Captain 'subdued' aboard JetBlue flight

[MELDreamer]

Strange happenings.

JetBlue Plane Makes Emergency Landing In Amarillo After Co-Pilot Disrupts Flight « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/jetblue-plane-makes-emergency-landing-in-amarillo-after-co-pilot-disrupts-flight/)

The world's going mad.

[yates]

Clearly there were serious potential implications, but I hope that the gentlemen in question gets all the help he needs.

Its no time to be pointing fingers 1(not that you were MEL), but now its on Pprune and Youtube the "well informed with hindsight" (i.e. the media) will probably ensure any temporary mental problems he had become permanant.

[Golf_Seirra]

I would also be pretty pissed if my co-pilot locked me out of the office. I mean, if you can't have a chat to a few passengers, get the blonde's telephone number in row 2 or have a Gin & Tonic....erratic behaviour ....poor chap was most probably been polite to pax for a change....you are right, what is the world becoming. ;)

[STBYRUD]

Wait, the FO got the captain out of the flight deck, capt proceeded to chat up some passengers, another off duty pilot took over as PIC and the original captain was subdued? I bet they have a great story to tell :D

Avherald:
A Jetblue Airbus A320-200, registration N796JB performing flight B6-191 from New York JFK,NY to Las Vegas,NV (USA), was enroute at FL340 about 55nm north of Amarillo,TX (USA) when the captain suffered a panic attack and behaved entirely incoherent forcing the first officer to seek assistance by cabin crew and passengers to overpower the captain, lock him out of the cockpit and have him restrained in the passenger cabin. Another Jetblue pilot flying as passenger assisted the first officer while diverting to Amarillo for a safe landing about 20 minutes later.

The airline confirmed the flight diverted because of a medical condition with the captain. Another captain travelling as passenger on the flight joined the first officer in the cockpit. The ill captain was taken to a local hospital. A replacement aircraft is going to be dispatched to Amarillo to continue the flight.

Passengers reported the captain had visited the bathroom and when returning to the cockpit basically went nuts and screamed about terrorists and bombs on the aircraft knocking the cockpit door. The first officer locked him out of the cockpit and had him overpowered. It took six people to sit on the captain to restrain him. Another pilot on board went to the cockpit to assist the first officer for the diversion.

[Flytdeck]

Sounds as though this could be script material for "House".

Oh, wait......drat..... series terminated.

Well done F/O and non-duty pilot and here is hope that the afflicted Captain recovers.

[Herod]

Hang on. The Captain leaves the flightdeck to a comfort break. When he returns he finds the F.O. has locked him out. Too damn right I'd be worried about terrorists. I'd say the captain's initial reaction of banging on the door and shouting to be let in was perfectly normal. Seems everything escalated from there. I'd love to be in on the investigation; not sure the F.O. has covered himself in glory here.

[flyburg]

I thought the captain knew how to unlock the cockpit door.

A little CRM touchup and...


Yes, but as you also know, the person in the cockpit can stop that from happening!! Details won't be discussed here. Or are you implying he knew how to open the door using superior CRM tactics?

[Lost in Saigon]

Sounds rather similar to the 767 Air Canada FO who was later diagnosed with a brain tumour. http://www.pprune.org/canada/310940-air-canada-pilot-inflight-mental-breakdown.html

He was locked out by the Captain and a Flight Attendant replaced him in the flightdeck.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am glad to see this situation was resolved without anyone being hurt. After seeing a fellow pilot self destruct and then kill himself, undoubtedly due to an undiagnosed mental illness, I feel for the poor Captain who will probably never fly again. This is no laughing matter, nobody is immune to a mental illness........

[Lost in Saigon]

Hang on. The Captain leaves the flightdeck to a comfort break. When he returns he finds the F.O. has locked him out. Too damn right I'd be worried about terrorists. I'd say the captain's initial reaction of banging on the door and shouting to be let in was perfectly normal. Seems everything escalated from there. I'd love to be in on the investigation; not sure the F.O. has covered himself in glory here.


All the news reports state the Captain was acting irrational BEFORE he went for his comfort break: JetBlue captain subdued after pounding on cockpit - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57405282/jetblue-captain-subdued-after-pounding-on-cockpit/)


A police officer and an off-duty airline pilot subdued a JetBlue captain Tuesday morning aboard a Las Vegas-bound flight when the captain started pounding on the cockpit door after the flight's co-pilot asked him to leave and subsequently locked him out, a federal official told CBS News.

The captain became incoherent during JetBlue Flight 191 from New York's John F. Kennedy International, prompting the co-pilot to get him to leave the cockpit, the official said. JetBlue said in a statement to CBS News that the flight was diverted to Amarillo, Texas, "for a medical situation involving the captain."

[Magplug]

Should we be surprised ?

In the last 15 years my management have orchestrated a predictable annual 'smash & grab' raid on my salary, pension and conditions....

And now the so-called regulator (UK CAA) wants to throw away the last 50 years of knowledge of pilot fatigue accrued from various accidents and mishaps... The ones we are supposed to learn from ?!?! Just so we can have a single pan-european set of regulations that in reality have no basis on anything.

I hope this guy recovers but it is enough to send anybody around the twist !

[11Fan]

Let's not forget that Journo's are lurking about folks.

Just sayin....

[Huck]

Tell us again about the single-pilot airliners of the future....

[beardy]

Was he carrying a gun, or has that programme been terminated?

[Superpilot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9YFa2UMztE&feature=related

Plenty of footage emerging showing the passengers genuinely thinking the guy outside the cockpit and not inside was the dangerous one.

[Petercwelch]

Terribly sad story for this man and his family. Sometimes people just snap. Hard to see how he would fly again. Imagine the poor first officer. Tough position to find yourself in as a FO.

[Banana4321]

Thank Goodness this guy wasn't a passenger! The outrage here would have been been over a thousand posts by now. What about if he worked for security? Prune would have melted down and we would have a China Syndrome.

If he had visited Pakistan recently and worked for the TSA on secondment to LHR to assist on the Crew Gate then the bonfire of the vanities would be alight. And, the Lord forgive, what if he was a j*urn*l*st as referred to above? The world would have to end tonight.

Are pilots (let alone captains) still Holier than Thou? Or can we put that one to bed?

If only 411A were around to see this. God Bless.

[PT6A]

I'm sure the Captain new how to open the door! The usual way by pressing # and waiting until the door is unlocked, or by entering the emergency code and waiting for the time lapse to be over.

However, due to the way he had conducted himself in the flight deck... We can assume the First Officer used his "superior CRM skills" to get the Captain out of the flight deck and then use the "deny" function of the CDLS thus preventing the keypad from having any further effect (normally set to inhibit the keypad for 5 mins)

From then on the Flightdeck door and entry procedures did exactly what they were designed to do.

[Airbubba]

I'm sure the Captain new how to open the door! The usual way...

I don't think any of this stuff should be in the public domain.:=

[PT6A]

It already is! The CDLS manufacturer published it as part of their patent!

Hardly security sensitive... If the procedures are followed does not matter if they know how the door works.

I guarante you the folks at terror HQ know how they work.

[Lost in Saigon]

I suspect that the Captain in his irrational state of mind would have been unable to remember the emergency entry code.

[ImbracableCrunk]

It already is! The CDLS manufacturer published it as part of their patent!

Hardly security sensitive... If the procedures are followed does not matter if they know how the door works.

I guarante you the folks at terror HQ know how they work.
That doesn't relieve you of your responsibility to not talk about this.

[Brigid]

I think and it sounds like an anemic hypoxia event, we'll find out later as the investigation goes on :bored:

[aterpster]

beardy:

Was he carrying a gun, or has that programme been terminated?

No, the program has not been terminated and he would have to have been qualified as a flight deck officer. I doubt he was, but if so, his firearm would not have been on his person when he went to the cabin,

[fly4bux777]

My JBlew buds say he was #3 on the seniority list and a CKA. By the time the NTSB (they're already in on the investigation)...gets through with this one...there are going to be a lot of airline pilots taking an annual psyche exam.

This is a very bad day for airline pilots.

Good job...uh...FO...uh..for watching your CA's back...

[Brigid]

Let's remember the passengers subdued and quieted him on a request over the Ic from flight attendants, there was nothing screwey going on and it ended well, no casualties, no loss of life, no deviation of flight plan it's just a simple result of a captain who became irrational and a 2nd officer who made the right decision, and a ferrying captain was onboard, unfortunate but I don't see how it is such a big deal.

[Lost in Saigon]

You guys are assuming way too much. It could be something like a brain tumour which is Physical Health, not Mental Health.

Remove the tumour and he could be Good To Go.

[Brigid]

My guess was hypoxic anemia, he's in too good of health and has too good a record for a psyche problem.

[Brigid]

It might be a Gremlin !!

[Akali Dal]

Kudos to the first officer who recognised the unstable mental state of the skipper and tricked him into leaving the cockpit! Great presence of mind and overall a great command candidate.

[thepotato232]

I once heard a (possibly apocryphal) story on some small carrier a long time ago wherein the captain began acting irrationally, slipping in and out of lucidity, and generally acting an ass. After the FO got the plane on the ground, the captain was rushed to the hospital and diagnosed with viral encephalitis. Could be any number of things besides generic craziness.

Kudos to the first officer who recognised the unstable mental state of the skipper and tricked him into leaving the cockpit! Great presence of mind and overall a great command candidate.Yep, some really quick thinking on the FO's part. Of course, almost all pilots working at JetBlue were Captains at their last airline.

My JBlew buds say he was #3 on the seniority list and a CKA. By the time the NTSB (they're already in on the investigation)...gets through with this one...there are going to be a lot of airline pilots taking an annual psyche exam.

This is a very bad day for airline pilots.

Good job...uh...FO...uh..for watching your CA's back...

Did you miss the part where the man was violent and irrational? "Watching your Captain's back" is no longer an option when he becomes a threat to the safe completion of the flight. If the NTSB comes up with a brand new hoop for us to jump through every year, blaming the FO is about the most ass-backwards thing you could do.

[grimmrad]

What, please, is hypoxic anemia?? No such thing.

[Huck]

I've worked at three airlines.

At two of them, pilots have acted irrationally in the cockpit and have been removed from flight status for psych issues.

It's tragic when it happens, but pilots are just as vulnerable to mental illness as anyone else....

[SummerLightning]

@grimmrad
I assume the intended reference is to hypoxemia, but what's meant is probably hypoxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_(medical))
Possible I suppose, but so are many other things. We've already managed to give out information about cabin security and probably enough personal information for someone to identify the individual concerned, so maybe it would be best not to speculate further until the facts are known.

[timberline]

So the captain banged on the flight deck door demanding reentry and the copilot said "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that".

[Loose rivets]

I assume there will be a very, very careful analysis of the captain's blood chemistry, along with his water, food and beverages. Although his choice of words leads us down other routes, a senior man's sudden departure from a well-balanced state might well have reasons other than natural causes.

Clearly, I'm suggesting that all crews have a vulnerability to being intentionally incapacitated with drugs - perhaps even sophisticated and difficult to detect chemistry used in research.

I would also test for connections with other cases where data and samples are still available. Nothing is confined to the logic of fiction these days.

[Slasher]

Course you're all well aware of the possibility that there could
be a knee-jerk reaction from the FAA, and everyone will have
to do a official shrink test at some clinic as part of the licence
medical renewal procedures.

This could lead to the ICAO level - which may cause us all in
the end having to do the same, with the obvious implications.

[Pablo26]

I'm curious - who is the PIC when an off-duty captain goes up to assist in a situation like this?

[paparomeodelta]

Just a couple of weeks ago a US flight attendant was being irrational, shouting about the same thing as this guy "we are all going to crash" and stuff. She was also overmanned and carried to the hospital.

[InSoMnIaC]

Pablo - I'm curious - who is the PIC when an off-duty captain goes up to assist in a situation like this?

The Second in command (ie the FO). The off duty captain is there for assistance but legally the FO is responsible.

[FlightCosting]

don't think any of this stuff should be in the public domain.:=

totally agree, the moderators normally kill such posts

[mixture]

don't think any of this stuff should be in the public domain

Airbubba & FlightCosting...

There is an old saying.... "security by obscurity is not security".

The whole point is that you have a structured, layered system of security, so that compromise of one or two elements of the security (whether because of a human "mole", by description of a security mechanism or otherwise) does not compromise the security of the system as a whole.

Also stop getting your underwear in a twist, because as has already been pointed out, the information has been in the public domain for some time now because the manufacturer wanted to secure a patent.

[Daifly]

Erm, so, lockable cockpit doors. Being a natural conspiracy theorist, why did the FO let the deadheading Captain into the Flight Deck if he felt there was something amiss? I think I'd keep the door locked and land it myself once I felt I'd reduced the threat I was facing.

That, to me, probably confirms the pointlessness of lockable cockpit doors.

And I liked the comment above about is the armed pilot program still in place! It is as far as I'm aware; could have been a very different result if he had been.

I await the next knee jerk security overreaction with baited breath.

[Tonic Please]

If people might be interested, the uneventful ATC recording:

JetBlue Flight 191 Captain Suffers Breakdown, Makes Emergency Landing in Texas: ATC Audio - YouTube

[sabenaboy]

I'm curious - who is the PIC when an off-duty captain goes up to assist in a situation like this?

In my company, the off duty captain would officially become the commander.
That's what our FOM says and it appears absolutely logical to me.

[stilton]

Expect a knee jerk reaction from the FAA.


Test's for sanity may be next.


We will lose a lot of Pilots :eek:

[paparomeodelta]

In my company, the off duty captain would officially become the commander.
That's what our FOM says and it appears absolutely logical to me.

Even if he hasn´t slept and normally drives 737? This was a bus.

[Bokkenrijder]

I suspect that the Captain in his irrational state of mind would have been unable to remember the emergency entry code.
Poor system knowledge as there is still a way to override this from the flight deck!

So the captain banged on the flight deck door demanding reentry and the copilot said "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that". Hahaha, brilliant! :D

Expect a knee jerk reaction from the FAA.


Test's for sanity may be next.Yup, ICAO Sanity Level 6 in our future pilot licenses? :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, is this an isolated case, or are we witnessing the limits of the envelop of how far you can push crews on a long term basis in today's busy environment with outdated duty limitations?

[sabenaboy]

Even if he hasn´t slept and normally drives 737? This was a bus.

Was it really necessary for me to include in my previous message that obviously it would have to be one of our own company's type rated captains, fit and sober?? :rolleyes: :} :ugh:

[paparomeodelta]

Sabenaboy.
Sorry, you´re right. I´m overworked, in a dodgy hotel room and in an unusually bad mood.

But in this particular case it could have been the case...

Btw, I got really sad when I saw the poor chap being wheeled down the stairs, tied to the chair. What a tragedy. He will always be reminded of this on Youtube and everywhere else. Looked like a nice guy...

Cheers...

