P-A-T technique

[shumway76]

I have been reading a few CAA UK books on flight trainnig, & found they use the P-A-T technique for climb / descends (power, attitude, trim), and A-P-T.

Those days I was taught the SHoT technique (probably RAF syllabus) - Select (power & attitude) - Hold - Trim.

I was wondering, what happened to the SHoT technique? Looks like it's replaced by P-A-T?

[foxmoth]

I actually use both, SHoT does not tell you which order to do things, PAT tells you to do Power first then attitude, and APT tells you when levelling from a climb to select attitude then WAIT with power, just using SHoT, trainees tend to Select attitude AND power without waiting for speed to build.

[Pilot DAR]

Wasn't PAT SHoT?

Pardon my silliness, but is it really necessary to disect flying an airplane to this level of micro instruction? Aren't pilots taught to fly the plane (rather than it flying them) and then triming out the control forces? Pilots should be multi tasking at least some of the time, and once familiar with the plane, anticipating some things, like a half a turn of the trim wheel at certain times.

With all these acronyms (and I have complained about that before here) the poor pilot spends more time trying to remember the acronyms, and how and when to apply them, and forgets to fly the plane!

When I write Flight Manual Supplements, I write checklists as required, which I expect to be used by the pilot, at the appropriate phase of flight, I avoid acronyms as much as I possibly can!

[mad_jock]

DAR its just an intial learning promt they don't fly round doing it all the time.

PAT the CAT you daft ****. Was one I used to use with some which made them smile.

power attitude trim - check attitude trim.

Once they were doing it properly it was never mentioned again.

[foxmoth]

I do a lot of advanced teaching and it is amazing the number of pilots who do not use the correct techniques for climb/descent entry and level, most common is that they get to TOC, level off and immediately set cruise power, with the result that the aircraft then takes an age to get to cruise speed and they also spend ages trying to trim it out, the acronyms might be seen by some as needless, but for most students, correctly applied, they WORK.:ok:

[mad_jock]

as fox points out PAT the CAT isn't particularly good to use once you get past training aircraft but gets them thinking along the right lines.

[Pilot DAR]

And "TOC" is "trim overspeed cruise"?

You have to remember that the Queen stopped into Canada a few times, smiled and waved, said: "Canadians, dis is how youse are to talk good....", waved again, and left. So, we don't get the constant training in refined use of English, or an understanding of all of the acronyms, as those in the UK. We just muddle along in an illiterate condition, and go flying without reading anything!

[foxmoth]

TOC = Top of Climb, an acronym that most pilots who have been in aviation for any length of time will be familiar with.:}

[Pilot DAR]

Okay. I can usually recognize the top of the climb... When I've been at altitude for a while, I know it must have happened a while back. I just never thought there was an acronym for it!

I suspect that there might be a bit more formality and organization to piloting, either now, or on the left side of the Atlantic, I'm not sure which. My flying in the UK is limited to only a ferry back in 1986, and a delightful flight last spring with a PPRuNer, but that was very relaxed.

Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's. I'll keep reading, maybe I'll learn something!

But, I still would like PPRuNe to provide an acronym list for out of towners!

[foxmoth]

Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's.

Well I learnt in '73 and there were plenty of TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) around then, possibly more around with ex military which there tends to be a lot of in the UK.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Okay. I can usually recognize the top of the climb... When I've been at altitude for a while, I know it must have happened a while back. I just never thought there was an acronym for it!

I suspect that there might be a bit more formality and organization to piloting, either now, or on the left side of the Atlantic, I'm not sure which. My flying in the UK is limited to only a ferry back in 1986, and a delightful flight last spring with a PPRuNer, but that was very relaxed.

Perhaps "new" flying instruction incorporates these little details, and I just missed it back in the 70's. I'll keep reading, maybe I'll learn something!

But, I still would like PPRuNe to provide an acronym list for out of towners!

I find it kind of ironic that a guy with a acronym in his own pprune handle is complaining about the use of an instructional acronym on an instructor forum.

While to somebody with 6000 hours the idea of an acronym for going from straight and level to climb sounds silly what about the student on their second hour ever in an airplane. How would you explain the correct order of actions to a student in a simple and easy to remember way ?

