NEWQUAY

[globetrotter79]

If the flybe 3x daily NQY-LGW disappears and isn't replaced in any form (I still suspect we'll see EZY will at least one daily A319 year-round LGW-NQY) then I could see sense in BA operating one daily LHR-NQY with perhaps some extra Saturday & Sunday seasonal summer flights too.

Since BA seem to be happy to shovel slots onto a 3x daily LHR-LBA and are known to have "slot sitting" frequencies on some of the other domestics such as LHR-MAN I'd think that a NQY could work for them and, as already commented here, be a useful route to fling on some of those summer weekend slots that they don't see to have much of a use for on anything else..

[cornishsimon]

Totally agree globetrotter.

LHR-NQY on BA would be a dream route as it would open up Europe and the world to Cornwall.

Seems Far to sensible to me


cs

[controlx]

Putting global connectivity aside, trouble with LHR is that in practice, were you coming down to Cornwall, the time it takes from arriving at LHR to actually running down the runway, you'd be more than halfway down to Cornwall in your car, doesn't really stack up on that front. LCY would be much nicer on that front or any of the SE UK, London region 'regional' airports, a hour from downtown London.

[Skipness One Echo]

LHR-NQY on BA would be a dream route as it would open up Europe and the world to Cornwall.
Seems Far to sensible to me
Come on mate, BA tried LGW-NQY and it was flying a fuselage full of little more than fresh air most days. In my experience, Newquay was a grotty little airport with a money grabbing philosophy run by the pond life council in a region already well served by the train. It's no more likely to get a LHR link than Inverness as neither has enough high yield connecting traffic in addition to those willing to pay a massive premium to fly into WEST London. Let's be realistic, it's a pipe dream, even with three runways at LHR I bet they still wouldn't touch it. APD has made it hard enough to get mass market England-Scotland connections, an England-England connection is a pretty tough cookie and requires a substantial business community to support it. Cornwall has some major wealth but not enough industry to make it viable. I'd be more worried about NQY even being a commercial airfield in five years than a wish list of serving the most congested hub airport on Western Europe.

BA aren't going to serve it just because you happen to have a house there.

then I could see sense in BA operating one daily LHR-NQY
Do they do this with any other domestic or British Islands route? A once per day competing against the train would be mainly leisure traffic only, an utter waste of a LHR slot in the mid afternoon long haul departure period? No way.

[Aero Mad]

BA tried LGW-NQY and it was flying a fuselage full of little more than fresh air most days

Yes, but SZ was running competitively priced thrice daily services to LGW and FR to STN (once daily I believe). There will now be just a thrice weekly SEN service - hardly regular competition and on the other side of London.

Nobody ever said LBA would happen (and even if it did, never thrice daily - 'why wouldn't they just shove more frequencies on the other domestics?', came the regular protest) - yet since BE pulled out of LGW and the BM slots have been inherited it has happened.

an utter waste of a LHR slot in the mid afternoon long haul departure period

Of course I wouldn't expect anything regular or business orientated, but if BA can serve LBA, IBZ, PMI as well as the charters out of LHR then I see no reason why NQY doesn't stand a chance. Nobody ever said LCY would get its IOM route. It did, and on a Saab 2000... whoever says they saw that coming is telling a porky.

It might be unlikely but certainly not 'no way'.

[Skipness One Echo]

Of course I wouldn't expect anything regular or business orientated, but if BA can serve LBA, IBZ, PMI as well as the charters out of LHR then I see no reason why NQY doesn't stand a chance. Nobody ever said LCY would get its IOM route. It did, and on a Saab 2000... whoever says they saw that coming is telling a porky.
LCY-IOM was an existing route run for years when EuroManx built up the route well, Aer Arann continued it and only left for SEN for strategic reasons. BA / CFE just picked up someone else's market when they walked off. Whereas LBA is the overflow from MAN where BA know the existing Exec Club members in the region who use MAN as well as nicking existing traffic currently connecting with KLM.

LBA has a little under three million passengers and is borderline LHR material, currently struggling but with some hope to make it.
NQY has under 170,000! In all seriousness you'd see JER, GCI and INV well before NQY ever got a LHR link.

Apples and pears.

[Wycombe]

On my recent run to Conwall, we drove down from Berks on the Friday evening at the start of half-term week (24th May), running through Exeter at around 11pm and arriving in west Cornwall a couple of hours later.

Even past midnight, there was a fairly heavy stream of high-speed westbound traffic along the A30 into Cornwall, and it was noticeable how most of the vehicles were, shall one say, at the higher-end of the market (LR's, Jags, Beemers, Mercs etc)

How many of these vehicles were occupied by the "second-home set" on the race west from London and the home Counties for the weekend? A fair few, I bet?

Even if only 25% of them were happy to leave the car and fly to Cornwall, you could have easily filled a 319 from LHR or LGW that evening.

I also saw (on a rail users forum) that every train to Devon/Cornwall that afternoon/evening from Paddington was reserved solid, including the sleeper. All those people (an HST carries nearly 500, not including those left standing!) obviously didn't feel the need, or have the means to take a car. The quickest trains from Paddington to Penzance take 5 hours, and some a bit more.

I realise this is an example from a peak travel period, but the demand must be there for some sort of daily (at least) service to NQY once Flybe pull out.

[GROUNDHOG]

OK so I cannot reveal too much at the moment but when Flybe stop operating and IF no one else takes over the Gatwick route and IF NQY play ball something is afoot that the naysayers will say is impossible and will really make you think!

Necessity is the Mother of Invention, the "experts" told my old Company we couldn't put our 737's on GB Airways AOC and we did, they told Stelios that easyjet was not possible from Luton and Michael Fish said there wouldn't be a hurricane...

So with a little help from my friends watch this space:D

[PlymSpotter]

Looking at the situation, I would be surprised if easyJet turned down a once daily to Newquay - I can even see 8/9 weekly with an extra few services around the weekend. To me the question mark is, from which airport will it operate?

[davidjohnson6]

LBA has a little under three million passengers and is borderline LHR material, currently struggling but with some hope to make it.
NQY has under 170,000!

Going slightly off topic, but following on from your quote Skipness, you may be interested to note that Tarom have recently launched a 2x weekly service from Iasi in NE Romania to Heathrow. Iasi airport in 2012 had approx 170,000 passengers.
Then again this new route to Iasi may not last that long... !

[cornishsimon]

I get the impression that skipness doesn't care tbh ;)

For the record I never said a LHR route would ever be launched, however if one existed it would be well used both by locals and tourists and business alike.

What Cornwall/ NQY lack is connectivity. Why a LHR would bring to nqy/cornwall is connectivity. Will it be the best domestic route ex LHR no, probably the worse.

However the quoted BA LGW route as pointed out faced stiff competition from SZ who were operating frequency. The London market is give or take 100,000 pa. That's a ready made market for someone, a London route with an airline offering decent onward connectivity, thru ticketing etc would bring in many more punters, even just by making the domestic / Irish destinations available again/ available year round.

Will it happen, probably not.

Should it, yes !

BA LHR route ex NQY would open up the world and Europe to Cornwall and bring business and tourism to Cornwall.

Just my opinion, no matter how wrong I keep getting told I am.


cs

[xtypeman]

Well GroundHog this sounds very intriguing. I must admit I have had some ideas and have sounded out a few of my colleagues for their thoughts. Newquay is potentionally an ideal location. One has to consider is LoCo on its way out should we begin to look at alternatives well here is an option. The largest cargo airline in the world is not even an airline but part of an integrated transport system FedEx. Now what Newquay wants is sustainable year round services ideally connecting with London. So here is a conception. This would be suited initially to businessmen(or Women). Firstly there would have to be a survey of all Businesses in the Newquay hinterland and find out exactly where they need to travel too. Let’s take the argument for London as a destination. It may be that LHR would satisfy 50% of business and that the rest requires mainly the west of London. So you can now put into place effectively a corporate shuttle of say 12 to 14 seats and operate to an alternative airport let’s say Farnborough or Fairoaks. There would be as part of the fare an inclusive executive mini coach with phone and Wifi. One coach would serve Heathrow and others would serve the other destinations. With my idea not all the seats would be taken on each service so that there would be a limited number available to the general public again with connections to various non fixed destinations as required.Once established this could be further developed to other destinations. You could use Lydd for a connection to Ashford and EuroStar making Paris in under 4hours from Cornwall. Use Southend for connection to Easyjet services and the City. Use Coventry for the West Midlands. The idea could spread around many of our regional airports. Gloucester and Oxford are two further candidates. They would not potentionally go to London but the North West and North east Scotland and Ireland become within the scope of this conception. :D

[PlymSpotter]

David - you may as well call Iasi 'Chisinau West'. This new service is aimed at those who travel into Romania from Moldova to fly.

xtypeman - Northolt. Some interesting things happening on that front.

[xtypeman]

Thank you PlymSpotter. Yes Northolt is another option also Biggin Hill each would serve a different potential. It may be that there could be a spread of services to different airfields as required. This is what opens up this idea to regional centres around the country and the near Europe. Southampton for cruises etc Shoreham for Gatwick connections. Routes would be very much business driven not airline driven.

[GROUNDHOG]

Time for that beer xtypeman, if you remember the old trick we used from the colonies and how that worked you can see how it is all put together.... very simple, very efficient and the man in London with the fuzzy hair is giving his full support.:ok:

[controlx]

For the gentleman contemplating corporate shuttles using the likes of Biggin Hill or Farnborough, you should be aware that niether is permitted whatsoever to undertake scheduled services, or 'pay for seat' operations of any kind - whole aircraft charters, not 'airline' services.

That leaves say Cambridge, Cranfield, Oxford, of which Oxford has by far the better demographics. Forget Lydd, Manston etc., hopeless.

[GROUNDHOG]

For the Gentleman trying to teach his Grandmother to suck eggs who said anything about scheduled services or pay per seat?:rolleyes:

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Will it happen, probably not.

Should it, yes !

BA LHR route ex NQY would open up the world and Europe to Cornwall and bring business and tourism to Cornwall.

Just my opinion, no matter how wrong I keep getting told I am.


cs "

Agreed, you're not wrong, it needs to be LHR-NQY, but until and unless LHR is expanded, there isn't a hope in hell.

[SWBKCB]

For the Gentleman trying to teach his Grandmother to suck eggs who said anything about scheduled services or pay per seat?

With my idea not all the seats would be taken on each service so that there would be a limited number available to the general public

So how would you get money off the general public?

[GROUNDHOG]

Everyone flies for free..... You work it out:ok:

[Fairdealfrank]

xtypeman, your idea would work best using NHT, if it is ever going to open to small scale scheduled operations (and do NOT mean as a third LHR rwy!). Also leisure travellers should be catered for as well as business travellers.

Provided a station is provided adjacant to a NHT terminal, it could be 17 minutes to the west end (Marylebone) and a coach to LHR is just a 6 mi. ride.

PlymSpotter, what is happening at NHT?

[GROUNDHOG]

Or you could have a luxury vehicle waiting to take the passengers if they wanted to wherever they wanted to go City, Airport, Dockland ( for a fee of course)......

[Romaro]

You can't use Northolt for commercial air transport movements, not permitted. Same as Biggin and Farnborough.

[Fairdealfrank]

Indeed you can't, hence the words in my post:

"...if it is ever going to open to small scale scheduled operations..."

in reference to NHT.

[xtypeman]

Northolt and Biggen are used purely as potential examples. The system has to be thought of in a different light it may be that you overfly London but as the journey uses transport right through to the last mile eg door to door. Some of the final destinations might be other airports but more than likely an office. Yes there would be availability for the general public . As numbers increase services could need larger size aircraft but it would all be driven by demand.

[PlymSpotter]

There are a number of plans and variation of plans, the general gist being to see Northolt accept more civil traffic. This includes the possibility of scheduled services to regions of the UK which have lost their own links to LHR/LGW.

It's an interesting idea, and it has some significant backing.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "There are a number of plans and variation of plans, the general gist being to see Northolt accept more civil traffic. This includes the possibility of scheduled services to regions of the UK which have lost their own links to LHR/LGW.

It's an interesting idea, and it has some significant backing."

It's good idea to open NHT to civil traffic and it needs to happen, even if it's just a stopgap until LHR is expanded.

We have the templates: SEN, LCY.

[Heathrow Harry]

Frank - do you REALLY want the whole of London up in arms about aircraft noise?

