses, it does seem that they have cleaned up their act.

[ironbutt57]

Close friend and former colleague of mine did a stint there, advised against it, and "saw many reasons why the US should vacate the DMZ and leave them to their own devices"...

[lomapaseo]

please provide a source for this rumour

1st hand, 2nd hand, 3rd hand?

news link, etc.

Lots of folks are getting wound up already, canceling trips, turning in their badges etc.

[Basil]

A colleague went to fly for Korean. Already a trainer, when offered line checking, he politely declined. That appointment would have entailed flying with two locals without his hands within reach of the controls.
Personally, I'd only passenger with the outfit if I was desperate to travel.

[Keylime]

Loma paseo:

After I heard this story from my buddy, I had him put me in touch with the expat who was assaulted. This guy is a very highly qualified pilot. Prior linecheck experience with a major. 15 years training experience. Talked to the guy for about 30 minutes. You can't make this stuff up.

[Keylime]

That's ancient history by now and the Deltoids are not in a position to tell anybody else how to run an airline, they went bankrupt and gave up their pensions and pay in 2005. Copilots on cargo airlines make more than Delta captains these days.

Maybe they will contract KE as consultants on how to make a profit in the flying business.

There is some bogus Delta 'report' done by a sacked KE Kiwi on the 'net that floats around with typical wacko expat stuff about how to fasten shoulder harnesses and when to lower the armrests and other wisdom. It is not all bad but certainly wasn't written by a Delta pilot.

See: korean airlines internal audit safety report

Korean used to be the FedEx of Asia with their frequent hull losses, it does seem that they have cleaned up their act.


Airbubba:

The audit I saw is not the one posted by the Kiwi. I don't know where that came from. The one I saw was the original one done by the Delta team.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Oh, no! He didn't follow the K Pagee?

For those of you unfamiliar, any "suggested" is mandatory. The earliest you should do something is when you must do something - if not earlier.

Thou shalt not have grey areas.

For example, if the minimum alt for autopilot engagement is 400', then that means its mandatory, to think you could it later would create a grey area or an option.

That also means that on an approach, if the minimums are 200', you don't look for the runway until you get to 200'. Seriously.

[JW411]

I find this a very interesting thread. I have a friend who was on an MD-11 contract with KAL when he had a serious heart problem in Korea. He was whisked into hospital and received excellent treatment. When he was well enough, he was casevaced back to Europe where he made an excellent recovery.

All bills were taken care of by KAL and they continued to pay him for a whole year after his problem occured.

Things have obviously changed?

[Basil]

JW411,
All bills were taken care of by KAL and they continued to pay him for a whole year after his problem occured.
That's good to hear. When I worked for Cathay they were very good in that respect - unlike a well known Gulf outfit which was in the habit of dumping sick expat employees out of hand.

[Airbubba]

Airbubba:

The audit I saw is not the one posted by the Kiwi. I don't know where that came from. The one I saw was the original one done by the Delta team.

Do you know if the actual audit document is online somewhere? Was the real Delta audit of Korean publicly released, or, if not, how did you run across it?

The document I linked to seems to be often bandied about as the real deal but some of us can see that it clearly was not written by Delta pilots or even Americans. I believe Alex Paterson may have posted it on his website years ago but it now seems to be removed.

Some of the Ozmate AFAP alums were trying to convince me that these were the actual DL-KE audit findings but observations like "Captain over pattered [sic] the FO so much on the approach, the FO was having difficulty concentrating on the flying." and "Loosening of collar and tie reduces fatigue and should be encouraged." tells me that the author(s) weren't a bunch of good ole boys from Atlanta.:)

And like I said, the Kiwi comments are not all bad, probably authentic but very subjective observations of an individual in response to a request for inputs.

[SRS]

the history the first audit was by a South African Pilot ( not Kiwi). It was filed for the benefit of the Delta reorganization (2000 I believe) The second diatribe was from a failed ex-Delta pilot who was also fired from Delta for fraud. He certainly had some valid points but was a real pain.

[Airbubba]

The second diatribe was from a failed ex-Delta pilot who was also fired from Delta for fraud. He certainly had some valid points but was a real pain.

It sure wouldn't be the first (or last) time that a fired pilot suddenly reinvents himself as an 'aviation consultant'.

"I couldn't do my own job without getting canned - pay me to show you how to run your operation!"

Some of the folks who pop up with sound bites on CNN and the like after an aviation incident have very colorful employment histories.

Anyway, the 'Delta Audit of Korean Airlines' has been sighted (and cited) more than Elvis but no one seems to really have a copy after all these years.

[SRS]

I recall that he had no time on the 777 (767 time) and started by telling the Koreans how to fly the aircraft they operated for the last 10 years!

[Turbine D]

Airbubba,

I think this may be what you are looking for... (not exactly sure)

korean airlines internal audit safety report (http://www.flight.org/blog/2009/10/01/korean-airlines-internal-audit-report-an-airline-waiting-to-happen/)

It came via B-HKD's post in the Tech Log. There are 43 items mentioned in the body of the report. But note the introduction, there is a caveat...

Oh, you need to download the report, it is in pdf form, from the gray block towards the bottom of the blog.

TD

[Keylime]

Just to give the readers some of the time lines of Korean Airline's checkered history. The audit was initiated after the crash of KAL 801 in 1997 in Guam. Lose your life but don't lose face. Much of the progress and change KAL made after Dave Greenberg was there has fallen by the wayside. From some of the incidents that have occurred over there it is a miracle they haven't had another Guam. It must be because of all of that foreign "riff-raff".


Korean Airlines Internal Audit Report – an airline waiting to happen
October 1, 2009


The following internal safety audit report into Korean Airlines flying operations was conducted in September 1998 by an external New Zealand check and training pilot. The internal safety audit report was allegedly part of a wider program being overseen by Delta Airlines of America. It was never intended to be public.
The report was allegedly required by the US Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) and insurance companies in the aftermath of the Korean Airlines B747 crash at Guam on 06/08/97 (Flight 801) as a precursor to the setting up of a proposed code sharing arrangement between KAL and Delta Airlines. Prior to any bilateral code share arrangement it is typical to have both organisations conduct mutual audits to satisfy their own internal management, insurance agencies and external legislating authorities.
According to The Wall Street Journal story of 8th April 1999, KAL Executive Vice President Yi-Taek Shim has admitted that “the leaked audit was an internal report written by an expatriate KAL pilot who no longer works for the airline.”
The audit reveals an endemic level of complacency, arrogance and incompetence pervading all sections of Korean Airlines flight operations and apparently was reportedly rejected by Korean Airlines management at that time. Since that time, however, the airline has welcomed Western operational influences and is slowly overhauling the dangerous culture of incompetence that plagues the crew.
Between 1970 and 1999 Korean Air wrote off 16 aircraft in serious incidents and accidents, with the loss of over 700 lives. If safety is no accident, neither is their high accident record. This report demonstrates why.
In 2000 – after acknowledging that they were an international disgrace – Korean Air recruited David Greenberg, a retired Delta Air Lines vice president, to run its operations. He was charged with the impossible task of rescuing the airline from destroying itself. He introduced merit based promotion and cracked down on the corrupt friendship based fast-track promotions for the inner circle of politically aligned pilots, he introduced a new and improved rigorous training program for pilots and made attempts at introducing a western style of cockpit resource management to enhance crew communications. On the surface KAL they seem to have been mildly successful; their last passenger fatal accident was the same one that inspired this report.
Some say Korean are an accident waiting to happen. In the meantime, however, they seem to be an airline waiting to happen. Time will tell.
This blog was originally published on flight.org in 2006.

[tu144]

What about Asiana? What's it like working for them? Same thing or better?

[SRS]

Yes, I stand corrected. Many of the South Africans obtained NZ and Aussie nationality. When the left SA the future was far some certain. I guess I always considered him South African. G

[james ozzie]

I met a retired ex-pat captain who flew one of the heavy KAL tri-jets (I think) with a flight engineer. He said that every command given to his Korean FO was refererred back to the older flight engineer, by means of an anxious glance, for the "the nod". Apparently, by tradition the FE had automatic seniority because of his age.

He said the whole time he felt like he had "a saboteur on the flight deck."

And someone else descibed an ex-pat Captain and local FO fighting with opposite yoke inputs on a take off - captain pulling up & FO pushing forward. Eventually smacked the nose down and wrote off the hull. Can anyone verify that caper?

[twentyyearstoolate]

Having worked in Korea for 5 years, I can verify that the Korean culture has direct safety impacts on the flight. Whether you like or dislike the culture is a matter of personal opinion, but it definitely does not belong on a flight deck.

Some of the FO's and Captains I flew with were really nice, but the entire experience I had was one that made me really dislike going to work. The Korean work environment is one of hostility, stress and they constantly worry about everything.

[Keylime]

Having worked in Korea for 5 years, I can verify that the Korean culture has direct safety impacts on the flight. Whether you like or dislike the culture is a matter of personal opinion, but it definitely does not belong on a flight deck.