[Pilot DAR]

Hahaha!

his own PPRuNe handle

Yup, I gotta give you that one! In fairness to those who would have no plausible way of knowing, in Canada (but not the U.S.), "DAR" stands for Design Approval Represnetative, a Transport Canada Aircraft Certification Delegation. Were I to be in the U.S. it would be "DER".

And no, I certainly don't claim to be qualified to give instructors instruction on instructing! I just remember the terrible time that I had remembering those (few, at the time) acronyms on how to fly a plane. I could eventually remember VOR, NDB, and DME (ususally 'cause I was too lazy to say or write the whole thing), and then came GPS, and my mind was big enough to hold that too. But then someone said GUMPS, and I'd be halfway along downwind not taking time to put the wheels down, while I was trying to remember if GUMPS was for downwind and HASEL for stalls, or the other way around! It was easier to just use the checklist printed for the plane, and remember good airmanship, and it all seemed to work out fine!

But, Intructors, if the acronyms help the new pilots, by all means!

[Cows getting bigger]

Firstly, I agree that the nemonic should only be of use whilst the student pilot is learning the basics of how to fly. I don't think any pilot, including one at skills test phase, should still be thinking about the 'order' used in configuring the aircraft.

All that said, I personally prefer the SHT method as the 'hold' bit can be used to emphasise that trimming cannot be completed until the aircraft is in a steady state. In my book, there are too many students who chase the trim because they haven't sorted-out the aircraft.

[Piper.Classique]

While to somebody with 6000 hours the idea of an acronym for going from straight and level to climb sounds silly what about the student on their second hour ever in an airplane. How would you explain the correct order of actions to a student in a simple and easy to remember way ?
*


Well,
I usually ask them to think about what happens going up and down a hill in a car, which sorts out the attitude and power. Of course the steepness of the slope is chosen by the pilot, not imposed by the geography, but it does seem to get the message across. For the trim, it is a question of not then having to push or pull in order to hold the attitude. Of course, for non drivers I have to change the analogy, but I find students tend to remember what they should be doing once they have understood the reason behind the action. All part of the preflight briefing, no acronyms required.

[shumway76]

So would P-A-T or SHoT technique be better?

[Big Pistons Forever]

A-P-T for the climb and P-A-T for the descent is my preferred method because it clearly lays out the order of the key fundamental factors required to properly fly the aircraft.

[Fostex]

"A-P-T for the climb"

- You establish attitude for the climb before applying the power necessary to maintain that attitude and airspeed in the climb!!??
- Hope you don't use that technique on a go-around!

[Tmbstory]

They were part of the instructing medium in the late fifty's when I was a wee lad, so have stood the test of time.

Tmb

[Squawk_code]

One big part missing...LOOKOUT then PAT/APT!

[mad_jock]

Who says they get to look inside when they are patting the cat or for matter if there is anything to see even if they do :D

[Heston]

"Pat the cat" sounds like a dodgy euphemism to me...

H

[foxmoth]

shumway76 So would P-A-T or SHoT technique be better?


PAT (for entry), APT (for level off) gives ORDER, SHoT (and then CHECK And ADJUST) gives technique.

[Big Pistons Forever]

"A-P-T for the climb"

- You establish attitude for the climb before applying the power necessary to maintain that attitude and airspeed in the climb!!??
- Hope you don't use that technique on a go-around!

Ummmm.....When you apply power the aircraft accelerates along the flight path it is established on, so if it is close to the ground and pointed at the ground why would you want to accelerate towards the ground, If you point it at the sky first and then add power it will accelerate away from the ground. It is not like there is going to be a big delay in adding power as the power should be coming in as the nose is rotated to the climbing attitude.

In any case A-P-T is applied when you are teaching the initial climbing lesson where the aircraft will be going from cruise flight to a normal climb at a lower airspeed. So again why apply full power have the aircraft start to accelerate and then have the aircraft rotate to the climb attitude and then start slowing down ? It makes a lot more sense to establish the attitude first and then smoothly apply full power. It also is easier for the student to keep the aircraft balanced ( ie prevent yaw) if the aircraft is already in the climbing attitude.