One of the problems with LHR expansion (and LGW) is that the airline business makes promises on flight numbers to get their way and a few years later tries to expand the numbers way past the original scheme - thus no-one believes a word we say and even small improvements meet die-in-the-ditch opposition every time

[Skipness One Echo]

One of the problems with LHR expansion (and LGW) is that the airline business makes promises on flight numbers to get their way and a few years later tries to expand the numbers way past the original scheme - thus no-one believes a word we say and even small improvements meet die-in-the-ditch opposition every time
You're mixing up cause and effect. People who know what needs to be done understand that the only way most of our fellows might buy it is to lie, then allow a few years to pass. No one believes a word of it because no one wants to face the reality of a painful price required to ensure we have growth to pay our very substantial debts. The idea there is some fantastic way around this is a childlike naivety. Democracy is all "me, me, me" and very little "us".

[PlymSpotter]

You would most likely be talking props and small next-gen regional jets - more a second LCY than an expansion similar to Heathrow. That isn't going to 'affect' 5% of London, let alone the whole of it.

[TRY2FLY]

A good amount a connections through GLA just a pity about the frequency of the flights

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Frank - do you REALLY want the whole of London up in arms about aircraft noise?"

Did mention small scale at NHT (this is obvious because of the because of the proximity of LHR) and specifically not as a 3rd LHR rwy.

My words were:

"your idea would work best using NHT, if it is ever going to open to small scale scheduled operations (and do NOT mean as a third LHR rwy!)."



Quote: "You would most likely be talking props and small next-gen regional jets - more a second LCY than an expansion similar to Heathrow. That isn't going to 'affect' 5% of London, let alone the whole of it."

Exactly, this is what would be on the thin domestic routes being suggested for NHT (e.g. NHT-NQY since we're on the NQY thread). Also, suggested that SEN and LCY are the templates.

[Phileas Fogg]

When are they gonna build a train station/terminal building alongside and tarmac/extend a runway or few at White Waltham? :)

[xtypeman]

In the same vain this could potentially open up several other airfields. Yet again Redhill has had its latest Runway application turned down. But what about other airfields like Denham, Booker, Panshanger, High Weald and Stapleford to name a few. Some lateral thinking could go along way to looking at the problem of London and its airports.

[Phileas Fogg]

High Weald

North Weald? :)

[xtypeman]

Finger trouble..........

[Gulfstreamaviator]

too much time in the bar....

glf

[xtypeman]

Not me as my friends and colleagues will tell anyone. I don't drink but I am not teetotal. I do enjoy a fine wine or a cider but only in moderation......

[Heathrow Harry]

white waltham? same problem as ABZ & EDI - the train line is on the opposite side of the airfield to the bar (sorree Terminal 1 of course)

and you know Mrs H was complaining she couldn't spend a zillion on new watches, bags and clothes when we were there last week...................

[Barling Magna]

Newquay has a London link again this morning:

Mobile Video Player (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid2469585709001?bckey=AQ~~,AAABKPKaGak~,TpOrUJpAbLijc2Wjn bYga5rK3ygZxtJT&bctid=2493003827001)

[Phileas Fogg]

Again???

NQY currently has a designated London (LGW) Airport link, if SEN is London then why did they name it Southend-On-Sea and not London?

[Barling Magna]

Sorry, I meant another London link.

Why did they name it Southend not London? The same reason they named it Gatwick (or Crawley), not London (which is 27 miles to the north). :)

[GROUNDHOG]

That video - pass me a bucket, please.

Great if you want to go to Essex but Southend being described as London is a joke, its an hour by train to Central London and useless for any London Airport.

I wish easyjet every success but calling it a London service is taking the .... imagination too far!

The real London service will start when flybe are not replaced by an existing operator, wait and see.

[Barling Magna]

Well, it takes 47 minutes to travel by train from London Stansted to Liverpool Street and 53 minutes from London Southend to Liverpool Street. Does that six minutes disqualify Southend from its IATA recognised title as London Southend? It's much quicker through Arrivals at Southend than it is at Stansted, so the elapsed time from plane to Liverpool Street is less travelling via SEN than via STN.

Of the six airports recognised as London airports by IATA, only one is actually in London. Even Gatwick is 32 minutes from Victoria by train.......

[Fairdealfrank]

No one seems to mind all the various proposed estuary fantasy/vanity project options having a "London" prefix. Lydd ("London-Ashford") gets no criticism, and Oxford-Kidlington ("London-Oxford") is criticised a little.

But in the case of Southend, the knives are out big time! As stated by Barling Magna, of all the "London" airports only London City is in London (as mentioned in their current advertising campaign).

So why does Southend get all the stick about being/not being a "London" airport?

[Phileas Fogg]

The majority of international passengers route via LHR, admittedly, dependant upon the time of day, LGW is 75 minutes on the coach to/from LHR, but, according to traveline.org.uk , SEN is an average of 2 hours and 05 minutes by public transport to/from LHR.

Now allowing for arriving at SEN one hour before departure that makes any departure from SEN an average of 3 hours and 05 minutes after leaving Heathrow yet, according the the "National Express 504" timetable, in a similar timeframe one could be well on the way to Cornwall and already in Somerset or Devon as one might be departing SEN.

I've said before that SEN has a future but "London to/from the West Country" it is not, the West Country needs a London Airport on their side of town ... people don't appreciate travelling backwards before they travel forwards and vice versa.

[Skipness One Echo]

As stated by Barling Magna, of all the "London" airports only London City is in London (as mentioned in their current advertising campaign).
LHR is in London in the mind of Londoners in the sense that we see London as being the bit within the M25. City is in Newham (!)

[Phileas Fogg]

LHR is in the "London Borough of Hillingdon" but this thread is about Newquay and not about the ongoing p1ssing contest regarding the ever increasing number of London airports.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "according to traveline.org.uk , SEN is an average of 2 hours and 05 minutes by public transport to/from LHR."

Ho ho, you'll be lucky! Suppose it's theoretically possible if (1) Heathrow express is used, and (2) all connections are timed well.

As for the buses, unexpected motorway incidents make them unpredictable.

Would advise anyone contemplating such a journey to allow a lot more time, just in case, then there's no stress and anxiety.

Quote: "I've said before that SEN has a future but "London to/from the West Country" it is not, the West Country needs a London Airport on their side of town ... people don't appreciate travelling backwards before they travel forwards and vice versa."

Exactly right and that means LHR or NHT. There's no chance at LHR until it's expanded, and there's no chance at NHT until commercial air operations are allowed there. Would love to see LHR-NQY and LHR-EXT but it almost certainly won't happen in my lifetime.

Regretably, for anyone travelling between the west side of London/
Thames Valley and the West Country, it's likely to be the good old A303 or the train for a while yet. For the east side of London, SEN should be fine.

Quote: "LHR is in London in the mind of Londoners in the sense that we see London as being the bit within the M25. City is in Newham (!)"

Isn't that a bit pendantic? Can be pendandic as well: are we referring to "London" or "Greater London"? Perhaps that's why it's called "London City"(?) No one questions LCY's advertising slogan (until now).

But the original point remains sound, of all the outlying "London" airports, both existing and proposed, only Southend gets the stick!

[mikkie4]

Its nice to see that some of you are sticking up for london southend.......hears a thought how about london southend international???????got a nice ring to it

[Phileas Fogg]

"Spotters Corner" is here Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner-52/) mikkie

[LTNman]

So why does Southend get all the stick about being/not being a "London" airport?


It is probably down to perception. Everyone knows that Southend is by the seaside so is perceived to be a long way from London.

[Expressflight]

GROUNDHOG has hinted at some cunning plan to replace the NQY-LGW service when Flybe come off the route next March, but NQY to .... where? I would agree with him and others that SEN is not the ideal LON arrival airport from NQY but not because it isn't a 'real' LON airport, that argument surely being a thing of the past. Using LGW would still look the most passenger-friendly option (LHR simply not being a realistic expectation) but I rather doubt that anyone will find that very cost effective either unless EZY take it on. I suspect they have more lucrative routes in mind for their Flybe slots than a double daily NQY service.

So we're back to GROUNDHOG's 'plans' or hoping that EZY decide to try SEN-NQY on a year round basis - again something I wouldn't think very likely as they probably see it as simply a summer tourist route. Failing either of the above I reckon NQY-LON will join the list of those regional routes killed off by APD and high LON airport charges.

[GROUNDHOG]

The funny thing is that I have been retired for many years and do not want to get involved in starting another air service ( I didn't say airline?) but I along with a couple of other old timers do have a European Operating Licence at our disposal, access to aircraft and a potential investor airport to make things happen.

Given a choice I would love to see a new operator on the route but as Phileas rightly says the fear is NQY will go the way of others when Flybe leave.

Do not right off airports in London "not allowed commercial flights", sole use charters are allowed aren't they?

[Phileas Fogg]

hoping that EZY decide to try SEN-NQY on a year round basis

Devon/Cornwall needs a "puddle jumper" service, maximum 50 seats, a minimum of twice daily during the week and once daily at weekends!

EZY don't operate puddle jumpers and come the winter they'll be lucky to fill one minibus per week never mind 3!

[Expressflight]

Exactly Phileas. As I said I think EZY see SEN-NQY as a summer tourist route only and you aren't going to see any 50-seater operators queuing up to get access to LGW.

[Heathrow Harry]

FDF looks forward to LHR - Exeter - not only will t not happen in his lifetime it will never happen at all

Currently it takes 2 to 2.5 hours from Paddington by train - when Crossrail is in and the Reading direct link plus the 125 replacements will probably be somewhat faster

who is going to slog out to LHR, have to go through security, and then wait 45 -60 mins for a flight which will probably be nearly 60 mins from gate to gate where you are out miles out of Exeter?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Do not right off airports in London "not allowed commercial flights", sole use charters are allowed aren't they?"

Do you mean NHT by chance?

Quote: "FDF looks forward to LHR - Exeter - not only will t not happen in his lifetime it will never happen at all

Currently it takes 2 to 2.5 hours from Paddington by train - when Crossrail is in and the Reading direct link plus the 125 replacements will probably be somewhat faster

who is going to slog out to LHR, have to go through security, and then wait 45 -60 mins for a flight which will probably be nearly 60 mins from gate to gate where you are out miles out of Exeter?"

You are almost certainly right, Heathrow Harry, but bear in mind that the crossrail will not go to/from Reading, so another change at Maidenhead will be needed after a stretch on a local train.

It would make sense for Reading to be the western end of crossrail, why do planners ignore the huge Reading interchange? Yet another example of an allergy to common sense?

If long distance trains are eventually routed through LHR-5 and LHR-1/2/3 (on a Langley-LHR-5 spur and then on Heathrow Express tracks to airport junction), and the Great Western is electrified as far west as Exeter it could become a very fast journey.

The former is unlikely, and the inability to change (to/from a long distance train) at Hayes will probably remain. The latter is only planned as far as Newbury, and it's doubtful that bi-mode trains would be used.

For connecting pax using rail, it's a lot of lugging baggage around: change at Reading for local train, then onto crossrail at Maidenhead, then again at Heathrow. Might be easier to check in bags at EXT through to final destination and vice versa. BTW EXT is only about 3 mi. from Exeter.

But, as mentioned earlier, it won't happen.

[silverstreak]

Possible scope for Loganair to operate EDI - NQY, then onto SEN, returning the opposite direction using the Saab 340 or Do328. Rosyth is getting busier with the aircraft carrier work - being managed more and more by Babcock out of Plymouth.

Maybe even bmi regional with an Embraer...

[cornishsimon]

Doesn't flybe already operate seasonally EDI-NQY on the Q400 ?


cs

[GROUNDHOG]

Thinking out loud...

The loss of the LGW service may most effect those on the Isles of Scilly, no longer a helicopter link and Lands End in the middle of nowhere, Plymouth gone, Newquay was the only way left to reach London or an International Airport with anything like a comprehensive list of destinations. Secondly why would Flybe want to run LGW through the low season and just lose more money on a route that is being chopped anyway, why not just drop it at the end of the Summer or restrict the frequency even further and save a few bob?

Or is there a deal where someone else will pick it up that is why they want the continuity.....?

[WOWBOY]

I honestly think the London gatwick service will be taken over by easyjet. They are definitely in discussions with newquay airport in regards to taking on the route, or at least that's the impression I got.

[GROUNDHOG]

That'll be a definite impression that you are under then WOWBOY! I hope you are right!

[Phileas Fogg]

I honestly think the London gatwick service will be taken over by easyjet

An operator, to serve the route successfully, shall need to service the route twice daily five and two half days per week.

There ain't no way that a medium jet operator could even consider filling that many seats 12 times per week ... Back to the drawing board!