Read the chapter in Malcolm Gladwell's book "The Outliers". He is too kind to them. One expat who flew over there said, "There is a difference between Korean culture and Korean Air culture." He described the Korean Air culture as "dysfunctional".

[PantLoad]

You see, the foreign captain demonstrated poor CRM. That's the root
cause of this and most other problems....

Fly safe,

PantLoad


(I'm joking, of course!)

[Dan Winterland]

A friend of mine spent two years there on a 744 command contract. He mentioned there were some 'testing' moments. For example, when he emerged from the bunk on cessation of his scheduled rest to find he was alone on the flight deck! After that incident, he always took his rest in the seat.

Two years was enough for him.

[Airbubba]

Airbubba,

I think this may be what you are looking for... (not exactly sure)

korean airlines internal audit safety report


Thanks but I believe that is the same 'audit report' I cited earlier in this thread.

[zekeigo]

Interesting thread.
Korea is no different than China, Japan or any other Asian country.
If western pilots look for Jobs in Asia is because their options are scarse.
Korean Air is not a bad place to work, one must realize that this is the best commuting contract right now. There are hundreds of pilots applying every month, but the failure rate are fairly high. Korean Air has reputation for being the worse place to work, but other airlines in Asia are worse than Korean Air, Been there Done that, not to mention airlines in Arab countries.
So, If you want to join KAL, rest assured that you will get your days off as planned, your family will be seated in business class with confirmed space (Economy upgrade to Prestige class), and IF you are smart, you’ll remain quiet and do KAL procedures.
Fly Safe.

[Keylime]

Zekeigo:

So, If you want to join KAL, rest assured that you will get your days off as planned, your family will be seated in business class with confirmed space (Economy upgrade to Prestige class), and IF you are smart, you’ll remain quiet and do KAL procedures.
Fly Safe.

You forgot one other detail. It's OK if a korean employee wants to assault you.

[Basil]

you’ll remain quiet and do KAL procedures
Except that 'KAL procedures' are something we, with difficulty, got rid of in the West. We don't think we are superior; for instance I would not wish to come up against Korean military BUT I do believe that we have, over the past 50 years, developed a safer way of flying civil transport aircraft. That's all.

[framer]

If western pilots look for Jobs in Asia is because their options are scarse.

Rubbish. I did it for the fun and adventure. Worked out well too :)

[400drvr]

Korean Air is not a bad place to work, one must realize that this is the best commuting contract right now. There are hundreds of pilots applying every month, but the failure rate are fairly high. Korean Air has reputation for being the worse place to work, but other airlines in Asia are worse than Korean Air, Been there Done that, not to mention airlines in Arab countries.


Yep. I tell guys that are thinking about coming to KAL it's what you make of it. You can be happy or unhappy, it's your choice. Nothing is perfect and that's why I ended up here, looking for something a little better than what I had. KAL is not perfect but it's much better than where I was before. So keep your head down, do the best you can with the procedures, and take your days off as planned.

[Tex Johnson]

I got this one sent through from a buddy of mine who bailed from KAL after 12 months. His crewing company wanted to know why he was leaving, so he told 'em. Pretty much sums it up....


Hi Xxxxxx,

The shrinking value of the USD, the attitude to the foreign pilots, the lack of adequate training and the poor attitude to flight safety are all reasons to leave KAL.

I have been told that the last time the foreign pilot reps approached the company about the non-competitive salary package, they were told it was not going to change and it was none of their business. The Korean crews would obviously be happy to see all of us go, but I fear for the flying public if that happens. When the foreign training advisor was asked to gather information on current issues concerning the foreign pilot group, he was made a pariah and accused of trying to form a union. The manager who asked him to gather the information denied ever making the request. The foreign manager resigned from his post as a result. A sad loss for Korean (although I doubt they looked at it that way), as the few foreigners who work in flight ops management really do try to make a difference.

The failure rate for the interview process is purely the result of the union pilots input at the simulator stage. The state of serviceability of the 777 simulator is a complete joke for a major airline. Candidates are sometimes asked to do irrelevant and ridiculous tasks and are failed for nonsense. From what I have seen of the skill level of the local KAL crews, few, if any of them would ever pass the interview and simulator. KAL needs more foreign pilots, not just to make up the numbers, but because the standard of many of the Korean crews is abysmal. If they are to continue on their current accident free run, more Korean pilots are not the answer. I realise you make your living employing pilots for KAL, but if I knew 18 months ago what I know now about KAL, I would not have applied. After a while I guess some people can become immune to what is going on around them, but I found it very frustrating.

I have kept records of some of the ridiculous incidents that have taken place during my tenure at KAL, and of the attitudes of the crews I have flown with, and their responses to those incidents. The average Korean pilots understanding of the aircraft he is flying and of the operation in general is very limited. You can teach a monkey to follow a procedure, but not to understand what he is trying to achieve. When something out of the ordinary happens, they are all at sea.

The poor standards are not entirely the Korean pilots fault. Korean managements attitude to safety is appalling. Hardly surprising when you consider they have a raffle every couple of years and change all the managers. People are not promoted to management because they have any talent or ability, let alone a desire to see things change for the better. They run the airline like a private club. There is no continuity or accountability at the flight operations management level. They send us emails about improving safety, but nobody ever replied or even acknowledged any emails I sent. The changes to CAT3 operations last year were a classic example. None of the line crews I flew with understood what they were doing. At a recurrent ground school a local LCP admitted he had no clue either, and when I explained the correct procedures to he and two local FO's told me that I did not understand the concept of all weather operations (I must have been wrong for the past 18 years). Recurrent tests and exams are always accompanied by a set of answers, so there is no attempt to improve knowledge or standards, just to make sure everyone passes and the operation continues. My radio licence test consisted of attending a classroom to watch the movie "Flightplan" (with Jodie Foster) and an 80's movie about a couple of guys ferrying Pawnees across the Pacific. Attendance was mandatory. Bored out of my skull, I slept through the second movie. My Radio Licence turned up a few weeks later.

I have attended two safety meetings, which local management are supposed to attend. On both occasions they were absent during the meetings and only turned up for the free buffet and drinks after the meeting. We received notices to flight crew that were only published in Korean. When I found mistakes in the Oral test for my annual check, the Korean version of the test was changed, but not the English version. On both of my final line checks I was exposed to incompetence and interference from my 'supporting' LCP's. Their knowledge of the aircraft is appalling and their idea of competence is to be able to quote procedures parrot fashion without understanding what they are doing, or even if it is appropriate to the situation. Everything is a competition and comes down to who is right, rather than what is right. My LIP (who had an extremely poor command of English) gave me bad grades because I followed SOP rather than follow his unsafe, non-standard, "time saving" techniques. When I queried this he threw my training folder at me and fed me a bull**** line about how the chief pilot told him he could do it the SOP way or his own way. He struggled on the radio on most of our training sectors and did not exhibit a single trait that would have made him an instructor in any other airline. Another expat pilot told me he had the same instructor when he joined and experienced similar problems.

Crews refuse to de-ice their aircraft because they consider it macho to take off with an ice covered aeroplane. I have had debates with Korean captains on more than one occasion about the state of the aircraft, and have been challenged by ground engineers for recommending to the operating captain that we remove the ice and snow that was evident on the aircraft. An auditor told me how de-icing staff were caught diluting de-icing fluid and selling the balance back to the fluid provider, and then signing the fluid off as 100%.

I have operated flights where, for 10 hours, the Korean first officer refuses to speak to me because he doesn't like foreigners. This is after I have introduced myself and done everything possible to be extremely polite and accommodating. I have spent almost 4 hours in the cockpit without any contact from the cabin. The cabin crew close all the window shades immediately after takeoff regardless of what time of day it is, so if the cockpit crew were asleep, dead or whatever and the aircraft was intercepted, nobody would know. Maybe another KAL 007 incident would change that. We are required to attend a briefing before every flight with the cabin crew, and if the operating captain is Korean, the whole thing is done in Korean. When I brief, the cabin crew understand little if any of what I say, (if their subsequent questions are any indication). CRM is non-existent and there is often a palpable animosity between flight and cabin crew.

We are forced to fly with all radios blaring, the loudspeaker turned up and a headset on, with cabin calls, PA's, radio chatter and ATC all mixed into one garbled barrage of sound. Apparently this is so we don't miss any ATC calls. Of course, it has the opposite effect, but it's a procedure, so it must be followed without regard for common sense. Crews ask me to be a safety pilot and then conduct all their briefings and conversation in Korean and ignore me when I point out threats to safety. I have seen crews attempt to descend through their cleared level and then argue with me that they are right, attempt to taxi across active runways when told to hold short, ignore ATC speed instructions, fight with each other over who is right, captains yelling at FO's...all the things that KAL supposedly don't do any more. Colleagues have seen worse than this. I won't act as safety pilot any more as my presence on the flight deck in the event of any incident will no doubt see the finger pointed at me for not preventing the situation.