[GlueBall]

Every copilot's dream . . . for the captain to disappear!

[slamer.]

Great .. PIC is denied entry back to his FD. He prob thought the FO was Al-Qaeda going to jack the flight, instead PIC ends up assaulted and in straight-jacket. Media get their "splash", we get another nail in our professional coffin.



... standing by for knee-jerk FAA response

[anengineer]

Well, according to the BBC, the plane was safely landed by a passenger !... :ugh::ugh:

BBC News - JetBlue flight makes emergency landing in Texas (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17532463) (00:43 onwards)

..albeit an 'off duty pilot' passenger... I'll bet the FO would have a few words to say about that !

[Kingfisher]

Yep the first thing a Captain who is thwarted should do is hammer on the door and start shouting. Couldnt use the interphone huh? We dont know what happened in the flight deck. We dont know how experienced or profesional the FO is. If He/She felt the lives on board were at risk we would want them to act. We dont know anything hard until the report comes out.

[de facto]

I read ANTI Depression pills make some people completely mad...over the counter prescription?wife pills?

[CaptainProp]

PIC is denied entry back to his FD

"His" flight deck? :confused: Did we not leave this kind of "I'm the Captain so I own this aircraft and you are just here because the regulations say we need a body with a pulse in the right seat"-attitude back in the 1980s...?

With the information available so far, and I repeat - SO FAR, it seems to me that the FO did exactly what he is paid to do, act in the interest of safety of the aircraft, passengers and crew.

CP

[fox niner]

To be very honest:

I expect my first officer to lock ME out of the cockpit when I start acting irrationally or in an insane manner. Poor chap. All the best wishes to him.

[J.O.]

The comment was made that there's no such thing as hypoxic anemia. That is correct, the proper term is anemic hypoxia. A lack of oxygen can't cause anemia, but anemia can cause a lack of oxygen.

The dictionary definition is below but essentially it is a lack of oxygen flow to the brain caused by a blood disorder (such as anemia) that restricts the blood's ability to carry oxygen.

anemic hypoxia
n. Hypoxia resulting from a decreased concentration of functional hemoglobin or a reduced number of erythrocytes. Also called anemic anoxia.

[FR8R H8R]

And.......everyone moves up one seniority number. :D

[beardy]

Was he carrying a gun, or has that programme been terminated?

No, the program has not been terminated and he would have to have been qualified as a flight deck officer. I doubt he was, but if so, his firearm would not have been on his person when he went to the cabin,

Doubting is not certainty. I suppose that in order to prevent an errant 'flight deck officer' taking his gun into the cabin it would be on a piece of string not long enough to reach the cabin (sorry can't find an emoticon for light hearted cynicism.) He was evidently very worried by some form of perceived threat, he may have been worried enough to arm himself. I am not at all reassured by your confidence.

[deSitter]

I can tell you from experience that combination of altitude + natural problem with O2 supply from whatever reason (in my case, blood clot in lungs) can definitely make you feel very panicky and paranoid, like the floor is slipping out from under you. However such a person is very weak at the knees and everywhere else, and would not require 4 men to subdue.

-drl

[thepiper]

Brigid

I sincerely hope that you know more about flying than medicine. Ill informed statements such as this help no one

[Slasher]

In my company, the off duty captain would officially become
the commander.

I can see an obvious insurance issue for any off-duty bloke
who jumps in a crew seat and declares himself the boss in
a non-emergency (as against an incidental) situation.

Anyway assuming he is out of uniform what happens if he's
had a few grogs down the back in the meantime?

[deSitter]

Middle-aged men are regularly given cocktails of drugs for cholesterol control, some of which seem to me, from experience with my father, to have very powerful side effects. But doesn't the FAA have strict rules about what prescription regimens are allowed for active duty pilots?

-drl

[Loose rivets]

In ten years I've almost never risen to the bait, but:

FR8R H8R And.......everyone moves up one seniority number.

with the clapping of hands no less, gives me an overwhelming desire to see you trampled in the rush.

[derelicte]

It could have been worse:

Ryanair boss aims to axe 'unnecessary' co-pilots | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/sep/08/ryanair-axe-unnecessary-co-pilots)

[Kingfisher]

CaptProp, no such bloody luck. Fox Ninner, dont worry I'll be there for you. The words reported in the media could have been the Captain trying to reasure the world he was one of the good guys. Get well soon to all.

[filthyrichandcatflap]

I'm sure the Captain new how to open the door! The usual way... I don't think any of this stuff should be in the public domain.

Do you mean the spelling of knew ?:ok:

[Vc10Tail]

Might there have been a heated political debate in the cockpit prior to the Captains exit -for a breath of fresh air perhaps when the cockpit got too hot??
CNN witness quoting Captain mentioning “terrorism associated with Israel,Iran,Afghan” might point to the FO having one of these origins perhaps and there might have been a political debate going on in the cockpit. Bearing in mind that inside an American (USA and Canadian) airliner cabin mere MENTION of the word terrorist or worse a discussion of it will cause already paranoid people on-board to trigger an aggressive reaction (fight or flight response) which may have caused the already worked up Captain, barred from entry into HIS office to react in a less than civil manner..situation that is compounded by aggressive feedback from hypersensitive and paranoid passengers. We may not know the exact words uttered by the captain nor his body language before he was bounced by those heavy weight passengers.

Another point worth querying is..if a company pilot was in the cockpit (assuming after the incident and not whilst the Capt was in the toilet...CVR will expand on this) why didn’t he take over as Captain as is the normal rule with regards to Captain incapacitation SOP world wide and have the FO assist?May be he was also FO, may be he was not Type qualified?It would make more sense if the "relief Captain" boarded the cockpit on the ground to help with shut down and security checks or Voyage reporting.After such an incident I imagine the relief Captain would have to be well known to the crew to be allowed in...as a crew ID can be faked.
He is a colleague guys.Let us be gentlemen and give him the benefit of the doubt till proven guilty.I am sure justice will run its course.I pray if he was innocent to redeem himself after a proper investigation and fair hearing.

[akaSylvia]

Not sure I can cope with all these mights...

[Herod]

Since none of us were there, how do we KNOW that the F.O. was the sane and balanced one? All we have to go on is his word.

[probes]

the recent campaigns on banishing ignorance about mental illness have a long way to run.
Disorientation and incoherent speech need not be a sign of mental disorder. Very often it’s about brain blood vessels – a stroke (http://www.strokecenter.org/patients/about-stroke/what-is-a-stroke/), a TIA, a couple of more rare reasons – some part of the brain does not have adequate supply of blood and the person acts weird (and it really does look as if one were mad). Or some obstruction in the blood vessels of the neck.
Thus a bit early to declare him insane.

[pattern_is_full]

I don't know about the FO - but the video and witness accounts of the captain's behavior (leaving aside non-expert opinions) make it clear HE was not stable, as of that moment.

Sorry, but if there IS a problem with the FO, you don't run up and down the aisle babbling about Iraq and Afghanistan and prayer and bombs and try to break into an occupied loo. You quietly contact the cabin crew and/or the deadheading captain for assistance.

I believe this captain was, at that moment, of "diminished capacity." That does not mean he was "at fault" in some way. We've already hashed over the possible acute medical/medication explanations, and his prior career seems exemplary.

I do look forward to hearing his side of things, if he cares to share them.

[rgbrock1]

Canadian TV just aired an interview with one of the passengers on the flight. (Who happened to be sitting in seat 10A and supposedly witnessed the incident.)

According to this passenger the Captain exited the flight deck, leaving the cockpit door open, and tried barging into an occupied lavatory. He then ran up the aisle screaming "They're going to take us down" and urged the passengers to pray.

As he was being subdued by cabin crew and passengers he was spouting off about Al Qaeda, Afghanistan, bombs and souls.

The interviewed passenger also stated that prior to the Captain's exit from the flight deck, the aircraft was flying "erratically."

Again, this is the medja reporting so it should be taken with a large grain of salt. However, the interviewed passenger did seem sympathetic to the Captain's plight.

[bnt]

One aspect of this incident not mentioned here is that the pilot in question has a Twïtter account (https://twitter.com/#%21/cosbon1). Not updated since January, but he seems to have started it to promote a side business:
Join our team at ViSalus in helping others to better Health and Financial Prosperity @ www.MyVi.net/ozosbon (http://www.MyVi.net/ozosbon) ViSalus - Body by ViI'll save you the trouble of going to that website: it's a multilevel marketing (http://ozosbon.myvi.net/opportunity.html) scheme for this weight-loss stuff:

8Im9J5mtlcw

[Heathrow Harry]

Unfortunately I have been around three times when someone has had a full on breakdown - not in the air thank God.

it is both very frightening and, once it they are in the hands of the professionals, very sad

in each case it was someone pushed to their limit, a number of issues intersecting at the wrong time

he needs help and sympathy

[rgbrock1]

Or, as said by Friedrich Nietzsche: "Human. All Too Human".

For crying out loud, the guy is an airline captain yes. With all that entails. But he is also a human being. With all that entails as well.

He requires a lot of help and our collective sympathies. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Murexway]

Mixture: ......Also stop getting your underwear in a twist, because as has already been pointed out, the information has been in the public domain for some time now because the manufacturer wanted to secure a patent.

Good idea. Let's post it on the internet so every knuckleheadded idiot can find it without really trying. :rolleyes:

[Airbubba]

More background on the ill captain from a newspaper article:

The CEO/president of JetBlue says the crazed captain captured by Las Vegas-bound passengers after a mid-air meltdown was a old friend and “consummate professional.”

Airline executive Dave Barger said Capt. Clayton Osbon’s history offered no hints of any potential problems — and certainly nothing like his bizarre rant about terrorists and bombs.

“Obviously, the captain’s now in the hands of medical care, obviously under the custody of the FBI,” Barger said Wednesday morning on the “Today” show.

“I’ve know the captain personally for a long period of time, and there's been no indication of this at all in the past,” Barger said. “Consummate professional.”

...According to a 2011 magazine profile of Osbon, he spent his life flying and has flown 35 different types of aircraft. He did a stint piloting luxury jets around the world and lived in Portugal and France.

He tried to fly for the Navy but didn’t make the cut because of an astigmatism in his right eye.

“That broke my heart a little bit,” he told Lucas, who wrote him up for last year’s Richmond Hill Reflections “Guys in the Sky Issue.”

Osbon has been flying for jetBlue since the airline launched in 2000 and has a sideline selling weight-loss products, including a “shake mix that tastes like a cake mix.”

He told Lucas he’d like to start a new career as a motivational speaker.

“I’d like to think the world is more than just getting up in the morning, making a cup of coffee, going to work, coming home, kissing your wife good-night and going to bed,” he said.

A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”

A neighbor in Georgia who declined to be named called Osbon “perfectly normal.”

“One of his hobbies is kayaking. He’s very laid back guy as far as I can tell,” he said. “He’s helpful if you ask him for something. I don’t think he has ever had any problems with anyone here.”


Hero JetBlue passenger didn (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/jetblue-ceo-old-pal-capt-clayton-osbon-a-consummate-professional-article-1.1051954)

More on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/clayton.osbon

Was he carrying a gun, or has that programme been terminated?

Don't know if he was packing but some of the folks in the FFDO program worry me as they wax poetic about their collection of guns and huge stocks of ammo and how they will use them if Obama tries to take away their automatic weapons. FFDO's are supposedly screened for psych issues but a few of them appear to me to be on the lunatic fringe even for pilots. :eek:

[rgbrock1]

Anyone, regardless of profession, race, gender, etc., is not immune from mental disease. (IF, and that is a strong IF, that is the case here.) And sometimes the manifestations of mental disease appear suddenly and without warning. Even for those considered "with it."

IF this is mental disease - for want of a better term - then all anyone can hope for is that he receives the best of care on a path to speedy recovery.

[Loose rivets]

It's vital for him there's an outside causal influence. It's doubtful, given his beliefs and background that it will be recreational drugs. But what about so-called prescribed drugs? I'm sure the search is already on, but for no other reason than thinking outside the box, I'd have a look at:

and has a sideline selling weight-loss products, including a “shake mix that tastes like a cake mix.”

It seems too sudden to be 'mental illness' per se, and it would almost be a blessing if he goes down with something like viral meningitis . . . anything that's explainable and from which he can make a full recovery. His life as he knows it will be over if nothing is found.

[rgbrock1]

Loose:

As someone having first-hand experience with mental illness I can assure you that an "eruption" such as this is not at all uncommon.
The eruption can be exacerbated by various environmental factors leading to "totally losing it." Without any obvious symptoms leading up to an incident.

[probes]

agree with rgbrock1 - a close friend has had weird 'seizures' for about 5 years, after 2-3 months, basically out of the blue. Well, probably emotional stress - very good things or very bad things, but nothing excessive (to someone who's not in his skin). The first time I was sure he's gone mad. The doctors were sure it was a stroke. (By now they THINK they know what it could be, one of the rare things, not mental and he's ok between the attacks.) For me this bomb-talk totally makes sense - surely that's an issue for pilots. The person I know goes outside and starts looking for his business car he had 30 years ago, for example, and claims he has to do something he did then.
Things are complicated sometimes. Not always, of course, but still.

[fotoguzzi]

[not a pilot] Going by a CBS News report, an alleged eyewitness report, and others, a rough chronology seems to be:

1) Co-pilot invites pilot out of the cockpit.
2) Off-duty pilot sitting around row 13 is escorted to the cockpit by a cabin attendant
3) Pilot is restrained by passengers, apparently encouraged by a cabin crew public address announcement, as has been recounted on this forum.

Other reports claim that the captain tried to enter a lavatory. Perhaps someone knows the locations of lavatories on this particular airplane.

[mary meagher]

If nothing else, this is a reassuring event. CRM procedure for a First Officer who is unhappy with the behaviour of the Captain may have reinforced the resolve of the pilot in the right hand seat, and led to the safe outcome. Unlike some other outcomes on this forum, where the Captain is some sort of deity, and outranks everyone even when he's losing situational awareness....we have come a long way from KLM at Teneriffe.

[parabellum]

According to the news down here he is now in the hands of the FBI. Is that significant or routine? Doesn't sound like what I would have expected, I would have thought a full psychiatric evaluation was in order.

[mixture]

Murexway,

I'm sure with a few seconds on Google the "knuckleheads" could find the information easier than trawling through PPrune ! Hell, the "knuckleheads" probably have friends (either genuine or "recruited" with a bit of cash) who are engineers, line pilots or door manufacturer employees to give them the information ! :ugh:

As I said ... "security by obscurity is not security". If you built yourself a house in the middle of the Australian outback, with no locks on the doors..... told nobody you did it, told nobody what was inside it but placed a few million dollars worth of gold bars in it ..... would you sleep at night if you lived a few thousand miles away ? It's safe right because you've secured yourself by obscurity ? No, of course not. You would layer the security wouldn't you (CCTV, a safe, an alarm system, a guard etc. etc. ) ! Same goes for the aviation industry and its security.

