Aer Lingus Regional

[mathers_wales_uk]

I would also suggest the return of Cardiff to Cork since the ferry service from Swansea to Cork has been suspended due to the company going bust.

[EI-BUD]

Cornishsimon

Dublin/Newquay is on the list....

EI-BUD

[cornishsimon]

Whoops I'm blind !!


cs

[Tom the Tenor]

It looks like mainline EI are quitting Gatwick Cork come the winter schedule and if this is the case there is a great case for a Cork to Southampton? Also, it would still probably annoy Ryanair too!

I would travel on it anyway.

[Jack1985]

I noticed one of the 201s parked in front of the old terminal at ORK yesterday with vans around it. REI,

The next time you'll be in Cork i'd say you'll see either REH or REI parked up again with RE Tech vans around it. :mad: The sooner the 201's get replaced the better!

EI-BUD - Let's just say the first 3 routes listed wont be far off ;) Also to add to this there's rumour of flights to Inverness as well as expansion from Cork. Phase 3 of expansion is to be focused on Dublin (primarily) and Cork.

[MidlandDeltic]

Dublin/East Midlands
Dublin/Leeds Bradford
Dublin/Newcastle
Dublin/London Oxford??? Could this airport accomodate
Dublin/Dundee
Dublin/Humberside (say days 1357?)
Dublin/Liverpool daily to connect to BOS or JFK flights
Dublin/Newquay (say 3/4 per week
City of Derry to Edinburgh (bit of a longshot?)
Cork/Newquay
Carlisle (rumours about that)



Dublin - East Midlands would pitch them directly at Ryanair 2/3 times daily flights - don't think they would do that. If they wanted East Midlands, I would suggest Shannon - and push heavily through connections, uncrowded transfer and immigration pre-clearance there for the US. EMA have been talking about a North American connection for some time - Jet2 operated a package trip last winter which was successful - but this would give UK midlanders alternatives and prove the market if it exists.

MD

[mathers_wales_uk]

So would we se the return of Cork from Cardiff which was pulled when Aer Arann changed the 3rd daily Daily to Bristol.

[EI-BUD]

Midland Celtic, I dont see what would make EMA any different than Bristol v Ryanair, and I am not suggesting that it could be as frequent as say the Bristol route.

Moreover, Christoff Muller said recently enough that routes like DUB EMA, LBA and NCL were areas that Aer Lingus Regional could exploit in terms of having the right size of aircraft and that allied with US connectivity would make them the right areas to develop. Lets wait and see. It would seem reasonable that Aer Lingus would want to return to old Aer Lingus Commuter markets that were not sustainable in the face of Ryanair. Now with better focus on US routes, T2( and realise EIR dont go to T1 at 'the moment') and pre immigration clearance, there is a case. Liverpool would seem like a good option to me at a daily frequency, given that KLM as axed LPL AMS.

EI-BUD

[AirGuru]

CWL-ORK was a hugely popular route back in the day so to speak ! Would be great to see it back, especially as mathers mentions, that the ferry link has stopped.

[9287Excellent]

Anyone have information about the Bournemouth/Dublin route?? Is it going to be seasonal or is it being cut altogether? Would be a shame if its a total cut. Also why does this route operate so late in the day? Surely an earlier morning flight would be better and then they could pick up on any potential connection traffic to the long-haul USA routes.

[shamrock7seal]

I'm also holding back on booking my Bournemouth-Dublin flight in November but may have to consider Southampton-Dublin instead. Not sure why this route would be seasonal as there is a huge Irish population and very strong VFR links between the two places. Perhaps not sustainable for the likes of 189 seats but certainly a 70 seater.

Someone please advise what is happening.

[Cyrano]

Anyone have information about the Bournemouth/Dublin route?? Is it going to be seasonal or is it being cut altogether? Would be a shame if its a total cut. Also why does this route operate so late in the day? Surely an earlier morning flight would be better and then they could pick up on any potential connection traffic to the long-haul USA routes.

Perhaps it doesn't operate earlier because the fleet is fully utilised on other routes earlier in the day?

[9287Excellent]

"Perhaps it doesn't operate earlier because the fleet is fully utilised on other routes earlier in the day?"

Yes that is true, the fleet could be fully utilised earlier in the day, I just thought it might be worth trying the flight with a new timing to maybe capture some connecting traffic before cancelling the flight altogether (if indeed that is what has happened and its not just a seasonal cut). Although from what I understand, it seems quite a popular route and whilst I know this doesn't mean its making a lot of money, it is still quite a new route, with Aer Lingus Regional/Aer Arann operating it anyway.

[MARKEYD]

It seems strange then that all the other UK airports are on sale for the winter now including Blackpool which was summer only originally and Bournemouth is missing completely for the winter

[9287Excellent]

Yes it does seem strange you're right. I've just gone onto the Aer Lingus website to try and book a hypothetical trip in November and it still says the route is only operating from May-27th October 2012...so I'm assuming, if it remains, its just going to be summer season only.

[Ground1]

Any news as yet on the new aircraft?

[Papa2Charlie]

ATR have a press conference on 11th July so they may announce something then.....assuming they have something to announce with respect to Aer Arann.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Aer Arann to take eight ATR 72-600s | ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines-components/news/aer-arann-take-eight-atr-72-600s-0711#.T_1zM3M-nZc.twitter)

Receive them form early 2013

[cornishsimon]

Good news for RE


cs

[mart901]

Finally, brilliant news. Does anyone know what seating configuration they will have? Also interesting to see what happens to the existing fleet.

[FLYboh]

BOH now on sale for the winter. Same as summer with 6 flights per week.:ok:

[Airbus321-200]

Seating plan will probably be 72 same as the -500s for continuity within the fleet.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Is this classed as an expansion or to replace the ATR-42s, along with the Air Contractors ATR72-200 (EI-SLN, & EI-SLL) along with EI-REH & EI-REI?

Obviously by replacing the above is technically an expansion in the terms of capacity however I mean total aircraft expansion.

[TRY2FLY]

Anyone know what was happening with the ATR42 at EDI on the Alpha taxiway yesterday, fire service in attendance

[GoEDI]

REL is currently sitting in EDI tech presume that was the aircraft involved and not a 42.

[TRY2FLY]

Oops meant 72 :o . Heard something on RT about smoke from a shutdown engine, then I had to change freq.

[bigjim99]

Currently sat in MAN after this mornings flight to ORK was cancelled due to EI-SLL going tech in ORK.

Most passengers have been transferred onto WAT which has raised a concern for me. Can you please tell me what I should do.

The MAN-WAT flight is operated by a ATR 42-300 and due to the cancelled ORK flight all 48 seats are now taken. There is a golfing party onboard of about 30 PAX and I am concerned about the weight of the aircraft. I understand the max load is in the region of 4,500kg.

51 people (inc PAX and Crew) about 75% of which are fairly large golfers/men lets say average 85kg (i would guess this may even be too low) for all onboard = 4,335kg

The 30 golfers each had a checked bag (say 10kg) and a outsize golf club bag (say 20kg) = 900kg (not sure how they are going to fit it all onto the A/C!)

Other PAX checked baggage I am not sure about and as for hand baggage, there seems to be a lot of this also - which wasn't weighed at check in.

As you can see from these quick calculations it would appear that we have some weight issues or am I incorrect?

If we make it off the ground, we are flying into WAT which is a short runway - potential stopping distance issues?

I assume that weights are all calculated electronically but when I looked at the check in line it just looked wrong. As a PAX, I have flown probably around 500 sectors on ATR A/C and have never seen anything like this before.

So should I make the flight crew aware of my opinion? I am a regular flyer and don't want to cry wolf but will do if there is a genuine reason. What is your thoughts?

[flatliner]

If weights an issue those golf bags will be off loaded .
Unless its snowing in waterford landing won't be an issue either.
However those 42's have been around since the wright brothers .... That would concern me ...... Especially if it's BYO !

[caaardiff]

Do you not think that there are checks put in place to avoid such issues?
Well done for picking it up, as most pax wouldn't have a clue on weight and balance. But the Airlines operations, Pilots and dispatchers all have to account for the safe dispatch of aircraft within its weight limits.
The loadsheet produced will show the Captain its maximum take off weight, and maximum landing weight in WAT.
I can assure you, you have nothing to worry about.
However the golfers might - the cost of hiring clubs until they arrive!

[bigjim99]

Hi Guys, thanks for your messages back.

So what weight do they base an average passenger on with average hand luggage on the load sheet? I would suggest that today this would be significantly greater than the average. Obviously all checked bags, fuel etc will be of a known weight.

I was just surprised by the lack of concern the weight was given by the Menzies check in staff despite sticking so many 'heavy' tags on bags. They were getting a lot of stick from passengers, were under stress and wanted rid of the PAX as soon as possible. They didn't even ask to look at hand luggage. On flights that are nearly full it seems normal procedure to weigh all hand baggage as well.

I'm sure it'll be grand and I have, as always, every faith in the RE crew.

Yeah, valid point regarding condition of A/C, thankfully BYO seems to be operating from DUB today :) Although tbh all of the 42's are as bad as each other even if some have been tarted up to be easier on the eye!

[flatliner]

It's been a while but I think I remember the 42 MTOW being 16.9 kg.
The max zero fuel weight being 15.5 kg.
The basic weight is 12 tonnes so with 42 men on board and all their bags, a rule of thumb would be 4200kg (42x100).
4200 + 12000(approx) is well over the max zero fuel weight which makes this the limiting factor.
Goodbye golf bags !

The crew can still take 1.4 tonnes of fuel ( which is loads ) and land in waterford well under the max landing weight of 16.5

Don't worry and enjoy the flight

[Tom the Tenor]

The news gets even better. At Cork SLL is fixed again! :D

[bigjim99]

Just about to board.....then it is halted due to being overweight. At least the system works. Appears to be overweight on PAX alone without any bags. RE not sure what to do. Its just been delayed while everyone is arguing! Won't be going anywhere soon. Considering most of this was obvious 5 hours ago why has it just been noticed now and created such chaos?!

[Tom the Tenor]

Time to position an Aer Lingus Airbus over to Manchester to fly everyone to Cork? Dont get me wrong, I like Waterford and have loads of relations there, and should like to see everyone appropriately accommodated but surely there is a time when the Aer Arann connection with Aer Lingus has got to mean something in the real world?

What a to do!

[bigjim99]

Would have made sense to make tonights Man-Ork an A320 as that is also fully booked and just heap it all on that.

They are now bumping 10 PAX off here and transferring to DUB.