Dispatchers have a poor command of English, so any problems arising from incorrect or nonsensical flight plans are difficult to resolve. They assume they are in command of the flight and come up with ridiculous responses to serious situations. Yet the Korean crews will follow the dispatchers guidance without question. A 747 with smoke in the cockpit was told to continue, as was a 777 mid-Pacific with a fuel leak. The 747 avoided disaster through pure chance. Luckily the 777 had an expat on board and diverted to Anchorage.

I don't think it's a matter of if KAL have another accident, but when. They simply don't want to change their poor safety culture because it may be painful and involve some short term loss of face for the older guys. Making English the required language for all flight operations staff (and enforcing the rule) would be a good start. Crews always fall back on the few manuals that are published in Korean, and ignore those that are only presented in English. Doing away with the Korean books would be difficult for a while but would ultimately improve operations, crew knowledge and understanding, and ultimately safety.

It could the best airline, and should be the best job in the world, but the Koreans don't seem to want that to happen.

Regards,

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx

[nabanoba]

I've lived in Korea for the past 2 years and the above post sums-up Korean culture better than any other that I've seen. It is the same for them in every walk of life. They don't want things done correctly they want it done due to procedure. This is instilled in them during their formative years where they suffer the horrors of the Korean education system. They are incredibly nationalistic and proud as this is the first thing taught to them in schools and some possess a healthy disregard and fear of foreigners. That being said, they are in the minority these days and a lot of Koreans are great. The education system teaches students the answer rather than why it's the answer leading to a nation that don't question things, ask why or mistrust what they hear. A truly dangerous thought when put in charge of an aeroplane.

[Flying Daggers]

a buddy of mine sent me this to think it over before applying there

Cultural Safety in Korean Air

Cultural safety in Korean Air using the data gathered by FMAQ in 1998. According to the FMAQ data, Dr. Helmrich and the research team believes that currently Korean Air flight crews do not believe the senior management respects their suggestions on safety. However, there are no data in correlation to the number of suggestions, if at all made by flight crews.

A representative aspect of the Korean culture is "Face" (for a lack of a better term). A person’s actions and thoughts are in direct correlation to the position he or she holds and demands respect simply because of the position. If a subordinate does not give respect to the person, then that person's face is lost. Therefore, respect is not earned by the superior but demanded, which causes the subordinate to be humble.

(Question) "Has anybody questioned an action or a decision which you believe to be detrimental to safety?" "If not, why not?" This is Korean Air's current culture. Culture is not the responsibility of any individual, and certainly no individual is able to change culture. There are roles and standards for individuals in any culture. It is difficult at best to change and/or remove wrong or unhelpful habits without the effort of all involved. It would be difficult to redirect the Korean culture, which would be more conducive to safety if the people involved expect others to do it for them.

As long as save face prevails over safety they're simply screwed. Needless to say any expat working there will be guilty by default regardless whether right or wrong. What a disgrace to the whole aviation world.

[tu144]

After reading this I will make sure that my friends and family members do not fly Korean Air. So I guess its only thanks to Boeing and Airbus for making such modern and advanced planes that there hasn't been a Pepsi logo in a smoking crater lately.

[DCS99]

Having lived in Korea, albeit working on the ground at Kimpo 20+ years ago, I know one thing:

Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.:eek:

I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!

[sabenaboy]

I just read about this incident (Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4400bee5&opt=1)) in the ME-forum (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/458076-ek-380-capts-needed-kal.html).

Not hard to understand why these things happen in Korean after reading some posts of this thread.

What really worries me most, is the fact that this A380 returned to Seoul with only 1 hour delay. How thorough an inspection must that have been?

[9.G]

Sb, you need to direct that question to the Belgian National, TRE from airbus who was PIC on that flight. :ok:

[protect essential]

I lasted nine months. I ignored all the posts about the "issues" there, to my regret.

TEX JOHNSONS' buddy does not exagerate. I experienced most of the things he mentioned in my short tenure. YES, the commuting contract works like clockwork; YES, you get your requested days off each month; YES, the aircraft are well maintained and YES you commute in J/Y(at least while I was there).

BUT, I don't think most of us got into this business because our priority was a good commuting contract. I got and stayed in this business because it was fun; I enjoyed the cammaraderie and professionalism of my colleagues and I looked forward to going to work each and every trip.

KAL took all the fun out of flying and I dreded each and every month, that flight back to ICN. It was no way to live or work for me.

[nabanoba]

How times have changed DCS99. The current generation are the most effeminate, scared and unintimidating men on the planet. More have had plastic surgery than been in fights.

[Prince Rupert]

From haejangkook
The arrogant a***hole thought he could bully and push a puny Oriental around. So when the tables were turned, all sorts of baseless and inciendary accusation came about.


From DCS99
Having lived in Korea, albeit working on the ground at Kimpo 20+ years ago, I know one thing:

Never start a fight with a Korean man - or woman.
They're all hard as nails.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I don't know whether the compulsory military service toughens them up, but trust me, don't even think of swinging a punch. And I'm a hard man!

Sorry to digress here and in no way am I advocating fistcuffs to sort out problems. It was a real incident I witnessed during my pub crawling days in Itaewon to ward off the depression and drudgerry of life in Seoul. Some big size American troops from the nearby Yongsan Base picked a a fight with some puny looking Nepalis. There were six Yanks and four Nepalis in the fracas; the end result, the four Nepalis ended up with minor bruises and all six Yanks were carted off in the ambulance to the hospital! I thought the alcohol had played tricks on my eyes but my drinking pals who were equally bemused, confirmed that the Yanks were beaten up real bad!

I left KAL not only because of all the sh*t that Tex Johnson and Keyline wrote about, I also had issues with some of the Alteon instructors who appeared nice on the surface but secretly doing the dirty jobs at their master's behest. protect essential is right on the money, life in KAL killed part of me.

[boofhead]

I did 5 years on the 744 with KE. They broke my contract twice, but who's counting? I also paid $500 for being 20 minutes late at report time, but that was my fault and I deserved it.
However all that has been said about the culture is true. I spent a lot of time on the flight deck with my FO and I might as well have been alone. A new FO would give me the brief, telling me what number course he had attended at Jeju, if he was married and how many kids he had, then shut up for the rest of the flight.
But don't judge the Koreans by KE. The pilots who work for KE are completely different to the man in the street, who would give you all his money and all his time if you looked like you would need it more than he did. They can be wonderful people and you will think that the Koreans who work for the airline are from a different planet altogether.
KE pilots are arrogant and ignorant, and if you listen carefully, they are arrogant about their ignorance, thinking that this proves their manhood or something. It is true that, despite all the outside influences on their culture, a Korean FO would say nothing to his captain to stop the airplane being flown into the side of a mountain.
A good airline culture will never replace the KE culture, despite accidents that have been caused by this. The new Jeju cadets have to pick up this same culture or else they will be frozen out.
The older Korean Captains hate the foreigners, but they hate the Jeju pilots worse.
They have SOPs but do not make the mistake of following them. Better to do what the Korean Captain tells you, no matter how stupid it might seem. The FOs will report every word you say to the Chief Pilot and they have a lot of influence on the foreign pilots, especially renewal of contracts. Some of them might appear to be friendly toward the foreign pilots, but if they truly were, their own people would have ostracised them. It is an act, designed to elicit information that can be used against you.
If you make a small error during your sim check, you can be summarily fired, but the same rule does not apply to the Korean pilot. Seniority seems strange at times, but it is all based on the pilots' date of appointment to the first squadron he worked at in the Air Force. And if the FO flew the F4, while the Captain flew C130s, the FO will be the real boss on your flight.
Don't expect them to honour their word, and don't expect to get anything more than you actually get, and enjoy the flying.
Oh, and enjoy the medicals!

[PLovett]

Reading this thread is frightening when one considers they are sharing your airspace but it doesn't surprise me. One of the companies that I have worked for in Australia once had a contract to train ab-initio pilots for KE. The horror stories started there and it seems there was never much improvement after that.

Some big size American troops from the nearby Yongsan Base picked a a fight with some puny looking Nepalis. There were six Yanks and four Nepalis in the fracas; the end result, the four Nepalis ended up with minor bruises and all six Yanks were carted off in the ambulance to the hospital! I thought the alcohol had played tricks on my eyes but my drinking pals who were equally bemused, confirmed that the Yanks were beaten up real bad!


Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them.

[GAPSTER]

"Sounds like they were Gurkhas and nobody in their right mind picks on them"......

.......nobody except our pathetic excuse for a government who conveniently forget the years of dedicated service put in by these guys and their families.

[Basil]

GAPSTER,
Your location noted but, if you haven't read this (http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/179392-yet-another-tosser.html) already, it provides a range of army opinion.

[wassupman]

As it sounds like a story for a movie, but I do have to agree but I've come across there are places where the locals do seem to be more 'powerful' towards the foreigners be it in the west or east.

At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shame.

My view, if foreigner land are not as same as home and you expect to be treated higher or same way as in home, why bother leaving home then? Work in the US Im sure it's a great place to work and everyone speaks English and the work ethics are the best instead of whinging about foreigners. The grass is greener on the other side? I think its fair to say that.