The point of A-P-T is to give the student guidance for the initial climbing exercise. They should pretty quickly be able to do the actions necessary automatically.

The bottom line is simple. The key to doing the exercise properly is for the student to be able to recognize and hold the correct attitude

[foxmoth]

So again why apply full power have the aircraft start to accelerate and then have the aircraft rotate to the climb attitude and then start slowing down ? It makes a lot more sense to establish the attitude first and then smoothly apply full power. It also is easier for the student to keep the aircraft balanced ( ie prevent yaw) if the aircraft is already in the climbing attitude.

If you apply the power, secondary effect pitches it up anyway so saving effort and giving a faster and more efficient transition to the climb, there is no noticeable acceleration either, and I do not see why balance is any easier applying power after establishing climb attitude. certainly the way I was taught.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Increasing power will (a) pitch up, then (b) create a rate of climb in the majority of aeroplanes.

If you want to increase speed, use the stick! Increasing power will decrease trimmed speed in the vast majority of aeroplanes (don't try it in a Thruster).



Back to discussion, what's everybody's "norm", I'd go with:

- Start of climb: PAT
- End of climb: APT
- Start of descent: PAT or APT (doesn't make a big difference)
- End of descent: PAT

Looking at that, APT at the top of descent or climb, and PAT at the bottom is probably a reasonable approach to teach?

Oh ****, I think I've just created a horrible training mnemonic there.

"APT the top, PAT her bottom" anybody?

G

[Big Pistons Forever]

If you apply the power, secondary effect pitches it up anyway so saving effort and giving a faster and more efficient transition to the climb, there is no noticeable acceleration either, and I do not see why balance is any easier applying power after establishing climb attitude. certainly the way I was taught.

My experience over 23 + years of teaching flying is that for the very early lessons the most effective way to learn is to break each manoever into sequential pieces. If you apply power first the yaw will have to be corrected at the same time as the aircraft is pitching up. Waiting for student to get the nose up before adding power is easier for the student. With practice they will be able to pitch up, add power and control yaw all at the same time which is the desired end state for demonstrating competence for this manoever.


In any case I would suggest that the order A-P-T or P-A-T has more to do with personal preferences and there is no one "right" way here. The important thing is that the student is setting the right attitude, uses the rudder to keep the aircraft in balance and trims away the stick force.

[mad_jock]

That will work for me G :D

As said before its amazing the number of commercial pilots that cant do what we are discussing when they start there first type.

[foxmoth]

- Start of descent: PAT or APT (doesn't make a big difference)

if you do it this way round, two problems, first, if you are doing a glide descent, it takes ages to get the speed back, so Power first, hold attitude, then lower the nose just before the speed gets where you want it, secondly, you physically have to PUSH the nose down, whereas if you bring the power back first, again, secondary effect will tend to lower the nose (yes, I know that my first argument you physically hold the nose up, but only for a second or so.)

Waiting for student to get the nose up before adding power is easier for the student. Can't really see this myself, you get the nose up, then add power and the nose is trying to come up further because of the power and the student is still having to multitask. Never had a problem (in my 30 odd years of teaching flying:hmm:)with students getting the power on first , correcting the yaw as it comes on and letting the nose come up with the power, this achieves pretty much With practice they will be able to pitch up, add power and control yaw all at the same time which is the desired end state for demonstrating competence for this manoever. straight off and also gets them used to using their feet with power changes.

[Genghis the Engineer]

So you agree that APT works at start of descent then Foxmoth, if not necessarily with my either/or argument?

G

[blagger]

Power reduction must be before pitching down to select the attitude to descend otherwise as others have said you end up fast - this is why loads of people end up fast on the approach because they pitch down then reduce power and end up with lots of speed to lose. For transition to descend on the base leg / for approach it should be reduce power, hold the attitude, then when speed has reduced to the desired descent speed, then lower the nose and trim for the approach speed.

[blagger]

ps - for gmotorgliders that fly the approach at an increased speed from base leg/circuit then APT is of course required and correct!!