[beamender99]

BBC News - JetBlue pilot Clayton Osbon charged over flight chaos (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17544301)

The US flight captain who suffered an apparent mental breakdown during a domestic flight has been charged with interfering with cabin crew.

[Lyman]

A guess, as a layman, would be BiPolar Disorder. High achievement interspersed with bizarre epsodes of incoherent behaviour, usually well controlled with medication. Unfortunately BP folk are not good with compliance/medication.
I am also guessing, but I believe FAA would not issue a Class I to someone with BPD I. If he was trying to maintain w/o meds, a breakdown was probably overdue. It is the damnedest thing, I had a dear friend with BPD. A super achiever, athlete, popular and quasi famous, especially within his profession.

Captain Osbon is Ill, not "bad". Let's be grownups, shall we?

[ChicagoHeights]

here comes the judge http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/osbon.complaint.and.affidavit.pdf?hpt=hp_t1

[[Steve]]

Just SLF, but I understand what he was (probably) going through in a small way.

If you're suffering from some sort of mental "issue" you're often not aware of it and you think your actions are correct and justified.

I'm sure that after being locked out of the flight deck he was absolute in his belief that something bad was happening, and he was not the reason. In fact I think I'd kinda hope that someone locked out of the flight deck when something bad *was* happening would try really hard to get back in, so his attempt is certainly noble (if -- in this case -- misguided).

I have a reaction to a certain common drug and it makes me very agitated. The first time I had it, I was caught unaware and did some things out of character. Now I know and I make sure I don't take the drug, or if I do (it's unfortunately sometimes required) that I prepare those around me (and myself to some extent). Even knowing that I am not acting "normal", and why, it's hard to moderate your behaviour. Not knowing makes it almost impossible.

I have no real idea, but his problem may be a very small one, magnified by circumstance.

I'm sure that if I was on board that flight I would have found it alarming, but nobody died and the FO seems to have handled the situation as best he could in the interests of the safety of the flight (less so for the Captain, but let's face it if you have to choose between the two, you unfortunately may not be able to have 2 winners).

I hope the Captain is not too badly treated (I read this morning that he's been charged, and I hope that's wrong).

With only 2 people on the flight deck this must have been an interesting situation. Another use for flight engineers? I would also not have wanted to be the FO. I'm sure he was justified in his actions, and I'm sure he knows that, but I'd still feel pretty bad about what I'd done to a colleague.

[Lyman]

Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. The charge of Interfering with a flight crew is appropriate, in the scheme of things, and having the CEO go to bat for you will help. He will get help, and his life will change, hopefully for the better.

I'm having a hard time looking for something to criticize in this event. Everyone involved seemed to do the right things, pretty much. Well, some of the posts, heh........?

[Jet Jockey A4]

Well now we know more about the incident and where and how it started if this report is correct.

It seems he showed up late to work, missed the pre-flight briefing and was incoherent prior to takeoff.

Well I hope they do find the problem for his sake. A breakdown of some sort sure seems to be a logical conclusion at this stage. Hope he get well soon.

I can't believe they have actually charged him of a criminal act without actually knowing what the cause of the problem was for his behavior.

Kudos to the FO and the rest of the crew for an uneventful ending.

As for politics now being involved on the tread it is to be expected in America because both sides cannot leave it alone.


Link to article...

U.S. charges screaming, incoherent JetBlue pilot - Yahoo! News Canada (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/u-charges-jetblue-pilot-interfering-during-flight-213428191.html)

Some quotes from the article...

An affidavit by an FBI agent shows that trouble for the flight started before the Airbus A320 took off from New York City's LaGuardia Airport. Osbon was late arriving at the airport, and missed the routine pre-flight crew briefing, agent John Whitworth said in the affidavit.

Whitworth said problems continued as the Airbus A320 was taking off.

"Osbon talked about his church and needed to focus," Whitworth said in the affidavit. "Osbon began talking about religion, but his statements were not coherent."

The rest of the flight crew began to get nervous when Osbon told them that "things just don't matter" and began yelling over the plane's radio system, telling air traffic controllers to "be quiet," according to Whitworth's account in the affidavit. "The First Officer became really worried when Osbon said, ‘We need to take a leap of faith'," Whitworth said in the document. "Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers and he talked about the sins in Las Vegas. At one point, Osbon told the (first officer), ‘We're not going to Vegas,' and began giving what was described as a sermon."

[Naki Boy]

You cant one day be perfectly healthy and the next day loose it, it's just doesn't happen. This man has either had an ongoing mental illness (psychotic illness) like Bipolar slowly developing away, or he has had something else happen medically. I doubt quite highly that he would be able to get away with BP in aviation. People who have serious mental illnesses do not know that anything they are doing is out of the ordinary. So their flighty ideas would stand out and be picked up by family, friends and his work profession.

I feel so sorry for this man and hope that he recovers soon. Well done to the F/O. He did everything right I believe.:D

[Ollie Onion]

I tell you what, it is bloody lucky that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. I have only been flying commercially for airlines for 12 years but the way the industry has changed is remarkable. I now have to put up with totally over the top security procedures on a daily basis, companies crying poor every day and constantly trying to cut my pay and conditions or threaten me with redundancy, threat of terrorism, increasing perception by the public that we are just button pushers and finally the increased instances of passengers being disruptive.

If you are already in a slightly fragile state due to 'outside' events I can see that along with all the above pressure you wouldn't really need a big push to make you lose the plot. It happened last month with the Cabin Crew Member that lost it, now we see it here with the Captain. Lets hope that the next event isn't actually in the flight deck.

[Loose rivets]

You cant one day be perfectly healthy and the next day loose it,


I'm still inclined to feel you're right. Usually there are clues well before a major BP departure from the norm.

My experience: I have posted on JB, I have, or had, three friends who were seriously Bp. All of them are dead. One murdered at 22years old, one suicide and one -? After a lifetime of just having a mix of friends, this cluster happened within c 5 years. Very puzzling and very distressing.

While thinking about this today, I recalled a captain, a senior man who was a pall of the owner, just started doing odd things. Our shiny new jets were not quite up to his standard inasmuch as the cockpits were not clean. I recall vividly him licking his finger and rubbing at the dirt and proclaiming, "see, duck egg blue. That's how it should look." He re-licked the filthy finger and repeated the process - several times. He then went on to suggesting brushes be issued to the engineers so that the dust between the radios could be swept out of the groves. I heard later he'd been delaying flights while dust was removed and the duck egg blue restored.

I imagine the next game of golf with the boss was a little strained.

I've wrestled the controls from my captain in the Innsbruck valley, and years later, stormed out of a very good job because of the bizarre and very, very dangerous practices of a captain in a well-known independent. I'd had enough, and no one would listen. So many respected captains knew, but no one did anything.

It had gone on for over a year.

The thing is, in this case, were there any clues prior to that day? And if there were, was there anyone that had the skills, and indeed the balls to take action? People I had admired were manifestly unable, or unwilling, to make these difficult decisions, so are modern management any better?

I'm sure they will be now. Cow. Gate. etc.

[The Old Fat One]

Well done the crew.

Rare (thankfully) but definitely not unknown. I have seen several similar instances in the military. Usually the guy (girl) just disappears from the picture.

[truckflyer]

Strange attitude sensed here, some justification that the Captain must have been ill and suddenly snapped!

While the Egypt Air 990 accident, it was widely accepted because the pilot was muslim, he was a nutter that deliberately brought down the aircraft!

I do agree that we should not pre-judge Captain Osborn, however early indications are not good with regards to his mental state or agenda!

Everybody here seems to want that there is some rational explanation for his actions, sudden mental illness, bipolar, brain tumour etc.

What if there is none?

There are fanatics in all walks of life unfortunately, and sometimes they do bad things!

I think if Osborn turns out to be one of the latter, it will be very difficult for colleagues and fellow pilots to ever accept this!

Since talk seems to have been about religion this morning, who knows what he had experienced this morning, maybe he had heard an inner voice, and was following orders from the all-mighty!

Watching some religious documentaries from the US in the past, it does not seem to be something unusual, with their all mighty double standards where unfortunately religion takes to strong prominence in some peoples life, it is probably just as scary to watch some fanatic religious Christian hill-billy running around, as some of those extreme fanatic Muslims constantly finding a way to find an excuse to blow something up!

Only in America, could you see something like this happen!

[lederhosen]

Sometimes things end much worse. There was the Japan Airlines captain who acted bizarrely during flight and then crashed his DC8 deliberately short of the runway into Haneda bay many years ago killing several people, including the poor flight engineer who tried to restrain him. He had been taken off international flying previously, but had continued to fly.

[Bishop of Hounslow]

Clearly these events are very disturbing for everyone involved, mainly because they lack any meaning and occur totally out of character to the most unlikely people. A normally rational individual with a great record loses the plot and goes berserk - it is difficult not to feel both alarmed, but also a sense of deep sadness for the man involved and his family. I do, however, disagree with the view that all bad behaviour is essentially related to insanity in some form or other. If you do not have a factor in for pure badness then you are missing the point - that, incidentally, is not what I am suggesting here.

I am just concerned that this case is being compared to Sgt Bales in Afghanistan or someone who decides to strap a pile of explosives to himself, walk into a restaurant full of random strangers and blow himself up whilst believing all along he is doing a good thing. These are not comparable events and we should be careful in drawing comparisons.

I am a Brit and we do not have the same liberal-conservative debate being fought out at every available opportunity here. Because the Captain involved was a professing Christian and did not vote for Barack Obama does not make him a 'wacko', any more than him being a Muslim makes him a terrorist or being a liberal makes him a child-killing pervert. These characterisations are very common in the States, but not so much so here in Europe.

For what it is worth, there are people who get up in the morning and rationally decide to kill people - there are bad people out there who want to do terrible things. If your only point of reference is to remove personal responsibility for bad behaviour and explain it in terms of environment or mental illness you can never truly grasp the situation. To see murder in terms of bi-polar disorder or that someone must have trod on his hamster when he was six, then you will never truly understand human nature. Evil does exist and people do some truly terrible things by choice and with full sanity. Just read some history books and find out what people did in Auschwitz and Belsen simply because they could - it is truly horrific. Therefore, there is a balance here - by all means recognise the existence of mental illness, but we must also see that bad people do exist and do terrible things by choice. I am open to any explanation of this case - on the surface of things it seems like a clear case of mental illness that will go on to cause massive heartbreak to the individual, his company and his family.

[Were Erick]

Very terrible and unfortunate.

[CaptainProp]

@ PukingDog. The FBI report in the link quotes the Captain as talking about his church and needing to "focus". It then goes on quoting him saying "things just don't matter", "we need to take a leap of faith". He then spoke about sins in Vegas and stated "we are not going to Vegas".

According to a passenger interviewed by FBI he stated "pray ******* now for Jesus Christ" and then "yelled jumbled comments about Jesus, September 11th, Iraq, Iran, and terrorists"

Mentally ill or not,

"devout Christian/conservative republican", pretty much indicates a nut case. I fly with lots of these types...generally ranting about Obama and harboring inordinate fears and pathological hatred of all Muslims and "liberals".

...."Nut case" as a general label perhaps a bit strong, but sounds to me like this statement is bang on....

[fireflybob]

Never mind the pros and cons of MLM (and please do not confuse legitimate MLM with Pyramid schemes and the like) what is relevant is why this individual had to think in terms of starting a home based business anyway.

We have seen Terms and Conditions for airline pilots drop to Victorian levels all over the world now. On top of that the Captain of an aeroplane is treated like a "worker drone in the collective" now - years ago pilots were treated with much respect and benefited therefore from considerable high self-esteem in the profession.

[CaptainProp]

I guess it could just be that the guy wanted to do something else, something more, than just flying. I know a lot of guys making more than $200K / year flying but still have a business on the side, myself included. Some guys have their own little flying schools, some work extra as instructors for CAE/Flight Safety and other training organizations, some import stuff from china and sell over internet, arrange guided mountain tours, scuba dive instructors etc etc. For myself its not really about the money, it's about working with people, getting involved in something outside flying...

[ZFT]

Like most people here, can only comment on media reports, but a query. If the poor man was running up and down the cabin in an apparent aggravated state, why didn't a Sky Marshall (hopefully gently) intervene?

[SaturnV]

ZFT, every flight doesn't have a Sky Marshall.
______________
From the New York Times,
A 2006 study by the F.A.A. of post-mortem toxicological evaluations of 4,143 pilots killed in accidents from 1993 to 2003 found that 223 were using mood-altering drugs like antidepressants, according to The Associated Press. Only 14 of the pilots who tested positive for the drugs reported a psychological condition on their medical forms, and only one reported using a mood-altering drug. None of the pilots determined to have used neurological medications had reported that on their medical forms, the AP reported.
I'll just note that the number of post-mortems seems high if all the accidents were plane crashes.

[2EggOmelette]

With numbers like that i can only assume that it takes all fatal air accidents (Comercial, Private and Military) from most if not all ICAO countries. 5% of 4000 fatalities is quite a few even for a 10 year period in regards to mental conditions/drug use.
:eek:

[rgbrock1]

I fail to see any correlation, whatsoever, between MLM and this captain: one has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his actions.

Also, to state that one cannot be "normal" one day and then go off the deep end the next, is faulty thinking. It happens. And it happens on a daily basis to people who appear "normal" beforehand. Believe me, I know.

The warning signs were probably there all along. Either they were ignored or swept under the proverbial rug. But the day of reckoning was coming on like a homeward bound freight train. Most unfortunately, this freight train wrecked.

I do, however, see a correlation between this airline captain and his observed behavior and U.S. Army SSgt. Robert Bales. Both suffer from extreme forms of mental illness. And in the case of the airline captain, the outcome could have been a lot more extreme than the disaster created by SSgt. Bales.

[malr]

how do we KNOW that the F.O. was the sane and balanced one? All we have to go on is his word.

Well, that and an aircraft safely on the ground.

[rgbrock1]

How do we know the F.O. was the sane and balanced one?

Because he's not the one who ran through the cabin telling passengers to pray to f***ing Jesus Christ and who rambled on about 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, the sins of Las Vegas, push the throttles to the stops, etc.

Also because the F.O. was the person who landed the aircraft and who had the wherewithal to ascertain the situation and remedy it.

[iskyfly]

Well now we know more about the incident and where and how it started if this
report is correct.

It seems he showed up late to work, missed the
pre-flight briefing and was incoherent prior to takeoff.


Isn't it a requirement that the captain a sign a flight dispatch release, which is a legal document, that among other things verifying his physical and mental health will allow him to successfully complete the flight?

[rgbrock1]

I guess the other question is: if the Captain was perceived as being "incoherent" prior to take-off then why was the flight not halted immediately?