Meant to be coming back from ORK tonight.....if I indeed make it over ha ha! What a day!

Oh, the bumped off pax have now returned to the gate! Utter maddness!

[francis omahony]

I think EIR will ruin the best route they operate MAN/ORK hOW LONG MORE MUST WE PUT UP WITH THIS awful service?It dont matter to them how the pax get to cork via DUB/ WAT/SNN OR AT 3AM THE NEXT DAY why is EI putting up with this DISASTER?

[Shamrock350]

Why is EI putting up with this disaster?

Because overall the Aer Lingus Regional franchise has been a huge success, the Aer Lingus brand reaches more regional points in Ireland and the UK than it has done in decades, it makes routes viable that otherwise wouldn't be with A320s and it has increased feed to the long-haul network.

The tech issues are a problem but there isn't much that can be done with an ageing fleet until the new aircraft arrive. Some seem to think Aer Lingus can just pick up a few E-Jets and do the routes themselves with the same level of success but it doesn't work that way. The only thing I would say is that decision making on the ground needs to be better from RE and their ground handlers.

[bigjim99]

Landed into WAT with a big bump, was def a heavy flight. Anyway, the bus that EI has put on for transferring us to Cork has broken down. When will today be over??????

[Aerlingus231]

Keep in mind for such a short hop, fuel load will probably be well under maximum, hence weight probably wasn't an issue...

[lwaw1uk]

G-ZAPN 146 on todays Bournemouth flight from/to Dublin

lee

[bigjim99]

A 146! That makes a nice change! REI and SLN are out of service today due to one reason or another...

[ATR7242]

Its a shame really how RE are letting the standards drop for Aer Lingus, I understand it has increased no's and opened new routes to EI network but you cannot let this happen all the time the -600 are not even agreeed yet might never happen there is nothing signed with ATR yet.

[bigjim99]

EIR was superb in its first year. I was a regular on the DUB-MME flight when the brand was established. It was run by the 4 72-500's and I've never experienced such super punctuality and reliability with any other airline. In the whole time the MME flight ran, I was probably on 80 trips and only was delayed once. The troubles began as the brand started to expand. This meant that the older RE aircraft had to be utilised and the introduction of those awful american birds (sll/m/n). Since then the fleet has been stretched and stretched to a point now where I think there is very little slack in the system creating delays on a daily basis. Having said this, I'd chose EIR over FR anyday!! Hopefully I will have such a choice for a long time to come!

[islandhopper]

New chief operating officer inbound from Ei to sort Re out.

[ATR7242]

@bigjim99 I agree that the -500 did the business but you cannot put a sticky plaster on a big wound as soon as the older 42's and the SLL M N were used the problems have started, a coat of paint inside and out does not help with the constant tech problems which these aircraft suffer day in day out, even if they put a order in for newer aircraft it would be 2013 before even 1 or 2 of them would be in the fleet until then I can see a lot more tech delays and wet leased aircraft been used which takes away from the EI Brand. RE need to up there game, they have and still are loosing experianced pilots and engineers month on month which does not help either.:ugh:

[ATR7242]

Next week it won't be Tech aircraft you have to worry about!!!

Aer Arann passengers could face disruption from next weekend due to pilot strike - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/pilot-strike-may-mean-aer-arann-flight-disruption.html)

[propburner]

It's not Tech aircraft they need worry about

Aer Arann passengers could face disruption from next weekend due to pilot strike - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0720/pilot-strike-may-mean-aer-arann-flight-disruption.html):sad:

[Locker10a]

Management had this a long time coming! Hope its reselved soon though! Aer Lingus regional have enough disruption!

[brian_dromey]

I'm not convinced that the -500s are much better than the SLx series. While they may have spent a lot of time in the US, they spent most of their time away from RE. I've had as many delays on the -500s as anything else in the fleet. I do seem to get lucky on the 201s though, no delays at all!
Frankly, I'm not sure the aircraft are really to blame, although they do seem to have their share of technical delays. Having one or two hot spares in the network seems to have improved things - the 3-4+ hour delays seem not to happen as much. I see they have had a Titan 146 in during the week to cover. The real cause of delays is probably more closely related to 8 sector days with 20-30 minute turns, there is just no time to recover even 10-15 minute ATC delays and they really build throughout the day if that's the way it goes.

[aer lingus]

Strike called off.

[bigjim99]

They'll be waiting a long time for SLM. I meant SLN!

[mart901]

Why so much base swapping I wonder?

[Mlinnie]

How likely is it that next year we could see a Dublin-Inverness route ? maybe 6 flights a week ?
And what about Dublin to Newquay or Dundee ?
And Cork to Cardiff ?

[cornishsimon]

I think we will see EI Regional at NQY fairly soon. The NQY-DUB & ORK routes were well established prior to the close down of Air Southwest.

in fact looking at the caa stats during 2010 SZ carried 10,800 on the DUB route and 4600 on the ORK, with 2011 having over 7000 to DUB and 3000 to ORK prior to the close down of SZ.

EI regional could pick up a decent passenger load at NQY by offering onward connections, considering how badly connected NQY currently is, would there be any difference connecting at DUB compared to LGW or getting the train to LHR ?


cs

[Lord Gumboil Jnr.]

I would like to see SEN - NQY. Just the job for us folks in the South-East to get to spend a few days in Cornwall without the 'delightful' car journey.

[ryan2000]

Cork Plymouth was viable with Brymon from the 1970's to the 21st Century and was also taken up by Air South West. Should do well for EIR or Flybe.

[cornishsimon]

One problem with ORK-PLH would be that PLH is closed !!!!!

As for SEN-NQY, if you look at the caa yearly domestic stats for years gone by it will
Show demand for LON-NQY, which previously sustained a twice daily 738 STN-NQY along with the current LGW services, EIr could operate DUB-NQY-SEN-NQY-DUB


cs

[EI-BUD]

Mlinnie, I don't think we will see Dublin Inverness anytime soon. AerArann did it before during boom time in Ireland and it got axed. Though FR were on ABZ daily. I think EIR will leave capacity to that area of Scotland to a daily flight and enjoy good yield rather than dilute the fare levels with extra capacity. I think Dundee would be good little bolt on to EDI.

NQY would work well as seasonal route say x3 weekly.imho.

I think EIR's next steps will be looking at strong population areas of UK that could feed US flights ex, DUB. Eg NCL, EMA LPL. Bristol has been a good test, FR cut flights to 2daily as did EIR, which shows EIR can carve a niche for itself in competitive markets, while benefiting from EI brand.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Have FR cut DUB-BRS as last time I checked it was 3 daily in summer and winter.

[EI-BUD]

Sorry EI-EIDW. You r correct. I read a leaflet tonight at BRS and it said Frequency on BRS DUB is x2 daily but checking FR website and I see x3. I think EIR is doing ok on d route. Though Brussels Airlines marketing US via BRU....which is what EIR are after via DUB.

[Jamie2k9]

FR would love to drop DUB-BRS to 2 daily and that was the plan but then EI announced 3 daily service and FR readded the third daily service and its only staying because EI are operating it.

I flew with EI last November and both flights were 85%+ full with a few connecting passengers from US on the early morning outbound flight.

[ryan2000]

Newquay and Plymouth are in close proximity so I don't see how the fact that the former is closed should affect the viability of a route from Cornwall to Cork.

[cornishsimon]

I'm actually surprised that EIr hasn't already been enticed to NQY, I'm 99% certain that Cornwall CC who own NQY are trying to offer up deals to re-establish routes left vacant by the demise of SZ.

Dublin and Cork were always popular routes and I would imagine would be more so if marketed correctly.

cs

[Barling Magna]

EI-CBK had to return to SEN today with a non-retractable undercarriage. Roll on those new 72s.....

[MerchantVenturer]

FR would love to drop DUB-BRS to 2 daily and that was the plan but then EI announced 3 daily service and FR readded the third daily service and its only staying because EI are operating it.

Ryanair reduced BRS-DUB to 16 a weekly (2x daily with a 3rd on Mon and Fri) in winter 2010/2011.

When EI announced a 3 x daily BRS-DUB for summer 2011, FR returned to 3 x daily (as Jamie pointed out).

Last winter EI reduced to 2 x daily and carried that over into the current summer.

Ryanair remained at 3 x daily for this summer but in May (there may have been other months as well) the afternoon rotation was non-operational on certain days of the week.

DUB was BRS's most popular route in 2011 with 323,000 passengers.

Are you saying, Jamie, that FR is staying at 3 x daily (nominally at least) simply because EI is on the route with them? If that is the case the assumption must be that FR is either losing money on a 3rd rotation or at least not making the money it wants. It could be seen as Ryanair putting itself in thrall to EI.

[Jamie2k9]

Are you saying, Jamie, that FR is staying at 3 x daily (nominally at least) simply because EI is on the route with them? If that is the case the assumption must be that FR is either losing money on a 3rd rotation or at least not making the money it wants. It could be seen as Ryanair putting itself in thrall to EI.

FR will keep pressure on compitation even if they have to take huge losses as a result. DUB-BRS will most lightly remain at 3 daily for the majority of the time until EI pull off the route or reduce it further. Remenber FR reduced BRS becasoe of charges as Dublin but now even higher charges don't seem to be a problem for the route....

FR are selling seats for the equivalent 25c from Warsaw and Budapest on some routes they compete with Wizz Air on and this is to guarantee that they will be 50% cheaper and they said this had lead to high load factors with very low yield and they say they will keep it up until Wizz drop or reduce. They won't be able to long term.

EI can handle FR very well compared to other carriers. EI regional improves this even more especially comparing the cost of flying a jet verses a ATR.

[bigjim99]

Yet another incident involving CBK (Continuously Broken & Knackered) yesterday with engine trouble on departure out of KIR.

Perhaps more alarming is the claim that there were only 14 PAX onboard!

Link: Incident: Aer Arann AT42 at Kerry on Aug 2nd 2012, engine problem (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=453a5303&opt=0)

[EI-A330-300]

FR will keep pressure on compitation even if they have to take huge losses as a result. DUB-BRS will most lightly remain at 3 daily for the majority of the time until EI pull off the route or reduce it further. Remenber FR reduced BRS becasoe of charges as Dublin but now even higher charges don't seem to be a problem for the route....


Looks like they can't sustain the huge losses as they have dropped from 21 to 14 weekly for winter 2012/13. Not like FR to back down, is it?

[Airbus321-200]

Aer Lingus have been operating BRS since 1936..... they wont back down on this route. Others they would but not BRS.