[Artic Monkey]

EasyJet are interested in doing the Gatwick route if Cornwall County Council drop the ADF. I'm not sure if that's summer only or what frequency.

[GROUNDHOG]

Phileas is quite right this route must have frequency and that will only be on something small.... and something small will not get in to Gatwick.... hang on we have been here before haven't we.

[cornishsimon]

I'm curious......

Where have U2 stated that they want to do NQY-LGW ?

I know that have spoken out in the last week about the development charge but had not heard this before ?


cs

[TRY2FLY]

Loganair from EDI is very doubtful when they are already operating from GLA

[Wycombe]

Looks like NQY have picked-up Balkan Holidays as a new operator with a couple of flights to Bourgas in Spring and Autumn 2014.....

http://www.balkanholidays.co.uk/travel_news/new-uk-departure-airports-for-2014.html

Every little helps.

[cornishsimon]

Uv got to love NQY.......

Email received today, Manchester route operates all year round, 7 days a week etc, perhaps that forgot to tell BE about the winter increase ??!


cs

[cornishsimon]

Via the NQY Facebook page.
Weekly BRN & SZG from 21st December.

More to follow next week


cs

[cornishsimon]

Provisional caa stats are out, looks like strong number on NQY-LGW & MAN

LPL & SEN look better than I thought they would with over 2000 per route, considering both route only runs three weekly isn't bad.

NQY-LGW actually carried 2000 more than LGW-NCL



cs

[Heathrow Harry]

BBC News - Runway improvements to get underway (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23726215)


Resurfacing work is set to go ahead on two of the four grass runways at Land's End Airport.


It comes after the company that provides air and sea links to the Isles Of Scilly reported a big rise in pre-tax profits.The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company said its turnover increased by 7.2% last year.



The figures were boosted by more passengers using Skybus after helicopter services ended in October.



Andrew May, the chairman of the company, said: "Our strong cash position means we will continue to invest in strengthening the route, including plans to resurface two of the four grass runways at Land's End Airport this calendar year."


Following a number of delays owing to waterlogged ground, the company now intends to surface to the runways with tar macadam.


It has also spent £2m on upgrading its Scillonian passenger ship and work on freight vessels Gry Maritha and Lyonesse Lady to extend their life until at least 2018.
It also completed a £1m terminal building at Land's End Airport.
The company added it had created 50 new jobs, including pilots, engineers, fire crew and customer service staff, increasing its total workforce to more than 200.
The company said it would continue to invest in strengthening the route.
Daily flights by British International Helicopters to the Isles of Scilly ended in October with the company citing rising costs and falling passenger numbers as the reason.

[Barling Magna]

SEN-NQY approaching 60% load factor; not bad for a new route, but it is the height of the summer. It would need a twice daily service to really prove whether the route is a viable London alternative, but would obviously only appeal to those for whom London is their final destination.

[GROUNDHOG]

It is indeed the height of the Summer, thousands of Germans arriving by cruise ship and caravanners, campers etc none of whom will ever use a flight, but, yes the peak even for a route like SEN. Load factor is irrelevant unless you know the yield per seat so who can say but I question long term is it really viable?

Who will put money on Flybe finishing early as Winter draws on or at very least cutting services to London?

[xtypeman]

Flybe have to be very careful on reducing any of its services at LGW. They have to protect the slots for Easyjet or lose a lot of cash. To retain the grandfather rights they have to operate at least 81% of slots. Its the same for the GCI routes. They maybe making losses but overall it would be even greater if they don't operate.

[GROUNDHOG]

Well you live and learn, I was not aware of that! :ok:

[xtypeman]

Its just cos I have been doing slots for quite a few years....... EU regulation 95/93 and amendment's as they apply. The only time this was suspended was post 9/11 for a year.

[cornishsimon]

Some Germans do arrive via NQY as there is still the LH DUS service which I'm convinced would be well used if made 3 or 4 weekly just down to the number of Germans you bump into in our lovely duchy on a daily basis.


cs

[GROUNDHOG]

I am informed the big rise from the Fatherland is because there is a TV programme showing over there which is set in Cornwall ( no idea which one) it is hugely popular and hence the interest?

[yeo valley]

could it be doc martin.???

[cornishsimon]

Rosamunde Pilcher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosamunde_Pilcher)

Filmed in Cornwall and shown in Germany, does wonders for tourism

cs

[chaps2011]

Cornishsimon always plenty of German cars when I`m down there also

Chaps

[Phileas Fogg]

Nationality Cornish

Now that's a funny one, whoever writes this Wiki nonsense? :)

[GROUNDHOG]

There were about half a dozen D, NL,F plated cars parked along the seafront at Falmouth this morning, for a Sunday middle of the season it still seems quiet to me though although at Lizard and Kynance two days ago it was packed.

Problem for NQY airport though is that as has been said before most are driving, cruise ships etc and whilst there is going to always be some increase and demand for German flights it is never going to be enough to maintain a long season. In two weeks it will all be over and just the Saga louts will be here by the coach load!

[cornishsimon]

Thomson 787 in again today.


cs

[GROUNDHOG]

Slightly off topic went in the Classic museum today, very impressed, has the makings of something really good..lots of people there so just what the airport needs....across the road in a car park are a large number of LR Defenders all on civilian registrations ( mostly 58 plates), anyone know who owns them or what they are about please I would be interested in buying half a dozen?

[Non Emmett]

Also slightly off topic, I fully endorse Groundhog's comments on Classic Air Force who have VC10 ZA148 "Guy Gibson" due to arrive next week to join the collection. It's good to see something at the airfield seemingly proceeding well.

Cornwall Council who have so far had to reduce their budget by £170 million overall will have to cut a further £100 million by 2018 and it seems unlikely things will get much easier for the airport over the next few years .

[Rubber Duck]

Ski charters to Berne & Salzburg announced today. Weekly Saturday departures from 21/12.

[cornishsimon]

To be operated by SkyWork Airlines, no word yet if this will operate as one flight and continue from one to another or if its two separate flights.

Also no word yet if its operating on the Q400 or most likely on the D328


cs

[Rubber Duck]

CS, 2 flights using Q400 apparently

[MADTASS]

They may have to Operate 81% of there Slots to Protect them, but i"m not sure whether they have to involve Newquay in that, in otherwords, can they not use the Slot for another destination.

[xtypeman]

MADTASS yes they could use the slots for another destination but in Flybe case there would be no sense in moving to another destination. The only other option is to use a light twin from EXT just to hold the slots at LGW. Flybe have done that before. BA have also done it using an A319 to and fro from CWL for a LHR slot pair.

[BCALBOY]

It was BMED who operated LHR/CWL not BA and it was an A321.

[cornishsimon]

BCALBOY is correct
BMED not BA.

Widely reported at the time as ghost flights or some such.


cs

[Keyvon]

NQY will see UK's first ever charter flight to Reggio Calabria (Italy) operating Apr-May 2014. Carrier is still unknown though.
These packages will be offered by Peponi Tours and Newell's Travel.

[cornishsimon]

44 passengers on the evening LGW-NQY

BBC News - Flybe plane lands at Newquay Airport after engine fluid leak (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-23955510)


cs

[Wycombe]

Flybe's initial Summer '14 timetable suggests that flights from EDI, BHD and NWI will return next Summer.

No mention of NCL or GLA.

All of the above could change of course.

....and still no mention as to whether they (or EZY, or anyone else!) will serve NQY from anywhere in the London area after the end of March :-(

[cornishsimon]

At least MAN goes back to daily for summer 14.


cs

[Wycombe]

Since posting earlier, I have noticed the following comment from the Airport on their "F a c e b o o k" page:

We are currently working to replace the current Flybe schedule with another airline who will operate flights to London Gatwick (from April next year). Discussions are still taking place and once we have a final deal we will make a formal announcement. We are hoping to be able to do this in the next month or so.

[Wycombe]

Deal not done yet, but may be getting closer according to the Beeb:

BBC News - Easyjet 'to keep Newquay-Gatwick flights' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-24057837)

[cornishsimon]

It's a start but at once daily it's not exactly ideal to replace the current three daily !

Remember that the current offering was 7 daily until SZ shut down!


cs

[Heathrow Harry]

count your blessings - there is no way Newquay could support 7 flights a day

[Curious Pax]

using 737s eh? The Beeb chap should have done a bit more googling......

[cornishsimon]

Sounds like more good news

BBC News - Drones to fly out of Newquay testing site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-24039036)


cs

[NorthSouth]

3000m runway an advantage? Irrelevant for drones, so this must mean they anticipate drones being flown in on board large cargo aircraft. But when they actually start flying drones it'll mean banning all other aircraft movements for miles around. And if the big attraction is proximity to the D064 complex, that's about 20nm away from Newquay, currently used for air combat manoeuvring and normally only available above 10,000ft (occasionally 5000). If they're going to use that they'll have to add a huge swathe of airspace below that and between it and Newquay to accommodate the drones. Then the next thing'll be they'll want to fly the drones between Newquay and Aberporth - more big swathes of prohibited airspace.
NS

[trafficnotsighted]

Have Easyjet signed the deal yet for the Gatwick flights. If its not been done I bet they are holding out to the last minute, hoping to get a subsidy for the first six months or so. Watch this space, they will get it and then do a runner at the end of it and use the Gatwick slots for profitable routes. Newquay is a dead duck without a London route at least twice a day at times that suits the business community. The region was better served when it was RAF run.

[Jamesair]

NCL is in the Flybe timetable for next summer, starting in May 14. Saturdays, same as this year.

[ajamieson]

Trafficnotsighted is absolutely spot on. NQY is not sustainable as a daily mainline aircraft route - barely even in summer - and Easyjet will cut and run as soon as any public subsidy runs out. For an earlier example of how this works, see bmi on LHR-JER circa 2007.

A once-daily service would also mean reliance on good timings for business travellers. I wouldn't be betting on the timings being any good for NQY.

[nonemmet]

NQY is not sustainable as a daily mainline aircraft route

Totally agree. I've said it before, CCC should build houses on NQY and use the money to build a smaller more efficient airport in a more commercially viable location.

[Air Hop]

Why cannot work be done to have a share with EXT on some routes. Surely a shared flight would give greater opportunites to samller / regional types with a market to suit?

[Phileas Fogg]

You're only suggesting EXT because PLH is no more, routes were shared between NQY and PLH and they failed.

One difference between EXT and PLH, indeed EXT and NQY, is that EXT has the M5 and the A303!

[Wycombe]

....and EXT is at the end of the relatively fast bit of the rail network, before it creeps at 70mph (max) around all those very scenic coasts and hills in Devon and Cornwall. NQY is at the end of a 40mph branch line!

Phileas, I think you'll find that the A303 runs out a fair bit E of EXT! It's the A30 that goes past the Airport.

[trafficnotsighted]

Routes shared between NQY and PLH did not fail. The development company that owned PLH and Airsouthwest ensured that the operation of them did not show they were making money (whilst Plymouth City Council turned a blind eye),so they could close them down and apply to develop the PLH site. Which they are still waiting for permission to do.

[oapilot]

One difference between EXT and PLH, indeed EXT and NQY, is that EXT has the M5 and the A303!

Which means that those folk around E. Devon have the excellent choice of flights available from a variety of airlines operating out of Bristol, as well as the rail link.

Plymouth and Newquay pax have the choice of what's left out of Newquay, or Exeter, neither of which are much use to anyone once Flybe ditch LGW....

[TSR2]

The development company that owned PLH and Airsouthwest ensured that the operation of them did not show they were making money (whilst Plymouth City Council turned a blind eye)

Do you know this as fact, or is it just your take on the situation.

[trafficnotsighted]

It is not a case of knowing it for a fact, it is a case of being there and watching it happen. I doubt the truth will ever come out ,but there are enough of us who were involved with ASW or PLH that watched business opportunities turned down or services priced to put customers off, especially during the last couple of years. This to ensure the ultimate goal of invoking the clause in the lease to be able to shut PLH.

[Phileas Fogg]

TrafficNotSighted,

The NQY/PLH London route was supposed to be combined for just one season, the winter of 1982/1983 if I recall correctly, following the retirement of Brymon's HPR7 and until the arrival of their 4th DHC7 ... Which never arrived.

Brymon, during the Bill Bryce days, had no financial alternative but to continue with combined services or to cancel one route or the other due to lack of finances but once BA moved in, and ASW after BA became a lesson of "How to p1ss the punters off in one easy lesson".

So please don't preach to me that the combined routes didn't fail and it was, to the effect, sabotage by Sutton Holdings that caused them to fail, Sutton/ASW, and BA before them, did sabotage the routes by keeping them combined and without good reason ... except a beancounters reason!

