Cheap Hour Building

[Yorky9]

Last summer I went to Spain to complete my hour building, completing just over 80 hours in under 3 months. I chose Spain to save in travel costs (flights, visas etc. involved in going to the states again) and with such good weather I could fly almost every day, plus the bonus of enjoying the time away.

What I wanted to know is whether fellow pilots on Pprune would be interested in doing the same?

Feedback would be greatly appreciated

[madlandrover]

I recently ''built'' 210 hours in 2-3 months flying the C208b in Belize (with actual passengers).

Hours not valid under JAR though, in a single pilot aircraft.

[cgwhitemonk11]

What you say is correct, but I'm not trying to unfreeze my ATPL off my own back (that would be ridiculously expensive and also retarded).

Who cares if the hours are not recognized under JAR? They were not flown under JAR.
''The C208b is operated under FAR91, and is a single pilot aircraft, the local regulations state that it can be operated with a co-pilot and - or PICUS, which is the aim of this program.''

The real reason why they need pilots for this program is that they fly to Guatemala (low vis and one of the most beautiful approaches I've ever seen by the way) which requires two pilots to operate passenger flights above 7-8 ppl(cant remember which)

Will they make me more attractive to an airline knowing I can handle that beast on gravel airstrips in rough weather? Maybe.

Will they make me a better pilot? Oh hell yeah they did. :ok:

Oh and did I mention I met a guy over there who's sorting me out with an airline job over here?! Networking baby :cool:

[madlandrover]

Who cares if the hours are not recognized under JAR?

Not a problem if you don't want the hours recognised under JAR - and I'm not disputing the useful experience of operating regulated pax carrying flights - but the great majority of hour building questions in the Private Flying forum relate to CPL or other licence issue requirements. It's best to clarify early on what sort of hour building is required, as with some of the rather cheap pre-CPL programs operated under authorities which allow 2 qualified pilots in a single pilot aircraft to both log PIC.

[A and C]

I think without more details it is very hard to tell if hour building in Spain is a good idea.

It may be hard to believe but the cost of hour building in the UK is almost the same as in the USA when all the costs are factored in, I suspect that the same is true of Spain.

Only when you post the full details can people decide if this idea is an economic way of doing things or a holiday with a bit of flying attached.

[Mickey Kaye]

Another factor to account for in the economic situation is the drop straight into an airline with 200 hours and know jack **** route is currently dead.

Thus many people will have to do a stint in GA - which in my opinion is no bad thing.

From time to time I get to shift through CV at a local rf and FTO and I can tell you that those who have no or little hours in the UK go straight in the bin.

I'm also far convinced that hour building is any cheaper in the USA

[Yorky9]

I completed 80 hours in little over 2 months, not flying every day.

Would there be interest for SEP hour building packages for 110-130 euros per hour? (rates depending on how many hours)

Also Experience days flying with a qualified instructor?

[tim_xxx83]

Hi! I've been reading yr post as I am looking for a good place to some hour building. Where have you been in Spain? What was the school name? Could you please tell me more about your experience in there? thanks a lot M

[olicana]

Just do it in the uk?? by the time you have factored in accomodation etc its probably as cheap.
Spring is on the doorstep so the weather will improve.

[proudprivate]

I chose Spain to save in travel costs (flights, visas etc. involved in going to the states again)


Flight to the states would set you back about 700 EUR.
With Avgas at $5 / gallon instead of $15 / gallon and dry rentals about half the price from in Europe, You would start benefiting from around the 25th hour.

If nobody instructs you (apart from checking out the aircraft), why would you need a VISA ? And if its occasional instruction (the "experience" days that you refer to), a B1/B2 would be sufficient, which is valid for 10 years.


Spring is on the doorstep so the [UK] weather will improve


It depends on the time and flexibility of the OP. My experience in trying to schedule flight training / hour building in the UK is not a good one, mostly because of the sh1te weather. Spain, Greece, Southern France and the US are much more reliable in this sense, especially when stretched out over a two month period average.

[A and C]

Hour building on a Cessna 152 is going to cost about £ 90-100 per hour once all the costs are taken into account, of you go to the USA the aircraft rental is cheap but the costs of airline tickets, hotels, eating out Etc are the things that push up the price to European levels for aircraft rental.

It is a myth that you can fly all day in the USA without encountering weather problems, high winds in Florida afternoons, haze in the LA area & thunderstorms in the mid west are all common problems that stop VFR flight. Now this is were the small print in some hours building contracts gets you, you suddenly find that you can't get the money back if you don't do the contracted hours.