I fly on the BRS quite often. It isn't a busy route but i've flown on FR with 35 pax on a 737 to BRS.

[dublinaviator]

Aer Lingus have been operating BRS since 1936..... they wont back down on this route. Others they would but not BRS.

You realise they pulled the BRS route a few years ago because of competition from Ryanair yeah?

The only reason they're even on this route now is because its operated by Aer Arann using ATRs. If Aer Lingus were to fly double daily using A320s they wouldn't stand a chance against Ryanair.

[EI-BUD]

when Aer Lingus last operated the DUB BRS route it was by A320 on a daily basis and the loads and yield were abismal.

EI-BUD

[cornishsimon]

iv previously flown BRS-DUB-BRS and been 1 of about 20 onboard in each direction on an A320


cs

[EI-BUD]

And the irony with the poor loads on EI were that their prices were so often as cheap as FR, but the travelling public were not aware of EI being on the route, FR so well established on the route. EI did market it but so much advertising that goes unnoticed...

[MerchantVenturer]

Dublin-Bristol is Aer Lingus's oldest route, first operated from Baldonnel to Whitchurch on 27 May 1936.

Although Aer Lingus has been on the route for much of the time since that day it's by no means an unbroken run.

In the past 15 years or so the route has had ups and downs in terms of carriers and passenger numbers.

Aer Lingus operated it until 2000 with 2 x daily F 50s against Ryanair's 3 x daily B 737-200s that year. For the next three years Ryanair and BA franchisee provided 5 x daily with 737-200s and DH 8-300s/ERJ145s respectively.

2004 saw the end of BA on the route but Aer Lingus returned with a lunchtime/early afternoon rotation at first, I believe, with B 737s (500s?) then A320s that lasted until the end of 2006. They competed with Ryanair at 3 x daily (4 x daily at certain times). In 2005 Air Southwest (DH8-300s) joined FR and EI with a single daily via Newquay both ways for one year.

From 2007 until 2010 Ryanair had the route to itself and at times operated up to 4 x daily. Ryanair then reduced to 16 x weekly in winter 2010/2011 (2 x daily plus additional rotations on Mon and Fri) and at first advertised this as its schedule for summer 2011.

EI regional then announced it was starting at 3 x daily with ATR 72s for summer 2011 which prompted Ryanair to return to 3 x daily itself that summer. Regional cut back to 2 x daily for winter 2011/2012 and maintained this reduced schedule in summer 2012. Ryanair remained at 3 x daily although on some days the afternoon rotation did not always operate. The coming winter currently sees both Ryanair and Regional at 2 x daily.

The total annual passenger numbers from 2000 to 2011 are respectively:

231,000; 242,000; 224,000; 246,000; 254,000; 289,000; 362,000; 351,000; 314,000; 287,000; 268,000; 323,000.

The best year was 2006 with 362,000 which involved Ryanair at 3 x daily (4 x daily M and F) together with the single EI A320 rotation. This year was also boosted by the closure of Ryanair's CWL-DUB route with the erstwhile CWL flights operating from BRS for a while and Ryanair was changing to an all-Boeing 737-800 fleet..

It does seem there is a seemingly never-ending calculation by airlines to find the optimum number of seats on the route.

In 2011 the arrival of EI Regional boosted overall passenger numbers by over 20% but that was less than the percentage gain in seats. That's been the pattern for most of the time since.

Take June 2010 when Ryanair had the route to itself at 3 x daily. 24,742 passengers were flown that month giving an average load of around 137, load factor just above 72%. In June 2012 the total was 25,914 but from 3 daily Ryanair flights and 2 daily EI Regional, meaning the percentage number of seats filled on the route as a whole was in the low 60s.

History suggests that this may not be the last tinkering we shall see on the route as efforts are made to match seats with demand.

All passenger stats quoted are courtesy of the CAA.

[TRY2FLY]

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=453a5303&opt=0

And also same aircraft

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=453bac9d&opt=0

[cork320]

Does anyone know where the second ATR from SNN will be based for the winter or will it be used as a spare aircraft. I assume if it was going to be used for any new routes for the winter schedule it would have been announced by now?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Staff at Waterford Airport had to hold an Aer Lingus Regional flight to London Luton last Thursday as passengers refused to board the aircraft because the majority were watching Katie Taylor flight. The flight was scheduled to depart at 15.00 but was delayed until 16.30 because of fog earlier that day and when passengers were asked to board they refused which forced staff to delay it until 17.00.

[shamrock7seal]

Will the Bournemouth route be double daily for S13?

It is being rumoured on the BOH thread; along with connections to USA.

[Sky Conductor]

Watching Katie Taylor flight?!!!!..what the hell was she doing at Waterford airport flying a plane??..i thought she was at the Olympics boxing!!

[bigjim99]

EI-REI while performing the 7am flight from ORK-MAN this morning suffered a birdstrike on approach to MAN. The strike seems to have occurred on or around engine 2. The following A/C which happened to be EI-SLL inbound from SNN was instructed to go around - presumably so that the runway could be checked for debris.

As a result EI-SLL is running with a delay of approx 40mins. Ei-REI is still grounded with engineers currently inspecting the A/C.

EI-REI is today based in ORK and as a result, there will be significant knock on effect likely across the EIR network.

Will update when I hear more.

[RE-tard]

Hi All

Staff at Waterford Airport had to hold an Aer Lingus Regional flight to London Luton last Thursday as passengers refused to board the aircraft because the majority were watching Katie Taylor flight. The flight was scheduled to depart at 15.00 but was delayed until 16.30 because of fog earlier that day and when passengers were asked to board they refused which forced staff to delay it until 17.00.

Dont believe all you read on face book, no passengers refused to board and the staff were not forced to delay the flight.

The inbound aircraft did not land until 1640. Passengers did not run to the boarding gate when the boarding call was made but the certainally did not refuse to board just went at a snails pace.

[ryan2000]

Return flight from Manchester cancelled. Cork Birmingham flights also cancelled as a result. Cork Edinburgh flights cancelled on Sunday due to some other technical issue. Does Aer Arann have any back up aircraft?

[bigjim99]

I assume that there is a back up aircraft operating the ORK-GLA-ORK service as this is now back showing as on time. Having said that conditions are going to be horrible into ORK this afternoon/evening with gusts upto 50kts. I am due in approx 7pm on the ORK-MAN. An ATR might find it pretty tricky and we may well see many diverts.

EI-REI I believe is currently being ferried back from MAN to ORK so in theory it might be able to do the ork-gla run if it has deemed to be repaired.

[cork320]

Aer Lingus management must be running short of patience with the constant delays and cancellations from EIR. I imagine it must be starting to run thin with the travelling public also. Is there any confirmed dates for the first delivery of the new 600's?

[bigjim99]

The madness has started - EI3633 has been diverted to ORK from SNN. I bet those PAX onboard which were off the cancelled flight to ORK are happy!

Hopefully, we don't see another cancellation on the MAN-ORK-MAN which is normally operated by this diverted A/C.

[bigjim99]

Just for the record EI-REI is still grounded in MAN and has been taken to the parking area.

[Tom the Tenor]

While a bird strike is not of Aer Arann's making and I have a large measure of sympathy for them it beats me why an arrangment with Aer Lingus cannot be in place for extraordinary situations like this with Sunday's cancellations at Cork and now again today. Does EI have some spare capacity to cover for situations either within their own in house operation or to help out their partner at Aer Arann?

Then again, was there not a Portuguese A340 in operation for EI between Dublin and Boston in the last day or so? Hmm.

Hope all the passengers are properly accommodated again before the day is out.

[mathers_wales_uk]

EI-EHH has also been out of action for part of the day as South Wales Aviation Group has reported it diverted into Cardiff en route to Dublin from Bristol this morning.

It has since left Cardiff after approx 5 hours on the ground.

[bigjim99]

REI now fixed and is doing the 4 hour delayed MAN-ORK tonight. So hopeful of getting to my destination with only a 13 hour delay! Menzies at MAN have been as useless as ever. No way of talking to anyone once through security and I have not been offered any meal vouchers. Infact after the first cancellation the only way I could get out of the departures back to the outside world was to stop a friendly looking policeman and ask for his help. I should have hijacked a the OCS truk and driven. Would have been much quicker!

[EI-A330-300]

Think an ATR42 was stranded in Kerry since this morning. To be fair EIR do there best most of them time. Just think you will be on new ATR72-600 by March 2013, well some but most lightly DUB base will be first and then ORK.

[sawtooth]

Just think you will be on new ATR72-600 by March 2013

That's what they used to say about the new 72s. Will the 600 series use the same engine technology (would seem to be the main point of concern given regular engine faults/failures in recent years)?

[chuboy]

No they won't, to my understanding it is an improved variant of the PW127s, increasing STOL performance among other things.

[ryan2000]

The Aer Aran late night flight flight from Birmingham to Cork has diverted to Dublin.

[francis omahony]

And no MAN flight to Cork as the only flight to operate diverted

[mikkie4]

yesterday 3hr delay today 2.5hr delay,anyone know the reason for the late running waterford ATR42 from southend est dept time 23,30.yesterdays dep was 23.55

[Jamie2k9]

Todays Waterford-Luton diverted to Dublin and the inbound only arrived back to WAT a short time ago. Think it may of being weather related yesterday.

[The 5Q]

Tech issues yesterday and today. CPT diverted to Dublin today and changed to BYO

[cork320]

I read on another forum that EIR will be recruiting shortly for Cabin Crew. Does anyone have any details if they are or when or for which bases etc?

[bigjim99]

An Aer Lingus Regional ATR72-212 (EI-SLL or EI-SLM..couldn't see which) was involved in an incident at Manchester on 29/08/2012.

The aircraft was hit by luggage truck which has created enough damage for the A/C to be taken out of service.

As a result, the 17:30 departure from MAN-ORK was cancelled. A replacement aircraft (EI-REL) was ferried from DUB-ORK to complete the ORK-MAN-SNN sectors.

At this moment in time, the incident aircraft remains at the parked at MAN

It would be good if anyone else could shed any light on to what actually happened?

[IrishFlyer2013]

EI-SLM has been scrapped unfortunately. It was involved in an incident in SNN last year.

EI-SLN was the aircraft involved. It is now back in service. It operated REA3723 MAN-ORK today.

[ryan2000]

Aer Aranns' Bristol Dublin flight was canceled today. The passengers were flown to Cork and Shannon and were then bused to Dublin!

[yeo valley]

ei sll went tech in brs. replacement came in from ork. dont no the reg no.