[Wycombe]

Was thinking about the "keep the LGW route going" situation.

When EZY started ops at NQY earlier this year, they made vague statements about the possibility of sun routes out of NQY at some point, which I appreciate would be dependant upon many factors lining up in a positive fashion.

I was wondering if they could do this with a single a/c, that operates LGW-NQY morning and evening, and then flies "W's" to the likes of AGP, ALC, PMI etc during the day.

RYR had previously managed to make these sort of routes work (albeit operated from their Med. bases), to an extent, although their price point might have been a bit different to what EZY would like to set.

Thoughts?

[GROUNDHOG]

One of the difficulties would be that around one in five of the Cornish population is directly involved in tourism and many more rely on tourists to support their shops and businesses, they cannot usually take holidays in the summer months.

The economy is one of the poorest in the UK and has a GDP of just 62%
of the national average and whilst things are changing thanks to EU grants in part, in general most Cornish folk will holiday more modestly than take longer haul. ALC, AGP,PMI etc are not really winter sun destinations so unlikely to attract much support.

Against this background I doubt there is sufficient support to run 'sun' destinations from NQY in any volume since we also have Exeter just up the road.

I have doubts even mighty easyjet will have a once a day service that lasts very long but then we go back to the old catch 22 situation. You need frequency, smaller aircraft.... and somewhere to land them in London to make that viable.

Finally on the subject of ASW and its deliberate destruction by SHH, that is not the impression I got, I am sure the board would wanted millions in contribution from its airline but that was not happening.

I am waiting until the dust settles before my next move?

[Wycombe]

Leaving aside the inaccurate BBC reporting (which seems to imply that EZY already operate between LGW and NQY), what they are reporting is as follows:

BBC News - Newquay-Gatwick flights to end says Easyjet (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-24349088)

[srobarts]

Not sure I was surprised that Easyjet will not keep Newquay Gatwick going but saddened for this region.
BBC News - Newquay-Gatwick flights to end says Easyjet (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-24349088)

[GROUNDHOG]

Well documented her a single A319 a day would never be viable so no surprise really, the airport claim they are still talking to more than one other company but the bottom line doesn't change. The only way the route is viable is with low capacity units and higher frequency and that is not going to happen at Gatwick!

[Non Emmett]

With nearly 100000 passengers using the Newquay -Gatwick route in 2012 and traffic having dropped for each of the last five years at the airport what is the likely future for the airport now that Easy jet have indicated they will not be taking on the route ? I recall using the Newquay -Heathrow service in its first week of operation back in the 1970s. It's a service which has assumed greater importance to Cornwall over the decades. The Southend route will hopefully just manage to keep the airport going for now but annual losses of three million pounds a year seem set to continue it seems to me.

Spend a few days or more in the southeast of England and it soon becomes all too apparent how far behind in economic terms Cornwall sadly is.

A bottomless pit or am I being too pessimistic ?

[GROUNDHOG]

I wouldn't be relying on Southend to keep the airport going myself, Newquay Airport needs something much more permanent than relying on the whims of easyjet, ryanair etc and if that cannot be done fetch the bricks and mortar and build a theme park.

[Barling Magna]

The Southend route is a leisure route for the good folk of Essex and the East End of London. It could become a useful route to London for the Cornish, but this would require a lot of said Cornish businessmen to turn up in suits and use the service next July and August........

[devonish]

A sad day for Nqy, but what other airlines are being talked to?? None fit what is needed at Nqy, newquay was only viable when the RAF were running the airfield and supplying most services, the airport management are delusional if they think they are a big player and with lands end having hard runways fitted, times could be even tougher. At the end of the day not enough people are using the airport

[GROUNDHOG]

Southend is useless as a business route to London, no frequency and nowhere near London!

[globetrotter79]

Inevitably going over old ground somewhat, but I guess the most likely options now are likely to be:

Flybe NQY-LTN
BA Cityflyer NQY-LCY

[mikkie4]

Neither is LONDON LUTON OR LONDON STANSTED.LONDON GATWICK OR LONDON HEATHROW

[Boeing737-8]

London heathrow - no slots
London gatwick - no airlines
London stansted - possible
London luton. - possible
Southend. - not really a london airport but easyjet could increase flights

[GROUNDHOG]

No Mikkie they aren't but it takes around an hour from Southend to London by train having just flown over it. Add that to at least an hour check in, transit times, waiting times, flight times and I could have got on the train with a choice of departures every 20 minutes or so.

My main reason for catching the flight to LGW has been to connect to other flights especially long haul and that isn't an option from Southend now is it?

[Barling Magna]

Southend is clearly not a replacement for LGW; no interlining possible. It COULD though serve as a London destination for the Cornish businessperson who needs to visit the capital; EZY's A319 service to SEN takes only a few minutes longer than FlyBE's Dash 8 to LGW. The direct rail line from SEN gets you into Liverpool St in 53 minutes. Transit times through the efficient new terminal at SEN are minimal, so that saves a few minutes. It's certainly not LGW, or LHR, or LTN, but it is about all NQY is likely to get in the London area and it can compete with the often unsatisfactory and expensive train service. At least you get a seat on an A319, you don't always on an HST....

[Phileas Fogg]

Boing 737-8

Southend. - not really a london airport

And neither is Luton!!!

[cornishsimon]

What NQY needs: alliance airline(s) operating to a hub, eg BA to LON, LH to DUS/FRA or AF/KLM to PAR or AMS

What NQY will get: some seasonal low cost routes.



cs

[LTNman]

Southend. - not really a london airport

And neither is Luton!!!

Would you like to repeat that comment on the Luton thread?

[Boeing737-8]

Luton is nearest to london compare to stansted and gatwick

[Phileas Fogg]

Would you like to repeat that comment on the Luton thread?

Not really, I've got better things to do :)

[Cyrano]

What NQY needs: alliance airline(s) operating to a hub, eg BA to LON, LH to DUS/FRA or AF/KLM to PAR or AMS

What NQY will get: some seasonal low cost routes.
cs

What airlines need from a hub route: sustained year-round demand, with a high proportion of high-yield business passengers, and a large number of passengers connecting elsewhere on the network.

What airlines get from NQY: seasonal leisure traffic at not particularly high yields.

Hmm. One of these things is not like the other. Sorry.

[Expressflight]

Have any of the recent posters actually carried out a analysis of travel times to various point in London from each of the LON airports?

I was asked to do so a year ago and I can offer just one result of that analysis here, with the kind permission of the commissioning body. This is overall train/tube travel to four main tourist/business districts of London based on total travel time from baggage carousel to these destinations combined. They take no account of the relative time taken from touchdown to reaching the carousel. I suspect such an analysis carried out today would reflect slightly better on SEN in that respect.

The percentage travel times relative to SEN are:

LTN 100%
STN 98%
LHR 91%
LGW 87%
LCY 58%

Draw what conclusions you may from these figures, but at least those conclusions will be based on something other than guesswork or wishful thinking in some cases.

My apologies for taking this thread even further off topic.

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

Being so pro-Southend you are missing the point that GROUNDHOG makes and indeed I have made in the past.

The west country needs a west London airport, failing that, bearing in mind that NQY is to the south-west, then a south London airport, failing both of those then an airport to the north of London, failing all three of those then to the north-east of London and the last thing the west country needs is an airport east of London.

Never mind travelling time once one gets on the ground, what's the route distance NQY/LHR, NQY/LGW, even NQY/LTN compared to NQY/SEN then there is the mental thing "we just passed LHR 20 minutes ago and now we have to go all the way back again".

SEN has it's markets but the west country ain't one of them, in this scenario MAN makes for a better London alternative than SEN!

[GROUNDHOG]

Phileas is of course quite right about the aversion to backtracking when taking any route. Go way back to the 60's and 70's and even then it was pretty hard to get anyone to book a flight which involved going over the same ground twice. Possibly no logical reason but it is none the less a major factor to account for when you understand the business.

When comparing the train with flying you must also consider the geography of Cornwall and the major conurbations. Look at the location of Newquay in relation to say Penzance where the train terminates. You would need an extra hour to get to Newquay before you start if you live that far West. I am relatively near to Newquay ( even nearer to Culdrose) but a taxi driver will say 45 minutes to reach the airport but I can be at Truro Station in 10 minutes - so it isn't that simple.

Flexibility is so important especially if you do not wish to night stop, one rotation a day does not allow the possibility of flying up for a meeting and returning the same day, in that case what is the advantage of flying over surface transport?

There is a solution as I have said earlier, I have already muted it to the right people but it would involve a lot of co operation and in the end is insufficient to prove whether or not Newquay Airport is viable in the long term. That is the bottom line of this thread surely.

[Expressflight]

Phileas

With the greatest respect I'm not missing the point at all. Other than that first line of your latest post I agree with everything you say.

I don't believe that SEN is a natural choice airport for a NQY-LON service and have never suggested otherwise. In showing the relative train travel times to LON from each airport I was merely trying to be helpful in illustrating that quotes such as "Southend - not really a london airport" and "And Luton is neither!" are not to be taken seriously. Mind you perhaps they were intended to be rather tongue in cheek remarks anyway.

[davidjohnson6]

Let us suppose for a moment that the London-Newquay route (ignoring Southend) is left vacant. What ramifications would this have ? Would the county Govt sustain the losses ? Any kind of appeal to Westminster / EU Category 1 ?

How do places like the far west of Wales (beyond Swansea / Llandudno) survive being so disconnected from London ?

[Phileas Fogg]

Expressflight,

Yes, I could quite see the "Bedfordshire Hill Mob" getting their twopenny worth in having yet another kick at SEN at yet, what they see as, another opportunity and I could observe you defending that.

I've been an admirer of SEN since, when back in the day, "we" at Air UK might lob a number of Fokkers, not to mention Sheds, in to SEN of an evening when pretty much all else was fogged out.

Just the other day, in these threads, the CWL Reggie Spotters saw their opportunity to have yet another kick at BRS, much alike LTN kicking SEN, don't these guys have other things to do, don't they have wives or girlfriends? :)

Right, off to better things, last week my resort enjoyed an occupancy rate of 97% during the annual surfing competition ... it was frigging madness, tonight just a mere 63% and it's lovely :)

[Phileas Fogg]

DJ6,

But it won't be left vacant, much alike Brighton City Airways and/or the Fokkers of Kidlington, someone, somewhere, shall be waiting in the wings with the "puddle jumper", twice/thrice daily, service that NQY merits.

Such operators cannot possibly compete with LoCo's such as EZY so they'll just be sitting there, waiting, for said LoCo(s) to b*gger off and then they're likely to come out making their route announcements

[Skipness One Echo]

Such operators cannot possibly compete with LoCo's
Who are they? Where do they fly to? I think we're doing an Air Southwest all over again. Formed to make sure the airport survived....

I think LCY, LGW and clearly LHR are not likely or even viable anymore, which leaves leisure to LTN, STN or SEN. None are likely to be much use beyond summer leisure.

[Phileas Fogg]

S1E,

Not to show my age but around the time you were born I was working with the PLH & NQY operator & airline and I learned just a tad of what the local market requires ... and it ain't a LoCo with a bright orange jet!

But ... I am one to listen to the voice of experience so I hand over to GROUNDHOG who was involved in NQY operations whilst it's likely that I was still wearing short trousers.

[Skipness One Echo]

and I learned just a tad of what the local market requires ... and it ain't a LoCo with a bright orange jet!
Absolutely agree, a Cornish Loganair if you will. My problem is that operating to London is problematic, LHR is full, LGW is prohibitively expensive as I believe would any second attempt at LCY. That leaves loco focussed airports on the wrong side of London. Logan survives on local experience, some taxpayer subsidy and relatively high fares. One cannot catch a train from Glasgow to many of their destinations though. At this point I can't see who would make money operating to a London airport at a schedule NQY needs.

[Wycombe]

Can't help thinking that if there was Rwy3 at LHR or Rwy2 or LGW this could all be so different, as there might be capacity to allow these "lifeline" services to operate, but I also appreciate there would need to be a set of financial circumstances that could ensure viability (eg, Govt could make it a condition of development permission)

But, this is the UK, where politicians continually kick these difficult subjects into the long grass, and leave it as a problem for the next regime.

Meanwhile, the good business folk trying to improve the economic lot of the SW are left with useless connectivity (and I mean trains as well as aeroplanes) due to centuries of underinvestment, dithering and pandering to Nimby's.

Glad I got that off my chest!