I am not saying that going to the USA is a bad idea but you must go in with your eyes wide open otherwise you are likely to pay more than you expected.

If you do go to the USA stay away from the usual suspects along the east & west coasts, try the mid west or the Michigan as the costs are a lot lower than Florida & California for both the aircraft & accommodation.

The one thing is sure there is no such thing as cheap in this business, the thing to look for is inexpensive, this usually is delivered by a reputable company that at first might look to cost more than the bargain basement operators.

[proudprivate]

I guess it depends on what the OP wants.

A Cessna 152 is definitely the cheapest way to build flight time. But it is an absolutely crap machine as regards to X-wind handling capabilities and endurance. I would not recommend it for X-country sightseeing.

On the other hand, short distance flights have the disadvantage of needing more landings, which in Europe incur landing fees.

+1 on not going to Florida. I would not be so negative on California wx. Also, there are some very competitive flying clubs there that offer rentals you simply cannot beat.

+1 on the Midwest.

And the views are spectacular. Check out the Mesas in Arizona; Visit Las Vegas; The river banks of the Missouri; just about the entire state of California; Oregon and Washington; etc...

If the Avgas price in Europe were reasonable, you would of course do France, Italy and Spain instead.

[Yorky9]

I completed my PPL and 50 hours of hour building in Florida and can tell you that the weather conditions are no more favourable stateside than mainland Europe.

In terms of operator, I agree this is of great importance, however with Hour building I feel getting the hours completed, with reliable aircraft and enjoying these great flying experiences at a decent rate is vital.

Would anyone be interested in hour building in Spain?

[A and C]

The European cost of fuel can be tempered by going in and out of the UK, The Republic of Ireland and the Channel islands with the drawback of duty on the fuel.

The Europe vs USA cost issue is not as clear as in might seem and requires a lot of looking at not just on a cost An hour building basis but also on the basis of the extra training that you are likely to require when you return to Europe for your ATPL course as undoubtedly you will need some extra navigation training to pass the skills test in a European environment.

[proudprivate]

The European cost of fuel can be tempered by going in and out of the UK, The Republic of Ireland and the Channel islands with the drawback of duty on the fuel.


I agree. But then you're no longer flying a spam can (I hope).


The Europe vs USA cost issue is not as clear as in might seem and requires a lot of looking...


+1 on that. Of course you have to do some research into such a project.
- how much time do I have
- how many hours do I need / want
- how much value do I place on seeing things and making it enjoyable
- what are the exact costs; which expenditure is truly different (surplus / benefit)


the extra training that you are likely to require when you return to Europe for your ATPL course as undoubtedly you will need some extra navigation training to pass the skills test in a European environment.


That is making the wrong assumption that "Europe" is a homogeneous flying environment, especially as regards navigation and RT. Flying in Spain is different from flying in France is different from flying in Belgium is different from flying in the UK.

I agree that a dozen hours or so in the FIR where you are going to pass your skill test is a good idea and that you should not budget ALL your needed hours into the hour building exercise.


Would anyone be interested in hour building in Spain?


Potentially yes, but not on SE. You can PM me details (location, price, rental conditions, etc...) if the OP you went to rents out ME machines.

[A and C]

Quote:-I agree but you are no longer flying a spam can ( I hope )

I dont understand this comment, could you please expand on it.

[proudprivate]

I meant that, while the spam can is cheap to fly (and to accumulate hours in), it is a bad cross country travel instrument because

- A more than slight crosswind at your destination makes it a risky venture
- The limited fuel capacity of 26 (?) gallons limits the range as well as the possibilities to divert if necessary.

So if you are mentioning the "out of country" travel possibilities to lower the average fuel cost, you are faced the restrictions above in a C152.

As a result, you would want to make those trips in at least a C172 or a PA28 or something that carries 48 gallons.

[206Fan]

I completed my PPL and 50 hours of hour building in Florida and can tell you that the weather conditions are no more favourable stateside than mainland Europe.I done the same Yorky, only I completed the Helicopter PPL. Tbh I wouldn't go back near Florida to fly. The weather caught me out a few times plus the endless amount of our feathered friends in the sky. Every time I went up it was like an obstacle course. If I went back to America to fly I would go further inland or hit the West Coast to try it out.

Dave

[Pilot DAR]

A Cessna 152 is definitely the cheapest way to build flight time. But it is an absolutely crap machine as regards to X-wind handling capabilities and endurance. I would not recommend it for X-country sightseeing.