[sevenstrokeroll]

regarding seling the diet milkshakes...

did it occur to any of you that he was using the product himself and somehow got a very low blood sugar causing this odd behavior? an aviation medical examiner from Chicago suggested that low blood sugar could cause this sort of behavior.

the captain showed up late to work...perhaps having missed a meal, replaced it with the diet shake and didn't know how it would affect him. some products have an energy boost chemical and might also cause a problem

the actual marketing of the shake doesn't matter. I went on a medically supervised fast and for the first three days I did not allow myself to fly. After my body had become use to the new levels I felt fine and flew.

as to the person mentioning signing a dispatch release....in the new order taking the airplane from the gate is the same thing as signing something.


back in the old days you would actually face to face with another airline employee who would sort of check you out in a casual way.

[Murexway]

"....Same goes for the aviation industry and its security....."

Mixture:

Thanks for the long-winded security lecture, but as an ex-military pilot and retired Captain for a major airline I DO know a little about the industry :E

[Loose rivets]

So much of this case revolves around whether or not he was giving any indication of mental problems before that day. I have an intense interest in this sad case, no doubt because of my experiences as a F/O, and indeed years later as a captain.

I hesitate to go down memory lane on this one, it has caused me a lot of personal grief in more ways than one, but years ago as a training F/O, I carried a particular captain's problems around for months. I was told no one else would fly with him. Would I please carry on.

Months of being a captain without a command. Trying to do his job while doing mine, it was flattering at first, but things got so bad I started one report after another. Nothing was done. It's wrong to say no one listened, they did, but still did nothing. The last flight I did before my enraged departure was so simply off the scale madness, that if it was put in a novel, no one would believe it.

The respected captain that checked him out said to me, "I allowed the fact that he was an ex ******* ******* captain, to influence my decision."

The chief training captain said, "I knew this was coming."

Yet nothing was done.

Just imagine, half way between Barcelona and Palma - "Tell them I'm going visual."

Masses of protests from me, but then time taken up with trying to explain to ATC, things like why we were over Inca - having gone on a tour of the north end of the island, and why we were at 1,000'. And that wasn't a particularly bad day.

The final straw was Rome. "checks done?" "no, we've only just got a GPU." (APU busted.)

Then an engine started.

I was grabbing for the parking brake and calling atc as our girl rushed in and shouted there were passengers on the ventral stairs. Given it was a BAC 1-11, that was a tad more than he usually threw at me. God, how I wished I'd shut down and ordered the passengers to be offloaded.

What happened next would no doubt have backfired on me if anyone had given a damn.

Fuel looked normal. 8 tonnes, nothing in the middle. Acceleration was Morris Minor-like. I fire-walled the power about 1/3 way down the runway. No reaction from the 'captain'. We flew past one of Rome's most important monuments - at about the same height.

It was some moments later I saw a small amount of fuel in the middle tank. Over the next 20 mins it increased, until it was showing full. 3 tonnes overweight, and the temp chopped. Even the looooong climb brought no reaction from the left.

No reaction either, when he finally deigned to look at the tech log.

Usual lining up with the wrong airfield, and the double, double scotch on landing. He declined my offer of taxiing as we veered towards the edge of the taxiway - several times.

I prayed for the ground engineer to tell me the centre fuel dial was at zero. It was. Not having power fooled the system, and despite knowing that aircraft well, it certainly fooled me. No one could ever explain why the gauge took half an hour to read full.

42 years later, I still have all the paperwork for that flight - I had it in my hand when I was told to, "Stop! - you'll have to get yourself a QC, and say these things in high court if you want to talk about a captain like that."

Nearly 30 years after the event, a quite extraordinary chance meeting with the captain's old boss in ******* ******* said to me, "you can not tell me that man flew again." He seemed genuinely taken aback. "We tried to help him, but couldn't. Severe alcoholic. Possibly . . . " He'd lowered his voice, but I think, in fact I'm almost sure, I heard the word, psychotic.

If he had lost his license on medical grounds, my life would have been totally different.

To this day I don't understand. I don't understand people. If I've learned anything, it is that there is no standard human mind. Every single person on this planet can be affected by something. You can know someone all your life and then be stunned to find some hidden facet of their character that you wouldn't have believed possible. Sometimes, it's very hard to accept.

At the end of the day, it's a very, very fine line between what we call normal, and . . . something else.

[SaturnV]

Let's be clear.

The charging document (the criminal complaint) states
"Initially, he did not exhibit any bizarre behavior. [During climb-out from JFK], Osbon said something to the FO about being evaluated by someone; the FO was not sure what Osbon meant. Osbon talked about his church, and needing to "focus". Osbon asked the FO to take the controls and work the radios. Osbon began talking about religion, but his statements were not coherent...... Osbon yelled over the radio at air traffic control and instructed them to be quiet.

Nothing in that document indicates there was unusual behavior while the aircraft was at the gate, or prior to take-off.

[Murexway]

As for the federal criminal charges, they're likely just a necessary means to hold him so that they can do a complete investigation. While the statements in the affidavit are all true, everyone realizes (at least to this point) that the guy probably lacked criminal intent. However, without actual charges being filed, he could legally walk out of the hospital and disappear and no one could stop him.

[fireflybob]

As for the federal criminal charges, they're likely just a necessary means to hold him so that they can do a complete investigation. While the statements in the affidavit are all true, everyone realizes (at least to this point) that the guy probably lacked criminal intent. However, without actual charges being filed, he could legally walk out of the hospital and disappear and no one could stop him.

In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?

[Murexway]

Mental health holds vary by state - don't think there's a federal provision. In California it used to be section 5150, Florida has the Baker Act. But it's generally only a short hold - whatever is in the statute, 72 hours or so. Texas has a provision for brief psychiatric emergency holds, but I'm not sure for how long. And it can involve court hearings, medication administration, etc. In the case of a federal crime, a federal criminal complaint is faster and simpler.

[Airbubba]

42 years later, I still have all the paperwork for that flight - I had it in my hand when I was told to, "Stop! - you'll have to get yourself a QC, and say these things in high court if you want to talk about a captain like that."


Decades later and across the pond things are quite different. The wacko cowboys who used to be tolerated by the airline are pretty much a thing of the past in U.S. flying from my observation. The Sky God captain concept is long gone and the PIC is more of a CYA manager and whipping boy (or girl).

Since the Buffalo commuter crash a few years ago, the feds seem to be coming down on those few folks who never passed their checkrides on the first try and were given endless training. Also, the 'loose cannons' and eccentrics are now under the microscope regardless of their seniority or seat.

A couple of examples of how these folks were tolerated in the past is contained in the accident reports for FedEx 705, the 1994 hijacking and FedEx 647 in 2003, one of the MEM landing accidents. Auburn Calloway, the hijacker, had exhibited bizzare behavior and had a very poor civilian and military employment record prior to joining FedEx. The FO on FDX 647 had a dismal training history and a couple of FAA 609 (now 709) rides prior to being hired and continued training difficulties after employment.

In the past, a small handful of these folks would be carried and both the company and the union would look the other way as they continuously failed training, missed trips and had issues with coworkers.

Recently things seem to be changing. The feds are busting folks who have been captains for years and could only seem pass their checkrides after several extra sims and with the 'right' evaluator. Folks who act oddly are more likely to be approached by the union's professional standards committee to see if they need help or time off. However, as mentioned on another post, if a male pilot chooses to sometimes wear women's clothes it must now be considered 'normal' since it is a 'gender identity issue'.

regarding seling the diet milkshakes...

did it occur to any of you that he was using the product himself and somehow got a very low blood sugar causing this odd behavior? an aviation medical examiner from Chicago suggested that low blood sugar could cause this sort of behavior

Some of the pilots where I work are peddling this 'miracle supplement' and selling shares in some related bogus marketing and lifestyle coaching scheme. I also wonder if Captain Osborn may have fallen for his own BS and hit the supplement too hard. A few years ago a pilot that I know was very confused and combative in the crew lounge for a while after waking up from an Ambien fueled jetlag nap.

Years ago pilots were selling some super noni juice that was a miracle cure for what ails you. Before that they were selling shares in some tax church that was a great deal until they got sent to prison.

In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?

Mental health holds vary by state - don't think there's a federal provision. In California it used to be section 5150, Florida has the Baker Act. But it's generally only a short hold - whatever is in the statute, 72 hours or so. Texas has a provision for brief psychiatric emergency holds, but I'm not sure for how long. And it can involve court hearings, medication administration, etc. In the case of a federal crime, a federal criminal complaint is faster and simpler.

Trying to get someone who is obviously sick hospitalized against their will can be incredibly difficult in the U.S. In Georgia there is a 10-13 hold which can be extended a few days to a 10-15 involuntary hospitalization. But, unless the person is charged with a crime or is observed by a threat or overt act to be a danger to themselves or others, the police will do nothing to help keep the person in the hospital even with family approval and doctor's orders. The patient has the 'right' to leave the hospital and wander off into the streets in a manic state leaving the distraught family to wait for the next call from the cops or the coroner.

[thepotato232]

The question of criminal intent is going to have to be decided by a jury. This incident was too visible and too wacky not to result in an arrest. And they charged him with interfering with a flight crew, not a full-on charge of attempted hijacking.

And are "MLM" and "pyramid scheme" not interchangeable terms where you guys are from? Not that this is anything to hang him over or anything.

[rgbrock1]

The question of criminal intent? Where did that come from? The man was suffering from some kind of severe mental illness. There was no criminal intent involved.
Or do you know something no one else does?

[thepotato232]

All we REALLY know is that this guy tried to interfere with a flight crew. How do you know if he was mentally ill? You put him in custody and have doctors look at him. Until then, you treat him as the law dictates.

If this guy was a mental facility escapee off his meds, then yes, we could already make a determination that there was no criminal intent. This man has no history of such. Until a couple of days ago, this man was indistinguishable from any other captain on the line. Irrational violence and religious zealotry are not hallmarks of a healthy mind, but they are not mutually exclusive from criminal intent.

[rgbrock1]

Just because someone has no history of obvious mental illness does not give that person a clean bill of health. Can you always distinguish someone with mental illness from someone who is "normal"? No, you cannot.
Mental illness can manifest itself, overtly, in many ways. And sometimes in ugly ways.

Airbubba:

I found your comment about dietary supplements, such as those the Captain was supposedly involved in, interesting. And especially after watching a video of one of the passengers - ex NYPD I think - who was sitting in row 10C. He claims that there was a period of 15-20 minutes before he helped subdue the captain in which he observed the captain drinking copious amounts of water and exhibiting signs of "cotton mouth". I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the captain had imbibed in a bit too much of the wares he was trying to market? Who knows what the contents are of this dietary aid?

[rgbrock1]

All we REALLY know is that this guy tried to interfere with a flight crew

He WAS a member of the flight crew and in command of the aircraft.

[thepotato232]

First of all, the fact that he was part of a flight crew does not make it impossible for him to interfere with a flight crew. You may want to review the events aboard certain FedEx and Egyptair flights. And just to be clear, you're arguing that this man was so obviously NOT in control of his faculties that we have no right to arrest and charge him, but he WAS in control of the airplane at that moment. Sorry, but I would classify a captain declaring his refusal to complete the flight and determination to instead "take a leap of faith" (among other things) as abdication of command. If I'm in that cockpit, he's not the captain anymore, he's a threat to himself and others.

You may not be familiar with how the justice system works, but here you go:
A crime takes place. The police detain the people involved. If there is enough evidence that a crime took place and that a particular person is responsible for it, that person gets arrested and charged. He will then get his day in court. Insanity then becomes viable as a defense, if it can be demonstrated.

As it currently stands. this man has no background of mental illness at all. Legally, he must be treated based on what he did. Doctors are evaluating him RIGHT NOW to determine if he had criminal intent. If (more like "when") said doctors determine he is/was out of his mind, that evidence is entered and the case proceeds accordingly. And if they really wanted to throw the book at him, attempted hijacking carries a lot more weight than interfering with a flight crew.

Not to whack you over the head with the implications here, but this would not be the first guy in history who decided God wanted him to pull some funny business with an airplane. Are you proposing we make that an absolute defense from prosecution?

[rgbrock1]

I am proposing no such thing. From the reports of the captain's actions on the aircraft it should be apparent to anyone that here was a tortured soul who finally "went off the deep end", so to speak. His snapping did not happen overnight.
There was probably a progression of events within his mind, apparently noticed by no one, that led to this.

The problem I have is with some who, not knowing the underlying causes, simply label a person "criminal" when the intent of that person was anything but criminal. Perhaps in the captain's mind he really believed something which those of us who are considered "normal", scoff at. I have known a few people who are medicated schizophrenics. They are fine. Until they miss one of their doses. Then, the voices in the head start. And they really do believe someone is talking to their mind. For the observer, it's a very eerie experience.
For the victim, it is real. And if that voice in the head tells you that maybe it's a good idea to take that airplane you're flying down, then you do so. Regardless of the outcome.

[Loose rivets]

Airbubba said: A few years ago a pilot that I know was very confused and combative in the crew lounge for a while after waking up from an Ambien fueled jetlag nap.


Sleeping Pills Side Effects Lawsuit (http://web.sokolovelaw.com/sleeping_pills?mm_campaign=3bcb3937dd275b90ea98e3e65455a42d&keyword=ambien%20side%20effects&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Sleeping_Pills&utm_term=ambien%20side%20effects&gclid=CJucub3jjK8CFcNdTAodbW52Cg)


I was aware of this one. Along with the 300% increase in the chance of having an accident after using Zolpidem. Ambien I think is a slow release form of Zolpidem - an initial blast, and then a trickle. Just what you don't want for an 'early.'

From the lawyer's link. Frightening.

Ambien has been identified as one of the top 10 drugs found in impaired drivers, according to state toxicology laboratories.

[thepotato232]

I at no time labeled this man a criminal. I labeled him a threat. I said that, given the facts of the case, the only rationally and legally sound choice is to arrest him and charge him pending the results of his psychiatric evaluation. When he is (almost certainly) determined to be of unsound mind when the crime took place, we may proceed from there.

I have spent enough time in the company of psychiatrists and the mentally ill to know that mental illness does terrible things to the people who have it, and they often have no means of determining real from fantasy or right from wrong. But this man is not a diagnosed schizophrenic. He has no history of hallucinations or violent outbursts I'm aware of. Prior to the events of that flight, he was (strictly legally speaking) a sane human being with a long history of rational action as a flight crew member.

The police haven't locked this man up and thrown away the key. They're doing their jobs so the psychiatrists can do theirs - determining if this proud and respected career pilot now suffers from a psychosis that has heretofore gone unnoticed in his private and professional lives. That is not a judgement I want anybody except medical professionals to make. And until they do, the police and the prosecutors have a job to do.

[Airbubba]

The question of criminal intent is going to have to be decided by a jury. This incident was too visible and too wacky not to result in an arrest. And they charged him with interfering with a flight crew, not a full-on charge of attempted hijacking.