[purplehelmet]

had my first atr-72 flight last friday man-ork on ei-rep and was pleasantly suprised how quiet and smooth the flight was after some reviews id read, interior was clean and newish looking,although a little cramped.
return flight last night however was on ei-sln which looked tired and a bit shabby,we had an aborted takeoff due to a problem with one of the engines and returned to a remote stand so that engineers could take a look.
after about 30mins we were taken off and given a 5euro voucher.
we had a delay of about 3 hours whilest we waited for a replacement aircraft ei-rel to arrive,which although wasn't in such good nik as rep it was a whole lot better than sln. again smooth flight and pleasant and friendly crew.
just thought id share my experiance with you all.

[Cian]

EI-REL/REM/-REO/-REP are the craft they have from their order for new ATRs from a few years ago - the final ones were never delivered.

EI-SLx are all former Delta Connection (I think) birds which do generally seem to be in a mess.

As goes the 42s - waaaah. Think one of them has a new interior, but they're horrendously ancient and really need to go, asap.

[80RPilot]

Both SLN and SLM have the old leather interior, and SLMs one went into CBK.

As for the 42s, they are old, but CPT and BYO have got new interiors, EHH is probably the best of them, the interior is a little old but the airplane is sound.

Purlplehelmet, its good to hear about your experience! Nice to see some good feedback, lets hope that the order for the 72-600s is confirmed over the next couple of days.

I do agree, it is time for a fleet overhaul!

[mart901]

I didn't know CPT and BYO had new interiors, CPT was in a dreadful state when I flew on it last year, they haven't had full EI paint job though have they? What about REI and REH? Do they have new interior?

I can honestly say from a customer service point of view they are great.

[Airbus321-200]

I believe REI has just recieved a cabin upgrade including new seats this week from a friend who flew on it the other day. Not sure about REH.

[mart901]

Thanks for that mate, I should imagine EI have insisted on it. It would also indicate the older aircraft may be around longer, or else why invest in them?

[ryan2000]

Those 3 hour delays on short sectors are not doing their reputation any good.

[Shamrock350]

Has any order for new aircraft been placed? We heard it was inevitable at the Farnborough Air Show and although some reports made it sound official, I don't actually recall RE or ATR confirming it.

The old 42s regularly suffer from tech delays, it mainly seems to be engine issues as well. Aer Lingus want to grow the franchise, management can't stress enough how successful it's been but there's nothing they can do until new aircraft arrive and the older fleet is replaced.

[Cyrano]

Has any order for new aircraft been placed? We heard it was inevitable at the Farnborough Air Show and although some reports made it sound official, I don't actually recall RE or ATR confirming it.

The ATR CEO confirmed (http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines-components/news/aer-arann-take-eight-atr-72-600s-0711) that "an agreement had been reached" but no formal order has yet been signed. We'll see...

[80RPilot]

REH is still as is, but REI has had an interior upgrade. All the 42s were repainted with the exception of EHH, (which Ive heard is going back very soon).

First of the 600s due to arrive in early 2013. I think both SLN and SLL will be the first to be chopped.

Your right about the 42s, they do seem to go tech all the time, probably due to low level of automation in them, no EECs, leaving the pilots to set torque manually! This has led to a lot of money spent this year on overtorques!

[purplehelmet]

ryan2000.
thats very true,infact i heard a few grumbles from other passengers who must use them regularly complaining about the reliability issues.
for me personally it wasn't a big problem as i was returning from a weekend break and didnt have to go to work the next day,so i was happy to sink a couple more pints of guiness:ok:. but id imagine it cant have been much fun for the business travellers who had to go to work the next day after arriving back at man at gone midnight.
(forgot to add in my first post) a few spare seats on outward journey and full load on return.

[bigjim99]

Can confirm that REI has had new seats installed. They are much better than those new ones installed on some of the 42's. They are the same design as those on the new 72-600's and recline. I guess that means that we shall see REI & REH for a good bit longer. It maybe coincidence but I haven't seen REH this week so may be in for refit. Presumably EI paint will follow. It probably makes sense as from what I remember of the SLx class there lease is coming up next year? Maybe wrong on that. That said, the reliability of the 201s is greater, they are more favoured with pilots and I have a feeling that they are owned by Arann? If I was EIR, when the new 600's are available, I would use the two 201's as low cost standbys, and dispose of the american birds. As for the 42's I can't imagine them being dispensed with. There are a number of routes that only call for a 42....so why increase the cost of these routes by putting on a more expensive a/c to run and land. They would also need the cost of putting another cabin crew onboard. Also why would they have painted CBK? It has to be staying.

Whilst on the subjects of seating, if anyone is planning to travel EIR, then avoid seat 15A on EI-REH (Constant drip on your head throughout the flight - observed for many months now) and 16A on EI-SLL (Broken back - it only supports one side of the upright so you are constantly stuck at an uncomfortable angle. Also row 18 on SLL & SLM are rather uncomfortable as they have been shoved in. They don't recline and are a lot more upright, plus you dont have a reading light.

[cork320]

The Wikipedia pages for both Cork and Shannon Airports are this morning showing all EI Regional flights as ending 30Mar13. I assume this is not the case and someone has made this assumption based on the fact that the EI Regional timetables for summer 13 are not yet published and they have been published for EI mainline?

[Jack1985]

Wikipedia

It's the most un-reliable source of information on the web! Who cares!? The routes are not ending its just another internet loner with nothing better to do.

[EI-A330-300]

Ireland (http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/ireland-s-aer-arann-double-size-1002?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AtwDailyNews+%28ATW+Daily+News%29)

[rowly6339]

Sounds like good news to me :ok:

[vkid]

Aer Arann to suspend Waterford services | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/aer-arann-to-suspend-waterford-services-573041.html)

Bad news for the South East.

[RE-tard]

Usual PR twaddle,

It was clear from this evaluation that our Waterford routes have not performed to a sustainable level.

Wonder why they did not highlight that they are selling one of their 500 to get some cash in. Waterford base closing due to lack of aircraft and not just route performance.

When you drop a sucessful Luton service for Southend what do you expect?

[BlueSki]

Where did it say their selling an ATR72-500? Sad to here. Will they sell off the Waterford based ATR42?

[sawtooth]

WAT figures have been falling this year, but still a surprise. I guess RE experiment has served it's purpose at SEN, can't help but think they LTN alone could have thrived, airport statment says as much...
http://www.waterfordairport.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=243&Itemid=200.

Leaving just 1 route from WAT BE - BHX who will be their last hope now to take over LTN. If not this could be the end for WAT, they have lost PTC business, barely broke even last year with subsidy, and SE region is struggling economically. Having effectively closed GWY/SXL based on poor commercial prospects it will be difficult for the Transport Minister to justify favouring WAT now.

[BHD2BFS]

I wonder if this will be replaced by a new Belfast base, they said a few weeks ago in a press release that they plan to concentrate on regional routes from Belfast

[Jamie2k9]

WAT figures have been falling this year,

They have increased over the last few months but do need to check that.

There was a rumour about a month ago don't know how credible it was that EI wanted LTN to be back 2 daily and SEN to drop to 3/4 weekly.

As Flybe seem to be doing ok on BHX then I would say MAN will follow but London will be a hard one as BE would need to base at WAT to operate a good schedule and that costs mone, other than them I can't see a carrier.

Aer Arann is one of the worst run airlines I have ever come accross. I'm sure the sales of ART42/72 sale will go towords paying for the new aircraft.

When you drop a sucessful Luton service for Southend what do you expect?

Couldn't agree more.

[Barling Magna]

It always seemed strange to me for SEN to have services to the west as part of its initial growth. Why fly over London in order to travel back into it? There might be sufficient traffic to sustain a Dublin link, but Galway and Waterford....? Apart from the obvious Mediterranean services SEN's advantage lies in flights to the east, surely.....

[Shamrogue]

When SEN turned up from WAT, did all of us "Armchair" route planners not ask "WTF?"

WAT routes are thin-ish. LTN works well, a new airline will obviously pick up the route and run with the ball. Strategy you can understand, work on SEN, DUB obviously has enough pax to make that route work, ORK perhaps also. WAT on the other hand needs volume cities such as LTN to work into. MAN being dropped due to a/c being redeployed.
A network carrier will march in, take on WAT-LTN, WAT - MAN and away ye go. Yes it'll mean basing an a/c there, but it's worked.

Now to speculate "WHO"? Eastern? Flybe maybe building on strategy, already becoming known in the South East.

Regards
Shamrogue

[EI-A330-300]

Airport CEO has said they havebeing talking to Flybe over last few weeks and its ongoing.

[Barling Magna]

It's hard to tell the effect that the move to SEN had because of the severity of the economic recession in Ireland, and in the UK too. But here are some figures, choosing September as a month to compare over the past four years:

Year
09/2009 LTN: 6631 SEN: 0 TOTAL: 6631
09/2010 LTN: 5137 SEN: 0 TOTAL: 5137
09/2011 LTN: 1551 SEN: 2477 TOTAL: 4028
09/2012 LTN: 2081 SEN: 2595 TOTAL: 4676

So numbers dropped by 23% between 2009 and 2010, without SEN being involved at all, then by 22% between 2010 and 2011 when SEN was introduced, with a 16% growth between 2011 and 2012.

So, as I said at the beginning, it's hard to tell whether the move to SEN had a major effect; would the downward trend at LTN seen between 2009 and 2010 have continued into 2011? All you can say is that traffic from both airports to Waterford was increasing this year.......

[RE-tard]

So numbers dropped by 23% between 2009 and 2010, without SEN being involved at all

Some this was directly due to the service being reduced for a 70 seater ATR72 to a 48 seater ATR42. In 2009 RE were operating 3X daily for June to Sept on Luton.

[compton3bravo]

Sad news - but most of us on here said it would not work splitting the London loads between Luton and Southend. Flybe could operate the Luton route without needing to base an aircraft with the aircraft coming from IOM or Jersey on a W pattern - that is if they want to of course. The only reason we all know about the Southend service is that Stobart put money into RE and of course Southend Airport but didn´t somebody tell them it doesn´t work like that in the harsh aviation world - obviously not or they chose to ignore it - probably the latter. Carlisle-Southend forget it!

[FRatSTN]

FlyBe are now in Waterford with a Birmingham route. I dare say they will add something, Manchester probably most likely for them.

[Mayfly1]

I hope your right, but it's difficult to see Flybe take up the Manchester route when EIR could not make it work. Flybe also have their own financial challenges and are not currently in the risk taking mode.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

I hope your right, but it's difficult to see Flybe take up the Manchester route when EIR could not make it work. Flybe also have their own financial challenges and are not currently in the risk taking mode.

