Gliding areas.

[thing]

I've been for a bimble this afternoon over to Skeggy and up the coast to Mablethorpe. On turning west at Mabby I was told by the zone I was on (no names no pack drill) that I was infringing Strubby glider field's Notamed area. I was actually about a mile outside, not a lot I know but I was visual with Strubby and the gliders pootling around.

It wasn't a problem, no offense taken or anything I just headed further north but I was wondering if ATC designates a larger area to glider fields than is actually on the half mil map and GPS? And yes I'm much aware of glider fields and the dangers thereof, I'm also a glider pilot.

[chevvron]

What is it NOTAMMed as, advisory such as 'intensive gliding activity's or is it RA(T) or even CAS(T)? If not the two latter, you haven't infringed anything, and as you probably know being a glider pilot, unless local club rules dictate, there's nothing to stop a glider flying as far from base as possible in class G airspace provided the pilot has a map with him.

[thing]

It's just a glider site with 3,000' launches. Like a lot of glider sites (mine included) they fly Wednesdays as well, it's known as old duffers day. Saltby often have a semi permanent Notam on, 'intensive gliding' etc, not a competition or anything, just them doing what they do every day. I have a feeling that the nice lady on ATC was getting mixed up between Notamed and just being 'active.'

Maybe they were just being over cautious. Nothing wrong with that.

[Talkdownman]

So how can one 'infringe' unregulated Class G airspace?

[ShyTorque]

infringing Strubby glider field's Notamed area

Outside CAS or ATZ in Class G? Then it's the normal situation of "see and avoid". The term "infringe" is over-egging the pud.

[thing]

Indeed but this is Lincolnshire and therefore the land of our uniformed scopey friends, you have to make allowances for these things...:)

[ToweringCu]

You were happy that you were a mile away, and that was probably sufficient, but a mile on an ATC radar display wouldn't look like much at all.

[Someone_Else]

I wonder if infringing was the wrong term to use? I suppose this could have depended on what service where you receiving. If I am providing a radar service to a pilot then I have to provide separation from notified areas; commonly 5 miles/1000ft from the published area.

The above is a must for RCS & DC but even if you were on a Traffic Service there is still an obligation on the controller to inform you of traffic that may come into proximity with you, so therefore I would aim to keep you to my prescribed minima.

If you were pootling about on a Basic Service, I would only need to tell you the area is active, it's entirely up to you how close you would get to the boundary. Of course, this leaves you with the possibility of downgrading your service.

[Spitoon]

You were happy that you were a mile away, and that was probably sufficient, but a mile on an ATC radar display wouldn't look like much at all.One hopes that it would look like a mile!

On the point in the original post, I don't know the area so I ow to those with local knowledge, but I can't find anything NOTAMd about it today (maybe there was something yesterday?) and all I can find in the AIP is notification that winch and aero-tow gliding activity takes place up to 3000 ft at the aerodrome - no lateral limits are specified (ENR 5.5).

If there wasn't anything else notified yesterday, for a controller to talk about infringing something is a bit OTT. Maybe I'm missing something because thing mentions that he/she was a mile outside????

[thing]

If I could just make it clear I was a mile outside the area, not a mile away from the airfield. I often make the turn in at Mablethorpe and fly between Strubby and Manby glider fields because there is gas venting to 3,600 at Theddlethorpe gas terminal about a mile north of Mab and then that runs straight into Donna Nook danger area, so it's not that I like getting close to glider fields, it's just that the airspace around there is a bit clogged up. I know the area very well and had my GPS which I downloaded the log off and had a look just to check so I know exactly where I was.

It's not a big deal, I was just a little bemused that I had apparently infringed a Notamed area and wondered what the score was. As I said earlier perhaps she may have thought I didn't know about Strubby and just got her terminology wrong, and also as the above poster said maybe a mile doesn't look much on the screen. It was a basic service by the way.

[Spitoon]

thing, I understand you were a mile outside the area - I'm just not sure what area you're talking about. Is it on a chart? I haven't spent much time searching for info but it seems to me that as far as the AIP is concerned there is not notified area associated with Strubby, just a notification of gliding/launching activity from the field.

[ShyTorque]

Perhaps "entering a NOTAMed gliding area (or area of NOTAMed intense gliding activity)" might be more appropriate phraseology, rather than "Infringing", which would cause any pilot some consternation.

At the end of the day, as far as gliding activity is concerned, the whole of class G, plus some extra airspace, such as that near Dunstable downs and embedded in Luton's CTR, requires the same "see and avoid", NOTAMed or not.

BTW, anyone can put forward a NOTAM. I discovered this some years ago when I rang the contact number given on a NOTAM. The person who had put it forward was a chap flying birds of prey to and from a tethered kite. I explained that I often needed to enter the given area to gain access to a landing site. He insisted that I must now avoid "his" area by 3nm and 2000ft! The NOTAMed area for launching the kite was itself 3nm in diameter (he varied it day by day), so he reckoned he was entitled to a 6nm radius "sterile" area all to himself. I pointed out that he unfortunately had false expectations because even his local airport, operating large airliners, only had a 2.5nm ATZ to protect it.

Another kite flyer had a permanent NOTAM put on one of my regular routes, right in a choke point where airspace required us to descend to 1500 feet QNH. I rang the contact number to find out more details and the kite flyer's partner answered the phone. She told me the kite flyer was at work and she couldn't remember the last time he had been out flying his kite, it was months before.

I rang AIS to advise them of this. I was told if a NOTAM was submitted in the correct format they had no option but to publish it until it was withdrawn by the applicant.

[chevvron]

Unless the kite flying takes place from a civil licenced airfield or a military airfield, you would have to get it issued via AUS not direct with AIS.