[srobarts]

Just a long shot suggestion. Skybus I seem to recall operate a St Mary's - Southampton service in the summer. A year round service St Mary's- Newquay- Southampton might provide both the Scillies and Newquay with a service that connects with a fast London rail connection. As a past habitant of Hampshire, I found the airport and rail connection far less hassle than some of the alternatives.

[Stampe]

I used the SOU - IOS service a few times satisfactorily.Southampton offers a 1 hour 12 minute train service to central London and from an Air traffic point of view saves a relatively slow moving aircraft getting caught up in the complications and delays of the London area airports elaborate arrival procedures.My wife did not enjoy the delights of the Twin Otter on what seemed quite a long flight.The fare was very substantial too!! VBR Stampe

[devonish]

Well done Nqy, no gatwick route, so what do you do double the APD

[srobarts]

devonish, do you mean APD, set by the govt or Airport Development Fee (ADF)? I have not seen any mention of rise - can you link to an announcement?
Incidentally the twotter I think is exempt from APD as according the spec it is under 5.7 tonnes.

[globetrotter79]

No formal announcement made, just comments by Cornwall Council (unrelated to the ongoings on the London route) that due to Council budget cuts as part of a raft of other measures they may be forced to double the ADF at NQY.

[GROUNDHOG]

Hey Phileas I bet you are still in short trousers out there in the tropics, not that I am jealous of course as I sit here in my rocking chair waiting for the nursing home to call. No less than 43 years ago that I sent my first Islander westward to Newquay and it still feels like yesterday.

OK so please bear with me on this but once and for all here is my understanding based on those 43 years.

There are two distinct problems. The survival of Newquay as an airport and the survival of the London air service. Neither is absolutely dependent on the other.

Newquay Airport
I have said this so many times that it is now getting boring, the airport will only have a future by building its non scheduled infrastructure and so far the powers that be seem to be having a good crack at that, maintenance company, parting out, museum, put a swimming pool and a ski slope in one of the hangars but whatever brings in long term money is more grist to the mill.

If that still does not cover costs then it has to be sold or close, I don't want my council tax continuing to go down the drain.

Air service to London
srobarts 'long shot' is actually not so long and could be one option. Yes laugh at the Twin Otter but in recent years I have flown more on Twin Otters in Canada than anything else, for a route like Newquay to London ( whichever airport) they are not a bad option. Skybus is the one airline that could if the management were willing provide an answer. The big problem is the fare that would have to be charged, traditionally the first class rail fare has always been the target. Could that level cover the costs?

As so many have said the 100 plus seat jets are not for a route like this so what other options are there?

Southampton - yes?
Brighton City - possibly?
Biggin Hill - no 'fare paying flights' .....so here is today's long shot. Fly passengers to Biggin Hill for free, it is a stones throw from the City and not far from LGW. How about Biggin, Newquay (or), St Mary's, that would help our friends in the Isles of Scilly somewhat!!

Of course flying the passengers for free they will also expect to be picked up from home and delivered to wherever they are going, like Virgin Upper Class and after all why not? Least they can expect when paying. nothing Naturally a charge will apply to the car element of the journey..... a little above the first class train fare should suffice.

Also to qualify this will be a members only club, much like the Trowbridge Cage Bird Society or Left Handed Club ( some will be old enough to remember).

All quite legal, if anyone fancies giving it a crack just let me know.....

Allow me to finish on a quote from Sir Stelios to me when he started easyjet " Of course ....., you know all the 'experts' said this would never work".

I rest my case.Senility is just round the corner according to Phileas!!

[Phileas Fogg]

Morning GROUNDHOG,

Yep, sitting here in my short trousers just brewing the coffee whilst greeting our guests in this little holiday haven and the weather is, just by way of a change, just fine.

All I can suggest is that many years ago Air UK had a Bandit operation EXT/SOU/AMS/SOU/EXT so perhaps NQY/SOU/AMS/SOU/NQY might work, a 15 minute (ish) transit in SOU in each direction for those travelling to/from London and onwards to/from AMS for those connecting internationally.

BUT ... Air UK had a codeshare with KLM and a KLM codeshare would need to be a "must" for such an operation to work and it would need to be a speedier and more comfortable aircraft that a 150kt fixed undercarriage Twotter!

A Shoreham operation would last about as long as Brighton City Airways, what with restricted runway dimensions, b*gger all navigational aids and p1ss poor public transport connections.

Alas Biggin wouldn't work either, I doubt Biggin would even want to risk upsetting Bromley Council and/or ending up in court for clearly bucking the system.

[Wycombe]

.....Flybe already codeshare with KLM on SOU-AMS.

Must admit hadn't thought of the SOU angle. A Q400 SOU-NQY would probably be, what, 45 mins, and as those of us who use it know, you can be off a flight and onto a train or into the car in 15 mins at SOU.

Flybe almost launched the route a few years ago (using their inherited 145's), it was put on sale, then dropped before the operation started. However, at the time ASW were still operating their fairly high frequency schedule from LGW, and RYR were operating 738's twice a day from STN. All that competition is now gone (during the winter anyway).

SOU of course offers many other connections on the Flybe network....domestic trunk routes, Channel Islands, Regional France, Spain etc.

[cornishsimon]

SOU might well work for connections with flybe, just as MAN seems to sustain a daily Q400 during the season.

In other news today, it's reported on local radio that CCC are looking to double the £5.00 ADF next year as part of plans to save money !!!


cs

[Phileas Fogg]

I think the LGW route has demonstrated that a Q400 is too large an aircraft for NQY, what is needed is a thirty something seater or few.

[GROUNDHOG]

And of course there was the British United 'silver arrow' service to Le Touquet via Southampton ...... agree entirely anything on NQY/SOU would have to be small. Skybus probably best placed to do it, problem is at what price to make it profitable.

IoS steamship company have a lovely little business in Skybus, sole operator to an airport they own, absolutely no competition and at whatever price they like. Why change that with a risky route?

Only time will tell but things are looking like the weather down here at the moment, a bit on the bleak side!

As to raising the development fee, utter madness! So for a family of four on one of the 'let's try Newquay' charters to Turkey or Bulgaria has to pay an extra £40 before they start - that gives a real incentive doesn't it.

[Wycombe]

agree entirely anything on NQY/SOU would have to be small

Logie Dornier (op. for Flybe as per the NWI-MAN operation) or Saab perhaps?

[Phileas Fogg]

Brymon Airways started a route to London Heathrow many years ago

Oh no they didn't, Brymon took over the route and an HPR7 from British Midland Airways and GROUNDHOG might be able to shed some light on a LHR operator or few before British Midland.

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1053908M.jpg


Type:
Handley Page HPR.7 Herald 214

Owner / Operator:
British Midland Airways (BD / BMA)

Location:
RAF St Mawgan / Newquay (NQY / EGDG), UK - England

Date:
1974

[Barling Magna]

Ah, days gone by.... so, delving into my reference books reveals that in April 1963 British Westpoint Airlines opened the London link and flew DC-3s from Newquay to Heathrow, via Exeter. British Eagle took over the route in the mid-60s, at one time using BAC One-Elevens. Following British Eagle's collapse in 1968 Dan-Air moved in with Dakotas and Ambassadors. British Midland took over the licence in the early 1970s and flew Viscounts as well as Heralds ont he route.

[Phileas Fogg]

Barling Magna,

I think you'll find GROUNDHOG knows better than your reference books :)

[Barling Magna]

Ha! He probably wrote them.....

[GROUNDHOG]

Whoever wrote the book is partly right, I was station manager Gatwick at that time (1969-70) with Westward Airways, I know exactly what went on. I go back to 1965 at Gatwick so remember the flights mentioned. The route was even flown by Southend Air Taxis for a few weeks, the reference books will tell you it was a Chieftain but in fact it was on a Cessna 272, Westward flew LGW/LHR/PLH/NQY/ISC, twice a day on the 'long haul' and four times LGW/LHR. It was so bad in the end we told the passengers the aircraft was tech and put them in a taxi at our costs so we did not have to fly with only one or two on board.

Back to NQY and EGHQ's post

So much I agree with there, but a couple of things I do not.I do not believe that NQY airport is vital to the future of the Cornish economy. I would rather the Council spent £3million a year more constructively to develop the infrastructure here. If the airport cannot pay its way under the Council sell it to someone who can make it pay or close it.

Connecting over other points makes complete sense, but, no one is going to fly from Newquay to say Dublin to catch Ryanair to Nice. If I want to fly West I want to fly West not east for two hours first. How do I get to Vancouver for instance, not over Dublin or Manchester for sure, Paris, Amsterdam maybe but it is back to the old problem of travelling an hour in the wrong direction. Quicker and easier to go to Heathrow. Same reason it is alien to fly to Southend to go to London City, to go to Nice that is a different matter. Curiously then the success of the NQY/SEN route depends far more on the success of SEN in having a good range of connections than it does on NQY itself! Pointless relying on incoming tourist traffic from Southend catchment area.

Why advertise an airport, if anyone east of Liskeard doesn't know there is an airport at Newquay they are likely to be the sort of person that wouldn't be using it anyway.

The airlines and tour operators that use the airport need to advertise the services THEY offer but that is a matter of individual decision.

Simple fact is with nowhere sensible to land that offers good connections and London is the logical choice, the future is far from a proper job!

[GayFriendly]

SOU might well work for connections with flybe, just as MAN seems to sustain a daily Q400 during the season

A few years ago (perhaps 2010?) BE loaded SOU-NQY flights, can't remember frequency as they were only bookable for a few weeks before being taken off sale. So they have looked before but for reasons unknown didn't start it. However I can see it working as long as flights are timed to make reasonable connections. Likewise the MAN link - I assume the timings are aimed at tourist/leisure traffic as opposed to giving the NQY catchment opportunity to make viable connections at MAN. Flights from places like NWI and SOU have been timed to make good connections with TCX long haul flights amongst others.

[Barling Magna]

Southend Air Taxis used a Cessna 337 on the shuttle, didn't they? And a Cherokee Six on a couple of occasions?

[GROUNDHOG]

You are quite right they did indeed use a 337 for quite a few trips, it was around the time one of the Islanders has an unfortunate landing in the Isles of Scilly. My memory is what a great little aeroplane and what a super bunch they were at Southend. A long time ago now but do not remember the cherokee six though it is quite possible

[Expressflight]

The Cessna 337 ended up overrunning the grass strip at Orsett Hall, hitting a treestump and going across a road. I was part of the engineering team that dismantled the aircraft and roaded it back to SEN the next day. The main thing I remember about that task was the wonderful food served up at a transport cafe on the A13 nearby.

[devonish]

I bet flybe will carry on the Nqy gatwick service once a day with government funding next year

[Air Hop]

Not as they are pulling out of LGW they won't.

[Artic Monkey]

devonish

They've sold "all" their landing slots, so bets are off

[nonemmet]

Until a new runway or two are built at London, it doesn't seem likely that any airline will use it's valuable LHR/LGW slots for Newquay flights, so direct connections are off the table. In the probably lengthy interim perhaps adding Newquay to the Blue Islands network would be worth exploring. They've got the right aircraft and some useful business destinations and long haul connections out of Jersey.

[BCALBOY]

Longhaul connections out of Jersey ? Where to ?

[Phileas Fogg]

Amsterdam, Bristol, Geneva, Guernsey, London-City, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Southampton, Zurich :)

[GROUNDHOG]

There you go a flight from Newquay to London City.... via Jerseyl Who said there was no way to have flights to London.

Watch out for that big storm coming Phileas - stay safe...:=

[Phileas Fogg]

Big Storm GROUNDHOG?

Just looking on GE we have a typhoon and a tropical storm in the vicinity ... and after the maid has gone home for the day :)

Typhoons, earthquakes, all part of day to day life here, in the high season here at the moment so really busy.

[devonish]

As reported by the western morning news, newquay has gone down the PSO route, as I've stated before newquay to gatwick once a day early morning and late at night by flybe is the way ahead

[cornishsimon]

I expect that they might get a queue of airlines wanting to operate NQY-LON if it were made a PSO.

BA & U2 might well be at the top of the list ;)


cs

[VickersVicount]

I think the limited number of PSO seats required per day ie aircraft size will mean BA and EZY will need to invest a lot of their own money in such a venture. If they were borderline for profitability then I suppose this could be enough to tip the balance. Personally can't see BA at NQY anytime soon.

[davidjohnson6]

The problem faced by Newquay is that London airports suitable for a Newquay service are now so busy relative to runway capacity at times of day commercially useful to a Newquay service that nobody wants to waste a precious slot when a run down to Spain would make more cash.