[TeachMe]

I'm faculty at a Korean university. Two points to make:

1 - It is not about being treated like back home, it is about being treated equal to a Korean with the same skills and experience. Back home we all run under the same rules. One university in Korea pays Koreans 4 mil won, about 3 500 USD, to publish a paper in an international journal. Foreigners get 500 USD for the same thing. That would be illegal back home. And dont even ask about tenure for foreigners here....

2 - Change the names and job titles and you have the same examples from education and banking similar to those above.

[merlinxx]

After having worked with KE in Saudi (they were working for SV) Fry Kolean ? freck u:ugh:

[Mr.Bloggs]

Korean Air Lines have had many crashes. And the number of near crashes is astronomically high.

[Slasher]

POST DELETED AS PROMISED.

[Keylime]

I feel its no use worrying about the "traveling public" because
there will always be Joe Qs and their families who will still opt
with KE no matter how appalling its record. The 1990s proved
that conclusively - its all about airfares and convenience.


Slasher:

What is even more amazing to me is that DoD (U. S. Department of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL. As for the English, the only reason most of the KAL pilots have a Level 4 or better is because they have the profiles for the EngRish test. There was a very well known language company who walked away from a $5 million contract with KAL because they wouldn't allow KAL to administer the language test. Their reputation was more important than the contract. KAL now administers the test and NO ONE fails. An acquaintance at KAL was telling me about when he was safety pilot out of SFo-ICN. The captain had a level 5 on his license but after every ATC communication the F/O would respond in English and then translate to the captain in korean. Not one word of English was spoken on the flight deck by the captain. Gentlemen and ladies, they are flying in your airspace. The FAA knows of the problem and does nothing. Very political subject. Lose your life but don't lose face.

[ImbracableCrunk]

KAL now administers the test and NO ONE fails.
That's because they have the answers written on the table in the testing room, just like every other KAL exam.

[Andu]

Not so many years ago, a largish Middle Eastern airline stumbled upon the fact (in farcical circumstances) that one Korean flight attendant was doing all the emergency procedures renewal exams for many if not most of the Korean flight attendants in the company.

The Korean FAs would simply swap IDs and the girl supposedly doing her SEPs would do the flight for the one girl who knew all the answers, and so it went on, day after day for quite a while until one day one of the girls operating a flight with the exam girl's ID blithely announced at the crew briefing that although her name on the GD was XXX, it was actually YYY, so please call me YYY. Only then did someone note that the face on the ID wasn't the face in the briefing room.

Having said that, I found most of the Korean girls in that same largish ME airline quite pleasant to fly with (willing to travel, a different demographic/personality profile than the ones who work at Korean perhaps?) and almost without exception, NOT someone to try to outdrink at the bar. Those ladies could handle their grog like a wharfie.

[IFly86N]

Wassupman said:

At the same time I have experienced for e.g. ATCs in the US do delibrately being uncooperative to the non-english speaking flight crews by saying along the lines of " .. sorry i can't understand you sir... This is America sir..." even when they understand clearly. It's a shameYour own command of the English language is deficient. I call 'BS' on this.

[stepwilk]

Your own command of the English language is deficient. I call 'BS' on this.

Obviously his/her first language is not English, but the post is certainly comprehensible, as would be their call to Center or Approach, I suspect, unless the controller is being a real hardass. Which is the poster's point.

[Slasher]

...with the exception of the young generation educated in the US.

That could be the reason why the expat SK hosties around here
have good English Mr PAL and don't look down at you as if you're
a piece of snot. I might ask them next time they're on board.


What is even more amazing to me is that DoD (U. S. Department
of Defense) books U.S. military and their dependents on KAL.

Always been the case AFAIK Keylime and no doubt caused by
politics. DoD personnel should be given a choice of carrier.

(Mods - prev post deleted as promised. You can delete this one as you see fit at your leisure. Thank you.)

[B737NG]

DOD, did a audit in 2003 and went to Seoul. They found it not life threatening anymore to lift the ban that KAL is not considert for official travel.

At that time Greenberg, Snyder and Mohrke where in the Office to do what they can to brush up what was needed, often without the support of the lower ranks but with the assistance of late Cho and Shim.

In the early 2000´s things went upwards but certainly detoriating again since 2009. It is a real shame what happend in BKK, that shows clearly that they need to do more homework again and not only window dressing, lookes good on the surface but beware when you start to look under the carpet !

I was disturbed, at least, when I´ve learned about the occassion at BKK. I am not sure what I would have done when I was there. Maybe just walked off and went.

I remember a discussion between a Cannuck and a Kimchi about a break fan at GMP, the end of the story was that the cannuck lost the job because a Korean is always right, despite the facts.

Cabin temperature was the cause of another ExPat beeing dismissed on the way to ICN, that time the Purser felt accused and wrote a complain about it.

As more as I think back I see many Guy´s where chopped for no reason. You can sustain when you are lucky enough. Some guy´s where with the "wrong Agent" there and lost the job as the contract was not renewed. Fragile and hostile is the situation at least.

As as short summary I would say: You love flying, you have a job, you love your Family then do not risk anything. Let it go. Do yourself the favour by staying away, that does also the FCU a favour and when they learn that the expansion is not able to sustain without ExPats then it might be a little late but not too late. The pay is not that great either, appx. 13.000.-- USD for a B744/777, not enough compensation for the pain you might have to take.

Soo you want to fly for KAL ? do you really want ?

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[haejangkuk]

Sigh, holy moley...some crappy Yankee English testing company gave me only an ICAO level 5 but I don't write English like B737NG. Generally people who write English like that speak atrociously as well! I was PF to Madrid, my expat captain (a Latino )with level 6 English had to rescued from embarrassing himself with my " Konglish " saving the day:ok: However after crossing the Pyrenees, he was the champion with the Spanish ATC!

So before you go on maligning Koreans about our ATC English prowess, be honest about some of your fellow expats who also have dodgy English proficiency certificates!

[TeachMe]

Regarding English, there are a lot of Koreans with very good English ability, as mentioned above regarding the cabin crew - some of whom have been my students over the years. What must be remembered is that English ability, or at least English test scores, are one of the key factors required by Samsung, LG and the other big companies for hiring. For the average Korean, aiming for an office job at Samsung will bring more money and be more socially acceptable to parents than the 'dream' of being a pilot. Basically, the system is structured so that those with good English get accepted into jobs that do not need it, and if a pilot has good English that is more luck than anything else as those with good English are working for Samsung. Remember that in Korea, most companies like Samsung will not hire any male who is even one year older than his university cohort as he is then 'too old' and with respect to Confucian values and creates a situation in which a newer employee has more power due to age than employees who have worked there longer.

As for cabin crew, being female it is less of a concern as they do not expect to work much after marriage, hence are more 'willing' to work in a dead end job with good pay for a few years until they get to the verge of the too late to marry / too old to work in the cabin (all by Korean standards). Yes it is dead end because women are often expected and want to quit work when they get married.

There are a lot more dynamics going on here than many realize.

[B737NG]

I would not call that dynamics... I would say "politics" or discriminiation.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[Keylime]

As haejanggook says:

I was PF to Madrid, my expat captain (a Latino )with level 6 English had to rescued from embarrassing himself with my " Konglish " saving the day

And, as haejanggook said:

What a load of crock! in his perfect English syntax while injuring his arm patting himself on the back.

[Cool Guys]

I have worked and lived in many Asian countries including Korea. I have travelled long distances to many outback places with my local colleagues on planes, trains, buses and taxies. During this time I have been able to have many long and interesting discussions about most things from cell phones to Tibetan politics. One thing I have learnt with absolute certainty is that people all over the world are the same. Asian, Western, Middle Eastern, African etc. All men have similar interests and talk about the same stuff. Woman from all cultures have similar interests and talk about such things as boyfriends and babies. The difference is their education since they were born. This is their culture. In the 50s many Koreans were starving to death. In the 80s Korea was controlled by a ruthless dictator. Koreans are very proud of their achievements, their long history, of Admiral Yi Sun-Sin, about King Sejong and the Hangeul alphabet and so they should be. If their safety is not so good a bunch of insults is not going to help. What is required is more understanding and less of these negative rants.

Some advice to the western pilot with the Korean first officer. Because you are probably older your first officer he may feel inferior and because his English is not so good he may feel a little embarrassed. Take control, make the situation better, talk to him, ask him about his time in the military. Admit that you don’t really like kimchi because it is a little too spicy. Apologise for not being able to speak Korean. Ask him if he thinks North and South Korea should reunite. Spend a day at the National Museum of Korea in Seoul. Spend another day in the Seoul War Museum. I think you will find it will enrich your life.

[lederhosen]

It must be said that haejangkuk's english is remarkable. His choice of PPrune name is not bad either and might explain a couple of his more outspoken comments. Vive la difference!

[Slasher]

Actually that SK hangover soup really works! Especially after
a very heavy night of pub-crawling around Itaewon guzzling
soju and beer by the gallon.

[Sable Knight]

My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.

If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general.

[Keylime]

My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.