[NorthSouth]

someone else:If I am providing a radar service to a pilot then I have to provide separation from notified areas; commonly 5 miles/1000ft from the published area.

The above is a must for RCS & DC but even if you were on a Traffic Service there is still an obligation on the controller to inform you of traffic that may come into proximity with you, so therefore I would aim to keep you to my prescribed minima.What, even if you couldn't see any radar returns in that area? How on earth would you report that to the pilot, under any service?
And what's the basis for providing 5nm/1000ft separation from notified areas, as opposed to traffic? Where's that from? I've never seen that in any document. I would not be happy to be vectored 5nm away from a NOTAMed area that I'd flight-planned to miss by a mile, because of some unwritten rule relating to what might possibly be operating inside that area even though no-one can see anything in it.
Please explain!
NS

[thing]

thing, I understand you were a mile outside the area - I'm just not sure what area you're talking about.I'm not sure what she was talking about!

Yes it is on the half mil, it's a bog standard, non Notamed glider site with cables to height 3000'. The area is the little circle that goes along with it, 1nm radius. I know it's not illegal to fly in there, it is however very ill advised unless you want your wing slicing off. We sometimes get low flyers over our glider field, nothing you can do other than wait until they are gone.

[chevvron]

Thing, if yiu were working a military unit, they were probably using different charts. On military low flying charts, glider sites are usually depicted with a 2nm avoid radius, so I suspect this may be why the controller thought you were infringing.
I used to spend a lot of time on Farnborough LARS (West) explaining to people that it wasn't a good idea to fly over Lasham below 3700ft on a clear day and still they didn't seem to take notice!

[thing]

Thanks Chevron, that's cleared that one up then!

[ShyTorque]

Maybe the controller meant to say "notified" gliding site or area, rather than "NOTAMed".

Anyway, hopefully for once we can all agree on the rules pertaining... ;)

[radarman]

thing,

I take it from your post #6 the unnamed zone was military. In which case your comments in that post hit the nail on the head. When we (civil) took over the ATC task from the RAF at this airfield we were amazed at how the military mind seems perpetually to be at war. Even the simplest 'Yawn, boring' aircraft movement was turned into an adrenalin and testosterone fuelled frenzy. And regardless of being in Class G airspace, every transitting aircraft was instructed to 'Keep clear of the area' or 'Remain clear of the approach', blind calls on 121.5 being made if the aircraft was not in R/T contact. I think the RAF see themselves as aerial traffic wardens, hence the over-enthusiastic use of the term 'Infringing'.

(Nothing against the military; I had 16 marvelous years wearing a blue suit. But then I saw the light.)

[thing]

They are indeed. I have to add our 'own' blue suit zone are always great, because they know who we are and recognise the call signs and indeed some of them fly with us. In fact I was surprised I was passed over to 'XXX' as I normally stay with my own zone whilst floating around the locality.

Doncaster are next door and the change in ethos is very striking. Not any more or less efficient, just 'different'.

[robin]

When I fly in my local area under the local LARS they often remind me that the nearby gliding club is operating and there are contacts close by.

They never say I am infringing. But they may well warn me I am within x nms of the site. As a local glider pilot I know exactly where to go and where to look and appreciate the local LARS are looking out.

[tggzzz]

thing wrote: Yes it is on the half mil, it's a bog standard, non Notamed glider site with cables to height 3000'. The area is the little circle that goes along with it, 1nm radius. I know it's not illegal to fly in there, it is however very ill advised unless you want your wing slicing off. We sometimes get low flyers over our glider field, nothing you can do other than wait until they are gone. Always presuming you notice them :(

http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=423&pagetype=90&pageid=10289

[Someone_Else]

NorthSouth

What, even if you couldn't see any radar returns in that area? How on earth would you report that to the pilot, under any service?
And what's the basis for providing 5nm/1000ft separation from notified areas, as opposed to traffic? Where's that from? I've never seen that in any document. I would not be happy to be vectored 5nm away from a NOTAMed area that I'd flight-planned to miss by a mile, because of some unwritten rule relating to what might possibly be operating inside that area even though no-one can see anything in it.
Please explain!
NS

It's in my rule book, which is in two parts. Part 1 (CAP493) you can see on the CAA website and broadly contains the minima that you would expect. Then there is part 2 which contains the rules relevant to my airspace.

The rules in guidelines in my unit specific manual have to take into consideration the priorities that I have to deal with. First and foremost my responsibility is to traffic inside controlled airspace being provided with a RCS. Where we do have areas to avoid generally our book says that Danger areas/restricted airspace have to be treated the same as if it was another aircraft. So this means 1000ft/5nm. Regardless if we see any radar return.

My point was that even in uncontrolled airspace I would consider similar minima when offering traffic or deconfliction advice. Infact, you may already know that, the deconfliction minima that we aim to provide is 3000ft/5nm if the traffic is uncoordinated or 1000/3nm if coordinated.

Coordinated would be against a specific aircraft, so if the area was a glider area (where often we can't even see a radar return) this reduced separation would not apply. If the area has an upper limit then we would provide 1000ft separation against the upper limit not aircraft flying inside the area.

If you're under a Traffic Service there are slightly different rules when we would provide traffic information.

With anything there are a few exceptions to all of this but I'm just explaining the generics of our unit. Every unit has different capabilities depending on their priorities. As I said before, if you're in uncontrolled airspace and you are not happy with the service you are receiving you can downgrade it.

To the starter of the tread; if you're on a basic service then aside from providing generic information (such as active areas) the controller should not be advising you on traffic and "The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilot’s responsibility." (CAP493, Section 1, Chap 11, Section 3).

Sorry for the long post; I hope it provides an insight. CAP774 contains the rules for Flight Information Services (CAP 774: UK Flight Information Services | Publications | CAA (http://tinyurl.com/7avpdnv)).