They are doing BHX and MAN would be more profitable so MAN is almost certain IMO. A london route would require a base in WAT which is a 2 daily LTN was started by them it would work well. We won't see LGW form them as LGW are trying to push carriers out with less than 150 seater aircraft.

Now I don't even if it is possible with runway in WAT but could an EZY A319 operate restricted on a 1433m runway. I know way to big aircraft however with lower fares passengers would fill it. If possible it would be a great way for EZY to get back into Irish market as they could not be touched by Ryanair etc. I know very unlightly to happen though.

[j636]

Easyjet operate form Jersey which is 1706m, which is only 273m longer than Waterford, I'm no expert but I would say it is possible.

[BlueSki]

If you had 156 pax plus baggage that wouldn't take off from WAT. No way.

[EI-BUD]

A very sad day for Waterford given that had only got the EI brand last summer was a positive development. However, I would suggest that Waterford pays its way for Aer Arann but Dublin and the expanding business under Aer Lingus regional from UK provincial airports is now seen as a more attractive proposition, unfortunately the regional airport bears the brunt of this. Hopefully they can fill the gap with at least a daily Luton rotation.

EI-BUD

[EI-BUD]

Irish Laddie,

There really is no other airline in the fold that could do this in my view successfully, ideally the runway could accomodate 319 and hence easyJet assuming easyJet wanted to do it, but that is not worth talking about.

BE would ideal as you say and they are coming up against a lot of challenges on many routes, and a route such as this is most unlikely to attract competition, and these are the regional niche type markets that BE should be after, developing same.

Current operation is small ex LTN so to get a day return to London area would require a night stop or a small base.....

EI-BUD

[irish laddie]

Agree completely, aside from Flybe there wouldent seem to be many other mainstream operators avaialble.

I know a base from day 1 would be unliklely but I think I'm right in saying that prior to the WAT RE base opening in 2007, there were twice daily WAT-LTN flights operating in a W pattern from Galway. Off the top of my head departures from WAT were around 1130 and 1730.

Been flying through WAT for years but was just so impressed by the Dash 8 on WAT-BHX it would be fantastic to have them on WAT-LTN in the not too distant future.

[LTNman]

LTN-WAT was once Aer Arran's most successful route. Along comes Stobart the company that can do no wrong and kills off their best route all for nothing.

[sxflyer]

Rose-tinted spectacles there LTNman, you don't know that the route would have done much better from LTN. I mean, businesses aren't stupid - if there was big money to be made from WAT-LTN, Arann/EIR would have gone back. SEN is now successful enough for Stobarts to not worry about it.

Yes, at one time LTN-WAT was probably doing great but things have moved on...the Irish economy has gone to pot, UK leisure travel has declined and there is improved access between Waterford & Dublin

As an aside, historically Essex has been the terminus of WAT flights, not LTN. LTN only ended up with the route because it is where Euroceltic(?) set up and when they went Arann carried on.

[LTNman]

They were doing alot better from Luton, as the route had run for years and was Aer Arann's biggest money earner. Waterford Airport was horrified when the route shifted and their worst fears have now come true.

Stobart invested in Aer Arran as it needed an airline to operate out of Southend and that all Stobart had to do was shift business away from Luton to Southend and the passengers would follow except they didn’t and numbers plummeted. I assume this was because they found Southend Seaside Airport to be too difficult to get to with extended travel times compared to their trips to Luton. It would seem that Waterford passengers don't live close to Southend.


As an aside, historically Essex has been the terminus of WAT flights, not LTN. LTN only ended up with the route because it is where Euroceltic(?) set up and when they went Arann carried on.


I stand to be corrected but that statement is not true. Ryanair introduced the route to Luton which they used to operate into Gatwick. To my knowledge it has never operated from any airport in Essex until it moved to Southend around 18 months ago.

[EI-BUD]

LTNman,

Morning, Yes Ryanair's first ever flight in 1985 was from Waterford Airport to London Gatwick. This was operated by an Embraer Bainderante, which was nice aircraft! Complete with a 3 R's on the tail as the FR logo.

This operated for some time moving to HS748s and then onto ATR beyond that. It was operated to LTN most of the time until it eventually in 1991 was transferred to STN when the new terminal opened (it may have moved a little later, but 1991 was the date for the shift of focus from LTN over to STN for FR).

Manx Airlines in the guise of British Airways express operated a daily J41 to STN from Waterford in the 90's a while after FR pulled the route, which FR did as the ATR was being withdrawn. The STN route by FR operated from 1991, at a point when FR had one ATR left, which did GWY STN and WAT STN. The single airport did multiple flights each day.

Aside from STN and LTN and the initial LGW WAT has had Aer Lingus daily SH6 for a few years on the Dublin route, approx late 80s and Euroceltic did the same routes plus UK routes for a brief period.

Lets hope some good news comes quickly.
EI-BUD

[840]

LTNMan,

Routes change. For a ling time, RE's most profitable route was ORK-DUB. While Ryanair's entry on to the route was the ultimate cause of them leaving it, they haven't come back on now the route is vacant.

[Red Four]

LTNman said They were doing alot better from Luton, as the route had run for years and was Aer Arann's biggest money earner. Waterford Airport was horrified when the route shifted and their worst fears have now come true.

LTNman seems to have a particular 'bee in his bonnet' about London Southend.

Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298

As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.

As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.

In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.

Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)"plummetted" because of the SEN effect, rather the reverse it could be argued, although still a major loss of traffic on the route.

So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.

I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.

If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.

4

[Jamie2k9]

LTNman seems to have a particular 'bee in his bonnet' about London Southend.

Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298

As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.

As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.

In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.

Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)
Quote:
"plummetted"
because of the SEN effect, rather the reverse it could be argued, although still a major loss of traffic on the route.

So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.

I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.

If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.



You are not factoring in that the base was reduced to an ATR 42 and flights opereted combined with GWY flights for a time due to low loads from Galway. WAT airport also closed for a number of weeks in Jan and Feb in 2011 for runway works. I accept passenger numbers have dropped but the large fall is not due downturn its due to RE operating a large number of flights with GWY passengers. 1 for every 10 seats out of GWY was empty. All you will have to do is look at yeild and LTN would be much higher than SEN anyday. Then it was operating around 20 weekly in 2008. RE were alble to fill two ARR72's on weekendes in 2010/11 but when SEN started they can't even fill two ATR42.

Routes change. For a ling time, RE's most profitable route was ORK-DUB. While Ryanair's entry on to the route was the ultimate cause of them leaving it, they haven't come back on now the route is vacant

Indeed but RE came out and said that the WAT-LTN was there most profitable the airline had.

[Geeooo73]

Hi,

Quick query regarding the ATRs - had my first two flights on them this weekend GLA-DUB-GLA, is it just a perception issue due to their ground clearance, or are they actually taxied like an F1 car?

Enjoyed the ride, if not the security queues at DUB T1!

[Mayfly1]

Hi all, just observing the Waterford situation from the outside and the various commentary from both the airline and airport concerned, it looks like Waterford airport is suffering from the same demise as Galway did with passengers moving away gradually from regional airports with turboprop services to airports offering a wider choice of usually more competitive jet services with higher frequencies. The demise is further compounded with improving road infrastructure and more competitive parking etc at Dublin and to a lesser degree Cork.
Without continuing significant core operational support from government and the pso's it looks like it will be the end of most if not all so called regional airports, I hope I'm wrong.

[chuboy]

Quick query regarding the ATRs - had my first two flights on them this weekend GLA-DUB-GLA, is it just a perception issue due to their ground clearance, or are they actually taxied like an F1 car?


Just perception mate, those ATRs sit pretty close to the ground. You get used to seeing the apron from the seat of a 320 or 737 or larger, but you have to remember you can be sitting 9-15ft above the ground rather than just a couple!

[Geeooo73]

Chuboy - cheers, thought as much to be honest. It was only when the skipper tried to slide us onto the active at DUB I started to have my doubts!

[EI-A330-300]

Authority to look at Aer Arann takeover - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 27, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1127/1224327142333.html#.ULR_fT6Lnzg.twitter)

10 new ATR to the fleet.

[bigjim99]

Any ideas whats up with the two Cork based birds tonight? Believe one is stuck in Cork and the other in Glasgow..... Both Manc and Glasgow(inbound) flights down as cancelled!

I know EI-SLN has been based there pretty much for the last fortnight - I guess it is too much to ask for that old lady not to go tech on a regular basis! Women! :)

I'm flying on one of them first thing so usually like to anticipate a problem before it happens. EIR cope fairly well with one A/C out of service....but the fleet isnt big enough to cope with two or three failures. With any luck I might be sat on the Titan Avro tomorrow :D

[Jamie2k9]

Competition authority to allow Stobart acquire 40% of RE.

[davidjohnson6]

I understand that Aer Arann are in need of cash and are doing so by taking Stobart on as an investor.
I don't understand why Stobart believe a large minority stake in a small regional airline like Aer Arann is a good investment for what is essentially a logistics + airport management company.

Could someone who is familiar with the set-up (don't just give a random guess - I can do that too) explain the business logic behind this please ?

[Expressflight]

davidjohnson6

I suspect there will be more people who agree with your assessment than are able to supply an answer to your question - me among them. It does seem a strange move, especially now that EIR are no longer as important to SEN as they were 18 months ago. Has the size of Stobart's additional investment in RE been revealed yet?

[Cyrano]

I understand that Aer Arann are in need of cash and are doing so by taking Stobart on as an investor.
I don't understand why Stobart believe a large minority stake in a small regional airline like Aer Arann is a good investment for what is essentially a logistics + airport management company.

Could someone who is familiar with the set-up (don't just give a random guess - I can do that too) explain the business logic behind this please ?

Add me to the "bemused" list too, but just a small point of information: the Irish competition authority has cleared Stobart to take sole control, not a minority stake:
The Competition Authority: News & Publications » News Releases » Competition Authority clears Stobart acquisition of Aer Arann (http://www.tca.ie/EN/News--Publications/News-Releases/Competition-Authority-clears-Stobart-acquisition-of-Aer-Arann-.aspx?page=1&year=0)

[nighthawk117]

Aer Arran are a transportation company, as are Stobarts.

Their aim was to develop Carlisle and presumably Southend airports into cargo hubs, allowing them to send cargo to and from Europe by air, on their own cargo airline. Far easier to buy an existing carrier and launch cargo flights, than to try and get their own AOC. Obviously Aer Arran were available at a good price, and Stobarts jumped at the chance.