The question of criminal intent? Where did that come from? The man was suffering from some kind of severe mental illness. There was no criminal intent involved.
Or do you know something no one else does?

It might not even go to a federal grand jury if the U.S. Attorney decides not to proceed with the indictment. However, given what we know I feel it is in everyone's best interests that Captain Osborn is receiving medical treatment whether or not he is well enough to know he needs it. The pro forma legal complaint ensures that he can't just walk out the door and disappear into the Texas night.

Captain Osborn does not have a union for support but JetBlue's CEO's positive statements to the media hopefully bode well for his future as he addresses the legal, medical, and administrative issues in his treatment and recovery.

I found your comment about dietary supplements, such as those the Captain was supposedly involved in, interesting. And especially after watching a video of one of the passengers - ex NYPD I think - who was sitting in row 10C. He claims that there was a period of 15-20 minutes before he helped subdue the captain in which he observed the captain drinking copious amounts of water and exhibiting signs of "cotton mouth". I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the captain had imbibed in a bit too much of the wares he was trying to market? Who knows what the contents are of this dietary aid?

I know in the past many of these miracle diet supplements contained ephedra which I believe was banned in the U.S. almost a decade ago. Cotton mouth and those telltale lines of dried saliva on the lips seemed to be common symptoms with coworkers who were taking those 'miracle weight loss' supplements. Perhaps the 'Body by Vi' milkshakes have some similar as yet unregulated supplement.

I'd sure like to believe there is a miracle way to lose weight but I know I'm kidding myself if I fall for one of these periodic scams.

Take a look at the 'Body by Vi' sales pitch, it certainly doesn't seem to appeal to your medical knowledge or even to your intellect for that matter:

90 Day Challenge (http://visalus.com/body-by-vi-challenge/90-day-challenge)

[rgbrock1]

Airbubba:

Not meaning to hijack this thread but when you think about it, all these miracle diet plans, dietary supplements, "amazing ways to lose weight fast", etc. are all scams. And many of these dietary supplements are not regulated by the FDA.
Thus some of the ingredients are, shall we say, dubious at best?

Delve down into the web site, via the link you provided, and find the page which shows the ingredients in some of these "miracles" of modern technology. I am always hesitant about anything which contains a "proprietary blend" of anything.
And especially when the ingredients of this proprietary blend are not listed.

[Herod]

Looks like my original posts were wrong. I was merely suggesting that at the time we didn't know the facts. Now that we do (at least some of them), I can come down on the side of the F.O. doing the right thing.

[WanganuiLad]

Fireflybob asked " In UK people can be detained under the Mental Health Act - is there nothing similar in the USA?"Probably not, half the country would be in the bin ...

[sevenstrokeroll]

by the way guys, i think I was the one to mention this milkshake/diet supplement deal.

ephedra came to mind...and even more

can you imagine if he had a sinus problem and took sudafed/pseudopherin plus
a diet supplement that had something questionable in it...throw in a coffee
and a five hour energy shot and bam...


I think the govt charged the captain in order to keep him after the 72 hour psych
hold

[Northbeach]

As a proud U.S. citizen I am enraged by your wildly uninformed preposterous posting. What were you thinking :mad: := ?

Probably not, half the country would be in the bin


Get your facts right; it would be well over the 50% number you referenced :ok:.

Northbeach,

[SaturnV]

Osbon's father was killed when the plane he was piloting crashed near Daytona Beach Florida on April 14, 1995. Plane ran out of fuel with right wing tanks empty and left wing tanks with adequate fuel.

N577M plane crash in FL details (http://www.planecrashmap.com/plane/fl/N577M)

The FO has been identified in the media as Jason Dowd of Salem Ohio.

[Chu Chu]

I was just reading earlier this this week that polydipsia (excessive water consumption) is not uncommon is patients with schizophrenia. Of course, I have no idea what happened here, but that might be one way the facts could fit together.

[Murexway]

Osbon's father was killed when the plane he was piloting crashed near Daytona Beach Florida on April 14, 1995. Plane ran out of fuel with right wing tanks empty and left wing tanks with adequate fuel.

Wow. Interesting........

[PukinDog]

CaptainProp

...."Nut case" as a general label perhaps a bit strong, but sounds to me like this statement is bang on....

The guy had a meltdown. I'm sure it's not uncommon for anyone having one to be ranting or raving about whatever particular issues he/she have strong opinions about. It really doesn't matter what they are at that point as I'm sure its not an uncommon manifestation. The guy could have been an atheist raving-on about abortions, offshore drilling, and cuts to school lunch programs or there are reptilians living below Denver International. Who cares?

As a NON-devout Christian/republican/whatever-the-guy-was, it still strikes me as pathelogically obsessive about politics and religion to try and co-opt the incident into political statement (as the poster I responded to was) as if the guy's personal life or political views equate to causation just because they were apparent during his meltdown. It's even more obsessive to proclaim it represents some kind of new-scary "norm".

If you think that's "bang on", then perhaps you're one of those politically-obsessed bores yourself, or the kind of vehement anti-religious type who's so consumed with worry about other people going to church that it becomes a religion unto itself.

[Cross_check]

I feel sorry for both the pilot and the cabin crew member. The fact that social media and the functions to post stuff on the net prior to even landing is scary. I you tubed safety demo's and there was one where the purser had said 'In the likely event of cabin depressurization' - now on the net for the world to see.

There are thousands of people from all walks of life with mental and medical issues and are usually medicated. The FA case she apparently had not taken her meds.. for that to happen like it did she must not have had her meds for a few days..

The Captain should not have been annoyed about being locked out.. as there are ways to deal with situations like that (Wink Wink).. LOL I would have just taken a seat and enjoyed an inflight bevvy..:ok:

[david1300]

@SaturnV - your post above is ambiguous - it can be read as either Osbon or his father was piloting the crashed aircraft.

Just to clarfy - it was the father who was piloting, and he (the father/pilot) and 1 passenger were killed in the crash.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Daft thread now.

The CM1 went spare, the FO did the right thing, and the cabin crew managed the situation engaging help from able-bodied male passengers.

And now the skipper is being asessed medically.

All in order.

[ironbutt57]

Wonder if someone slipped something into his Cheerios...:eek:

[camel]

heard that he had been known to 'hug his pillow' thinking of marie .waiting for him in Amaaaarillllo:ok:

[akaSylvia]

I'm curious - who is the PIC when an off-duty captain goes up to assist in a situation like this?

I was curious about this too. The JetBlue FAQ on the incident says the FO was PIC throughout.

What would have happened if there hadn’t been an off-duty Captain on the flight to step in?
Both Captains and First Officers are trained to fly our aircraft. Our First Officer was the pilot in command yesterday (in control of the aircraft from takeoff to landing) and the off-duty Captain stepped in to help.

[CherokeeDriver]

The most unfortunate thing here is that the Captain became ill whilst operating an aircraft. If he had his medical episode on the ground (in pre-flight or whereever) it would be much, much less of an issue. I only want to make these comments;
1. I hope he gets the medical help and support he needs
2. Well done to the FO/PF for realising there was a danger to the aircraft and dealing with it professionally.
3. I work in a high stress environment (a trading floor in an investment bank). I've seen people break down VERY rapidly and VERY completely. I've also been lucky enough to work with them again, many months later, when they have had their medical condition stablisied and the underlying factors of the break down (root cause) corrected.

There but for the grace of god go I. Some posters in this thread need a very long hard look at their attitude to a fellow human.

[John Farley]

Thank you for that. One of the more sensible and helpful posts on this thread.

With the benefit of hindsight it will be interesting to see if his crew felt his pre-flight behaviour offered a serious clue that things were far from normal or whether it was all within the bounds of 'he was having a bad day' - such as we all have from time to time

Apart from the tragedy of the man himself I suspect that the event overall may provide positive lessons for crews that will be taught in the future in the CRM context.

[Murexway]

CherokeeDriver: The most unfortunate thing here is that the Captain became ill whilst operating an aircraft. If he had his medical episode on the ground (in pre-flight or whereever) it would be much, much less of an issue. I only want to make these comments;
1. I hope he gets the medical help and support he needs
2. Well done to the FO/PF for realising there was a danger to the aircraft and dealing with it professionally.
3. I work in a high stress environment (a trading floor in an investment bank). I've seen people break down VERY rapidly and VERY completely. I've also been lucky enough to work with them again, many months later, when they have had their medical condition stablisied and the underlying factors of the break down (root cause) corrected.

There but for the grace of god go I. Some posters in this thread need a very long hard look at their attitude to a fellow human.The reason that you don't understand the attitude of some posters on this forum is because you're not a professional pilot, as the name of the forum states. An airliner cockpit at 35,000 feet isn't a financial trading floor. While the consequences of a breakdown on the trading floor can be fatal financially, the consequences of a breakdown inflight can be fatal for hundreds of humans. Even doctors only kill one at a time - not hundreds. Professional airline pilots, especially captains, hold themselves and their peers to a standard unknown by those who have never shouldered such responsibility. At my company, which has an up or out policy, there have literally been suicides during captain upgrades. And even after making it through, some elect to bid back to F/O rather than accept the pressure that comes from sitting there at night over an ocean with hundreds onboard; thinking of all the possible things that can go catastrophically wrong, knowing that for many of them there is no procedure in the book, realizing that legally and morally you're the final authority for what will be done to deal with anything that happens, accepting that you will be held ultimately responsible for any outcome, and having the self-confidence to believe that no matter what happens you'll manage to get it right - not horribly wrong. At the end of every flying day as I lay in bed, I would replay in my mind every single thing that happened in the pit that day (on the ground and in the air), analyze anything that wasn't done absolutely perfectly, and decide how I would do it better the next time. I consider myself extremely lucky to have never had any incidents during my career, because in the back of your mind you always know that some things can happen that are simply beyond any human being's ability to cope. Even having been retired for a few years now, I can clearly remember every single thing that I really screwed up in my career and despite the fact that I was able to successfully manage them, I still consider them personal failures on my part. That's the hard look at the attitude toward the fellow humans in the back of the jet that's required.

[Lyman]

At some point, there is an inescapable risk. Perhaps some here may think better of getting a bit too far (in public) into cockpit issues. It's a business, after all.

[BOAC]

there have literally been suicides during captain upgrades. And even after making it through, some elect to bid back to F/O rather than accept the pressure that comes from sitting there at night over an ocean with hundreds onboard; thinking of all the possible things that can go catastrophically wrong, knowing that for many of them there is no procedure in the book, realizing that legally and morally you're the final authority for what will be done to deal with anything that happens, accepting that you will be held ultimately responsible for any outcome, and having the self-confidence to believe that no matter what happens you'll manage to get it right - not horribly wrong. - from where I see it, some pilots in that company are probably in the wrong job. Worrying indeed. Which airline please?

[akaSylvia]

John Farley:
With the benefit of hindsight it will be interesting to see if his crew felt his pre-flight behaviour offered a serious clue that things were far from normal or whether it was all within the bounds of 'he was having a bad day' - such as we all have from time to time

Apparently not.

According to the affidavit (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/osbon.complaint.and.affidavit.pdf?hpt=hp_t1), they did not notice anything until after the climb-out.

The crew members told me that the captain, Clayton F. Osbon, showed up at JFK later than he should have for the flight and missed the crew briefing. Initially, he did not exhibit any bizarre behavior.

The flight departed thirty minutes late (because he was late?). The Captain made some odd statements, handed control to the FO and then continued talking in a way that the FO said was not coherent.

The JetBlue update (http://blog.jetblue.com/index.php/2012/03/27/flight-191/) said that it was 3 1/2 hours into the flight when he left the cockpit and the FO called for the off-duty pilot to come forward.

[John Farley]

akaSylvia

Thanks. I did read the Sherrif's report yesterday and as you point out it specifically states the Captain exhibited no bizarre behaviour prior to departure.

My reference to the benefit of hindsight had in mind rather more subtle clues than what might be described as 'bizarre behaviour'. For example how did he react to his lateness and missing the crew brief? Apologetically or otherwise? If the latter I might with hindsight consider that worth considering in the full analysis.

[Murexway]

BOAC: from where I see it, some pilots in that company are probably in the wrong job.In any large company there are people who may be in the wrong job.

[Passenger 389]

Just a lay observation here. A wide range of "herbal" products, diet products, and various nutritional and other "supplements" are sold in the United States. By law, most are exempt from government regulation or oversight. Many products or key ingredients are imported from overseas. When laboratory analysis has been done, it occasionally reveals unexpected and even dangerous ingredients, contaminants, drugs, or potential interactions.

Some substances (whether ingredients or contaminants) can significantly affect a person's mental state, inducing symptoms such as hallucinations, paranoia, disoriented thinking, intense religious experiences, and more.

It can be especially disorienting if the person doesn't realize what is happening to him and why (as opposed to someone who knowingly ingests an hallucinogenic substance).

Until more is known, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the Captain could have ingested some such product, and experienced a bad reaction to it. (Unless there is a categorical ban on pilots taking herbal and other supplements, of which I am unaware).

Even if it did not trigger this incident, perhaps something to keep in the back of your mind if you or a colleague ever experience such a situation.

[paparomeodelta]

I raised a question months ago about what to do if your colleague went nuts while flying and the door being closed. But I really didn´t get very much out of the answers. This question seems even more adequate after this incident.

What would you do?

Once again. My heart bleeds for the poor man...

[akaSylvia]

John: I see what you mean. At first blush, it seems the FO isn't able to name anything specific but I agree, it sure would be useful if there were more subtle signs that we could learn to watch for.

[thepotato232]

Any word on Mr. Dowd's career prior to JetBlue? That name is naggingly familiar.

[SeniorDispatcher]

I read where he had flown a Gulfstream for NetJets, but can't attest to the accuracy of the media's reports..

Looks like he's now out of the hospital...

JetBlue pilot in jail pending hearing | Amarillo Globe-News (http://amarillo.com/news/latest-news/2012-04-02/jetblue-pilot-federal-court-after-release-hospital)

[757_Driver]

ahh, the good old USA "Justice" system

the guy clearly has some serious mental health issues, so they slap him in jail. Bravo.What a backward country.
I never cease to be amazed at the depths to which the US justice system can plunge to. Mind you, a country with one of the highest crime rates on the planet and 10 times the number of people in jail per capita than any other country, clearly has a messed up system.

[slamer.]

'Bomb' meltdown pilot appears in court

Updated 6:47 AM Tuesday Apr 3, 2012


http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/201213/FlightDisruptedCapt_Dani_220x147.jpg (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10796351#)

Emergency workers tend to Clayton Osbon, a JetBlue captain that had a 'medical situation' during a Las Vegas-bound flight from JFK International airport.