[foxmoth]

No, if a glide descent you want the speed back so bring the power back first and hold the attitude to get the speed back, if a cruise descent then bring the power back as required and let the nose go down straight away with secondary effect (though then selecting correct attitude for speed and trimming) to keep speed, either way I would use PAT. I was actually taught (and teach myself) use PAT for ALL except TOC, where you need to be APT (because you need to leave power on to get the speed up) and I think this works well.
If you use APT at start of descent you are having to push against the trim AND the aircraft will accelerate as well which is not usually wanted. Entering both a climb and a cruise descent in practice though you are actually doing Attitude and Power simultaneously.

[shumway76]

Regarding the climb & descend technique (whether using PAT or SHoT), another 'term' comes in - "simultaneuosly" and "progressively".

In the climb, you select full POWER & climb ATTITUDE "simultaneously", then trim.

In the glide descend, you select idle POWER, then "progressively" select glide descend ATTITUDE as you approach glide speed.

Did I just cause more confusion...?

[foxmoth]

Did I just cause more confusion...?

Yes, though not necessarily a bad method - In the climb, you select full POWER & climb ATTITUDE "simultaneously", works OK for me, not quite so sure about "progressively" for the descent.

[Pull what]

Plus don't forget:

PAT and APT tell you how to achieve, to maintain use, L.A.I. :

LLookout
In a scan loop ahead, look out to the left and scan from left to right, passing over the nose of the aeroplane.

A Attitude
Ensure the attitude is correct relative to the horizon and, more importantly, constant.

I Instruments
Used to confirm accurate flight – not set it. From right to left the instruments are scanned, and this brings the scan back to the left side of the aeroplane and the process starts again.
During the instrument scan, only those instruments important to the phase of flight are read. In this case the altimeter will probably be scanned on every sweep, with oil pressure and temperature scanned every 10th sweep.

Should be PAT for desecent otherwise you may cause confusion on PFL if you teach converting airspeed to altiude,also prepares for base leg reconfiguration, also stops APT & PAT confusion-we teach APT is a pushover!

[Piper.Classique]

All these acronyms confuse me, and I've been instructing a while now. How about we give a proper lesson on the ground and er well EXPLAIN the effects of controls? It shouldn't be a memory test, all flying is about is using the controls to place the aircraft in an appropriate attitude to achieve the result you want. Going up requires more power than cruising for any reasonable rate of climb, going down less or none depending on what you are trying to do. In all cases the trim should be used to help maintain the attitude you have set with the stick, the rudder maintains balance, and if there is a rudder trim so much the better. Most light aircraft the attitude change is fairly small from cruising to a descent at the same speed, the student may well need to control the usual tendency to pitch down with a power reduction.

Until they can do all of that with their eyes outside the cockpit there is no point teaching any other exercise, or letting them look at the instruments. This is the absolute basis of all flying, and should not be rushed. Use the natural horizon to show wings level and pitch attitude. Yaw will show as a change of heading despite wings level. Yes, the student has to do two things at a time, making a change to the power setting and controling the aircraft in three axes. Then they trim. If the student can't quite cope then set the power for them while they set the attitude.

Ok, that's what I teach. Acronyms are fine ihmo for checklist items, but this is basic handling and needs to be learned by the muscles, not the brain. Now shoot me down.

[Pilot DAR]

Piper.C, I cannot find the "Like" button for your post. If I could, I would click it!

[mad_jock]

Nah piper I don't use them apart from pat the cat even then if they get it I don't bother.

Sometimes they are used as a beating stick by some instructors.

I was once asked in a aggressive tone "have you done your "chump" checks" or some such after departure.

I looked at the instructor and said "yep your still onboard"


I don't think the boy wonder had been told before he was talking complete and utter pish before in a debrief. Apparently we could have died because I didn't check that the welded undercarrage wasn't still welded. The mixture which I had my hand on could have rattled cut off and the fixed pitch prop could have done something, what I couldn't quite figure out.

I was informed that these checks were important if I was moving on to complex aircraft like he had. Which again he was told he was talking pish.

Silly boy hadn't bothered finding out what my experence level was.

Still rented me the plane mind when he bothered to check my license. Green unrestricted trumpted blue restricted I presume.