If someone invades your personal space to that degree you have the right to knock his lights out. It does not matter if he has four bars on his shoulders or a the four stars of a general..

You obviously didn't read the original post. The captain never made physical contact with the engineer. The engineer assaulted the captain. I guess that's ok. After asking the engineer his name and ID(which he declined to give) the captain lifted the badge up to see the name and ID #. Never did "grab" it. All of the physical contact was made by the engineer. As for the invasion of space, again that was all on the engineer. He approached the captain. I wonder if the engineer would have done that to a korean captain.

May you someday have the opportunity to fly there. Then it will be interesting to hear your comments.

[olepilot]

This is NOT the problem!!

If Korean, or e.g VAC, or any other airline want to play on the international arena and attract international SLF, they MUST at least reach a certain standard.
They must put aside their national , pride, face or whatever and recognise the safety tradition adopted elsewhere that are ahead in this aspect.

It has nothing to do with nationality or breed or anything except a long learned lesson!

F**k it! Even Konfucius said "Learn from the master"

[olepilot]

…and the SLF look at the brand new airplanes and think they get the same product as boarding a LuftHansa flight!
:yuk:
:yuk:
:yuk:


(sorry for the thread drift)

[Sable Knight]

I did read the original post several times before I posted. The points that you have raised were not in the original post. I think you should amend the original post to include this information.

Assault by anyone on another person is not acceptable, but to say that the assault was due to the fact the captain was an expat and not due to a jobs worth getting on his high horse since company procedures were not followed is very presumptuous.

In response to your comment "May you someday have the opportunity to fly there. Then it will be interesting to hear your comments." when in Rome do as the Romans do. You need to learn to adjust. Yes you will face prejudice from some people; this is a fact of life. It is now interesting to see how "Westerners" feel when they are treated life crap.

(This is coming from a third generation medical professional born and bred in the UK, who has been told time and time again that you can be the best in your profession but you will NEVER be treated as an equal)

[400drvr]

I think if some one roughed up a General he would be in some serious trouble:suspect:. Pilots are a dime a dozen and treated thusly.

"Can't we just all get along" Rodney King:)

[Slasher]

I recall Stansted was the last major prang of KAL. From this
thread it looks to me a future huge hole in the ground is on
the cards.


9X7m-d2T0MY

[Keylime]

company procedures were not followed is very presumptuous.

Sableknight:

Again you show that either you didn't read the original post or have a lack of experience in understanding the difference between advisory versus SOP. The K pages are "advisory" in nature, not procedure. That statement comes directly from Koreanair standards department. If you are currently working in an air carrier operation you should know this. Don't know about JAA approved manuals, but in the front of every FAA approved manual there is dialogue about the definition of "shall, may, etc."

Unfortunately, you assume that because it is in writing it is therefore procedure. This is the way many of the korean pilots look at the subject also; If it is in writing it must be procedure. No independent thought or thinking outside the box. You might fit in well there.

As for the comment about the engineer being aggressive with the captain because he was an expat; further investigation shows from conversation with 9 different expat captains at KAL has verified that it was well known that this engineer had a reputation of being confrontational with foreigners.

IMO the only mistake the captain made was not calling the airport police after the assault and having the SOB arrested and pressing charges.

[Direct Bondi]

I have worked for both Korean Airlines and Air China. Korean Airlines treatment of foreign pilots is far better than at Air China. Air China has stolen foreign pilots salaries, sacked and left foreign pilots abandoned in PEK and attempted to destroy foreign pilots careers by writing defamatory references. KAL has never done any of these things.
Air China expats are always in confrontation with management who constantly and unilaterally change the terms of a previously agreed contract. The representing agencies do nothing but pander to Air China's arrogant directives. While at KAL I always had 8-10 days at home and positioned in business, more often in first class and was permitted to use the airport lounge.
China does not release all aircraft incident events to the world, preferring to sweep them under the carpet to save face. Admittedly, at KAL the CRM leaves a lot to be desired, but at Air China, not only is there no CRM, there is not even a CRM course!
So, you want to fly for Korean Airlines? Good luck to you, there are far worse places.
Did someone mention English proficiency? My last sim check at Air China was conducted via an English interpreter and I never encountered a KAL pilot with English "proficiency" as bad as this example:-

Air China "talks" to JFK Ground - YouTube

[sabenaboy]

Ok. Drifting off topic here...

Ok, sure, The Air China level of english in that clip is terrible.

Nevertheless, I agree with this post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/283050-cnn-story-chinese-pilots-their-english-skills.html#post3399022) about that clip.

Shall we go back back to the topic now?

[boofhead]

Direct, not quite true. I worked for China Air and KE. Both airlines cut my salary when times were tight for them, both times ignoring my contract which was held by an agent. Because it was an agent contract they knew I would have to sue the agent, not them, for redress. Impossible to do.
I left CI because of the cut (and also a change in Base, which would cost me a lot more).

After a year at KE they cut the foreign pilot salaries for 12 months by 10 percent, leaving the local salaries alone. In fact they gave the locals a bonus that year and then gave them a substantial increase the following year. In that year also they cut the foreign pilot salaries on the 744 (which was what I was flying of course!) again for around 6 months, by about 8 percent. Again no redress.

I would safely say that the word of any of the Asian carriers (except for SQ? I also worked for them and have no complaints there) is worthless. If you get what they said you would get, days off or money, you are lucky.

I would not assume that they will cheat you, mostly they don't, but you have no recourse if they do.

They lost a perfectly serviceable MD11 the same year, pilot error and another in Guam two years previously, again pilot error (Plane Crashes and Significant Safety Events Since 1970 for Korean Air (http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/kal.htm)). As well as other accidents not involving passengers so not showing in the stats.

[Airbubba]

My take on this is (ignoring Korean culture and how they treat expats) after a heated exchange, the captain grabbed for the engineers badge. The engineer then went took a shot at the captain. I take the side of the engineer of this.

You obviously didn't read the original post. The captain never made physical contact with the engineer. The engineer assaulted the captain. I guess that's ok. After asking the engineer his name and ID(which he declined to give) the captain lifted the badge up to see the name and ID #. Never did "grab" it.

Speaking of language difficulties at JFK, there was a badge grabbing incident there this past week. An American Airlines pilot attempted to get the ID of a TSA screener who was allegedly using loud and profane urban dialect. She tossed a cup of coffee on the AA pilot.

TSA screener at JFK Airport charged with throwing hot coffee ion pilot - NYPOST.com (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/scalding_reply_at_jfk_1MPVUvXcIMbxUzbYoH5HGP)

You can get a good idea of the language you sometimes encounter on the ground at places like PHL, EWR and JFK by searching for 'Soul plane airport security' on YouTube. The clip stars Academy Award winner Mo'Nique and has subtitles, you don't want to play it with the kids listening in my opinion.

Grabbing someone's ID would be a pretty provocative act in most cultures I would think. Just like tangling with the locals in an expat job, pilots are usually going to lose when they take a stand against a TSA agent. The AA pilot played the FFDO card (he was carrying a gun) but I think this will get him in more trouble than it was worth.

[nomorecatering]

Thread drift, but please permit my indulgance.

Hopefully this clip will provide a little ballance on the debate on Korean v Western culture.

Homeless Boy Steals The Talent Show - YouTube

[stepwilk]

Hopefully this clip will provide a little balance on the debate on Korean v culture.


Regardless of the true state of Korean culture, this is artlessly manipulated show business and has no more to do with reality than does so-called "reaiity tv." My buehlchit meter was pegged.

[A and C]

While there are clearly cultural issues if you fly in the far east I am always carefull of thes pages and the posts that appear.

I am minded of a post that I read on these pages about a truly shocking airline that treated its staff like dirt with the pilot management being imposable to communicate with, as I continued to read this appalling story it slowly dawned on me that the post was about the airline that I worked for.

Clearly the guy writing the post had issues but none of them in my experience were true and the management culture was one of the most open and reasonable that I had encountered in 30 years on the business, I can only think that the guy was writing these things at 1AM after a night in the bar.

For these reasons I would take some of the above with a very large pinch of salt.

[Direct Bondi]

“very large pinch of salt” et al;

One thing I’ve learned in my 28-year aviation career is that ensuring job security and promotion can cause so-called "professional" pilots to act and conduct themselves in ways that are far removed from any association with professionalism. It may be that colleagues truly faced many problems with an airline management regime while certain individuals did not, for whatever reasons.
To give you an example of the depths to which individuals will sink and sacrifice their self respect, one pilot I am aware of at Air China’s cargo division spent so much of his free time in the office presenting photographs of his family to managers, he had the photographs laminated! - I am informed this specimen of our profession has now been promoted to “instructor” status to reward his efforts to please.
So, you may well take the above with a “very large pinch of salt” but it rather depends on the facts of your own personal experiences sans integrity or not.
From my personal experiences at both Korean Airlines and Air China, you are far better off at Korean Airlines for the previoulsy stated reasons. Alternatively, if you want to avoid any communication challenges completely, stay home!