A JetBlue Airways captain charged with disrupting a Las Vegas-bound flight after he left the cockpit screaming about religion and terrorists should remain in federal custody without bond, prosecutors have told a judge.
Clayton Osbon smiled at his wife and JetBlue employees who watched his first federal court appearance, but did not speak other than to tell the judge he understood his rights and the charges against him.
Osbon, 49, was not asked to enter a plea. A judge is expected to rule on the bond issue on Thursday local time.
Osbon has remained in Texas since the plane he was piloting last Tuesday was forced to make an emergency landing there following his bizarre unraveling. Passengers wrestled him to the ground after witnesses said he ran through the cabin yelling about Jesus and al-Qaida, and then restrained him with seat belt extenders.
He was taken to an Amarillo hospital for a medical evaluation and remained there for several days. It was not immediately clear where he was being held.

Prosecutors have charged Osbon with interfering with a flight crew. Under federal law, a conviction can bring up to 20 years in prison.
Osbon wore street clothes in the courtroom but his feet were shackled. His attorney, Dean Roper, declined to comment after the hearing.
Osbon's wife, Connye Osbon, released a statement through the airline saying the in-flight outburst "wasn't intentionally violent toward anyone" and asked the media to respect their family's privacy.
Longtime friends and fellow pilots have said they don't recall Clayton Osbon having any previous mental or health problems.
Investigators say Osbon told his co-pilot "things just don't matter" and incoherently rambled about religion shortly after the flight departed from New York. His behavior became more erratic as the flight wore on, prosecutors say, and ended with a tense struggle in the cabin after Osbon abruptly left the cockpit. A flight attendant's ribs were bruised while trying to restrain Osbon, but no one on board was seriously hurt.
-AP

[boofhead]

I know I have a bee in my bonnet about airport security, but someone trying to break into the flight deck, and, according to the FO as it was reported, this chap almost managed it.

The US administration has just announced they are vitually shutting down the armed pilot scheme, and with so few air marshals, there will be little available on board the airplanes to protect them from anybody who is determined to take over the airplane.

The argument is that with locked cockpit doors, and the 100 percent effective airport security in operation, there is no need to maintain the program.

Of course, in this case, the captain might have been the armed pilot so there is no standard answer, but to my mind it highlights the futility of the airport security. There have been a few incidents lately on the airplanes, and none of them were prevented, or could have been prevented, by airport security. If we put all our trust is a program that does not work, has never worked, and can never work, we are all out of our collective minds.

Bravo to the FO in this case, he responded well to the threat, and more importantly, he recognised the threat in time.

[Airbubba]

Any word on Mr. Dowd's career prior to JetBlue? That name is naggingly familiar.

I read where he had flown a Gulfstream for NetJets, but can't attest to the accuracy of the media's reports..

Looks like he's now out of the hospital...

Jason Dowd is the FO, never flew Gulfstreams for NetJets, didn't go to the hospital.

A brief profile of Mr. Dowd is in this article:

JetBlue co-pilot hailed as a hero - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/jetblue-co-pilot-hailed-as-a-hero/2012/03/30/gIQAhdhulS_story.html)

ahh, the good old USA "Justice" system

the guy clearly has some serious mental health issues, so they slap him in jail. Bravo.What a backward country.


Sounds like your green card application was denied.:{

[jackstraw]

"Sounds like your green card application was denied.:{" Huh?

Personally, I think that he makes a very good point.

2247 posts in 11 years...Sounds like someone has a rather fond opinion of himself.

[chuks]

In the U.K. one assumes that he would be released into 'care in the community,' where he would fit right in. Do you suppose that he just picked the wrong country in which to go a bit ga-ga? How would you see this handled in the U.K.?

I assume that once he bounces around a bit inside our American justice system he will be judged 'not guilty by reason of insanity,' and sent off to some secure facility for a while. After all, if he really wanted to do great harm then he could simply have overpowered his FO and then crashed the aircraft. That has happened in the past.

It's really very sad, I think, for such a senior guy to lose it so completely. I hope we get some answers to how this could happen, when the best thing, not that it's really anything but terrible, would be to be told that there was some sort of physical reason for his breakdown.

[bubbers44]

He probably will never fly again but all people have a breaking point. I hope he finds peace in his next profession. He sounds like a great guy that flipped out and can't fly any more.

[Farrell]

He sounds like a great guy that flipped out and can't fly any more.

Who says that he can't fly anymore?

I see a lot of folks on here placing this colleague of ours in a box very close to the nutters who plot and plan to take over an aircraft and do damage.
Even from reading the sensationalist news-crap that has been linked on here, it is easy to work out that this was not the case.

There is nothing to substantiate anything that has been said so far about the reason for this man's actions.
The doctors will decide.

A mental breakdown, maybe.
But it could also be something like a contaminant or a virus, which may not be the career breaker that you have so casually placed on him.
Why knock the poor guy down even further than he already is?

Can you imagine if it was you?

[before landing check list]

ahh, the good old USA "Justice" system

the guy clearly has some serious mental health issues, so they slap him in jail. Bravo.What a backward country.
I never cease to be amazed at the depths to which the US justice system can plunge to. Mind you, a country with one of the highest crime rates on the planet and 10 times the number of people in jail per capita than any other country, clearly has a messed up system.

10 times? Soooooo where do you get your information from? Probably pulled it out the same place your head has been eh? Granted I am not a big fan of it neither (our justice system) however you really should try to temper your outbursts with a dose of reality. Now what do you say we get this thread back on track.

[Bobbsy]

Actually it's about six times the international median rate. The USA has a prison population of about 751 per 100,000 citizens. The median rate for the rest of the world is 125. The UK, for example, is 151. None of this is really relevant in this topic.

Some details here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all

However, I have to say I was another one to be shocked that the pilot in question is facing criminal charges rather than getting medical/mental help.

[SeniorDispatcher]

My mistake, I thought he was asking about the captain...

[Hotel Tango]

Jeez, it's enough to give him a second breakdown. Are they serious? I hope he gets the very best lawyer in the USA.

[aterpster]

The guy was arrested by the FBI because there aren't any FAA police. The FBI took him for a medical evaluation before they charged him. It will take some time before we learn what the conclusion of that evaluation was and why the FBI decided to charge him.

None of us were there so we really don't know the nature of his outburst. Everyone assumes he is suffering from mental illness. Perhaps the FBI determined some other reason for his outburst, thus the arrest. None of us know.

Then, there is the issue if this is a mental illness did it just occur or did the captain know about it and was having it treated on the "QT" so he could avoid reporting on his FAA six month medical application? If that turns out to be the case that is a different felony, that would probably result in a new criminal filing and, if found guilty by a jury, a couple of years of prison time.

If, in fact, the outburst was the result of a previously unknown medical condition that would cause a sudden and severe psychotic outburst, the guy will likely not be brought to trial and, if so, surely not convicted. In fact, if that is the case the charges will probably be dropped. But, there is a lot of evaluation and investigation that first needs to take place. It is not an easy matter to determine whether he was being treated on the QT and thus committing fraud on his 6 month FAA medical application.

[FIGJAM_SEA]

ahh, the good old USA "Justice" system

the guy clearly has some serious mental health issues, so they slap him in jail. Bravo.What a backward country.
I never cease to be amazed at the depths to which the US justice system can plunge to. Mind you, a country with one of the highest crime rates on the planet and 10 times the number of people in jail per capita than any other country, clearly has a messed up system.
While in sad, depressing, socialist Europe people (RIGHTLY) complain all the time about the Justice system being too soft and the police being ineffective when it's needed most...

In the US the number of people in jail per capita is higher because the system works much better and quicker and criminals DO GO to jail and, most importantly, DO STAY there for a good chunk of their conviction.

IMNSHO, the USA are, overall, the greatest country on Earth. By far.

Signed, an Italian who has relatives in Germany and France, who has traveled all over Europe, who has lived in the USA and who has been an expat in every continent but Africa.

[FCeng84]

I have heard that with some airlines / cultures there is a very strong reluctance among flight deck second-in-commands to question, correct, or overrule the first-in-command even if safety is being compromised. I'm glad this first officer took the action that he did.

One part of this story that intrigues me is the first officer arranging for an off duty pilot to join him on the flight deck for the balance of the flight. Is it common practice for the crew up front to be informed of other flight deck crew on board and where they are seated? This seems like a good policy - an extension of prudent resource management in a way.

As for the pilot's treatment through the US medical and justice system, the fact that he was in a hospital for several days prior to his first court appearance suggests to me that an evaluation was made regarding his motivations and his longer term mental state. I sure hope that where ever he is detained or allowed to reside in the short term he continues to receive the best possible medical care. At risk of revealing my bias, I do wonder if he would have been treated differently had his airplane landed in California rather than Texas.

[aterpster]

FCeng84:

At risk of revealing my bias, I do wonder if he would have been treated differently had his airplane landed in California rather than Texas.

I would think the FBI would march to the same orders whether in Texas or California.

[Airbubba]

At risk of revealing my bias, I do wonder if he would have been treated differently had his airplane landed in California rather than Texas.

I think the FBI even operates in California.;)

None of us were there so we really don't know the nature of his outburst. Everyone assumes he is suffering from mental illness. Perhaps the FBI determined some other reason for his outburst, thus the arrest. None of us know.

Absolutely. As we've discussed above, things like meningitus, brain tumors and side effects from drugs and supplements have in the past caused sudden aberrant behavior.

It is not an easy matter to determine whether he was being treated on the QT and thus committing fraud on his 6 month FAA medical application.

And that points out the 'Catch 22' of a pilot seeking help for mental issues. If you don't seek help, things may get worse until you commit an act that can put yourself and others at risk. If you get help and the feds find out, you are probably grounded and perhaps facing criminal charges if you didn't disclose the treatment. Like everything else with the feds, a lot depends on how things are documented, e.g. was it 'counseling' or 'treatment' and was a diagnosis recorded?

In recent years the FAA Aeromedical folks have been cross checking disability payments, armed forces medical discharges and other records to catch folks who claim to be disabled for pay purposes but healthy for flying.

One of the guys who got caught lying on his FAA medical application while drawing Social Security disability pay tried to sue the government for violating his privacy since he is HIV positive. He was unsuccessful:

Supreme Court limits damages in HIV-infected pilot's case (http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/California/News/2012/03_-_March/Supreme_Court_limits_damages_in_HIV-infected_pilot_s_case/)

[gcal]

'and the 100 percent effective airport security in operation'

Sorry if the typing is rubbish but I've just has to pick myself up from the floor....:rolleyes:

[Lost in Saigon]

l wonder about the sobriety of the passengers who flung themselves on

the legal Captain, and instantly flung him to the ground.

Cattle class may have gone too far.

ls it possible to drink and drugs test the fat arsed pikie bast*rds prior

to boarding ?

He was no longer the "legal Captain". The First Officer had assumed command because the Captain was incapacitated. His his training and duty would have given him no other choice. I believe he also made a PA instructing the Cabin Crew and passengers to restrain him.

[MarcK]

I was just reading earlier this this week that polydipsia (excessive water consumption) is not uncommon is patients with schizophrenia. Of course, I have no idea what happened here, but that might be one way the facts could fit together.
Polydipsia, along with polyuria (having to pee a lot) is also a symptom of diabetes. It's possible that the captain had a diabetic episode. Very low blood sugar can cause symptoms that look a lot like schizophrenia. So rather than a mental case, maybe this is just an illness.

[aterpster]

The captain had his first hearing in federal court yesterday. He was in shackles. The government argued that he be held without bail.

[dazdaz1]

Would not the Captain be held in a federal mental institution rather than a general fed/county prison? Totally appalling the way this poor man is being treated by the authorities, his family must be so distraught.

Daz

[deSitter]

Oh come on. Regardless of WHY he did what he did, you can't vaguely threaten a flying airliner when you are its captain, and expect to not have a rough go of it. Petty criminals are treated much worse in our local jails. Particularly the lower albedo ones.

-drl

[SaturnV]

Daz, the nearest Federal Medical Center is in Ft. Worth Texas. However, it houses only female inmates. Possibly the closest Federal facility for males in custody would be at Rochester Minnesota, near the famous Mayo Clinic. But if he were transferred to Minnesota, the Federal courts in that state would not have jurisdiction as the crime(s) Osbon is charged with did not occur in/over Minnesota.

The Federal government very often lodges those in custody, after an arrest and before/during trial, in state or local government jails. Robert Reid, the 'shoebomber' was kept at the Plymouth County jail in Massachusetts before his trial. However, once convicted and sentenced, an individual, with few exceptions, is lodged at a Federal prison. All the necessary psychiatric and medical evaluations can readily be done at these state and local facilities.

[Lyman]

SaturnV

I think Federal Jurisdiction is "Mobile". It carries State to State. The bottom line in today's Law, is the separate Branches of the federal Government are not on the same page.

Our President, whose Department of Justice is the authority in Federally charged crimes, has told the Supreme Court to "Long walk/Short pier". The Appeals Court has stabbed back; Our entire system of Authority is in erm.....flux.

I haven't seen evidence the Government is doing what it can't, only what it 'should not' expressed in settled Law and expectations.

Captain Osbon 'chose' an inopportune time to act as he did. I am also aware of a Drunken Captain who was severely punished for his escapades, to reacquire licensure and a new and respectful reputation in his airline. This too shall pass.

Sometimes one has to wait, to see, to understand, different problems. The FED is in limits, imho. I don't like it; but that is a separate issue?

[gcap]

I hope I'm not alone here, but I'm embarrassed to be a US citizen when I read that the captain was brought in shackles to court.

[deSitter]

You are just now noticing this awful wretched fact? What about all the poor black people who are rousted for the most trivial crimes (e.g. loitering) brought before the judge in jail togs and manacled hand and foot? I guess that is OK by you because they are not airline captains. Yes, it is horrible - you can blame the "justo-tainment" industry (Nancy Grace, Judge Judy and other monsters), right-wing "law and order" types who understand neither law nor order, well, I could go on for hours. The justice system is horribly broken - and who broke it? Look in the mirror. WE did.

-drl

[chuks]

Restraints are used for the protection of both the accused and the cops. It's the same way that the cuffs go on when you get a ride in the cop car.

This guy flipped out once, and he's a big guy, a 250-pounder according to what I read. It's a lot simpler to have him already restrained, compared to having to wrassle him down and hog-tie him, if he loses it under the stress of his circumstances. You could just imagine how people would react if he were to injure someone or be injured himself after an unrestrained outburst similar the one he had on the aircraft.

I used to transport Federal prisoners occasionally in a small aircraft. Those guys were thoroughly restrained, and dosed with a tranquilizer, plus it was two guards to one prisoner. It was nothing personal, believe me!

[rgbrock1]

gcap:

No, you're not alone in feeling embarrassed by the Captain's being brought before a court in shackles. It really is outrageous and cannot be justified.