Thank goodness there is more than one person's opinion available for consideration in life!

Speaking as a 25 year owner of a 150, with 2800 hours on it during that time, I can tell you that it is a low cost aircraft, remarkably reliable, and adequate for a long cross country, as long as you're patient - but you're trying to "build hours" aren't you? So, what's your hurry?

I have flown it from central Canada to just about every area of the Atlantic coast, including the Bahamas, and Gulf of Mexico, and well into the western half of the continent. Endurance? Well yes, the C182RG or C310 I also flew, would fly those routes faster, with a bigger load, and fewer stops, but at a cost that was many times the cost to operate the 150. So for my wife and I, two folding bikes, and modest bags for a week, the 150 is just right. When the fuel ticket comes, I don't cringe at the cost.

Crosswinds always require a little extra skill in any aircraft. I have had no problem in a direct corsswind of 22 knots, though I did find 37G43, 30 degrees off the runway heading, a challenge one day. I have flown larger aircraft, which were less able to handle a crosswind than a 150/152.

And, when it comes to one day having to sell my 150, it will bring more than four times what I paid for it. So, really, I flew nearly for the cost of the fuel, considering I have done an engine overhaul, paint, interior, and new radios. Oh, and the fuel? Mogas in my tank at home, and I get the road tax portion of the fuel cost refunded to me, so it's cheaper than putting that fuel in a car.

The only plane which is crap, is the really poorly maintained one. All others are designed and built to serve a particular role. Pick what you want, and pay the cost, but don't complain about it!

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Family/JimandbikeonGeorgiabeach.jpg

My wife, on her bike, took the photo, on a beach in Georgia.....

[shortstripper]

Simples!

Buy a cheap single seat LAA type (VP1, FRED, ect) keep it for a year and you'll learn more and clock up the hours for a lot lot less! Maybe not so appealling to the airline pilot brigade, but hours is hours and you'd learn a lot more than just flying the same old aircraft that you did your PPL in!

:ok:

[cgwhitemonk11]

Poststripper,

Got one to sell? :)

[cgwhitemonk11]

Belize - A Pilot's Life - YouTube

check out this link to a video I made doing my hour building.

word of warning you wont be able to find it in 48 hours as I have to make it private (a mandatory result of not inviting the chief of operations to my leaving party!)

What a time we had!

[PipeDreamer]

Hey CG, sounds like you had quite an experience!
I am quite interested in how you got into a job like that and I hope you don't mind me asking a few questions? I take it you applied with a CPL, but how many hours did you have under your belt? Also, what made you choose Belize? It looks like such an amazing place!!
Thanks, PipeDreamer

[Yorky9]

Great video. What are you guys up to now?

[letpmar]

If your looking for hour building in an laa type give me a pm


Pete

[DiamondC]

I have just come back from a 10-day trip to Arizona to build hours. It is significantly less expensive than flying in the UK and (in Arizona at least) and flyable days/hours are more predictable.

I was based in Phoenix and the cost of flying there (Piper Cherokee 140) was about £83 per hour. (There would be cheaper options in the US but I was prepared to pay some extra for reliability.) When I added in the cost of airfares, hotel, car rental, travel insurance including flying cover, charts, dual check-out etc it came out at £119 per solo hour. This is much less than the cost of flying from my flying club in the UK (Piper Warrior £140 - £165 per hour plus landing fees at the landaway and transport costs to/from the airport).

Equally importantly, I could take a specified time away from work and be fairly confident I would get the hours I planned. I don't get paid for days I don't work so taking a week off to fly in the UK and spending some of it grounded because the weather is unflyable is expensive. For those who have more flexibility in their work hours, or who aren't working, the UK might be a more cost-competitive option.

In Arizona, I did 42 solo hours in 8 days. It is of course up to you whether you use your hours for productive learning or just fly back and forth from the same airport many times. I did high altitude and mountain flying, transits over Phoenix Internal Airport (very cool!) and through Class D airspace, flew into the Palm Springs Terminal Radar Services Area (TRSA) which has its own specific rules, and landed at 15 different airports to make the most of those "no landing fees" :) There are some interesting places to visit too: flying over the Grand Canyon, through Monument Valley, and looking at volcanic and meteorite craters are memorable.

The types of flying I didn't experience were cross-wind landings and managing adverse weather, but I get plenty of practice with those in the UK :)

Getting hours in the US can be cost-effective and can be a good learning experience if you look at the total costs, time available, and type of learning you need.