[9.G]

D.B, why take such radical stance? How about proper conflict management solution. That's what distinct a civilized approach from brown nosing or being unpleasant individual. The subject isn't personal but operational. If there's a disagreement between whoever then there are two way to resolve it. Personal discussion or using the reporting system. First solution requires diplomatic skills whereas the latter one impeccable knowledge of the procedures. In any case the commander has the ultimate final say in operational matters. The hustle ins't worth the candles in this particular case it seems, at least.:ok:

[SRS]

Thank you for that clip slasher, it was very good. A couple of mistakes with the standard call - outs but otherwise spot on.

[N1EPR]

15 April 1999; Korean Air MD-11; Flight 6316; near Shanghai, China

I flew for KAL in the 90s. Foreign crews were treated pretty good on the job, but the contractors weren't any better. I stuck my neck out several times exerting "Captains authority" over maintenance and dispatch items. I was always backed up by the airline check airmen.

Does anyone have any report on the above listed accident. I flew the MD and would be very interested in reading any accident report.

[Airbubba]

Does anyone have any report on the above listed accident. I flew the MD and would be very interested in reading any accident report.

Don't know if the orginal report is online anywhere but it was an intentional nose over on takeoff due to feet to meters altitude clearance confusion.

Narrative:
MD-11F cargo plane HL7373 was operating flight KE6316 from Shanghai's Honqiao Airport to Seoul. The plane was loaded with 68 tons of cargo and pushed back from it's stand. Shanghai Tower then cleared the flight as follows: "Korean Air six three one six clear to destination flight planned route flight level two niner zero. After departure turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey. Initially climb and maintain niner hundred meters. Departure frequency one one niner zero five. Squawk six three one six." The engines were started and the airplane taxied to runway 18. Shortly after 4pm the flight was cleared for takeoff. After takeoff the first officer contacted Shanghai Departure and received clearance to climb to 1500 metres (4900 feet): "Korean Air six three one six now turn left direct to November Hotel Whiskey climb and maintain one thousand five hundred meters."
When the aircraft climbed to 4500 feet in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1500 feet, thought that the aircraft was 3000 feet too high. The captain then pushed the control column abrubtly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. The airplane crashed into an industrial development zone 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Hongqiao airport. The plane plunged to the ground, plowing into housing for migrant workers and exploded.

From: ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-11F HL7373 Shanghai-Hongqiao Airport (SHA) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19990415-0)

[Prince Rupert]

When the aircraft climbed to 4500 feet in the corridor, the captain, after receiving two wrong affirmative answers from the first officer that the required altitude should be 1500 feet, thought that the aircraft was 3000 feet too high. The captain then pushed the control column abrubtly and roughly forward causing the MD-11 to enter a rapid descent. Both crew members tried to recover from the dive, but were unable. The airplane crashed into an industrial development zone 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Hongqiao airport. The plane plunged to the ground, plowing into housing for migrant workers and exploded.

Something I observed a long time ago, the old ex-military Korean pilots are both abrupt in mannerism and aircraft control. I was almost always jerked up from from my after landing snooze ( whilst dead- heading ) when they slam on the brakes whilst docking in on the VDGS. When they see the red light illuminating, it's slam on the brakes! When they get a real TCAS RA, it's another abrupt maneuver. When they suddenly detect an upper cruise level speed excursion, it is usually another abrupt reaction.

So the cause of the above MD 11 at ZSSS as described was certainly plausible.

[Rananim]

Ok.so that just about covers the Koreans.It takes a special expat type to last in Korea.China.Japan.Nobodys perfect.I think it was Churchill who painted the Russians as an «enigma inside a riddle» and the same could be said of the Orient.Kipling put it even better with his «east is east and west is west» saying.

[Ocean Person]

An expatriate friend of mine who lives in Beijing and is CEO of a company doing business in North Korea informs me that he has flown in excess of one thousand ( 1000 ) flights with Air Koryo the national airline of North Korea. The first was in 1993 and he is still doing it. The majority of these flights were Beijing - Pyongyang - Beijing on the IL62 when until recently it was taken off passenger routes and replaced by the TU-204. He describes Air Koryo as his favourite airline for reasons of punctuality, inflight service and the big smiles he gets from the girls. Having flown with Air Koryo I can't do other than endorse his sentiments.

[Airbubba]

He describes Air Koryo as his favourite airline for reasons of punctuality, inflight service and the big smiles he gets from the girls. Having flown with Air Koryo I can't do other than endorse his sentiments.


Well, they are banned from the EU and, shall we say, get somewhat mixed reviews from other travelers:

Inside North Korea's Air Koryo, The World's Only 1-Star Airline - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/inside-north-koreas-air-koryo-the-worlds-only-1-star-airline-2011-12#ixzz1reifMkDQ)

[Airbubba]

Another KE item in today's news:


Bomb threat forces Korean Air jet to land in B.C.

2nd threat in 2 days causes diversion to Vancouver Island military base

CBC News

Posted: Apr 10, 2012 9:01 PM ET

Last Updated: Apr 10, 2012 11:51 PM ET

The crew of a Korean Air 777 airliner was forced to make an emergency landing at a military airbase on Vancouver Island after the airline received its second bomb threat in two days.

Korean Air Flight 72, with 149 people on board, had taken off from Vancouver International Airport headed for Seoul, South Korea, at 2:30 p.m. PT Tuesday.

The crew turned back off the north coast of B.C. after a bomb threat was made in a telephone call to the airline's Los Angeles office, a Korean Air spokesman told CBC News.

The flight was diverted to the airbase at Comox, on Vancouver Island, escorted by U.S. air force F-15 fighter jets that had been scrambled from Portland, Ore., according to Victoria's Search and Rescue Co-ordination Centre.

Another threat was phoned in on Monday against Korean Air Flight 72 before it took off, forcing a two-hour delay as RCMP cleared passengers off the aircraft to check for explosive devices, said James Koh, of Korean Air's Vancouver office...


Bomb threat forces Korean Air jet to land in B.C. - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/04/10/bc-korean-air-emergency-landing.html)

[Ocean Person]

Airbubba;

The EU restrictions on Air Koryo are politically motivated, everyone is aware of that. The fixed reviews mentioned as part of your You Tube posting are somewhat top heavy with american gutter talk so I dont think they count for much.

[Kingfisher]

Air Koryo is the perfect airline. Such talk impuning it are jealous lies. ALL HAIL THE GREAT LEADER for his wisdom in running an airline with such customer satisfaction.

[9.G]

Restrictions on Air Koryo GAC- AOC/KOR- 01 KOR DPRK All fleet with the exception of: 2 aircraft of type TU- 204 P-632 P- 633. Just for info.

[Lonewolf_50]

Sincerely hope the Canadian authorities are able to get to the bottom of this bomb threat, and get their hands on whomever initiated it. :=

[st7860]

Korean Air flight resumes journey after bomb threat | CTV News (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120411/bomb-threat-forces-korean-air-landing-120411/)
Korean Air flight resumes journey after bomb threat

[taildrag]

Re Slasher's 7 April post with the Korean Air video:

Interesting account, though one wonders if the improvements mentioned are actually in effect. "Flight International" years ago published a report of studies done regarding Asian crewmembers and Western crewmembers in several combinations- Western captain, Asian F/O, and the reverse, all Asian and all Western crews. It mentioned the cultural differences (particularly deference to senior/older captains by junior/younger Asian F/Os) as possible sources for concern.

This video is all reminiscent of that, which was published decades ago, if memory serves.

We still some of the military attitudes in US cockpits, but not to any real degree.

I have a friend, an experienced international captain and now a TRI/TRE, who has been lectured by a green co-pilot who graduated from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. I flew with an F/O who was the same way, believing he was much better prepared than mere pilots. My friend bristled at the young man's attitude.

"Why, lighten up," I advised him. "You might learn something. Don't you know Embry Riddle graduates know absolutely everything?"

It would be interesting to see how US contractors- mostly ex-US military, I presume, are training Afghan Air Force pilots on some 200 Mil-8 helicopters the US has ordered for them. I saw one video where an Afghan pilot complained he and his compatriots had flown them for years, and had much more experience in type and in country than the highly paid US instructors, who were imposing US military procedures on them, would ever have.

Anybody placing bets on the Afghan Air Force ever becoming an effective organization? I think all they have now is a few C-27s and Cessna Caravans.

Seems like a huge waste of millions (if not billions) of dollars. At least the Brits seem to be wising up a little faster.

[Notso Fantastic]

At least the Brits seem to be wising up a little faster.
Don't think so! Successive UK governments have committed the most appalling expensive blunders, culminating in the Cameron government which is actually worse than Brown's, not that we thought such a thing was possible! Billions wasted on Nimrod for one, got us a topline (expensive) fighter (Typhoon) leaving us with not much else, cancelled Harriers without anything to replace them (selling at bargain basement to the US marines AFTER a $150 million upgrade), left us undefendable without any carriers while we wait for 2 new carriers which won't take the fighter planned for it (or even operate both at all)...... No Sir, don't use the expression 'wise' and Britain in the same sentence now- we are actually making more mistakes than the current Washington administration thanks to politicians beyond description! We have to ban politicians from the playing fields of Eton and north of our (English) border...it's the only answer!