Can PSO really ameliorate the situation sufficiently that it makes the slot issue no longer a problem for NQY ? From what I can tell, applying PSO rules to a route usually leads to significant rises in air fares - would demand for the route sustain the fare increase and prevent too many people moving to the train ?

[Skipness One Echo]

PSO is needed where there's a pressing social need and little alternative. Taxpayer subsidies to BA while there's a perfectly good train available? Not a chance.

devonish flybe are pulling out of LGW due to prohibitivley high charges from GIP, they won't daystop an aircraft all day on the ground just to serve NQY. The parking charges alone would kill that idea.

[devonish]

Skipness, good point about the ac at gatwick all day, as even if the PSO was awarded to flybe they would have no other slots at gatwick to use for the rest of the day. Cornwall council seem very positive about keeping the link and they say that airlines are queuing up to take it over

[oapilot]

The problems will hit in a few years time when the the West Coast line in falls into the sea and what is now an average rail link to the capital becomes a very poor link.
As for getting the train out of Cornwall to anywhere else - it's rubbish - I can drive to Bristol quicker than it takes to get there on the train.

[oapilot]

You could also add that if Cornwall Council want to save the airport they should get a management team in that know what they are doing...

[EI-BUD]

The issue of Newquay losing its London airline is like so many similar debates before. Jersey losing its London Heathrow route, Guernsey, IOM, Teesside (DTV) etc. unless the airport can buy and secure slots for the route it will have a difficult or doomed future. I accept this course of action is not straightforward but if government , local authorities and airports want to maintain connectivity between regions and London this option should be explored. Otherwise, KLM and co will export the passenger spend to AMS etc. however, not to say NQY will get KLM anytime soon.

While the airport may say there are airports queuing up to fly a London route the fact is the best placed one to maintain LGW has knocked it on the head. The bigger challenge is the number of airlines has been falling fast and options are limited. High fuel charges etc make airlines extremely sketchy about opening new routes that may not deliver the necessary return to satisfy shareholder requirements...

And as somebody pointed out flying an aircraft to a sun spot with big demand and high fares will win out every time...

The only option left for an LGW route must be a daily night stop at NQY by DY, a 733, they offer connecting services over their own routes and with so much going on for them at LGW, they could be attracted to the link... Bit if a long shot.

Otherwise, the sight of a PSO could draw FR to STN again...

[Wycombe]

S1E said:

Taxpayer subsidies to BA while there's a perfectly good train available? Not a chance.

That's just the point, Newquay is at the end of a very slow branch line (linespeed 40-50 mph max IIRC). It takes an hour just to get to Par (where the branch joins the mainline) and then another hour on top of that to get to Plymouth. In winter I think there are about 4 or 5 services up and down the branch per day, only some of which might be any good for connection to a mainline service. In Summer it's a bit better, with some direct HSTs from London, and some points north, but they still have to creep up and down that single-track branch.

To be honest, Newquay might as well be on an island as far as usefulness for rail connections is concerned.

What would work, for me, is something similar to the current Flybe op, with an a/c based at NQY, that does early and late runs to London, and maybe a Manchester (or Amsterdam/Paris?) runs during the day.

An opportunity for Skybus perhaps, especially with PSO funds to launch it, and I don't mean with a Twotter!

[Phileas Fogg]

Newquay is at the end of a very slow branch line

Do you believe for one minute that all the punters in/out of NQY actually live in Newquay and at the end of that very slow branch line?

Do all the punters that use CWL live in Rhoose, do all the punters that use BRS live in Lulsgate etc. etc. etc?

[Cyrano]

If there is to be a PSO on LON-NQY I would imagine:

It will be optimised for travellers from the NQY catchment travelling to London
It will focus on point-to-point rather than connecting traffic
It will be agnostic or largely agnostic in terms of London airports (because the goal is to link Newquay to London, not to a specific London airport)


Of course everything depends on the number of seats specified in the PSO but would there really be more than e.g. 50 people travelling by air from NQY to London on a typical morning?
This suggests to me that the most likely scenario is something like an ATR overnighting at NQY, flying up to LTN/STN/SEN in the morning, and then either doing other things out of London during the day (unless it's an old enough and cheap enough aircraft to be parked all day) and then returning to NQY in the evening. (I include SEN because Aer Arann has plenty of PSO experience and might fancy being indirectly subsidised to fly a couple of daytime routes out of SEN.)

[Wycombe]

In answer to Phileas, who said:

Do you believe for one minute that all the punters in/out of NQY actually live in Newquay and at the end of that very slow branch line?

No of course I don't, I was trying to respond to the point made by Skipness using an example of how poor/slow land-based public transport is in Cornwall.

In fact, the rail service in most of Devon and Cornwall (west of Exeter, anyway) is very constrained by ageing and under-invested infrastructure.

[devonish]

To add more to the woes of NQY, what's the betting that skybus move all the based ac to lands end when they get there Tarmac runways, and BIH move to Exeter now there both owned by the same company?

[Non Emmett]

Given the frequent weather related delays at Lands End could Skybus really afford to move out of Newquay ?

[GROUNDHOG]

Only a guess as I do not have the facts, if the weather is too bad to fly at Lands End would it not also be likely it is too bad in the Isles of Scilly?

I do think Skybus could have a bigger role in a future of Newquay but as I have said before they have a lovely little niche operation with little risk and zero competition so why go into something else that would endanger that position?

Problem is of course all this is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, a handful of flights to London or not isn't going to change the airports economics dramatically or go anywhere near covering the current massive losses.

[EI-BUD]

(I include SEN because Aer Arann has plenty of PSO experience and might fancy
being indirectly subsidised to fly a couple of daytime routes out of
SEN.)


Cyrano; I think you could be onto something here, and given that RE did attempt to launch Luton Newquay before this may have merit. Without a competing service and a PSO they could find it tempting. Moreover, a possibility to work the flights in with a DUB or ORK connection on some days, as these routes have operated in the past with some success.... albeit seasonally.

EI-BUD

[MerchantVenturer]

Flights between Newquay and Gatwick could be thrown lifeline | This is Cornwall (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Flights-Newquay-Gatwick-thrown-lifeline/story-19958083-detail/story.html#axzz2iMEbEE2d)

It seems that any PSO route between Newquay and London is not imminent. The linked newspaper report above suggests that Cornwall County Council officials have had initial talks with the DfT about making an application with the Dft saying the matter is now one for the council to decide whether it wants to pursue its application.

The newspaper article also mentions a former board member of Brymon Airways who is reportedly in talks aimed at securing a NQY-LON link which could also involve the reopening of Plymouth Airport. If this has been reported in PPRuNe before I apologise but I must have missed it.

The Wales Government finances the Cardiff-Anglesey PSO route even though there is a regular train link, some services without a change of train, between Cardiff and Holyhead that take less time and operate at greater frequency than Newquay-London trains all of which require at least one change en route. I take the point that NQY serves the wider Cornwall area where some cities/towns such as Truro and Penzance operate more frequently and without train change to the capital although journeys still take as long or longer in some cases than the Cardiff-Anglesey rail route.

[SWBKCB]

Are there many MP's near Newquay who have to get to/from Westminster quickly? :ok:

[Wycombe]

Fair question, but I suspect that the "Night Riviera" sees quite a few of those types, and others who might weekly commute to the big smoke.

FGW announced recently that it is to get some investment, and additional capacity. At least you can have a drink and then lie down while it completes the 7 hour journey to and from PZ.

[devonish]

Cornwall's airlink with London could get government protection.

Officials have met to discuss a subsidy for the Newquay to Gatwick route.

At the moment, it is due to come to an end in March when Flybe pulls out.

Supporters argue that it is essential for the Duchy's economy.

Cornwall Council released this statement:

Cornwall Council has held initial discussions with the Department for Transport regarding the possibility of the Government providing a subsidy on the route between Newquay and London to help secure the long term future of this vital air link.

Following the decision by Flybe on 23 May 2013 that it was to terminate its service between Newquay and Gatwick at the end of March 2014, the Council has been involved in a number of commercially negotiations with other airlines to secure the future of this route. Although these discussions remain on-going with other operators, the Council is also exploring other options to ensure the service is maintained, including a Public Service Obligation (PSO).

Imposing a PSO on the route between Newquay and London would mean the Government providing a subsidy to an operator to deliver the connection for a four year period. This would provide a much more secure future for the route than the current situation which relies on the commercial decisions of an operator.

"While there is no guarantee that the Government will support this application, all initial pointers from the Department for Transport have been positive and we believe we meet the necessary criteria”" said Adam Paynter, the Council's Cabinet Member for Partnerships.

The formal process, which is governed by EU regulations, requires the Council to seek competitive bids from airlines and present the case to the Government to provide financial support for one of these.

"Although our aim is to tender for a new service to begin on 1 April 2014, the length of the formal process means that it is possible that it would not be in place until later in the summer. This would result in a short break in service" said Adam Paynter. "While we recognise that this would create short term difficulties for regular travellers, starting the application process earlier would not have been practical as an essential requirement for a PSO is the exhaustion of all commercial alternative options. However, if successful, this will help us secure the long term future of this vital route.

"The Department of Transport is very aware of the issues which we are facing and the need for a decision to be made as quickly as possible."

The Council is continuing to work closely with the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership on this issue. The Chairman of the Partnership Chris Pomfret said: "The provision of a regular year-round service from Newquay to a London hub airport with a schedule that works for business is vital to the economy of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. The LEP fully supports this move to try and secure a PSO on the route and we will shortly issue a call for evidence to local businesses to help argue the case for air links to a London hub airport."

[compton3bravo]

I suppose they could ask our future King to cough up a few bob to subsidise the route but I doubt you would get much respose. Ooops there goes my fat chance of getting a gong for even suggesting such a thing. I hear he is down to his last few million!

[devonish]

How can Nqy now apply for a PSO, as one of the criteria is that you have exhausted all other options and no operators will take it on, so how can the council put out in their statement that they are still in discussions with other operators to take over the route without a PSO, have they not shot themselves in the foot and that the dft will now know this!!

[cornishsimon]

Positive things being said today in interview on local radio with MP for NQY and st Austell Stephen Gilbert.

Claims to have an agreement in principle with the government to find the PSO operation.

He also claims its likely to go from BE to whoever as a seamless transition without any time without a NQY-LON service.

We will see.

Any ideas who could step in on a PSO operation that quickly with aircraft and infrastructure in place/available ?


cs

[Phileas Fogg]

How can Nqy now apply for a PSO, as one of the criteria is that you have exhausted all other options and no operators will take it on, so how can the council put out in their statement that they are still in discussions with other operators to take over the route without a PSO, have they not shot themselves in the foot and that the dft will now know this!!

Point 1 is that were the council to put out a statement, to the effect, that there is no hope of any other operator taking over the route etc. etc. etc. then the punters would see no alternative but to vote with their feet and start planning alternative means of transport.

Of course the council don't want that to happen and, so to speak, "It ain't over until the fat lady sings" so they're putting out statement(s) to the effect "Bear with us, we're working on it" and the NQY faithful should be waiting for more news.

On the other hand, of course, it could be that prospective operator(s) are making demand(s) for some form of financial incentive to operate the route thus perhaps why the PSO application!

[sxflyer]

Who could step in? Could be anything with a 50 seater or less, doubt it would be anything bigger, and not necessarily anyone currently operating from the UK

So, obvious options would be:
BMI Regional (to STN?)
Eastern (to STN?)
Aer Arann/EIR (probably to SEN)
Loganair (LTN/STN)
Blue Islands (LTN/STN)
Cityjet to LCY, if they have a spare F50. They might fancy the guaranteed income and think they've done PSO in Ireland

Otherwise, anything anyone can think of with that size aircraft
Minoan/Denim/Darwin etc

[virginblue]

Realistically, airports like Newquay are at risk as a result of the disappearance of 1970s/1980s-style regional aviation. Here in Germany, regional airports suchs as Kiel (KEL), Hof (HOQ), Mönchengladbach (MGL) or Augsburg (AGB) that used to have to links to hub airports such as FRA, DUS, BER or MUC (some to three of them) with 50-70 seater turboprops are nowadays general aviation airfields. And even the next bigger category of airports (places like FMO, SCN) is now struggling unless they are willing to bed Ryanair.

[GROUNDHOG]

Apart from his time pulling people out of the Thames ( he was involved in rescuing a drowning woman) Mr Gilbert must have been very busy because I sent him an e mail with some ideas and an offer to assist and didn't even get the courtesy of a reply.

For no logical reason and despite all the reasons it shouldn't be possible, I still have a feeling there will be a new operator on a London route but it may not be Gatwick.