[mart901]

The additional stake has always been on the cards, they had the option from the outset. I dont see freight is the only interest, or else why build a passenger terminal and rail station.

[LGS6753]

I see little synergy, having been a senior manager in a haulage company. The client base is totally different, self-loading freight buys its own tickets one by one, Stobart's freight clients sign up multi-year multi-million £ contracts. Also, haulage is far less regulated, has lower capital requirements, shorter-life assets, etc.

I presume they can find a logic, but I can't.

[Jamie2k9]

Stobart have more money than sense..IMO

[bigjim99]

Stobart will have a plan......a company of that size wont't make such an investment without one. It is much easier to buy an airline than start one from scratch.

There might not be significant cross over between Stobart and Arann but I honestly believe that Arann could be a viable business as a standalone. Stobart have a huge marketing presence in the UK and Ireland. Arann and Aer Lingus are useless at marketing in the UK. I would say that most UK people are oblivious to their operations (unless from London/Manc/Edin). People automatically think Ryanair when they need to travel to Ireland. As a regular commuter on EIR mainly from MME, BLK and MAN the local population at MME and BLK don't/didn't know they could fly locally to Dub. During the 1 year they flew to MME, I only ever saw 1 advertisement and I would consider myself their target audience. That advertisement was in the arrivals hall in MME.....which meant that there was about a 50% chance you had just arrived on the service they were advertising. Stobart have a huge following in the UK and Ireland.

Where it would tie in with the Stobart ops would be the introduction of freighters. I assume because they have a couple of airports already they are already flying stuff through a third party airlines? I am pretty positive that they fly freight out of Carlisle. You add a couple of freighters to the Arann fleet then there is a good area of business to target...clients of jet2 freight like Royal Mail. If Stobart freight wanted to really branch into Europe hard then an air service would be of great benefit. Who knows, the big plan could even be something as mad as to get into a TNT/DHL style operation however I doubt that.

They could also go into charters - they have many corporate connections they could really diversify into anything they want and get away with it!

I think the investment of Stobart in SEN will prove golden to them.......it won't be instant but over the next 5-10 years it will establish itself. Carlisle airport perhaps isnt in such a good place. As much as I hate NCL, it is very easily accessible from most of the north via road and rail.

I belong to a consortium that was for a little while in discussion with acquiring Air Southwest when they went belly up. I know its a few years ago but I am sure there was talk of Stobart being interested in them so there has to be some kind of plan to acquire an airline - that hasn't just happened overnight.

Alot may depend on if FR take over EI and where that would leave the franchise agreement? Anyone have an idea on that? I would hate to lose EIR!

Anyway I am currently sat in MAN waiting for the ORK bird to arrive nearly 3 hours late....Last nights was cancelled.....Stobart have an uphill battle on their hands if they don't want to invest in something that will damage their reputation. No sign of the free vouchers as per....Menzies are very good at hiding!

[Hangar6]

I think EIR will do well for Stobart, twoimmediate issues ,finance and fresh airplanes , both appear sorted now so we can expect improvements in the operation ,I agree Stobart is no mug and there is a plan

EI have just moved their Chief Pilot over to EIR as COO so we can expect a more robust operation with the new planes and increased fleet size , plus two

EI will not be taken over by FR

[dublinaviator]

I really doubt Stobart have any plan for Aer Arann. It suited them to invest in them during their examinership a couple of years ago because it gave them a vehicle on which to launch their 'new look' Southend airport. Given that Southend now has several other operators using the airport including easyJet, it has served it's purpose.

I think Stobart increasing it's stake is more to do with it recovering it's investment than using it as part of some strategy to increase it's presence in the airline market. Stobart will be investing a lot of money that will be used to allow Aer Arann purchase new ATR 72 aircraft, and this comes with a lot of risk, and taking up their option to increase their stake makes sense as it provides them with greater security in the face of such risk while also allowing them to recoup their investment quicker.

[Hangar6]

Agreedthere plan is to recover and orprotect their investment ,they are no mugs

[Ph1l1pncl]

Bigjim99 you mention As much as I hate NCL, it's very easily accessible by road from much of the North via road and rail

What is it that ou dislike about the airport?

[propburner]

Aer Arann has no cash flow of its own it relies on Aer Lingus for its Cash so Stobart investment will allow Arann to maybe buy newer Aircraft, which are badly needed if they are to provide the service which Lingus would require from them,lately tech issues and delays are damaging this product.:ugh:

[EI-A330-300]

From 7 Jan SNN base changes from an ATR72 to 42 (one at WAT) until 30 March. Also means a capacity reduction on NOC service. ATR72 returns at start of summer schedule on 31 March.

[SWBKCB]

I am pretty positive that they fly freight out of Carlisle.

No they don't - their biz jet uses it quite often, but no regular air transport movements. The Carlisle airport plans seems to be an opportunity get permission for a new road depot, their aviation plans for CAX seem nonsensical. Also, there seems to be little interest in developing freight at SEN.

[mart901]

I'm sure the 42 is coming out of WAT because that's when the base closes. SEN has a 42 based. BHX looking to have a 72 based from June, from where I've no idea.

[iwak]

This is where re go wrong downsizing routes when it's not justified , it's really going to help pax numbers by putting an old tatty 42 on snn and noc !

The based aircraft at bhx will be an overnight from Dublin from what I make out from the schedule.

[mart901]

I do agree iwak RE have butchered a few routes, however the 42 is only down for SNN & NOC until March and both routes are struggling a bit pax wise since winter. I'm certain all but EHH have had at least an interior refit with leather seats although I'm sure someone can confirm. I'd watch this space with the BHX based a/c, I think there is more in the pipeline there, whether it will land up a totally EIR route to DUB or something else such as BHD route launch but the flights are listed separately and priced up above the EI flights, which is the usual deterrent when they intend to make changes.

[Cian]

One of the -42s has a new interior from memory, if its that one that's based it isn't going to be a "tatty" -42, just a tiny -42....

[MARKEYD]

Aer Lingus Regional have been at Bournemouth now for 8 months with the following loads per month

May 2237 41 pax
June 2454 49 pax
July 2556 47 pax
Aug 2896 54 pax
Sep 2470 49 pax
Oct 2200 41 pax
Nov 1620 45 pax ( reduced to 4 flights a week in winter )

Not bad for a new service re starting after many years of Ryanair on the route does anyone think they may increase the schedule or are these figures pretty much what would be expected on a new route start up ?

[EI-A330-300]

Those figurea explan why the ATR42 will operate the route for the summer

[MARKEYD]

Sorry did not see that , makes sense though

Great to see connections finally onto New York , Chicago and Boston all at good times , lets hope people use it

[bananamanuk]

I believe the interiors of CBK (flying in full EIR colours), CPT & BYO (hybrid) have all been upgraded. Having flown on aircraft with the upgraded interior it was noticeably better, slimline leather effect seats gave more legroom. Side panels etc had been resprayed, and they'd had added noise dampening insulation added.

[Vapor]

Still nothing from EIR about a DUB-LPL service? I would have expected this by now.
FR do not offer anything like the frequency they did 10-15 years ago and i think it's a perfect route for EIR.
I think there is good connecting potential too for EI.

[Hangar6]

Agreed , you may recall EI were forced to leave LPL one of its oldest routes as FR at the time were bankrupt and for sale , pre MOL ,

The then GVT made STN and LPL exclusive to FR , this rule has lapsed but it probably has ruined LPL for EI for now , better to get Manchester on a higher frequecny , even BLK as once EI go to LPL you will get a very quick sharp FR reaction and no airline wants to incur a bloodbath at the moment .

But I have fond memories of the BAC 1-11 at Speke, three times daily and yes the APEX fare was even affordable ....

[bigjim99]

I see that EI-REH has now been refitted to with the new cabin interior same as EI-REI over the past couple of weeks. Which I guess can only mean that these two ageing birds will likely remain with the fleet rather than being replaced by any new a/c. It is all well fitting nice new interiors but thats just papering over the cracks. REH was forced to divert on 30th Dec due to tech issues and also went tech twice yesterday in Cork.

With the winter nights, it has been a while since I have seen REH in the daylight but yesterday she looked ghastly. Paintwork worn to hell on the wing tips and rudder, rust streams along the flap fairings, black body from fumes, patched up wing de-ice boots, lots of fogged windows and numerous scab patches around the rear door and it still drips water on seat 15A! Agreed these points don't stop an aircraft from being airworthy - but sitting aboard it with that head numbing drone of the old engines wondering if it is going to hold together isn't the nicest feeling in the world. Does EI really want to be associated with these heaps?

From my time spent at RAF Kinloss on the Nimrods and also VC-10's I am aware that with good maintenance there is no reason why aircraft the age of the older RE aircraft can't last the same time again. The alarming rate in which some of these aircraft are failing should ask questions about what RE do in terms of preventative maintenance - everything just seems to be a quick fix as there is very little slack in the system to love and care for the fleet at an age when they need it most!

The more tech issues the greater risk of a catastrophic failure by either man or machine. The tech guys at RE are great......but they are human and mistakes can happen - silly little things such as Tuninter Flight 1153.

Instead of trying to push more and more routes, they should concentrate on doing the ones that they have and making a good job on them. If there is no way of making the fleet more reliable, then reduce the number of routes and have more spare aircraft on standby so that at the very least very few flights need to be cancelled rather than on a daily basis. Alternatively, can they not make an agreement to use any of EI's hot spare A320's in case of mounting delays? Would soon help to cut the delay!

Does anyone know if RE actually confirmed the order for the new 600s' yet?

[brian_dromey]

I suspect that new interiors mean the aircraft is staying for the foreseeable. It looks like any new aircraft will be for growth and hopefully to allow more operational spares.

As with the poster above I suspect much of the fleet suffered from lack of preventative maintenance in the period running up to and during the examinership. My experience suggests that any aircraft in the fleet is equally likely to go tech, the -500s are as bad and they are much newer.

[missing byte]

By all accounts the first of the new craft is arriving in May with six more to follow before the end of the year.

[dublinaviator]

By all accounts the first of the new craft is arriving in May with six more to follow before the end of the year.

The order hasn't been confirmed, so where are you getting that from?

[onyxcrowle]

Wasn't there a crash involving death ice boots and an Atr ?. I thought there was a directive about making sure that system was up to scratch ?

[EI-A330-300]

The order hasn't been confirmed, so where are you getting that from?

Weather its confirmed or not (I don't know) but there are getting an aircraft in May and another in end of July/early August.