[DiamondC]

Should also add that the flying above ^^ was not pre-paid, each flight was paid for after the flight. The only exception was to pay a deposit for the dual check-out (which is fair enough given that they only knew me as an email address and voice on the phone).

[A and C]

DiamondC

It sounds like you got a good deal, some time ago I posted on this forum that it is best to keep away from the usual suspects in Florada, your post seems to back up this advice as you had no pre paying and did not loose any money when you unable to fly.

[sapperkenno]

More people need to look at Arizona... A Flight School I know and love, and always harp on about on here now have a Cherokee 140 (news to me, but I'm going out there later this month so will check it out for myself) which is $85/hour. That's less than £60 at current exchange rates. Their C172/PA-28s are around $100/hour, still a massive saving over the UK.

I'm all for promoting GA in the UK, and work at a school in the North of England where we have a very reasonably priced C150 (£100/hr) and C172 (£130/hour) with none of the membership fees and landing/approach fees normally associated with operating here.

It's sickening to think, that for 50 hours in our C150, you could do 50 hours in the States in the Cherokee, and have £2000 left over to cover your return flights, car hire, accommodation and food etc...

[cgwhitemonk11]

pipedreamer:

Its been a while now since i was there but i have a friend who was there last year and he was under the old system which was great. But unfortunately the golden goose is gone as now i think they charge 4000 usd for a month of hour building which is much more than double what it used to be, also San Pedro is not a cheap place to get to or live in so budget 1500 usd a month minimum in living costs if you were to go and have a nice time.

Still.......

I cannot recommend it enough if you have the time and mindset, one of the most beautiful places in the world (the girls aren't bad either :ok:) and probably the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on.

It depends what people are looking for, the hours don't count towards unfreezing your ATPL but i can tell from experience that the flying experience helped me get a skydive job when i returned, and now im flying a twin turbine in my second flying job just over a year after I left Belize.

All my other friends who went there are currently flying for a living

[abgd]

I pay £80 per tacho hour and £50 a month in the UK, and this is not so unusual away from the home counties. Unfortunately I missed out on joining a group for £1500 equity for £50 a month and £50 per flying hour. Cessna 150/152.

[A and C]

I guess you are lucky missing out not he cheap C152 group, I doubt if they will have the money to cover the SID's checks on the aircraft when charging that sort of rate.

[DiamondC]

Sapperkenno, we might be talking about the same place. In addition to the headline rate on their website ($85.00 per hour) you need to factor in:
(1) Sales tax, which in the US is not included in the list price of anything, even at the supermarket
(2) Extra fuel costs. They reimburse for fuel you buy at other airports at the cost you would pay at their home airport. If you did short flights (no need to fuel while away) or checked around for the cheapest fuel at other airports there wouldn't be an extra cost. I was on a tight schedule and was focussed on seeing interesting places, so just fuelled where needed and paid extra for the difference in fuel costs.

[ChrisA87]

Joined a non-equity group for £80 per tacho hour and £30 per month in a C152.

CG: I am off to Belize!!

[jmparis]

I'm currently hour building in the UK and have only managed 12 hours so far this year. A friend of mine in a similar situation told me about Fly-in-Spain and I was wondering if this is a good option? I have read various opinions about hour building in the UK being better experience and more favoured by the airlines however Fly-in-Spain claim to be CAA approved and are based in Jerez like FTE. I know there are quite a few similar threads but I was hoping to get some recent experiences and possibly some advice from those further down the commercial path than me.

[thing]

You flew it all the way to Georgia DAR?:eek:

[davidatter708]

Currently in a group in the uk £45/month £40/ hr wet. Why go anywhere else

[jmparis]

Hi David Atter,

Which airfield is your group based at and what aircraft do they have available?

[davidatter708]

Jmparis I've pm'd you

[Rod1]

It is probably this;

Jodel D112 1/5 Share for sale based at Leicester airport, Wassmer factory built airframe 4420 hrs, Continental A65 engine and prop 500 hrs since major overhaul, aircraft well maintained and in good condition.

Friendly group with good availability, online booking system.

Running cost £45 month, £40 hour wet


Jodel D112 share for sale Leicester (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=25489)

Rod1

[davidatter708]

Rod1 is indeed right. I didn't know the advert was out there else I'd have posted it. Cheers rod1

David

[jmparis]

I did already write quite a detailed post asking about One Air Aviation but it was deleted by admin for no apparent reason. So to summarise does anybody have any recent experience with this company?

Edit: Just to be clear I have posted in this thread as I am considering hour building with them.