ITP rating, what is it?

[747 forever]

Hello everyone,
I was speaking to a friend of mine who has been accepted into the KLM flight academy and he was telling me how it works. He was accepted as a second officer and told me he is going to get to fly the md-11. I said it must be an honor having a go on those rare birds but he told me that a second officer can fly than more than one type of plane depending on the routes and then mentioned something about the ITP ratings for a plane saying if you have the rating you can fly the plane. What is an ITP rating and how does it work? Im keen as its most likely I would start off as a second officer at major airlines.
Cheers guys

[DBate]

I don't know what your friend means with an ITP rating, but as far as I know second officers on the long range fleets (i.e. fresh from the academy) work as cruise relief pilots for the first years at KLM. They don't do any takeoffs and landings on the plane, but sit at the controls during cruise flight while one of the other pilots is resting.

I have never heard that they get several ratings and have only met guys flying a single type (i.e. either MD11, B747, B777 or A330). But I am always standing by to be corrected ;).

[747 forever]

Thanks for the reply :D
so do you not need a rating to be a relief pilot? What are the requirements for being a relief pilot? Lastly how long do you stay as a relief pilot until you can become second officer of the plane?

[DBate]

I really can't tell you how the second officers/relief pilots are exactly handled at KLM since I am not flying for them.

In my airline relief pilots have a complete typerating with the restriction of not being allowed to perform takeoffs and landings. They are allowed to occupy the right seat above 20.000'. I guess it is similar in other airlines.

As for the requirements... I guess that depends on the company. At our outfit most of the relief pilots are former Flight Engineers which - when the last aircraft requiring a FE left the company - where either too old or did not want to become a FO, or they did not pass the selection process for a FO position (they had to do the same selection as required for someone trying to get to the academy or for Ready Entry Pilots).

Some airlines, e.g. KLM or (as far as I know) Cathay have Second Officer programms in which the SO flys as relief pilot for the first couple of years. As for the details about that, you'd better be off asking someone flying there - for example your friend.

[747 forever]

Thanks for yet anther reply. You need full type ratings then at your airline? Wow, seems like a bit for a relief pilot. By the way what do you mean by occupytue right seat after 20.000? But I think the SO is a better way of getting into an airline, and gets you plenty of hours.

[Intruder]

I never heard of an ITP rating. What is it?

Whether you call it a relief pilot, SO, or restricted FO, the job is likely the same: sit in the seat and monitor the gauges while in level cruise. You might get a "big event" and do an altitude change or route modification via the FMS and autopilot. You will get NO manual handling of the controls, and NO takeoffs or landings. You may get "plenty of hours," but they will be relatively useless as flying experience.

In the worst case scenario, you may get yourself into a critical situation like those poor sods on AF447, and be unable to figure out how to get out of it.

TRAINING and CERTIFICATION differences may determine when and how you progress from a low-paying RP/SO job to a higher-paying FO position, or if you ever get to try for a Captain position. Without PILOT IN COMMAND time, you can't an ATPL. Without an ATPL, you won't get to the Captain's seat, and in many [US] airlines you won't even get an FO position. The US doesn't recognize the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot License), and there is an uncertain (at best) upgrade path from the MPL in those countries that accept it.

[747 forever]

I realize that its not much use (except for talking to atc) How long does it take to work from a relief pilot to the right seat? You can become and SO at a really young age so it just makes me wonder

[Intruder]

In the US you can become an FO at 18, though that will change to 23 when an ATP is required. We had a 747 FO at age 26.

Many airlines don't even designate SO's -- they only hire those pilots that qualify as FO's. Many of them require an ATP already for FO's as well.

I don't know what the time progression is at other airlines.

I still want to know what an ITP is...

[747 forever]

But when you apply to the cadet programmes (BA cadet, Virgin, Lufthansa, KLM etc) don`t you usually start off as an SO because all the seniors at the airlines pick the types they want? And I heard from someone its the long hauls that are usually left behind

EDIT- here is something for you to read to kind of see the difference between the US and Europe, Second Officer? Wich Airlines Have Them? — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/1326385/)

[Denti]

There is no SO at lufthansa, every cadet starts out as a normal FO on either the airbus A320 family, 737 classic or as new entry type on the embraer 190 series (flying for lufthansa cityline then). After around 4 to 6 years one is eligible to change onto a longrange type or change company to lufthansa cargo (MD11). After a few years they will have the chance to become a senior FO with cruise captain qualification and finally they will at some point upgrade to the left seat on a shortrange type (currently A320, 737, Embraer) where they will be blocked for around 6 years before they can change back onto longrange. That way cadets will earn real hours and landings on the shorthaul fleet which means a large number of sectors in a short time (especially flying for german wings).

Other airlines do use SOs, however those hours are virtually useless as no actual aircraft handling is done, especially no landings and take offs, it is just a rather extended route experience program.

[747 forever]

excuse me for not knowing that Lufthansa don`t use SO. Thanks for the reply, so it pretty much varies by airline. Well it seems more fun being on the long hauls (more exotic destinations around the world to visit) and it only takes a couple of years to work into the left seat ;)

[Denti]

Captaincy or upgrade is decided by seniority in legacy airlines. Doesn't matter if you start as seatwarmer without any required manual handling skills on a longhaul jet or as fully qualified pilot on a shorthaul aircraft. Expect usually around 12 to 16 years in big airlines, except in times of rapid growth where it can be as short as 5 years. However airlines which grow that fast and need many longhaul captains require usually a lot of prior experience in jets which translates roughly into the same timeframe.

[747 forever]

At BA you need to be at least 18 and for joining as a long haul SO you need 2000 hours

[747 forever]

Incorrect, they do

[747 forever]

Trust me mate, they do. Can you explain the 747-400 pilots who are 24 years old?

[Denti]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Spectactors Balcony? It does strike me as unlikely that the OP is a professional pilot or involved in professional aviation work.

[Intruder]

He's just another wannabe that thinks he knows more than he does...

[747 forever]

heyhey that might be my future carear move ;) but yet again who can go to uni and fly at the same time?

[747 forever]

Well Ill take that as a compliment ;)

[747 forever]

Whats it like in the US? Ive seen so many young European 747/777/A380/A340 pilots around in Europe but what about the US? Do they have young long haul pilots?

[Intruder]

Yes. Most of them are younger than me.

[747 forever]

wow, really? Ive heard that its different there. They start off in regional jets and slowly work up from there compared to Europe where you can hope on the big boys much quicker

[Intruder]

Ah, c'mon... My first airline job was in a 744.

Of course, that was after 20 years of Navy flying...

[747 forever]

exactly! Thats what I thought!

[747 forever]

but today is not when Im getting a job. its 10 years so thats a BIG difference