[2EggOmelette]

Ahh yes, it can be justified. Chucks just told you why. Its a system of protection for all involved. If this chap flipped out at the court house while not restrained and hurt someone, ALL of you who are currently bemoaning the fact that he is in shackles would without doubt decry the justice system for being lax, or unprepared.
You just remember that.
I hope the Captain gets the mental help required and makes a speedy recovery.

[MarkerInbound]

EVERYONE goes before the Federal bench in shackles. Remember Tammy Bakker's mascara running when they brought Jim Bakker into court? As chuks says, it's SOP.

[bubbers44]

Being an airline captain does not exempt you from following customary procedure to deal with violating US laws. Interfering with a crew member does not exempt the captain if he is interfering with the safe operation of an aircraft from getting the same treatment.

I hope he gets the help he needs but he can't expect special treatment because he was the captain that went out of control.

[aterpster]

Official Charging Document:

http://www.taproot.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/OsbonComplaint.pdf

[boofta]

Maybe just maybe
He had an argument with the F/O that caused the F/O to
get so angry that he locked him out of the cockpit, when
he went out to relieve himself.
Then, maybe just maybe, the Captain got so angry
about being locked out that he went berserk.
And, the captain is still berserk about it.
I WOULD BE
There are crazy F/O's out there too folks.
Just because the F/O decided the captain had lost it does'nt
mean its a fact.
An interesting case, which will be a great debating
topic in all areas of industry.
Are all your nuclear power workers stable ?
who makes the call ?

[aterpster]

bootfa:

Maybe just maybe
He had an argument with the F/O that caused the F/O to
get so angry that he locked him out of the cockpit, when
he went out to relieve himself.
Then, maybe just maybe, the Captain got so angry
about being locked out that he went berserk.

I believe the NTSB got control of the DCVR, which is probably a two hour recording, at least.

[ST27]

Looks like Osbon's problem may not be temporary. A judge ordered a psych exam today (Wednesday):

There is reason to believe Osbon "may presently be suffering from a mental disease or defect rendering him mentally incompetent" to understand the case against him and assist in his defense, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a Texas court filing.

Judge orders psychiatric exam for JetBlue pilot - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/04/travel/jetblue-pilot/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

[Machinbird]

Probably a small point, but if Capt Osbon was initially responsible for the aircraft as aircraft commander as it departed, was he ever formally relieved of his duties (other than by being overpowered)? If not, it would be understandable that he would react physically to the unexplained (to him) assault on his person and the usurping of his authority. This would weaken the Federal case against him.

Granted, it appears completely necessary that he needed to be removed from command given his mental state, and it it would have been foolish for the copilot to personally address the Captain under the circumstances in that aircraft to formally relieve him. It is just that the legal case against him may be flawed by these events.

[bubbers44]

On our planet we do what makes sense. The FO did what made sense to protect his passengers and crew.

[SaturnV]

ST27, Osbon had been undergoing psychiatric evaluation at the Northwest Texas Hospital in Amarillo. It would seem the results of those hospital evaluations were sufficient to now transfer him into a Federal (Bureau of Prisons) medical center for a more extensive psychiatric evaluation. This suggests there was not an underlying neurological or physiological condition that suddenly precipitated his behavior, nor was the onset caused by his taking supplements to boost energy, lose weight, enhance performance, etc.

These initial psychiatric evaluations may also indicate he poses a continuing risk of harm to himself and/or others, and thus no release on bond.

A description of psychiatric evaluations done at the Federal medical center at Devens Massachusetts (outside of Boston) can be found here.

http://www.bop.gov/jobs/students/cpdipdev2.pdf

Look for sections on forensic evaluation.

[aterpster]

Machinbird:

Probably a small point, but ifCapt Osbon was initially responsible for the aircraft as aircraft commander asit departed, was he ever formally relieved of his duties (other than by beingoverpowered)? If not, it would be understandable that he would react physicallyto the unexplained (to him) assault on his person and the usurping of hisauthority. This would weaken the Federal case against him.

Granted, it appears completely necessary that he needed to be removed fromcommand given his mental state, and it it would have been foolish for thecopilot to personally address the Captain under the circumstances in thataircraft to formally relieve him. It is just that the legal case against himmay be flawed by these events.

Read the link I posted to the chargingdocument and affidavit supporting the charging. The F/O had no choice other than to do what he did. An incapacitated PIC can no longer act as PIC.

[Machinbird]

Aterpster
Read the link I posted to the charging document and affidavit supporting the charging. The F/O had no choice other than to do what he did. An incapacitated PIC can no longer act as PIC.Please understand, I have no disagreement with the F/O's actions. Just that the government's legal case may be flawed, as in not enforceable.

Maritime law no doubt has set applicable legal precedents.

[aterpster]

"An incapacitated PIC can no longer act as PIC."

[rgbrock1]

SaturnV wrote:

ST27, Osbon had been undergoing psychiatric evaluation at the Northwest Texas Hospital in Amarillo. It would seem the results of those hospital evaluations were sufficient to now transfer him into a Federal (Bureau of Prisons) medical center for a more extensive psychiatric evaluation. This suggests there was not an underlying neurological or physiological condition that suddenly precipitated his behavior

Undergoing psychiatric evaluation in no way rules out underlying neurological or physiological conditions. Neurological issues can only be identified by a qualified professional which, in this case, would be a Neurologist. A psychiatrist cannot diagnose a neurological condition but can refer the patient to a neurologist for further evaluation.

My sister went from a perfectly healthy young woman to someone exhibiting very strange, erratic and bizarre behaviors.
Some not unlike those shown by Captain Osbon.
She was initially referred to the family doctor, then a psychiatrist and then, finally, a neurologist.

Her behavior was attributed to a brain tumor which had been growing in her head. A cancerous one.

She left this physical plane at the age of 29 years.

[Machinbird]

"An incapacitated PIC can no longer act as PIC."Yes, of course, but was it communicated to the original PIC that he was incapacitated?
How does he know he should stop trying to act as PIC? It is not obvious that he should have recognized he was incapacitated.

Maybe I am being too simplistic, but violation of law requires intent or neglect, doesn't it? Which would apply?

[chuks]

You have a conundrum there: How do you explain something to someone who may be unable to understand your explanation? That's like trying to explain to a drunk that he's too drunk to drive, when you get back, 'No, no, I'm fine. Just help me stand up...' All you can do is to take over, take away the keys, or in this case, lock the Captain out of the cockpit.

It's not as if there's some clear line. Let's hope we don't get some situation where the next FO locks out his Captain 'because he looked at me funny.'

You seem to see some ceremony where the Captain has to be read the Riot Act, stripped of his epaulettes and Ray-Bans and then drummed off the flight deck. Events move too fast for that. We train for 'subtle incapacitation,' for instance, when a crew member is fine one minute and out of it the next. For instance, you line up for takeoff, get cleared to depart, everything normal, but then you don't get the call for '80 knots.' The PNF is sat there, eyes open, looking fine, except for not reacting. Or perhaps it's the PF, who never rotates at 'Vr.' That is not the time to have a conversation such as, 'Are you feeling okay over there? Is there something you need to talk about?' You are about to merge with the scenery unless the PNF suddenly transforms himself into the PF, 'with the speed of a thousand startled gazelles.'

As far as I know, nobody trains for the PIC going ga-ga, as here. The FO was faced with a situation that is not in the book, when he seems to have done exactly the right thing. Imagine if he had somehow ended up locked out, with his Captain now alone on the flight deck. 'Open the pod bay doors, HAL.'

Of course there are already questions about why, when the Captain showed up late for the crew briefing, nobody realized that there was something wrong with him. Well, we operate on the basic assumption that people are 'normal,' ignoring slight oddities as just that. We don't think that someone showing up late means that they are going to flip out a few hours later at the controls of an airliner.

I am sure we will be told much more about that as the facts come out. Look forward to a few 'talking heads' telling us that we need a new system to ensure mental health, in the same way that we now test for drugs such as alcohol.

One consequence may be the end of that program where pilots tote guns in the cockpit, for fairly obvious reasons.

[aterpster]

One consequence may be the end of that program where pilots tote guns in the cockpit, for fairly obvious reasons.

Neither the Bush nor Obama administrations ever wanted that program. Obama cut funding to the program before this incident.

Stay tuned.

[paparomeodelta]

I´d love some reactions to this hypothetical but valid question. This is what could have happened if not FO on this flight had succeeded in getting the captain out of the cockpit and locked the door.

What do you do? Door to cabin is closed. Your colleague starts messing with the controls in a dangerous way and is obviously losing it very, very rapidly? Putting plane and passengers at an obvious risc. Flying all over the place. He is "incomunicado"!

Crash axe?

[chuks]

It was a while ago, but there was an ATR crash in Morocco when the male Captain did an intentional CFIT with the female FO unable to overpower him. The CVR told the tale.

There was that Egyptair crash out of New York and a crash in the far East also where there was fairly convincing evidence that the PF, alone in the cockpit at first at least, caused the crash.

There was a PSA BAE 146 crash where a cockpit intruder shot the crew and crashed the aircraft, and a FedEx near-crash where an intruder attacked and severely wounded the crew who managed to make a safe landing.

If you add a gun already in the cockpit to the mix it can be seen that you are increasing the level of threat that is already present.

All you have to do is to think about what we already know about the reaction time. You need to perceive the problem, come up with a reaction to the problem, and then react to the problem, when all of this can take five seconds or so, a very long time. If the person at the controls, the PF, were to do something completely unexpected, the PNF might not have enough time to understand the new, completely unforeseen, circumstances and then come up with an appropriate solution.

In this case the Captain went a bit funny in the head at cruise altitude. You don't want to think about what might have happened if he had saved that up for a critical phase of flight, or quietly waited for the FO to step out for a break, or pulled out his TSA-approved pistol and told him that Jesus was now guiding the flight. These are all examples of 'thinking the unthinkable,' by definition. In the same way, up until 9/11 the idea of hijackers who were suicidal was also unthinkable. Now we think about that, and we are going to have to think about this.

We are again moving into the realm of the hypothetical from the realm of the unthinkable. Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were like this; it was unthinkable that a gang of screw-ups could be running a nuclear power plant so that it was not really held to be hypothetical.

There was a movie by Jim Jarmusch titled Down by Law, where one of the characters spoke of his Italian mother killing a rabbit to cook it and eat it, how she would hold the bunny stroking its fur, so nice, and then with one sharp blow she would kill it! The scene worked because of the juxtaposition of the loving mother being nice to the nice furry bunny, all nicey-nicey, but then Whack! Well, 'true to life,' I guess you could call that scene. So now we have the senior Captain, a check airman, flipping out. Two weeks ago it was a sick fantasy, but now it's true to life. We are just waiting to find out 'Why?'

[bubbers44]

About 40 years ago I took a biker type up in a cessna 150 for a scenic flight over the mountains and he went nuts grabbing the controls and screaming in a rage. He was too big to overpower so had to calm him down so he would let me land the airplane. I was looking for a crash axe that day but had nothing to fight him with.

My only chance was a slim one of rolling inverted, undoing his seat belt and try to kick him out of the plane. Thank God I finally calmed him down so he didn't grab the controls again as he did on my first attempt to land.

[PukinDog]

Machinbird
Yes, of course, but was it communicated to the original PIC that he was
incapacitated? How does he know he should stop trying to act as PIC? It is
not obvious that he should have recognized he was incapacitated.

Maybe I am being too simplistic, but violation of law requires intent or neglect, doesn't it? Which would apply?

Some here are acting as if the Captain's appearance in Court was a sentencing. It wasn't. It's the formal first step to get the procedural ball rolling on the charges, and that process includes the psych and medical evals. If it's determined that his actions were a medical/psych issue he had no control over and was unaware of his actions, I rather doubt the charges will remain.

As someone has mentioned, it can't be ruled out that the Captain knew he had a disqualifying medical or psychological condition and didn't disclose it as he must during his twice-yearly FAA medicals, or was self-medicating with something not approved. This in itself would constitute a violation of Federal Law and charges would most likely be added to the existing ones if found to be the case. In that situation (where his onboard meltdown was the manifestation of non-diclosure/self-medicating) then you could indeed have scenario where the Captain had a medical issue, didn't know at the time (onboard) what he was doing was wrong, and yet would still be responsible.

In fact, if the investigation shows he was hiding a problem that caused this incident, you can probably expect he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent as an example since much of the medical certification is based on self-disclosure and trust, and being an ATP engaged in common carriage, would most likely be held to the highest standard. You just can't have your airline pilots flying paying pax around out there while hiding disqualifying psychological and/or medical problems.

Those saying "He was obviously sick and out of sorts. This is a medical issue. I can't believe they would charge him, what a lousy system. Shackles? On a pilot? Horrible!" are really just looking for something to be indignant about and focusing on the fact he's a pilot, believing that is grounds enough to set aside process or ignore SOP that goes along with it. I'd suggest taking a breath and let the process take its course.

[sevenstrokeroll]

nutty times

some may recall a united 737 captain many years ago, so long ago they had a second officer on the 737(no lie). anyway, he was making sixty degree banks and other odd things.

the other two pilots got everything down in one piece and it turned out the guy had a brain tumor...and it was subtle incapacitation.

this of course was less subtle.

going back to plato's republic, a chair is anot a chair if you can't sit in it...an ear tht does not hear is not an ear, and a captain who doesn't take care of everyone else ship included is not a captain.

[chuks]

I used to fly to Bimini, the Bahamas fairly often. One morning, instead of the usual abandoned dope-runner aircraft, there was a shiny-new Piper Tomahawk sat just off the runway in the vines off to the right there. It looked just fine except for being sagged down on the right wing.

It seems that a German tourist pilot from Florida had sweet-talked a young, female CFI into a hop over to Bimini, even though that was not on the operator's insurance. He was PF and on short finals he got it badly wrong but would not let the CFI take control, so that they ended up tearing off the right-hand main gear leg on touchdown, when the machine ended up out there in the weeds.

Next, another doper aircraft landed, a few nights later, and blew the Tomahawk over on its back with its propwash.

That one was mostly a sad joke, but airline flying is serious stuff. I am sure we will all be watching to see what the reports say about why this happened.

[Shell Management]

It really is time for regular tough psychiatric evaluations as a remedial action.

Its also time to remove firearms from the cockpit.

[boofhead]

Lets see the logic in this: 7 out of 10 weapons get past TSA screening (from their own testing. Who knows how many other weapons get through?). In the US, it is entirely possible that those weapons include guns.
So your answer is to remove the guns from the pilots.

There is a term for this irrational fear of inanimate objects. Maybe people who have dangerous phobias should be removed from responsible positions on airplanes?