[BEagle]

'PAT' is taught by CFS as a technique used whilst changing power settings, it is not taught as a mnemonic used for changing attitude. However, it was hi-jacked by some civil FI years ago and is now misused - as its wretched sibling 'APT'.

For example, when entering a climb, you apply full power, hold the attitude and trim as you do so...

...but then to enter the climb, you use the mnemonic 'SHT' - you Select the climb attitude, Hold the attitude and Trim. To maintian the climb, you use the mnemonic 'LAI' - L00kout, adjust the Attitude if necessary by reference to the Instruments. When levelling off, it is again 'SHT', then as the aircraft accelerates, you progressively adjust the Attitude and Trim.

As for DRIBBLE (or is it DABBLE? Whichever, it's still bolleaux), CHUMP and other such nonsense......

PAT - when changing power settings
SHT - when changing attitude
LAI - when maintaining anything
paAT - when accelerating / decelerating

Nothing else needed. And I once vowed to shoot the next idiot who spouted 'Turn Time Talk' as the sequence of actions you should teach for turning points on a visual navigation exercise...:ugh:

[Pilot DAR]

So is there a mnemonic to tell you which mnemonic is to be used for a given phase of flight?

[chopabeefer]

Having taught for several thousand hours in the RAF, I know how they do it at least, and it works brilliantly (not to say there isn't a better way of course, but I haven't seen it).

When a PAT comes out of a cows arse, it goes down. When a helicopter goes down, being it the initiation of the descent or the level off, it's PAT. Bear in mind that what you might be doing with the attitude is (trim button IN) holding it constant. For the climb and level it is APT. If you are in the cruise faster than your climb speed, then selecting a decel att has the benefits of starting the climb whilst reducing speed to best RoC or whatever you need. If you are already at the climb speed in the cruise, then hold the attitude.

I taught basic and advanced rotary at Shawbury, SH and SAR at OCU/Sqn level, did Standards and trapped. I never once saw an occasion where these techniques did not work perfectly, without modification. Pilots I have flown with in Civvy street who did not 'learn' these techniques, tend to do them anyway, without knowing what they were called - it's a natural way to fly.

[BEagle]

Helicopters defy the laws of physics and techniques to fly the 'orrible clattering things are not to be confused with the art of flying proper aeroplanes....


...:p

[Bill Macgillivray]

Well said BEagle !!:ok::ok:

[foxmoth]

How about we give a proper lesson on the ground and er well EXPLAIN the effects of controls?

This would be ideal in theory, but as soon as you get a low hour student into the air he loses 75% of his brain and many will not remember what was explained half an hour before on the ground, so I find explaining it on the ground and then having something simple to help apply it works well for most.

[Piper.Classique]

but as soon as you get a low hour student into the air he loses 75% of his brain and many will not remember what was explained half an hour before on the ground, so I find explaining it on the ground and then having something simple to help apply it works well for most.
Oh, I think you are being a bit harsh there Foxmoth
Fifty per cent is probably more like it. So how is he going to remember what the PAT and stuff mean? Could we use "more power for up, and the stick changes the pitch attitude"? And "the aircraft follows the movement of your hand"?

[mad_jock]

piper your teaching frogs how to fly.

Foxmouth is teaching folk from Hampshire.

You could both be correct. Depending on the the local gene pool or lack of it.

[Pilot DAR]

piper your teaching frogs how to fly.

Foxmouth is teaching folk from Hampshire.

So... Just 'cause I'm following along.... The Frence manage to fly without Piper C. having to use code to teach. The Brits like to demonstrate their amazing multi tasking skills; memorizing, decoding, and flying all at once?

the 'orrible clattering things are not to be confused with the art of flying proper aeroplanes....



It has been said that helicopters only fly because the earth rejects them... But I sure did learn a lot about flying fixed wing with precision, while getting my helicopter license...

[foxmoth]

Could we use "more power for up, and the stick changes the pitch attitude"? And "the aircraft follows the movement of your hand"?

I get the first bit - but this only seems to cover entering a climb, what about when you level off? and I don't get your "the aircraft follows the movement of your hand", are you talking Effect of controls here or climbing and descending:confused:

[mad_jock]

But I sure did learn a lot about flying fixed wing with precision, while getting my helicopter license...