This is why extra BHX-DUB not starting till June.

[onyxcrowle]

Edit to my post , de ice boots. , (bloody mobile autcorrect)

[shamrock7seal]

I think you were right to call them death ice boots!!

[bigjim99]

ATRs have been in a number of incidents involving icing. There have been modifications to the de-icing equipment and to date I only think there has been one incident since the modifications.

I know I was sat on the tarmac in Manchester the other week in EI-SLL and I questioned the captains judgement not to get sprayed on the ground. It was blooming cold (Metar said 2 deg c an hour earlier in the evening), there was water everywhere on the ground and over the a/c and a low misty fog. It was clear that they were shortly expecting sub zero temps -The runways/taxiways were being treated and there were anti-ice trucks sat around with drivers in. When I asked the question to the CC she did get in contact the captain. She then politely reminded me that 'the captain knows what he is doing'. We then took off it appeared the PF was using the take off procedure in icing conditions - a steady and cautious application of power and leaving the tarmac much further down the runway at a greater speed than normal.

Anyway I am still alive so I guess he does know what he is doing. Certainly after reading up on all of the incidents involving the ATR in icing conditions I spent most of the flight staring at the wings ha!

But what are the conditions that would require and a/c to be anti-iced? and do you have to re-spray after each flight?

[80RPilot]

BigJim,

Aer Arann is a very safe airline, and no crew would take off with Ice on the aircraft, It simply would not happen. The cabin crew know the correct procedure to be followed, and they know what to do if its not being followed by the flight crew.

The crew probably did use Icing procedures for departure, but you cant make a statement like;

leaving the tarmac much further down the runway at a greater speed than normal

I think the term de-icing fluid should give you a hint, you only use it if there is contamination frozen to the airplane. As it was 2 Degrees, and you said there was "Water" everywhere, its very likely that nothing was starting to freeze.

De-Icing fluid is upto 7quid a litre in places.

If the temperature is less than 5 degrees and there is visible moisture in the air below the acceleration altitude (MAN is 900ft), you must take special Icing procedures on takeoff.

This is purely a precaution, you may not actually pick up ice untill much higher than that. Thats probably why you were doing a much greater speed.

The two do not relate, De-Icing and an Icing Procedure takeoff, I don't want to confuse you, but theres another procedure to be followed if you have to use De-Icing fluid.

The fluid gets into all the areas of the controls and lets just say it doesn't lubricate them, most airlines will have both pilots "Pull" on rotation to aid the force.

There are no risks taken! It is a business at the end of the day. Can you imagine going back to your responsible person in your airline saying you spend 800euro on deicing fluid that wasn't required because a passenger said they weren't happy to go?

[mikkie4]

last flight from SEN to waterford tomorrow(sun),shame to see them go,maybe they will come back with other destinations.

[The Flying Cokeman]

80RPilot,

No crew would take off with ice on the wings!?

For what it is worth I can think of one incident with RE where someone took off without being de-iced and momentarily lost control out of GWY about 8-9 years ago, as far as I am aware this pilot is still in the company.

[NABLAG]

End of an era as O Ceidigh quits Aer Arann - Irish, Business - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/end-of-an-era-as-o-ceidigh-quits-aer-arann-3364318.html)

Padraig O Ceidigh – the Galwayman synonymous with Aer Arann for nearly 20 years – has ended his association with the airline, resigning as a director and chairman of the group.

It marks the end of an era for Aer Arann and Mr O Ceidigh, who acquired a majority stake in the carrier in 1994 and became a beacon for entrepreneurs in Ireland and abroad.

Severing his links with Aer Arann comes just as UK transport group Stobart has secured complete control of the airline.

Stobart invested in the carrier just over two years ago as part of a deal to help Aer Arann exit examinership. Aer Arann got into severe financial difficulties that were exacerbated by the Icelandic volcanic eruption in 2010. Its creditors were owed close to €30m. The airline had lost €6m in 2008, the same amount in 2009, and had lost another €6m in the first eight months of 2010.

A rescue package included investment from Mr O Ceidigh, Stobart and Tim Kilroe Jnr, the son of former Aer Arann majority owner Tim Kilroe Snr.
But Stobart subsequently moved to take full ownership of the airline. Before Christmas, the Competition Authority cleared a planned transaction where Stobart would acquire sole control of Aer Arann.

Mr O Ceidigh was not contactable yesterday. However, it is understood that he ended his involvement with Aer Arann primarily for personal reasons. Aer Arann declined to comment yesterday, but is expected to make an announcement next week.

Control
That announcement is likely to confirm Stobart's complete control of Aer Arann and an update of its strategy for the carrier. Stobart owns London Southend Airport and is the UK's biggest logistic firm. Aer Arann operates flight between Southend and Dublin. It recently terminated services from Waterford.

Early this week, there was a boardroom coup at Stobart that was backed by major shareholders. The company is now lining up to sell some of its businesses, but Aer Arann could be seen as a good strategic fit for the group.
Last year, Aer Arann stopped using its own name on its small clutch of aircraft. That decision came just over two years after it inked an agreement with Aer Lingus to operate some Aer Arann flights under the 'Aer Lingus Regional' brand. All Aer Arann flights now fly under the 'Aer Lingus Regional' banner.

Aer Arann, whose interim chief executive is Sean Brogan, has also been eyeing up fresh investment in aircraft.

The most recent traffic figures from Aer Lingus show that Aer Lingus Regional carried 84,000 passengers in December – 34pc more than it did in December 2011. It carried a total of 1.01 million passengers last year, a third more than it did in 2011. That is close to 10pc of the total carried by Aer Lingus.
- John Mulligan

[Mlinnie]

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0211/367204-aer-arann-extends-aer-lingus-deal-until-2022

[Red Four]

Shouldn't this thread be merged with the Aer Arann one?

[mart901]

Be interesting to see how FR respond to EI/EIR ramping up frequency to 5x MAN-DUB and 6x BHX-DUB. They seem to have backed down in the case of ABZ and scaled back BRS and PIK. Not sure if they will take this one lying down.

[Jamie2k9]

FR have scaled back on BHX, MAN, EDI since November (although no change to S13 as yet) so there will be no response as the charges at DUB cost of fuel means FR will not operate flights that will carry major losses to make a point anymore and particularly as its against Aer Lingus a carrier which has no problems competing with FR.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Aer Arann plans to join Europe's top tier of regional airlines by 2015 and to double its passenger numbers to over 2 million in five years the company has said today.

Fleet renewal programme:the airline will be taking delivery of eight new aircraft. The new aircraft, ATR 72-600s, will replace the older existing fleet of ATR72-200s and ATR42s. The first new plane will commence service this May, with the remaining aircraft expected for delivery over the next 11 months. The new fleet will be fully operational in time for the Summer 2014 programme;

Source (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/aer-arann-announces-new-beginning-at-the-airline/)

[eick320]

Champions league match.

[EI-A330-300]

Interestingly, there was a Man-Dub flight today that operated under a 4 digit 'EIR' flight number even though it was operated by a mainline A320.

It wasn't under EIR number, it was an extra scheduled flight which was EI2xxx, EI use 2xxx for any extra scheduled flights. EIR is 3xxx.

The reduction in services is demand lead. Jan and Feb are very quiet months for airlines.

[bigjim99]

Cheers guys, I didn't actually pay attention to the number as I should have spotted that! I just saw the 4 digits.

[Rivet Joint]

So REP has been withdrawn from use. Anyone understand why they would remove the newest one in their fleet? Obviously the 600s start arriving in April but surely remove the old ones in the fleet that are damaging their reputation with their poor reliability!

[rallye parachute]

Capital - the bean counters will raise more cash by selling a newer 212A than selling the older 200's. The 212's will eventually be returned to their leasing company. Soon there will be more 600's than the older fleet hopefully reducing maintenance issues.

Make perfect sense to the bean counters.

[Rivet Joint]

Guess your right, seems to be the only logical explanation. Unfortunately bean counters only concentrate on beans, its their 'remit' or so i'm always told. Personally it appears shortsighted to me, a well oiled machine leads to more beans not a lower lease rate.

[bigjim99]

Sorry if I am repeating an older thread of mine but just after reading the latest potential AT72 icing incident in Sweden I was extremely surprised to watch tonights flights from MAN to ORK and SNN depart with a ground temperature of -1 deg, with light snow falling, flying into snow clouds, with ice still visible on the base of the tail from the inbounds without any fluids applied.

Obviously I will now be shot down by someone saying that the pilots know what they are doing.......I'm just glad I wasn't on them

[Jack1985]

Definitely share your concerns bigjim99 especially as the ATR has had serious problems with ice before.

[dublinaviator]

Has anyone noticed the Aer Arann website (http://www.aerarann.com/) has been transformed into a mini version of aerlingus.com ?

[bigjim99]

Was onboard EI-REL tonight on the ORK-MAN. On the approach into MAN, it suffered a failure within the right engine. For all I was not anywhere near the engine, it sounded like the engine was feathered and shut down although I could be wrong. The return flight was cancelled. Anyone with any further details?

[EISNN]

Has anyone noticed the Aer Arann website (http://www.aerarann.com/) has been transformed into a mini version of aerlingus.com ?

@Dublinaviator I guess the fact that Aer Arann doesn't operate as Aer Arann at the moment but as Aer Lingus Regional and the website page is called Aer Lingus Regional would suggest just as you said "a 'mini' aer lingus". No different to the old Aer Lingus Commuter if you wish.

[sawtooth]

Don't see the point in retaining that site anymore, the RE brand is dead and simple re-direct of the old web address to the EI site would do.

[Just a spotter]

From a marketing perspective the Aer Lingus Regional brand will have greater recognition outside of our little island than Aer Arann ever would. It makes sense to piggy back on the existing EI branding.

JAS

[EI-A330-300]

The first ATR72-600 starts passenger service on 25 April based at DUB, delivered on 23 April.

[mart901]

New Aer Lingus Regional routes to add 450,000 seats by end of 2014 - Business - Business | Ireland's online business and management news service - Businessandleadership.com (http://www.businessandleadership.com/business/item/40424-new-aer-lingus-regional)

[cornishsimon]

I wonder how long until Regional try out relinking DUB-NQY even if summer seasonal



cs

[bigjim99]

First -600 is reg EI-FAS

[COBHC]

Is it possible to see the -600 on the DUB flight to/from BLK at some point?

[bigjim99]

Not likely, the route is usually operated by the 42's.