[FERetd]

Notso Fantastic

Quote:- "We have to ban politicians from the playing fields of Eton and north of our (English) border...it's the only answer!"

So that would make John Prestcott an ideal candidate?

I think we need to be even more circumspect.

I do agree with your comments, though.

[Hibernia]

Ashleigh Merritt's PhD thesis (http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/helmreichlab/Book/H&Mbook.html) is spot on. Should be required reading for all professional pilots. Not sure if it comes in Korean. Perhaps it should?

[root]

What about ATC in Korea, anyone have any experience with them?

[Keylime]

Korean Air flight resumes journey after bomb threat

I spoke with some of the crew on that flight....If it wasn't for some experienced
expats(riff-raff) on the aircraft it would have been a total :mad:

[B737NG]

I remember only a few Controllers in Korea who where capable to think lateral and could assist the flow. Mainly it is old style driven: I tell, you fly. Authority, not service. Except a few individuals, English also only limited.

[BRE]

Slightly off topic, but why would an airliner with a bomb threat be escorted by two figher jets? There is absolutely nothing they can do other than witness it going down if there really was a bomb.

[Notso Fantastic]

1- assist with locating wreckage immediately and possible coordination of rescue of survivors.
2- if there is one terrorist threat, there is more likely to be a further one, possibly even a terrorist on board. Therefore the behaviour of the aeroplane must be monitored to ensure any further threat is minimised.

Now back to the subject......

[LNAV VNAV -]

''Slightly off topic, but why would an airliner with a bomb threat be escorted by two figher jets? There is absolutely nothing they can do other than witness it going down if there really was a bomb.''

They could try to reduce the size of the pieces after the bomb explodes :}

(which would mean increasing their number of course!).

[bakutteh]

LNAV VNAV -
*
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sand Pitt
Posts: 33
''Slightly off topic, but why would an airliner with a bomb threat be escorted by two figher jets? There is absolutely nothing they can do other than witness it going down if there really was a bomb.''

They could try to reduce the size of the pieces after the bomb explodes

(which would mean increasing their number of course!).



In the minds of NORAD tactical planners, if there was indeed a bomb onboard and if the airplane was directed by it's occupants to a populated area or vital strategic location, then there would be need to forcibly steer it away or shoot it down!

[Notso Fantastic]

ie Note 2 in Post 113 above! Now back on subject please- Korean Air not terrorism.

[India Four Two]

I recently saw a video about the Stansted 747 crash and it was stated the senior Korean military pilots automatically become captains when they join Korean Airlines because of their rank - too much loss of face if they join as an FO.

Say it aint so! :eek:

[Keylime]

An acquaintance who has been at KAL for 15 years was telling me in the briefing area he noticed a KAL captain bowing and scraping to an F/O. He later found out the F/O had been a squadron commander in the korean air farce and the captain had been his "junior". They still carry their rank to a certain degree. My question would be what happens if these two pilots are in the same cockpit? Who is in command? My bet would be the "junior" is in command only on paper. In both the Guam and Stansted accidents these military guys had just a few years with KAL and were captains because of their prior positions. Don't tell me it doesn't happen. That was a point brought up in the Delta report done many years ago. This ain't the same report that is on the internet from the Kiwi.

[haejangkuk]

India Four Two...absolute hogwash.

Keyline...unfortunately what you wrote is correct.

Happy? Flame away!

[Rondo Alla Turca]

Heard from a former colleague whose contract is due for renewal...his agency indicated that no more contract renewalsfor b744 guys. 2/3 of the cargo fleet is idle. To him it is a blessing in disguise, inertia had kept him in KAL for too long. So he is getting a baby bus rating to join some outfit in Red China paying more than what he gets in KAL!

According to him things got really bad in KAL after 2007; a lot of good things gone...the first class dead heading privilege taken away, no more accumulation of backlog leave, more stringent conditions for privilege travel, no increase in per diem despite the surging inflation, closure of the dispatch office at the terminal with crew now having to shuttling up and down to a remote crew operations centre, computer self briefing adding time and inconvenience during the preflight process, 200 questions in self study questionaire prior to line checks, ridiculous sim training syllabus,
the managing senior vice president of flight operations coming out with ridiculous directives curtailing crew activities at layovers, the need to address cabin crew as " sirs " and " madams ". Apparently the managing SVP flt ops is **** scared of the cabin crew boss who is the KAL chairman's daughter!

Also,flight crew recruitment has scraped the bottom of the barrel with only people holding dubious credentials flooding in creating a general debasement of foreign crew quality. These questionable characters add to foreign crew woes as they abuse the privileges leading to everyone suffering from greater scrutiny besides losing some of the privileges. So not a very good picture...............

[Rollingthunder]

Air China talks to JFK ground

This is why I don't fly Chinese airlines.

You want noodles with that?

[India Four Two]

India Four Two...absolute hogwash.

Keyline...unfortunately what you wrote is correct.

haejangkuk,

I'm confused by your responses to me and to Keylime. If I changed my post to read "quickly" instead of "automatically", would my question then be in line with Keylime's post?

[Keylime]

One other issue that is pertinent to the military pilots entry into KAL is that they automatically get three(3) years seniority over the pilots coming in from civilian backgrounds. I have never understood why the Korean Air Pilots Union puts up with this. Instead of sh%tt*ng on the foreigners they should be striking until this stops. Having operated with the Korean Air Farce pilots when I was in the military I can tell you they ain't that good.

[VaniosLenos]

When my company for 12 years closed, I had job offers from 2 U.K. carriers and KoreanAir. I have read all threads available, and since the people appeared friendly at the screening in Seoul, I ignored all advices of colleagues and decided to join with an open mind, and an open heart, mostly due to the commuting contract.
It was generally ok during the first few weeks. Later on you meet some of the trainers. I got the impression they were looking down on me, but I was trying to blend with their culture.
One day, on the way to the sim for fixed base simulator, my wife calls from back home, telling me that our son will have to make an appendix operation.
Arriving at the sim centre I tell the Korean trainer about it, and that I can not do the sim session until everything with my kid was ok.
The trainer tells me not to worry, its just a tick in the box these fixed base simulators, and its not an evaluation of any kind...
Despite my unwillingness to do a sim session that day, he insisted saying that it will create problems to scheduling, and that we can repeat it tomorrow if unhappy, etc etc..
So I did the session, to a good standard given the circumstances. The trainer debriefed me on items such as not remembering a standard call, or not pointing out where the highest point on the Jep chart is. Then he picks up the phone and calls somewhere talking in korean.When he finishes the call he tells me that tomorrow some other trainer will come.
I go back to the hotel, in the mean time my kid's operation was ok, and much releived, I go the next day to the next fixed base sim session (!), to see some chief trainer on the 737 fleet.(!) We sat at the briefing room asking me all sorts of questions from the books. I even remember him asking me how much was the highest outside temperature that you can have in order to put live animals in the holds (!) I felt humiliated. I was wondering if he was trying to prove something to me, or if I had to prove to him that I knew all manuals by memory like a computer.
It was there when I realized that, all those things written about KAL are true to the last letter. Someone told me when I was there that these guys will take any opportunity to prove to them selves or to whoever else that they do a good job by chopping expat people. Never mind the human aspect, they dont care! He was 1000% right.
The session later on was a formality. The next day I received an email from the agent telling me that they are terminating my contract.
After a few seconds of reading the email, I felt relieved. I regreted not paying attention to all those saying 'do not join KAL', but I was surely relieved. So I went back home without a job. A few months later I joined a Gulf carrier, thinking that at the end of the day I was lucky to leave KAL before it really had bad impact on me.

[Keylime]

VaniosLenos

Sorry to hear what happened to you. I have heard this story many times. Only the names are changed. Spread the word. May they soon be grounding airplanes due to lack of flight crew. Then maybe things will change. Otherwise, the only way there will be change is when they have another Stansted or Guam at the expense of a lot of innocent people sitting behind these fools. IF this makes you feel any better, recently eleven(11) KAL pilots went to a Chinese airline for interviews on the B777. Two were expat and nine koreans. All nine koreans failed the sim session. Seems they had to do a engine failure(V1 cut) with the TAC(thrust assymetry compensation) failed. Everyone of these ace aviators crashed. The only two who passed were the expats. How can this be? How can the BEST PILOTS IN THE WORLD fail??? Must be a racist interview process.

[Langkasuka]

Heard from reliable sources that KAL had lost some 30% of their cargo business in China.

Another more disturbing news is that their recent, unreported conflict with the big chaebol Samsung with respect to carriage of Samsung " ready as required " on time shipping of their products; apparently Samsung has sworned off using KAL services ever again!

There are rumours that many B744 expat pilots' contracts will not be renewed and people are scrambling to get an A320 rating to get a foot into Chinese Airlines currently paying much more flying the baby bus in the Chinese mainland.