No idea whether there is a chance a PSO will help or not, wasn't it muted that was the way to save the Penzance helicopter link though?

[Artic Monkey]

With no "published" plans as yet as to what is happening to the NQY based BE Dash8 it may transpire that BE will pick up a PSO route to another London airport.

[cornishsimon]

BE do not have a based aircraft at NQY.

They nightstop but can't remember which base the aircraft and crews come from.



cs

[Artic Monkey]

Yes they do because I fly it.

It is based in NQY but crewed from Exeter.

[cornishsimon]

Sorry AM.

Seems I was misinformed.

Is it just the NQY-LGW & MAN rotations that you do on the based Q400 ?

Wouldn't it make sense if the LGW route closes to use that based Q400 for other routes, ie MAN and then increase EDI etc to make use of the based aircraft ?

Either that or they will pull the based aircraft away and use a MAN based aircraft for that rotation.


cs

[Artic Monkey]

cs

No dramas mate. Yes that's effectively the routes it does. On a weekend it covers the LGW/NCL rotation in the morning, and then the double LGW in the evening. On a Sunday it does the early LGW followed by a NQY - MAN - EDI - MAN - NQY and then the last LGW rotation in the evening.
The aircraft is "technically" an Exeter aircraft, but only because Exeter is over crewed to cover this NQY based airframe. As and when it is pulled from NQY next March this doesn't mean it will end up back in Exeter, it'll be where it's needed.

It would make sense to utilise it in the manner in which you state to a point, but the question is what do you do with the aircraft afterwards? The aircraft has to fly at least 8 sectors per day to be even slightly viable, and that would mean a 7am (or near as damn it) departure to an airport that demands a service. Is there a case for a double daily MAN route? Apart from London is there anywhere else in the UK that the Cornish business travellers are commuting to? The "problem" with London is that it offers something for every type of traveller whereas other cities do not.

Could a NQY-SOU-NQY-MAN-NQY rotation work? I know SOU has been discussed here before but it hasn't really been tested. The SOU route that was put on a few years ago was pulled before it even started. That was nothing to do with demand but more to do with a time slot becoming available to utilise the aircraft from SOU but when it was looked at closely the NQY and back schedule was too large for the window of opportunity to use the airframe.

We used to do EDI a few times per week on the airframe before we started the Manchester. I'd have to check my old logbooks to ascertain exactly how many times per week, but it was a few times per week wasn't it? The loads were always ok.
bmi baby was always popular to EMA. Are there enough people willing to travel to a sunshine route from Kernow? Maybe we could try the odd PMI to test the water. End of the day the new CEO will have his master plan which is imminent as far as I know. More will be known about the strategy of Flybe when that's announced and whether we will want to keep/develop NQY any further. Fingers crossed we will.

[cornishsimon]

NQY-MAN - has previously operated 2&3 daily but via BRS and with the ex PLH etc with SZ.

Also WW previously operated 4 or 5 daily on 737s during summer so it's possible that MAN could support a twice daily Q400.

How are the loads on the route ?

NQY-EMA, NQY-LBA , NQY-DUB Are all ex SZ/WW routes that operated for years so there's potential for those also.

Obviously I don't know loads & yields etc

SOU is an interesting one, due to the number of onward routes offered if marketed correctly it could work, for example it would if timed well open up JER, ALC, BCN etc.

Same applies to MAN but marketing for this would be the key


cs

[GROUNDHOG]

Sun routes, more likely in the shoulders and winter as so many here are involved in tourism anyway and it is from Easter to end of summer all the money is made.

That said as other industries grow the position is slowly changing.

[Phileas Fogg]

It's been said many times already, Q400's, Airbus's and Boeing's are too large a aircraft for the year round Cornwall catchment area, what Cornwall needs is a modern day Bill Bryce to take the bull by the horns and start an operation of between 20 and 50 seater aircraft!

[davidjohnson6]

Phileas - so would an airline like Eastern Airways be what Cornwall needs ? A bit like Air South West ? Or maybe that's been tried before...

[Phileas Fogg]

DJ,

Cornwall needs a minimum of a five and two half days a week morning and evening service to a civilised hub, preferably LON but MAN as an alternative, many many years ago BMA were pulling out, much the same as FlyBE are pulling out now, and a particular hard nosed Kiwi bought the aeroplane and took the route on himself.

Dornier, Jetstream, Saab, those are the type of aircraft required, as for the operator ... well that's a different matter!

And just what did happen to the group claiming to have all the infastructure to restart schedules out of a re-opened PLH ... NQY ain't so far away now is it? :)

[GROUNDHOG]

As Phileas puts states it has all been said before, only small sub 50 seat aircraft with frequency will work here and then we are back to the question of where will you land in London.

I will be back in Canada shortly and have access to available aircraft and a current EC operating licence to put it on, if it was that simple I would consider doing it and get a team together. It isn't and a government subsidy wouldn't make it any easier.

Arguably Skybus would be the best people to mount a London service but as said before why should they, why take the risk? Why endanger a cosy profitable airline, bigger isn't always better.

But there is a bigger picture...

Even if someone does get a London service of the ground again that does not solve Newquay's financial problems, time I feel to look at selling the place to private investors, people that understand the commercial World and save the local rate payers a lot of money.

I would love to get the chance to look at the costs at the airport because I bet the Council haven't taken a hard nosed look, just tinkered at the edges. An example, no disrespect to the current MD but I understand his salary is in excess of £125K. I am sure he warrants this but isn't that a bit like your local village footie team signing Christiano Ronaldo as striker........:confused:

This is a tiny regional airport struggling to survive, can someone please start running the place in survival mode.......lets have less money in and less waffle out. As for a £10 development fee, laughable.:=

[SWBKCB]

How about going back to the old Dan Air Link City days and do NQY-DSA-PIK-MME-BOH-NQY and then the reverse the following day - that would keep these boards spinning for months! :ok:

[Fairdealfrank]

As Phileas puts states it has all been said before, only small sub 50 seat aircraft with frequency will work here and then we are back to the question of where will you land in London.


In the absence of any meaningful or imminent LHR expansion, NHT could be ideal with some infrastrusture improvement, especially for the 20-50 seater aircraft envisaged, and not just on the NQY route.

Clearly a SEN-type terminal-adjacant-to-station setup would be needed for the Central line tube and Chiltern railways. The latter could provide a 17 minute train journey to London-Marylebone.

Other London airports are unsuitable: LCY and LGW charge too much (hence BE's impending departure from the latter); LTN, SEN and STN are too far with slow and/or complicated rail access.

As for LHR.....let's not go there: tragically the best option (because of the connecting possibilities as well as point to point) is too expensive, too crowded, too prone to delays, and has slot acquisition problems.


Even if someone does get a London service of the ground again that does not solve Newquay's financial problems, time I feel to look at selling the place to private investors, people that understand the commercial World and save the local rate payers a lot of money.


Maybe not, but a London service would help a great deal, as is the case at any struggling small local airport.



How about going back to the old Dan Air Link City days and do NQY-DSA-PIK-MME-BOH-NQY and then the reverse the following day - that would keep these boards spinning for months!


Surely not DSA, it's relatively new as a civil airport, in the Danair days it was RAF Finningley.

[Phileas Fogg]

The NQY, and indeed PLH, routes had LHR slots until some tin pot outfit took those away!

Now I wonder who that was and perhaps that tin pot outfit's previous owner, and ongoing chaperone, could kindly request that said tin pot outfit give said slots back in lieu of previous owner/ongoing chaperone forking out buckets loads of taxpayers money on a PSO subsidy to some outer London area airport!

[cornishsimon]

I would suggest that a twice daily BA A319 could be sustained on NQY-LHR with the connectivity that it would provide.

Just look at how many people cross over the Tamar on the train with luggage tagged to LHR but who are in fact Plymouth/Cornwall area


cs

[Skipness One Echo]

How many is it then? Can you honestly say what the p2p loads Oct-May on LHR-NQY are to justify any commercial return on a slot? I genuinely would like to know the number of connecting pax from the NQY area flying on from LHR.

Why do BA need to serve NQY when they can make the passengers use the train and use the slots for more profitable international routes? There's no need to serve NQY, as unlike LBA, they're hardly fighting for market share with KLM. BA tried LGW-NQY a while back, just after they dropped the BRT DHC8 run. Hardly a success. If you want to live in one of the most remote parts of the UK then great, however you asking a lot for the world to serve your local airport just cos you live nearby, it's not as if there's a load of industry in the area. Cornwall's tourism and second homes, it's never, ever going to justify a LHR slot, certainly not twice daily on an A319.
Inverness would be before you in the queue for that one!

[EI-BUD]

Skipness; when I read the suggestion earlier on of a double daily BA I immediately thought of BA's LBA route which you mention.

If we look at the stats for BE's frequent service to LGW, I recall it amounts to about 160/170 each day in each direction. That without growth, would amount to a plane a day in each direction, say 319/320, to work it would need to be a night stop at NQY in the evening and depart early morning for peak morning arrival time. These are like hens teeth. This winter timetable BA's first departure ex Belfast for LHR is 0750 arriving 0915!!! This is a big domestic route for BA and they have no pre 9am arrival into LHR for it. Hence, NQY almost impossible.

Back to LBA comparison , I'm not convinced BA would have ordinarily gone for this route, but at the time of the Bmi takeover and the farming out of ex Bmi slots for competition on domestic routes BA certainly wanted to convinced the relevant authorities that they will support domestics, and with the absence of Bmi on MAN it certainly was a good experiment to use some of the capacity on LBA...

The stats and available data would not inspire BA to revisit NQY...

[cornishsimon]

Skipness - as iv previously suggested, in my opinion your attitude stinks especially to anything I post or anything anyone posts that contradicts your opinion.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

What makes your opinion more correct than mine ? Do tell please ?

Equally, I openly admit I'm just an interested observer, who happens to pay council tax to CCC.

I do like the you choose to live in Cornwall, you don't deserve decent transport links opinion !

For the record my personal opinion is that a twice daily A319 to LHR with connections would be sustainable. I don't have figures for how many people from Cornwall fly from LHR yearly that could use a lhr link but with respect neither do you.

Also I'm saying that they could sell the seats, not that they would provide decent yield.


cs

[Skipness One Echo]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

What makes your opinion more correct than mine ? Do tell please ?
I work as a marketing analyst, this is what I do. I am telling you clearly, there is no market to support your dream scenario, the demographics aren't there, the seaonality would kill yields and there are many, many middle sized UK and European airports who have a better case than NQY. Frankly NQY is on a knife edge to survive as a commercial airport and appears to need more taxpayers money to maintain a London link. Let me be utterly clear, in that case, you are not in any way, shape or form, by any relevant metric, in the running for a twice daily BA link to Heathrow. Simon this is not personal between you and I, but let's focus :
Also I'm saying that they could sell the seats, not that they would provide decent yield. You could just about do it in summer, there is no substantial industry or business to support the out of season services. None.
I do like the you choose to live in Cornwall, you don't deserve decent transport links opinion !
It's not about "deserve", it's about the difficulties of a commercial return without taxpayer subsidy. Actually that's "even more" taxpayer subsidy. It's not commercially viable as the whole county barely has a population of half a million people and is geared to tourism and leisure, around a quarter of GDP. The posts above are good ideas pitching at the right market which does exist, clearly, but you need to tap it in a way that will be affordable for any subsidy and for the consumer.

Having said that if they want BA badly enough, they could pony up some properly serious money to Willie Walsh. I imagine it might be a lot more than the council tax payers would stomach.

[cornishsimon]

Skipness

Sorry but your attitude is exactly what's wrong with the country.

This is why the NHS outside of vast population bases is a joke, this is why there no 24 hour fire service cover apart from two stations.

It's the I'm a Londoner and bugger the rest of you attitude.

Suppose it's fine until such time as you decide to retire to Cornwall ey !

And for the record I also did a marketing/advertising job before I decided to do something worthwhile with my life, and with respect if you market it correctly you can sell ice to Eskimos ;)



cs

[Skipness One Echo]

Suppose it's fine until such time as you decide to retire to Cornwall ey !

Actually I'm from the West of Scotland and I have also used NQY and been around Cornwall. They're not dis-similar, btw a marketing analyst doesn't sell, we crunch the numbers and do the modelling and set the metrics for success and failure.
It's the I'm a Londoner and bugger the rest of you attitude.
No it's more a "if you want it, then pay for it," and if you need to express that your career is in some way more "worthwhile" than others, then fine, I won't be losing sleep. Scotland has the Highlands where we do subsidise air fares, trains and boats, and rightly so. The key difference between us is that you genuinely think BA can make a go of NQY commercially (in FEBRUARY??) , I gotta say that you'd need to pony up some serious money from the taxpayer for this. That's a different conversation though.