[Hangar6]

Well if my understanding is correct re fleet plan then only 8 600s will be in EIR so by next S14 you will be visited upon by a 600 , could even be sooner depending on the Dub asked schedule !

[quantumofcheese]

This time next year the fleet will only consist of 3 72-500s and 8 72-600s

Will be great to wipe out the regular occurrence of the 42s going tech :)

[rallye parachute]

But they only have three 500s now.

Which means the two 200s will stay for a while yet.

[quantumofcheese]

It's all stated here: Aer Arann extends Aer Lingus deal until 2022 - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0211/367204-aer-arann-extends-aer-lingus-deal-until-2022/)

[Ondale]

I understand the ATR 42s are staying for the thin routes and PSO operation, certainly that is what is on sale

Two new routes this year for 2 of the 600s (MAN and BIR from DUB)
Four to replace 4 of the older aircraft (72-200 with 600s)
3 500s to remain
Two 600 unknown where they will operate yet - maybe to phase out 42s

Would leave fleet after all deliveries

8 * 600
3 * 500
4 * 42

[mikkie4]

any idea of pax numbers on the retimed dublin-SEN flights?

[mart901]

I did figure they would use the 600's for BHX/MAN-DUB because vexing existing passengers with tatty old a/c wouldn't really help the cause.

[rowly6339]

It could be Stobart at work as they renew all there trucks after 3 years, they say it's all about image so maybe that is the way they want things to go.

[dublinaviator]

Hate to be the cynic in the room but even though the franchise has been extended to 2022, Aer Lingus will have the option to end it any time they want, with due notice given to Aer Arann obviously. As Lufthansa showed in Germany recently, what may have worked at one point won't always be the case and several regional airlines in Germany have gone into liquidation as a result of Lufthansa's decision to end it's franchising contracts. And in the years to come there's every chance that Aer Arann could find itself in the high court again applying for an examiner to be appointed because Aer Lingus decided to end it's franchise because of a change in it's business model.

So while it's great to see the airline expanding after coming so close to collapse, it shouldn't get complacent about the risks posed by relying entirely on a franchisor for it's business.

[vulcanised]

Don't forget that Aer Arann is now wholly owned by Stobart.

[Mayfly1]

But I understood EI have put €11m or something like that into a third party company that is leasing the aircraft to Aer Arran as part of the deal so clearly they must be very committed to making it work for the lease term at least

[Angry Rebel]

@vulcanised - Stobart do not own all of RE, Invesco also own a significant portion of it.

@dublinaviator - EI cannot terminate the franchise agreement at any time. No airline (RE or anyone else) would enter such a deal as it gives them no certainty, particularly having given up on their own brand and hitched it completely to EI.

[vulcanised]

Invesco also own a significant portion of Stobart shares.

[dublinaviator]

@dublinaviator - EI cannot terminate the franchise agreement at any time. No airline (RE or anyone else) would enter such a deal as it gives them no certainty, particularly having given up on their own brand and hitched it completely to EI.

Nonsense, business models change all the time. Aer Lingus would be stupid to not have a back-out clause in the agreement. So long as sufficient notice is given, I don't see any reason why there'd be an issue with such a clause. At the end of the day, Aer Arann would be bust if not for the lifeline thrown to them by Aer Lingus, so it's not as if they're in a position to bargain...

As for no airline entering such an agreement, I refer back to my original post where I mentioned the example of Lufthansa recently ending it's own franchise contracts, which resulted in at least 1 airline going into liquidation and hundreds of jobs being lost So it can and does happen.

[Mayfly1]

If you read the article below its gives more clarity to the ownership of AA and the EI relationship. I think you will agree EI are committed for the longer term to ensure it works successfully


UK-based Invesco a major shareholder in Aer Arann - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ukbased-invesco-a-major-shareholder-in-aer-arann-29070625.html)

[dublinaviator]

Of course they're committed to the franchise (for now) because it gives them huge benefits with little financial risk, and ties in with it's strategy of offering a high frequency product so that it can segment its market and tailor its product as such, with the added benefit of increasing connecting traffic.

I was just making the point that for Aer Arann, having all its eggs in the one basket poses a huge risk should Aer Lingus decide in 5 years time it wants to change its business model. It was only 10 years ago that Aer Lingus Commuter was wound up because it wasn't part of the airline's future strategy.

If you want another example of what could happen in 5 years just look at CityJet now which wasn't included as part of Air France's recent future regional brand strategy, which has put a large question mark over it's future in the group and any sell off could mean large job losses.

Just my 2c. Ar aon nós, moving on...

[Dontgothere]

Found a picture on flickr of EI-REP since withdrawal. Propellers removed.

Aer Lingus Regional (Aer Arann) ATR-72 EI-REP | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/38016434@N05/8643154469/)

[Jack1985]

I don't see how you're comparing like with like here, even with your example of Augsburg Airlines. It folded after LH ceased cooperation due to cost-cutting, LH merged its wholly owned assets (nearly all of Augsburg's fleet) into CityLine which made perfect sense.

Also your examples of Aer Lingus Commuter and CityJet, both operate(d) less than economically viable fleets and are/were fully funded by their associated airline/owner e.g. Aer Lingus funded Commuter and Air France/KLM fund CityJet the latter for sale. Aer Lingus Regional is costing Aer Lingus nothing its making them money through the franchise fee, Aer Lingus are investing over €10m in this new fleet deal, it's clear they're committed and most definitely for the next 10 years.

[BAladdy]

I thought EI-REP was the youngest of the ATR's in the fleet.

Does anyone know the reason for it being withdrawn from service?

[78Whiskey]

I thought EI-REP was the youngest of the ATR's in the fleet.

Does anyone know the reason for it being withdrawn from service?

Yup, it was the youngest; and yes it was sold to help fund the new -600's.

The new -600 (EI-FAS) should be delivered on the 23rd Apr, and put into service on the 25th. Glasgow is the first route it will be operating i think.

[Angry Rebel]

@dublinaviator appreciate you not calling my post nonsense unless you tell me you are reading from the franchise agreement, and I know you aren't, because you're wrong.

Of course EI can terminate if RE aren't meeting an agreed performance standard but they can't terminate on a whim. No business or airline would enter such an agreement as they would be left, with little notice, with aircraft and the whole airline infrastructure and absolutely nothing to do.

[dublinaviator]

I don't see how you're comparing like with like here, even with your example of Augsburg Airlines. It folded after LH ceased cooperation due to cost-cutting, LH merged its wholly owned assets (nearly all of Augsburg's fleet) into CityLine which made perfect sense.

You're right, it was due to cost-cutting but it was also as a result of a change in strategy whereby Lufthansa is now streamlining it's short-haul operations and transferring most of it's short-haul network to a newly-branded Germanwings. The franchise with Augsberg Airlines wasn't part of that future strategy and so it was discontinued.

Also your examples of Aer Lingus Commuter and CityJet, both operate(d) less than economically viable fleets and are/were fully funded by their associated airline/owner e.g. Aer Lingus funded Commuter and Air France/KLM fund CityJet the latter for sale. Aer Lingus Regional is costing Aer Lingus nothing its making them money through the franchise fee, Aer Lingus are investing over €10m in this new fleet deal, it's clear they're committed and most definitely for the next 10 years.

I only mentioned Aer Lingus Commuter to highlight what can happen when airlines change their business model.

Also not once did I claim Aer Lingus wasn't benefitting from the franchise (just read back over my post and you'll see I actually highlighted the benefits). All I've done is highlight that there is a huge risk on Aer Arann's part by being 100% exposed to such a franchise for it's business. I just personally think there is a question mark over the sustainability of Aer Arann's business in the medium to long term.

Of course EI can terminate if RE aren't meeting an agreed performance standard but they can't terminate on a whim. No business or airline would enter such an agreement as they would be left, with little notice, with aircraft and the whole airline infrastructure and absolutely nothing to do.

It wouldn't be on a whim though, they would have to give sufficient notice to the franchisee. Do you honestly think Aer Lingus would enter an agreement whereby they would tie themselves unconditionally to a franchisee for 10 years and have no way of backing out of it?

[Aerlingus231]

Just going on common sense I'd say there's probably some clause in there that if either party wants to stop the agreement they've to give 3 (6?) months notice. I think this is what Dublin Aviator is getting at.

[Angry Rebel]

I understand that. I'm saying dublinaviator is wrong. (I'm using more actual knowledge, rather than just common sense, to say so).

[dublinaviator]

What "actual knowledge" is that?

[Angry Rebel]

Actual - existing in fact (as opposed to spouting off)
Knowledge - the fact or condition of being aware of something

I cannot disclose the exact source for confidentiality.

[bigjim99]

First picture of the new 72-600, reg EI-FAS named St Conall.

Photo : le 1er ATR 72-600 d’Aer Lingus Regional est prêt - Le Journal de l'Aviation (http://www.journal-aviation.com/actualites/22480-photo-le-1er-atr-72-600-d-aer-lingus-regional-est-pret)

[Dontgothere]

EI-FAS on test as F-WWET, picture here: ATR - Aer Lingus Regional - F-WWET | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/59375561@N03/8664623453/)

[bigjim99]

Glad that it looks as though it is not in 72 seat config! Should hopefully make travelling on these more comfy than the 500's! With any luck they will have gone for the 68 seats with a coat rail in the back (as on the older a/c) as I hate having to squish my suit jackets into the overheads!

[78Whiskey]

Another ATR 72 leaving this week. EI-SLN (?) expected to be returned to Air Contractors on Tuesday morning, same day the -600 arrives.

[bigjim99]

Has EI-CBK also left?

[80RPilot]

The 600s are configured for 72 pax with a larger cargo hold. EI-CBK is in maintenance and SLN is not going back. Her sister ship SLL is leaving tomorrow.

[Rivet Joint]

80rpilot any idea why they retired ei-rep an why it is now sitting engineless? Was the newest in the fleet after all.

[80RPilot]

SLL Did not go back yesterday as originally planned. There was some snags to be fixed on EI-FAS and it has been delayed untill near the end of the week.

The 500s are probably the most expensive in the fleet and they are more than 5 years old now. They have been giving trouble recently and therefore the decision was taken to sell off the big assets.

REP is awaiting its engines to come back from overhaul and then it will be flown out of the country. With 8 600s on the way, and the option for 2 more, they will no longer need all the 500s.

I do think that it was a silly move! But hey..

[mart901]

Does anyone know what the delivery schedule is, and the schedule for aircraft to leave the fleet?

[mikkie4]

will SEN get any of the new planes or wiil we be stuck with the old knackerd ones?