Cheap Hour Building

[Yorky9]

Last summer I went to Spain to complete my hour building, completing just over 80 hours in under 3 months. I chose Spain to save in travel costs (flights, visas etc. involved in going to the states again) and with such good weather I could fly almost every day, plus the bonus of enjoying the time away.

What I wanted to know is whether fellow pilots on Pprune would be interested in doing the same?

Feedback would be greatly appreciated

[madlandrover]

I recently ''built'' 210 hours in 2-3 months flying the C208b in Belize (with actual passengers).

Hours not valid under JAR though, in a single pilot aircraft.

[cgwhitemonk11]

Hours not valid.... And?!

What you say is correct, but I'm not trying to unfreeze my ATPL off my own back (that would be ridiculously expensive and also retarded).

Who cares if the hours are not recognized under JAR? They were not flown under JAR.
''The C208b is operated under FAR91, and is a single pilot aircraft, the local regulations state that it can be operated with a co-pilot and - or PICUS, which is the aim of this program.''

The real reason why they need pilots for this program is that they fly to Guatemala (low vis and one of the most beautiful approaches I've ever seen by the way) which requires two pilots to operate passenger flights above 7-8 ppl(cant remember which)

Will they make me more attractive to an airline knowing I can handle that beast on gravel airstrips in rough weather? Maybe.

Will they make me a better pilot? Oh hell yeah they did.

Oh and did I mention I met a guy over there who's sorting me out with an airline job over here?! Networking baby

[madlandrover]

Who cares if the hours are not recognized under JAR?

Not a problem if you don't want the hours recognised under JAR - and I'm not disputing the useful experience of operating regulated pax carrying flights - but the great majority of hour building questions in the Private Flying forum relate to CPL or other licence issue requirements. It's best to clarify early on what sort of hour building is required, as with some of the rather cheap pre-CPL programs operated under authorities which allow 2 qualified pilots in a single pilot aircraft to both log PIC.

[A and C]

Yorky9

I think without more details it is very hard to tell if hour building in Spain is a good idea.

It may be hard to believe but the cost of hour building in the UK is almost the same as in the USA when all the costs are factored in, I suspect that the same is true of Spain.

Only when you post the full details can people decide if this idea is an economic way of doing things or a holiday with a bit of flying attached.

[Mickey Kaye]

Another factor to account for in the economic situation is the drop straight into an airline with 200 hours and know jack **** route is currently dead.

Thus many people will have to do a stint in GA - which in my opinion is no bad thing.

From time to time I get to shift through CV at a local rf and FTO and I can tell you that those who have no or little hours in the UK go straight in the bin.

I'm also far convinced that hour building is any cheaper in the USA

[Yorky9]

I completed 80 hours in little over 2 months, not flying every day.

Would there be interest for SEP hour building packages for 110-130 euros per hour? (rates depending on how many hours)

Also Experience days flying with a qualified instructor?

[tim_xxx83]

hour building Spain

Hi! I've been reading yr post as I am looking for a good place to some hour building. Where have you been in Spain? What was the school name? Could you please tell me more about your experience in there? thanks a lot M

[olicana]

Just do it in the uk?? by the time you have factored in accomodation etc its probably as cheap.
Spring is on the doorstep so the weather will improve.

[proudprivate]

I chose Spain to save in travel costs (flights, visas etc. involved in going to the states again)

Flight to the states would set you back about 700 EUR.
With Avgas at $5 / gallon instead of $15 / gallon and dry rentals about half the price from in Europe, You would start benefiting from around the 25th hour.

If nobody instructs you (apart from checking out the aircraft), why would you need a VISA ? And if its occasional instruction (the "experience" days that you refer to), a B1/B2 would be sufficient, which is valid for 10 years.

Spring is on the doorstep so the [UK] weather will improve

It depends on the time and flexibility of the OP. My experience in trying to schedule flight training / hour building in the UK is not a good one, mostly because of the sh1te weather. Spain, Greece, Southern France and the US are much more reliable in this sense, especially when stretched out over a two month period average.

[A and C]

Cheap hour building ? I think not !!

Hour building on a Cessna 152 is going to cost about £ 90-100 per hour once all the costs are taken into account, of you go to the USA the aircraft rental is cheap but the costs of airline tickets, hotels, eating out Etc are the things that push up the price to European levels for aircraft rental.

It is a myth that you can fly all day in the USA without encountering weather problems, high winds in Florida afternoons, haze in the LA area & thunderstorms in the mid west are all common problems that stop VFR flight. Now this is were the small print in some hours building contracts gets you, you suddenly find that you can't get the money back if you don't do the contracted hours.

I am not saying that going to the USA is a bad idea but you must go in with your eyes wide open otherwise you are likely to pay more than you expected.

If you do go to the USA stay away from the usual suspects along the east & west coasts, try the mid west or the Michigan as the costs are a lot lower than Florida & California for both the aircraft & accommodation.

The one thing is sure there is no such thing as cheap in this business, the thing to look for is inexpensive, this usually is delivered by a reputable company that at first might look to cost more than the bargain basement operators.

[proudprivate]

I guess it depends on what the OP wants.

A Cessna 152 is definitely the cheapest way to build flight time. But it is an absolutely crap machine as regards to X-wind handling capabilities and endurance. I would not recommend it for X-country sightseeing.

On the other hand, short distance flights have the disadvantage of needing more landings, which in Europe incur landing fees.

+1 on not going to Florida. I would not be so negative on California wx. Also, there are some very competitive flying clubs there that offer rentals you simply cannot beat.