Hoplophobia (from the Greek ὅπλον - hoplon, meaning amongst others "arms" and φόβος - phobos, "fear" is defined as the "fear of weapons" and as the "fear of armed citizens"

Firearms authority and writer Colonel Jeff Cooper coined the word in 1962 to describe a "mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons." Although not a mental health professional, Cooper employed the term as an alternative to slang terms, stating: "We read of 'gun grabbers' and 'anti-gun nuts' but these slang terms do not [explain this behavior]." Cooper attributed this behavior to an irrational fear of firearms and other forms of weaponry. He stated that "the most common manifestation of hoplophobia is the idea that instruments possess a will of their own, apart from that of their user." Writing in an opinion piece, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review columnist Dimitri Vassilaros asserted that the term was intended by Cooper as tongue-in-cheek to mock those who think guns have free will.[
The meaning and usage ascribed by Cooper falls outside of the medical definitions of true specific phobias. For example, specific phobias require that the person be aware and acknowledge that their fear is irrational, and usually causes some kind of functional impairment. True medical phobias of firearms and other weapons can exist, but are unusual.

I don't know about the "unusual" characterization; there seem to plenty of otherwise intelligent people posting here who are so afflicted. I guess it is necessary for them to acknowledge that their belief in the ability of guns to act without human intervention before it can be classified as a true phobia, but believing that guns corrode a person's ability to think rationally is close to the same thing.

[sevenstrokeroll]

well boys and girls....did you know that at one time all airline pilots in the USA carried a gun, rod, heater, revolver, horse pistol? Yup...because they were sworn to defend the US Mail, which the airliners carried.

Now, this was quite awhile ago...maybe as late as the DC3 and DC4 heyday.

You can even see it mentioned by E.K. Gann in "Fate is the Hunter".

Look, we had a guy go nuts...medical? nutritional supplement? but it worked out


Some comments seem less than realistic...the only SURE way to prevent this from happening again is to ground all planes.

Let's let things run their course....

I would love to know the procedures for reporting a less than optimal pilot at
JETBLUE. Can you select pilots to NOT fly with? (as a copilot)

hmmmmm

[bubbers44]

Having guns in the cockpit is good. Most pilots know how to handle guns. It is the last defense and should stay as it is. One pilot should not destroy this way of protecting passengers. He didn't have one and has nothing to do with pilots defending their cockpit. I never carried a gun because I didn't want to but I think not letting the bad guys know what pilots are armed and which aren't is good. Let them get a piece of lead in their chest. Who cares?

[Heathrow Harry]

Ahhhh A "well regulated militia" in the plane eh?

I suppose if I'm a passenger I should therefore be able to bring along an AK-47 just in case other passengers or the crew go crazy?

[Bill Harris]

The latest news on this incident:

SAN ANTONIO (Reuters) - A grand jury indicted a JetBlue pilot and charged him with interference with a flight crew following a mid-air meltdown that included screaming and pounding on the cockpit door, forcing a transcontinental flight to make an emergency landing in Texas last month, court documents show.

Unruly JetBlue pilot charged with interference with flight - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/jetblue-pilot-indicted-interference-flight-crew-173812001.html)

[bubbers44]

He will get his day in court. Let it happen. I don't think you can convict him of anything yet.

[BobnSpike]

Oooooh, yes they can. The official verdict will be ignored by the Court of PPRuNe.

Just watch.

[bubbers44]

BS, you are probably right. I get kicked off from time to time but usually because I don't like Air Bus so just accept it as bias from the east side.

[PukinDog]

I don't know about the "unusual" characterization; there seem to plenty of otherwise intelligent people posting here who are so afflicted. I guess it is necessary for them to acknowledge that their belief in the ability of guns to act without human intervention before it can be classified as a true phobia, but believing that guns corrode a person's ability to think rationally is close to the same thing.


It's more of a cultural thing here, cemented into the psyche from childhood over a millenia's worth of generations that the "peasantry" or "commoners" shant possess weaponry that would allow them to poach the king's deer or revolt against their "rightful" overlords. It trancends mere brainwashing. With that foundation, it's morphed into today's "Why, they're simply too dangerous. I can defend myself with a niblick if it comes to that..and so should everyone else be forced to". The notion that it's an inherent Right...well, that philosophy just can't be fathomed let alone embraced by anyone still clinging to dusty, old notions like Monarchy and Aristocracy by birthright and that government is something you kneel before seeking favor while it doles out conditions for one's existence.. That's where all the tut-tutting and finger-wagging comes from; if they can't have one ( the Right and/or the weapon), then neither should you.

That's why, to us, it walks like a phobia and talks like a phobia.

[aterpster]

Oooooh, yes they can. The official verdict will be ignored by the Court of PPRuNe.

Just watch.

I believe you've broken the code. :)

In addition to the present grand jury indictment you can bet there are several federal law enforcement officers working to determine whether there is probable cause to also file for failure to report treatment and medication for a medical condition.

[bubbers44]

I think if every pilot who has conveniently forgot he didn't fill out his medical form every 6 months 100% correctly and got busted we would lose over 20% of our airline pilots.

[before landing check list]

That is exactly true. I think the key word here is forgot, if you know what I mean.

[Airbubba]

That is exactly true. I think the key word here is forgot, if you know what I mean.

Yep, my AME has given me that advice. Don't bore the feds with detail unless you like writing letters to Oklahoma City.:uhoh:

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations.:ok:

[Airbubba]

JetBlue pilot to use insanity defense

By Aaron Cooper, CNN

updated 6:19 PM EDT, Wed April 18, 2012

(CNN) -- Clayton Osbon, the JetBlue pilot who was restrained by passengers after he left the cockpit and acted erratically during a flight last month, will use an insanity defense, according to court documents filed Wednesday by his attorney Dean Roper.

CNN contacted Roper's office, but was told the attorney was unavailable and would not be commenting...


More here: JetBlue pilot to use insanity defense - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/18/travel/jetblue-pilot/index.html)

Earlier on this thread I observed:

It might not even go to a federal grand jury if the U.S. Attorney decides not to proceed with the indictment.

Well, as reported above, it did go to a grand jury and Captain Osborn was charged with one felony count of interference with flight crew (Violation of 49 USC § 46504) in an indictment filed last week.:eek:

Some discussion of jurisdiction and venue on this charge is here:

USAM 9-63.000 Protection of Public Order (http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/63mcrm.htm#9-63.110)

Here is a cite for the law itself:

49 USC § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants | LII / Legal Information Institute (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/46504)

[aterpster]

I read this morning that Captain Osborn intends to plead not guity by reason of insanity. That plea seldom works, especially in federal court. But, it is the only hope that the defense has of presenting any sort of case to the jury. If the jury buys the plea then the feds will lock him up in a mental hospital until such time that he can prove himself sane.

[Passenger 389]

JetBlue passengers sue airline over pilot scare

By FRANK ELTMAN
Associated Press

GARDEN CITY, N.Y. (AP) -- Ten passengers filed a lawsuit Wednesday against JetBlue Airways, claiming they feared for their lives when a pilot had to be physically restrained after running through the cabin yelling about Jesus and al-Qaida during a New York-to-Las Vegas flight in March.

The lawsuit, filed in state Supreme Court in Queens, claims the airline was "grossly negligent" in allowing Capt. Clayton Osbon to fly.


The lawsuit claims JetBlue knew or should have known he was unfit to be entrusted with the aircraft as pilot.

The 10 plaintiffs, all from the metropolitan New York area, are seeking unspecified damages for emotional distress.

[heli-cal]

I don't doubt that the entire incident was extremely distressing for the passengers concerned.

Whether or not the airline could have foreseen the behavior of the Captain is another matter.

[bubbers44]

The Lawyers are making a living off this. They are just looking at their accounts receivable. End of subject.

[Loose rivets]

This is beginning to really annoy me. And it takes a lot to make me serious. But this bloke became ILL. He showed symptoms of being ill. If these symptoms distress anyone, FFS, suck it up, that's what the symptoms do.


If he'd had a gall bladder go bad on him, he may well have been lying on the floor screaming. The poor darlings in the back might have had more sympathy for straightforward pain, but it would be just another organ misbehaving - in the literal sense. Heart attack. Well all know those symptoms . . . don't we? Poor chap. Dickie heart. To be pitied.

When the brain plays up - the most complex organ in the body, by many orders of magnitude - it causes bizarre symptoms, and great distress to the sufferer and to those around him/her. It just has to be coped with by the hopefully, competent crew. Job done - at least for those not burdened in the long term.

And as for the people running to lawyers. Get a grip. But you won't, will you? Not when there's $$$$$$$$$ signs on the horizon.

Not a thought for the poor sod who is, or was, ILL.

[sunburst]

Absolutely.

I thought mental illness was being less stigmatised (I'm a sufferer too), but apparantly not.

[Mark in CA]

All I can say is it's a good thing it wasn't a flight from California, lawsuit capital of the world. But as with most things of this sort, for the airline it's a matter of whether it's cheaper to settle or litigate.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I'm sure jetblue will lose this court case...they should settle right now and get it out of the headlines.

anyone remember when the sister of a famous film maker sued American for turbulence and got over 2 million dollars? (spielberg was film maker in question). DC10 near Detroit hit T storm, dropped and people screamed...she won pretty fast.

those of us who have been around the block have seen some pretty wacky guys out there. some of us have actually gone to chief pilots and said something like: are you sure so and so is OK? Or : why does so and so like to cancel IFR? (at a big airline...yup).


But nothing is done...why? Sometimes UNIONS will spend a fortune defending a guy who isn't very good, but is smart enought to threaten to sue the union.

OF course jetblue pilots don't have a union.

With all the video, I think this court case will be open and shut...especially if tried in the court of public opinion first.

Funny how jet blue has high marks for customer service, low marks for pilots and USAIR has high marks for pilots (sully) and low marks for customer service.
I'll fly USAIR before jetblue anyday.

[mercurydancer]

Yes of course Osborn was ill. The lawyers are no doubt circling. He did put the flight in danger.

However, if there is a crew member with a health condition, be it mental or physical, which could endanger the flight, and that this health condition would be reasonably foreseeable to the company as having the potential to endanger the flight then the lawyers have won.

Its quite irrelevant whether the illness is mental or otherwise.

[aterpster]

Loose rivits:

When the brain plays up - the most complex organ in the body, by many orders of magnitude - it causes bizarre symptoms, and great distress to the sufferer and to those around him/her. It just has to be coped with by the hopefully, competent crew. Job done - at least for those not burdened in the long term.

What we don't know but will in the future is whether he had prior knowledge of his mental condition and had not reported it on his 6-month FAA medical.

[stepwilk]

Jeezo, can we at least get his name right? It's OSBON, not Osborn.

[de facto]

Jeezo, can we at least get his name right? It's OSBON, not Osborn.
Some are watching too much telly:p

[Loose rivets]

What we don't know but will in the future is whether he had prior knowledge of his mental condition and had not reported it on his 6-month FAA medical.


Quite so.









.

[deepknight]

And now the American curse of vexatious litigation has arrived in the UK, with all those ads on TV that go "too stupid to look where you're going? Tripped? You could be due compensation! Call us - we're Shysters-for-You...!" A class action for millions because some bunch of self-agrandising ego-maniacs got a bit upset after a fellow human being clearly found himself in a place he couldn't cope with...? Tell them to read the :mad: newspapers and ask themselved if getting frightened on an aircraft matches getting shelled by your own government in Syria. There again, maybe they've got the right idea. Maybe, when I look in the hotel mirror after a Cancun bullet, I should think about sueing Pilkington Glass who make the mirror, because what I see scares the crap of me, I can tell you.

[rgbrock1]

A few minutes ago a U.S. District judge in Texas ruled that Mr. Osbon is mentally competent to stand trial.

Although the judge ordered the mental evaluation results sealed, she said the results of that evaluation point to the pilot's ability to "aid in his defense" during trial.

Although not a mental health professional myself, I find this ruling to be ludicrous. Perhaps Mr. Osbon is mentally competent now, and was during the evaluation. He certainly was anything but that during the incident back in March.

[aterpster]

I don't have your confidence to second-guess a federal judge.

[Passenger 389]

Being generally familiar with criminal procedure in federal court, I respectfully note that:

1. Osbon's attorney and the prosecutor reportedly entered into a stipulation that Osbon "is not now suffering from a mental disease or defect which would interfere with his ability to meet the legal criteria of competency to stand trial." Osbon agreed to that stipulation in open court.

2. One key word in that stipulation is "now." Being competent to stand trial now is a different question than whether Osbon was competent at the time of the incident. While in custody, he may have been treated with medication or perhaps ceased ingesting something (such as a nutritional supplement) that triggered his symptoms.

[BobM2]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but Osbon's father's death in a light airplane crash 17 yrs ago occured under very strange circumstances. I can't imagine how any sane person could burn all the fuel from one wing in a Beech Baron & then crash from fuel exhaustion with full tanks in the other wing. It seems totally irrational, but here is the NTSB report:

Untitled Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001207X03335&ntsbno=MIA95FA107&akey=1)

[Loose rivets]

He did put the flight in danger.


So did Captain Keys. Papa India's crash was such that people were right on the cusp of survival* Would it have been right for that skipper to be prosecuted had he survived? He was ill, and furthermore, his physical condition should well have set warning bells off - perhaps years before the crash.



*one of the officers attending the crash told me years later that rubbernecking traffic may well have stopped the emergency services saving lives.

[bubbers44]

The FO did everything right. He was able to keep the crazed captain out of the cockpit and safely land the aircraft. Hope the captain is getting the help he needs. We rarely hear about these kind of events so are not trained for it so have to figure out how to deal with it on our own.

[merlinxx]

Loose, you forgot to mention all the union hassles that were going on within BEA at Hounslow Bus Garage at the time. The sledging that was going on in briefing as witnessed by the duty CDOs & briefing officers etc.

[Loose rivets]

Indeed. In this day and age, the entire outfit would be defending a slew of lawsuits.

[aterpster]

bubbers44:

The FO did everything right. He was able to keep the crazed captain out of the cockpit and safely land the aircraft. Hope the captain is getting the help he needs. We rarely hear about these kind of events so are not trained for it so have to figure out how to deal with it on our own.

The FO wonderfully rose to the occasion. He must have been quite diplomatic in his choice of words and reactions to the long conversation he had with the captain before he (the FO) was able to effect his clever plan.

Keep in mind they had been aloft some 3 hours or so. Had the FO departed to go to the john, it could have been all over. Or, had he agitated the captain it could have been all over. The FO appears to be a genuine hero.

As to the captain I am sure he is getting medical care. The question remains for all of us who are not in the loop on this case: Was this the first psychotic event for the captain or was there prior knowledge of it? Everyone deserves an answer to that question once the captain's legal rights have been fulfilled.

[bubbers44]

Aterpster, he has been legally been declared sane to stand trial so we will hear his side of the story. I know he will never fly again but hope he can regain his dignity doing what he did. It seems unlikely but we will see.

The FO did everything right so prevented a possible mishap. Having someone to help him was good but he would have been fine landing single pilot. That is why we have two pilots in airliners. Hopefully that will never change.

[mickjoebill]

Are mechanisms in place that would ban him ever flying as a passenger?



Mickjoebill