[cornishsimon]

Where did I state it was commercially viable ?

What I did say is that they could fill the flights I'm sure, filling a flight and it being commercially viable is totally different which is why iv never said it.


cs

[EI-BUD]

For the record my personal opinion is that a twice daily A319 to LHR with connections would be sustainable. I don't have figures for how many people from Cornwall fly from LHR yearly that could use a lhr link but with respect neither do you.

Cornishsimon, sadly nowadays it is not about whether a route is sustainable or not, it's about airlines looking for markets that generate the greatest returns and offer value for shareholder investment...

I get the whole debate about regional airports, in Ireland the debate has been huge especially since PSO's have been removed in the main. Why should local tax payers pay for a council investment that is for 160 people each way per day. BE know the stats, the revenue, the amount of P2P, transfer pax etc. if it stacks up, they would look at an alternate service to another London airport, I.e. LTN. If not it's says a lot to other potential airlines as there are no other operators. Given there are no other operators you'd imagine they would....

[GROUNDHOG]

Skipnesss if you want to be a good market analyst you had better visit Cornwall more often and take a drive around if you truly believe it is just second homes and tourism. In the last few years the growth of business down here has been exceptional, examples happily supplied!

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Sub 50 seats or forget it.

[Fairdealfrank]

Would love to see LHR-NQY, would be on it frequently now that the fun's gone out of driving (price of petrol, congestion, speed traps, etc.) which is tragic bearing in mind the improvements on the A30/A303 over the years!

It's also the best London airport for NQY because of connectivity with longhaul flights, which helps with make "thin" routes viable.

However,

(1) it won't happen unless and until LHR is expanded, making slots easily available and the slot market is ended;
(2) there would have to be some arrangements for lower airport charges;
(3) domestic APD would need to scrapped or go back to Ken Clarke levels (he introduced APD in the 90s);
(4) as a "thin" route, LHR-NQY (and similar) would need smaller aircraft of the type that BA don't have and some frequency, so would not expect BA on the route, that said, interlining arrangements/code sharing with BA/VS could be possible;

If LHR does expand and gets a new longhaul routes, additional "thinner" domestic/near abroad routes will be required to feed these, supplying the connecting pax.

[Phileas Fogg]

Simon,

With all due respect if BE can't make a Q400 operation work they how on god's earth is any operator going to make a twice daily A319 operation work?

Going back in time, BMA then Brymon operated, twice daily, a Y50 HPR7 of which I recall load factors in the region of 67%.

Thereafter Brymon, then BA, then ASW combined Y50 operations with PLH effectly reducing NQY to Y25 operations but increased the frequency of services to three or more per day, if three then Y75, if four then Y100 per day ... nowhere even close to filling even a once a day A319.

And the reason behind increasing frequency of services is because not everybody wants to be setting their alarm clock for stupid o'clock to catch the 0700 departure nor does everybody want to be kicking their heels waiting until a 1700 departure when they could get up at a reasonable hour and be in London or wherever, by other means of transport, earlier than the 1700 departure would get them there.

What's needed is fewer seats but more often per day, something like a Do328 or SF340 morning and evening before increasing frequencies to three or four rotations daily, operate at the times the customers want to travel and to hell with your big shiny jets!

Skipness,

It's not about changing ... Back in the day there were up to 4 or 5 slots per day from PLH and NQY to/from LHR, departures from PLH/NQY around 0700 and 1700 and then a middle of the day service.

But then the World's favourite airline came along, and as they did with the Isle of Man, they effectively robbed Devon and Cornwall of their LHR slots for the purpose of lining their own shareholders pockets and now it is proposed that the British taxpayer fork out as a result.

P.S. And I don't need a market analyst to tell me when something stinks, I can smell it for myself. :)

[Skipness One Echo]

In what sense were they the county's slots? BA made a no brainer commercial decision to swap a DHC7 slot to Cornwall for a twinjet slot to Europe. No laws were broken, and those Brymon slots were not ring fenced.

It's all part of a lack of a coherent strategic policy where we might have a third runway WITH ring fenced slots for NQY, INV, IOM, JER, GCI and share some of the wealth London enjoys by having a world hub. Sorry that's just madness I know....

[Phileas Fogg]

Skipness,

The country is called England, indeed United Kingdom, London is not merely the capital just for Londoners and/or all the foreign nationals residing there, it is the capital of the people of England, many of which have business to conduct there, and it is only reasonable that they be provided with a reasonable means of transport for getting to and from there and/or to connect with London's world hub.

Signed
Phileas Fogg
Born in the Borough of Twickenham

[oapilot]

Phileas,

Surely it's not that Flybe couldn't make it work (although night stopping an aircraft where there is no base is never going to help on a thinish route long term), it's that they got themselves into such a mess financially they had to sell their Gatwick slots, making the route impossible for them to operate.

They fought long and hard, and wrote off what was it £2m? to get a monopoly on the route in the first place, it must have seemed worth it at some stage.

The blame for no long term London route lies squarely at the feet of the inept and naive airport management. Lets see if this latest disaster leads to another payrise.

[Skipness One Echo]

In what sense were they the county's slots?
it is the capital of the people of England, many of which have business to conduct there, and it is only reasonable that they be provided with a reasonable means of transport for getting to and from there and/or to connect with London's world hub.
The business model is a free market economy so you're going to need the Treasury to subsidise that as well, that's the conversation you need to have. btw a "reasonable means of transport" in this day and age is the train sadly.

[Phileas Fogg]

oapilot,

Knowing the route and the catchment area of old I'd suggest that FlyBE's load factors and/or yield were something similar to p1ss poor.

Brymon, BA, ASW were offering Y25 per flight some 3 or 4 times per day, that's a max of 100 seats to fill per day, how many seats were FlyBe trying to fill per day and just perhaps this was just one of the routes that got them in to such a mess financially!

[EMB-145LR]

Why not a bmi ERJ-135 into LCY? Three times a day should do it. Fares would be high enough to cover the extortionate costs of City.

[EI-BUD]

EMB145-ER

Ref to LCY and bmi, why not? No bmi ops at LCY or NQY, but more significantly pre 9am arrival at LCY has exorbitant charges. Given current volume on BE via LGW , circa 160 per day each way, a move to bmi on LCY, numbers would decline due to 1. Higher fares due to airport used and smaller higher cost ac and 2. Lack of connecting passengers via LCY.

EI - bud

[Cyrano]

Why not a bmi ERJ-135 into LCY? Three times a day should do it. Fares would be high enough to cover the extortionate costs of City.

I'd guess that to make the route profitable you'd need a 70% load factor and an average one-way fare of (back-of-the-envelope) at least £130-150. Is that really achievable on a 3/day NQY-LCY?

Plus as EI-BUD correctly points out, bmi has no operations at either NQY or LCY. That'd add station costs which are not reflected in the fare guesstimate above. Marketing costs are also not included: bmi isn't in the London market and would be unlikely to want to spend a fortune marketing itself in London just for a NQY route. If the focus is therefore on Cornwall-originating passengers, who's going to be on the morning flight from LCY back to NQY? The route would be a very directional one.

(Of course a PSO would be an entirely different game. It will be very interesting to see how any PSO specification deals with the choice of London airports, i.e. will the PSO pay the extra costs associated with flying to LCY, or will the PSO exclude London airport costs from its evaluation and therefore tacitly push flights to the cheapest London airport?)

[Fairdealfrank]

It's all part of a lack of a coherent strategic policy where we might have a third runway WITH ring fenced slots for NQY, INV, IOM, JER, GCI and share some of the wealth London enjoys by having a world hub. Sorry that's just madness I know....


That is actually a very sensible suggestion and a reasonable requirement for LHR expansion. Would expand the list to also include airports in areas that need inward investment and regeneration, such as MME, LPL, etc.. Also, the new longhaul destinations made available with a third rwy will need feeder flights from regional airports.

There's a role here for smaller carriers, would not expect these to provided by BA or VS with A319s. Under those circumstances, BD regional could be a contender, why not?

The 4 conditions outlined in reply #485 are needed to make any of this likely or viable.



Skipness,

The country is called England, indeed United Kingdom, London is not merely the capital just for Londoners and/or all the foreign nationals residing there, it is the capital of the people of England, many of which have business to conduct there, and it is only reasonable that they be provided with a reasonable means of transport for getting to and from there and/or to connect with London's world hub.

Signed
Phileas Fogg
Born in the Borough of Twickenham


Indeed, Phileas, quite right, and not just England, all of the UK needs this access plus the connectivity over LHR.

As for Twickenham, it's a fine town, know it well!

[Phileas Fogg]

Indeed, Phileas, quite right, and not just England, all of the UK needs this access

I was staying away from politics not daring to suggest that London might be the capital of Scotland nor Wales :)

As for Twickenham, it's a fine town, know it well!


Hampton, as in Hampton Court, actually but have never lived in Middlesex in my life, the family lived just over the river in Kingston, Surrey :)

[GROUNDHOG]

Cyrano - interesting I was also doing a back of the envelope and we have come up with the same fare levels which are roughly equivalent to the first class rail fare, always a good guide!

EI-BUD - I am slightly confused where you get a daily average of 160 passengers? Flybe themselves quote just under 100.000 during 2012 which is nowhere even remotely close to that.

Bear in mind the subsidy to the airport this year is budgeted at £3 million and passenger throughput including London is down to 166,000 it doesn't take a market analyst to see how much extra each one has to contribute to make the airport break even!! Now take away the 100,000 on Gatwick and see the result....£45 per head.

I have a cheaper plan, want to come to Cornwall or go to London, here you are have a free rail ticket.

[EI-BUD]

EI-BUD - I am slightly confused where you get a daily average of 160 passengers? Flybe themselves quote just under 100.000 during 2012 which is nowhere even remotely close to that.

Hi Groundhog,
I stand corrected, my source is the CAA website and monthly stats for September, which show total passenger traffic on the route was 8110, down 6% on the same month last year. This is for total passengers flown in both directions, so a total of 135 per day each way and not 160 as previously advised.

I like your idea of free train fares on the route. Not that it impacts me. That suggestion is something like Mary Portas got put into place between Margate and London in an attempt to put life into the town centre ... On a slightly different note.

[tibbs87]

Why not get a smaller feeder airline in place, like Citywing with a 19 seater, flying into Stansted, Luton or Oxford? I incidentally messaged the Citywing facebook page and asked them about it, to them responding with -
''We currently have no plans to operate a Newquay service to London (though you are right, it'd have to be to Oxford, Stansted or Southampton as the destination). We have been watching what's been going on with FlyBe and Gatwick however, and I'm surprised that EasyJet aren't going to do it, considering we have a very similar situation here on the Isle of Man where they are going to continue the service.
We constantly evaluate new route opportunities however, and if nothing else does come off FlyBe and EasyJets movements, we may re-evaluate.''

Other feeders possibly Eastern with a J41, Loganair with a Saab340.

[davidjohnson6]

While the idea of Citywing is interesting, I just can't see Oxford or Southampton working. Southampton to Waterloo takes a minimum of 1h15. A taxi from Kidlington to Oxford followed by a train to Paddington also takes a minimum of 1h15. Assume 1h00 flight in a prop, 10 mins from aircraft seat to leaving the airport, 10 mins at train station for ticket / waiting for a train, 30 mins at Newquay for checkin, and 30 mins from office to Newquay airport, and you are already at 3h35. And that's just to Paddington / Waterloo rather than the place in London you want to reach.

A train from St Austell to Paddington is approx every hour, takes 4h30 and has the advantage of being undisturbed time allowing work to be done. The result is that while for Newquay residents a flight to OXF or SOU makes sense, you have shrunk the catchment area quite a bit, making it harder to get enough bums on seats.

If an air route to London is to work, I think it'll have to be Stanstead or maybe Luton - Southampton and Oxford are just too far from London to really be competitive without some sort of taxpayer subsidy.

[tibbs87]

I agree, Luton, Stansted would be viable options. If Citywing were to carry out services, do you reckon smaller airports like Farnborough could be considered? Just food for thought :)

[cornishsimon]

Any news of apply aviation at NQY ?

Are they actually open ? Not heard anything on this for a while and think it was supposed to be up and running in September ?


cs

[Groundloop]

If Citywing were to carry out services, do you reckon smaller airports like Farnborough could be considered? Just food for thought

Farnborough, like Biggin Hill, is not allowed scheduled services because of planning permission restrictions.