+1 on the Midwest.

And the views are spectacular. Check out the Mesas in Arizona; Visit Las Vegas; The river banks of the Missouri; just about the entire state of California; Oregon and Washington; etc...

If the Avgas price in Europe were reasonable, you would of course do France, Italy and Spain instead.

[Yorky9]

Thanks for your input

I completed my PPL and 50 hours of hour building in Florida and can tell you that the weather conditions are no more favourable stateside than mainland Europe.

In terms of operator, I agree this is of great importance, however with Hour building I feel getting the hours completed, with reliable aircraft and enjoying these great flying experiences at a decent rate is vital.

Would anyone be interested in hour building in Spain?

[A and C]

AVGAS price

The European cost of fuel can be tempered by going in and out of the UK, The Republic of Ireland and the Channel islands with the drawback of duty on the fuel.

The Europe vs USA cost issue is not as clear as in might seem and requires a lot of looking at not just on a cost An hour building basis but also on the basis of the extra training that you are likely to require when you return to Europe for your ATPL course as undoubtedly you will need some extra navigation training to pass the skills test in a European environment.

[proudprivate]

The European cost of fuel can be tempered by going in and out of the UK, The Republic of Ireland and the Channel islands with the drawback of duty on the fuel.

I agree. But then you're no longer flying a spam can (I hope).

The Europe vs USA cost issue is not as clear as in might seem and requires a lot of looking...

+1 on that. Of course you have to do some research into such a project.
- how much time do I have
- how many hours do I need / want
- how much value do I place on seeing things and making it enjoyable
- what are the exact costs; which expenditure is truly different (surplus / benefit)

the extra training that you are likely to require when you return to Europe for your ATPL course as undoubtedly you will need some extra navigation training to pass the skills test in a European environment.

That is making the wrong assumption that "Europe" is a homogeneous flying environment, especially as regards navigation and RT. Flying in Spain is different from flying in France is different from flying in Belgium is different from flying in the UK.

I agree that a dozen hours or so in the FIR where you are going to pass your skill test is a good idea and that you should not budget ALL your needed hours into the hour building exercise.

Would anyone be interested in hour building in Spain?

Potentially yes, but not on SE. You can PM me details (location, price, rental conditions, etc...) if the OP you went to rents out ME machines.

[A and C]

Proudprivate

Quote:-I agree but you are no longer flying a spam can ( I hope )

I dont understand this comment, could you please expand on it.

[proudprivate]

I meant that, while the spam can is cheap to fly (and to accumulate hours in), it is a bad cross country travel instrument because

- A more than slight crosswind at your destination makes it a risky venture
- The limited fuel capacity of 26 (?) gallons limits the range as well as the possibilities to divert if necessary.

So if you are mentioning the "out of country" travel possibilities to lower the average fuel cost, you are faced the restrictions above in a C152.

As a result, you would want to make those trips in at least a C172 or a PA28 or something that carries 48 gallons.

[206Fan]

I completed my PPL and 50 hours of hour building in Florida and can tell you that the weather conditions are no more favourable stateside than mainland Europe.

I done the same Yorky, only I completed the Helicopter PPL. Tbh I wouldn't go back near Florida to fly. The weather caught me out a few times plus the endless amount of our feathered friends in the sky. Every time I went up it was like an obstacle course. If I went back to America to fly I would go further inland or hit the West Coast to try it out.

Dave

[Pilot DAR]

A Cessna 152 is definitely the cheapest way to build flight time. But it is an absolutely crap machine as regards to X-wind handling capabilities and endurance. I would not recommend it for X-country sightseeing.

Thank goodness there is more than one person's opinion available for consideration in life!

Speaking as a 25 year owner of a 150, with 2800 hours on it during that time, I can tell you that it is a low cost aircraft, remarkably reliable, and adequate for a long cross country, as long as you're patient - but you're trying to "build hours" aren't you? So, what's your hurry?

I have flown it from central Canada to just about every area of the Atlantic coast, including the Bahamas, and Gulf of Mexico, and well into the western half of the continent. Endurance? Well yes, the C182RG or C310 I also flew, would fly those routes faster, with a bigger load, and fewer stops, but at a cost that was many times the cost to operate the 150. So for my wife and I, two folding bikes, and modest bags for a week, the 150 is just right. When the fuel ticket comes, I don't cringe at the cost.

Crosswinds always require a little extra skill in any aircraft. I have had no problem in a direct corsswind of 22 knots, though I did find 37G43, 30 degrees off the runway heading, a challenge one day. I have flown larger aircraft, which were less able to handle a crosswind than a 150/152.

And, when it comes to one day having to sell my 150, it will bring more than four times what I paid for it. So, really, I flew nearly for the cost of the fuel, considering I have done an engine overhaul, paint, interior, and new radios. Oh, and the fuel? Mogas in my tank at home, and I get the road tax portion of the fuel cost refunded to me, so it's cheaper than putting that fuel in a car.

The only plane which is crap, is the really poorly maintained one. All others are designed and built to serve a particular role. Pick what you want, and pay the cost, but don't complain about it!



My wife, on her bike, took the photo, on a beach in Georgia.....

[shortstripper]

Simples!

Buy a cheap single seat LAA type (VP1, FRED, ect) keep it for a year and you'll learn more and clock up the hours for a lot lot less! Maybe not so appealling to the airline pilot brigade, but hours is hours and you'd learn a lot more than just flying the same old aircraft that you did your PPL in!