Where as rotary you learned how to mastabate a mouse?

[Pilot DAR]

Hmmm, Osage, Cayuse, Kiowa, Colibri, Squirrel... but no Mouse

[Crash one]

Jeezus H Christ.:mad::mad::mad:

[Piper.Classique]

It's actually quite hard to separate effects of conrols from the other lessons, as this is the basis of all flying.

To answer your question,
I didn't give the whole lesson but the basis is to use the stick to control the attitude, and adjust the power to get either climb, descent or level flight at the attitude required. Effects of controls covers this, power is a control. The student needs to learn that there is a relationship between what he does with the flight controls and the engine.
So leveling off I would say "put the aircraft in the cruising attitude, let it accelerate while holding that attitude, then reduce power to cruise power while stopping yaw with the rudder. Ok, are you having to push or pull to hold the attitude? If so, trim out that force as you hold the attitude where you want it"
No decoding required. Except I would say it in French.......
I will accept an approximation to the cruising, climbing, or descending speed, they don't have the instrument scan yet, as long as we are doing what we said we wanted with the rpm about right. I.E blue side up, no yaw or roll, and not going up or down when we said we wanted cruise, and not over red line rpm. The essential thing is to get the student flying without him having to think about what his hands and feet should be doing because they are doing the learning, it's not brain memory it's muscle memory, we are just getting the inputs in the right direction for now.
Do I need to go through what happens to go down?

Climbing, descending and straight and level are another lesson, where we look at doing all the above at different speeds, which means introducing an instrument scan but by then the student should be able to use both hands and his feet to put the aircraft in an appropriate attitude without acronyms and control the changes in yaw, roll, and pitch induced by the whirly thing up front or wherever it is located.

And the aircraft always follows the movement of your hand unless you are spinning it, which comes a little later in the student's progression.

[foxmoth]

And the aircraft always follows the movement of your hand

So this is really effect of control which is what was confusing me as you were bringing it into the discussion of Climbing and Descending - I would have done this earlier and not not expect to have to be re-teaching this at the Climbing/Descending stage. Neither would I expect at this stage to be teaching them how to trim as this would also have been taught already (though I would be re enforcing the fact that they need to trim). But then I suppose you teach a little differently in France.

[Piper.Classique]

(though I would be re enforcing the fact that they need to trim). But then I suppose you teach a little differently in France.

Not really, it is the same syllabus. I personally emphasize some things but we all have our strong points, fetishes, what ever. When I fly with students who have mostly been taught by other instructors I find points that I like to emphasize, and I am sure the same thing applies when my students fly with different instructors. So we manage to get it all across somehow. Mostly I find trimming needs to be hammered home. :ugh:

[mad_jock]

Mostly I find trimming needs to be hammered home

I have never thought of trimming as a fetish. Although I am beginning to think flying an aircraft in trim is a bit of a perversion.

[foxmoth]

Mostly I find trimming needs to be hammered home.

Whilst I find that it takes time for students to get to grips with trimming I find it is more a case of making sure they have done it rather than constantly telling them how to do it, normally, once they have completed a manoeuvre I ask them if they are happy and then just ask them to take their hands off the controls - they soon realise then the importance of trimming properly.:}

[Piper.Classique]

I didn't say I constantly told them HOW to do it, did I? Yes, I expect we all tell them to take their hands off the controls to check. Usually this makes the aircraft fly more smoothly, as well :E

[foxmoth]

I didn't say I constantly told them HOW to do it, did I?

Well:-

Ok, are you having to push or pull to hold the attitude? If so, trim out that force as you hold the attitude where you want it"

when teaching level off, sounds like telling them how to do it at least three lessons after Effect of Controls(1)!!:8

[Piper.Classique]

Foxmoth. If you read my post carefully I think you will see that I am teaching handling. Basic how to work the controls to make the aircraft do what you want. Now feel free to have the last word, as this is getting tiring. :ugh:

[foxmoth]

Now feel free to have the last word, as this is getting tiring why do you think I put:-
But then I suppose you teach a little differently in France.

But you decided to keep it going.