[Keylime]

Heard from reliable sources that KAL had lost some 30% of their cargo business in China.

Another more disturbing news is that their recent, unreported conflict with the big chaebol Samsung with respect to carriage of Samsung " ready as required " on time shipping of their products; apparently Samsung has sworned off using KAL services ever again!

There are rumours that many B744 expat pilots' contracts will not be renewed and people are scrambling to get an A320 rating to get a foot into Chinese Airlines currently paying much more flying the baby bus in the Chinese mainland.


Langkauska.....your intel is correct. KAL is not renewing contracts for several 744 foreign captains(riff raff). Meanwhile their recruiting is interviewing and hiring foreigners they would not even have considered 4 years ago. Take the cutltural/language difficulties and mix with less experienced captains and you have a self-fulfilling prophecy. (We told you these foreigners were lousy pilots). In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines. They were also fined for similar practices down in Oceania. In 2008 even with the fine they still showed a small profit. The expats contract delineated a cost of living raise if the airline made a profit. NADA!! Contracts mean nothing. Remember these are ethical honest people you are dealing with. They constantly tell the contract pilots "a contract is a contract" (particularly when it is to their advantage).

Their less than ethical business practices are coming full the circle. The chickens may finally be coming home to roost. Well deserved.

[fdr]

haenjangkuk
That is why a expat is required to flights to the USA. With you'r thinking you will never advance Free at Last

errr, not quite correct. There is not and never has been a requirement for a Foreigner/Weikukin to be on the crew list for any operation to any destination. There is no insurance aspect that requires a particular crew makeup. Not saying that it wouldn't be an advisable thing for the underwriter... just that it is factually false.

Delta Audit...? hmmm, entertaining reading, but the audit was not done by Dealta per se, it was done by experienced but unqualified auditors, and that is reflected in the quality of the document. The program there is actually far more dysfunctional than is noted on these pages, and Hanjuk's comments are pretty much in line with the delusional nature of the program in general. Human factors are a primary aspect of all incidents and most damage caused there, yet while there is a cookie cutter HF/CRM program in place, no party from the operators to the management apply such mechanisms.

The engineers are generally world leaders, I have more respect for them in general than most professionals in this industry. Having said that, occasions arise where they do get somewhat "excited", and that may have bent he case here. They are operating under the same punitive, viscious, nasty, rude, "false witnessing" environment that the foreigners lament about, and that Hanjuk is an apologist for.

My favourite story related to the abusive program there was the day when...

Argus goes to the office on monday morning, and is confronted about a flight he did on the sunday on an A300-605R, from SEL-PUS-SEL-PUS-SEL... He is told by the chief pilot of the fleet that he of all people should not have done what he had done, that it is shameful that his flying is so bad... etc etc, Argus approaches me and asks if I will look t the data of his flight. I do. Perfectly stable, elegant flight. Chief pilot has in the meantime as is usually the case, asked the FO why he didn't demand a go around for such a "bad approach", to which he answers that he had demanded many times that the foreign devil go around, to no avail, foreigners don't listen etc.. (actually I do, and I speak korean....) Subsequently, the chief pilot is asked my me if he would like to check the date of the event... (local vs GMT...) and he then realises he is after the pilot of the same flight number, for the preceding day, not Argus. Fine. except, what about the FO's comment about screaming at the foreign devil who ignored his plaintive wailing, teeth gnashing and renting of cloth, and "continued to land despite the warning that the approach was unstable, horrible, incompetent... usual foreign pilot bad skills etc"? Nothing.

All parties in that dysfunctional program have a jackboot placed at varying levels of force on the back of their necks, including Hanjuk & Co. The good news is, the foreigner can retire and go somewhere else, that does not have that corrosive situation, Hanjuk, and the rest of his gang are married to the program. I have many HanKukIn friends, really good people, some are even ex F-5 Majors, the most dangerous thing in the air, normally. Best local friends were engineers. Erratic behaviour is hardly a surprise in a program that is doing 110% in day VFR conditions due to the interminable threat from above.

Caveat Emptor

[fdr]

The audit was initiated after the crash of KAL 801 in 1997 in Guam. Lose your life but don't lose face.KEYLIME

KE801 was a CFIT related significantly to chronic fatigue/dysrhythmia and the failure of cognitive processing, coupled with poor practice, loss of SA, and finally a level of hesitancy to react to conflicting signals. Finally, the inertia that exists in decision making within a punitive culture in relation to conducting a go around... The company did actively change their position on this last matter as a consequence of 801, and the proactive direction by Dave G., and Bill H., in Mar 2000.

"Lose your life but don't lose face" is somewhat simplistic for the 801 event. I think that the MD11F bingle showed more of the face issue, where the poor FO knew he was getting dead, yet remained fairly passive until 2.3 seconds before he ended up dead. He was the only guy on the flight deck who understood what was happening, IMHO, as indicated by his comments at the commencement of the upset.

[fdr]

Stanstead Captain I42

The workup to Stanstead is interesting, in relation to the Captain. on the immediately preceding flight, the SS Capt had operated into the en route hub in southern CIS states, and diverted towards the south. On departure from the divert APT, the Capt got confused with his left and right hands... and turned the wrong way. Fairly exciting, it is a one way departure due to lumpy bits. Lots of screaming going on, shades of the VOR approaches later flown two times sequentially into Milan on the B744F with the German DH pilot screaming at the crew... who were using ILS mode, both times... (became the great GPWS approach aid, descend until the pax screams or the GPWS goes off incessantly...). The SS Capt was under fairly great pressure as the company really had had enough of his activities by the time he took his face plant into the english countryside. (The German pilot was sufficiently traumatised after Milan's disneyland to decline the invitation to return to work, smart move).

The SS CVR transcript is chilling reading and harrowing listening. The engineer accepted his fate before impact, the Captain died relaxed, didn't have a schmick as to what was happening, and the poor FO was still tuning a DME. The engineer who had re-racked the INU got a close up encounter with the consequences of the process.

Making mistakes is a human characteristic; the "Zero Error" expectancy by this company short circuits all aspects of operational safety, and results in a pathologically dysfunctional program. I personally consider that the Koreans can be very professional in any aspect of endeavour, but the system precludes that, and the background xenophobic response makes it a hard task to alter the position, if anyone cared enough to bother, after the abuse meted out by the company and it's misguided supporters.

[fdr]

while injuring his arm patting himself on the backKeylime

reminds me...

true story, of how the system debases the process...

B744F crew arrive at ANC, to fly to ICN. New "Cruise Capt" FO has joined crew. The crew brief and proceed to the aircraft, and the new guy sits in the RHS for the departure. the Ferringhi Capt offers the sector to the new guy, who politely refuses, as his left arm is actually broken. I kid you not. His LH arm is in a cast. Capt thinks about this for a short time, and decides for the well being of all parties that they will fly the sector as a 2 pilot crew, and put the poor Cruiser into the bunk.

Every one is happy.


Not so nice:

B777 newbie from Turkey does his final sector of the checkout. Fails. "Bad Capt, bad landing, cannot fly/land etc... last landing dangerous, bad technique...". Sage nodding of heads of DLCP, KCASA guy, and FO. The poor old Johnny turk finally enquires that they are referring to the last landing? "yes, dangerous, bad technique, no good etc...", "are you referring to the auto land we just did 1/2 an hour ago?..."

10/10 candidates failed selection for a simple common factor, in the screening simulator.... "didn't know Korean procedures..."

A welcoming program. For those that decide not to go there, well saved, sir. For those that go and walk, congratulations, for those that stay, you have my respect for your fortitude.

[zondaracer]

In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines.

To be fair, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic were also involved if I remember correctly, amongst others. And recently, there was another price fixing case that came to light that involved quite a few more very well known international carriers, to include Qantas, BA, Singapore, AirFrance, KLM, Cathay, Emirates, Korean, and more.

[SRS]

FDR, you are right on the money. I am sure we worked together. It would all be amusing if it was not so tragic.

[Keylime]

To be fair, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic were also involved if I remember correctly, amongst others. And recently, there was another price fixing case that came to light that involved quite a few more very well known international carriers, to include Qantas, BA, Singapore, AirFrance, KLM, Cathay, Emirates, Korean, and more.

Zondaracer:

What part of "In 2008 KAL was fined $200 million for price fixing of cargo rates along with some other airlines" was not clear: The statement was more than fair, I just didn't name all of the other airlines. The point you missed was that KAL used this as a reason to "steal" the cost of living increase from all of the expat pilots. Bunch crooked bas&#rds!! Liars and thieves!!

[Ferret the original]

Interesting to read all the experiences. As an ex KAL B777 Captain I can verify many of the stories to be true. Although I had a great run through training and no online problems after 3 years I decided to get out before something bad happened. Unfortunately I watched as the operational standards got worse, I watched expats being blamed for local pilots lack of skill, I watched great operators crucified by the system of punishment. After 34 years in the industry with over 20000 hours I decided to get out while I still loved the job. Many of my buddies bailed at the same time.

If you choose to go to KAL all I can say is Watch your back and good luck!!