BELFAST CITY AIRPORT (BHD)

[dog in park]

Let's stop being Babys and stop the slagging. :ok:

[BHD2BFS]

We are a small country of around 1.5million and have 3 airports with almost 7 million pax a year there is no need to be negative

[Belboy]

Did I miss something? Where'd the original thread go?

[dog in park]

It went on a WW flight to AMS

[Midnight runner]

Ditp , i'm new here but dont understand all the snipeing at baby & the city for putting on new routes.
Whilst i do agree that a daily AMS is clearly not working at the moment , i imagine the reason the route planners allocated the route was in the hope of getting feeder traffic to/from the KL hub , albeit without the benefit of a codeshare/transit pax product.
I for one hope BHD continues to develop new routes & is allowed to expand as the market demands dictate , rather than have artificial obstacles to competition put in their way.

[bongoo]

At last, someone without an agenda speaks some sense..:D

[sealink]

What about having the amsterdam every other day and fit in a couple of JER flights during the week ? How about reinstating the ORK flight.. . might be a market there?

[Midnight runner]

I think perhaps 3 a week would be max for AMS but there would be plenty of options for alternative routes given journey/turnaround times. Baby don't seem to do themselves any favours on the advertising front either , with distinct lack of radio/tv adverts.

[mart901]

WW are offering BHD-AMS for £16.99 each way with 22kg of free luggage, they have done this offer on BHX-AMS also. That just needs some decent marketing there is no reason it shouldn't work with offers like that.

[larry the man]

Lots of coverage in the Belfast papers today, some good, some less so. Couldn't be bothered saying more or posting a link in case someone takes offence at the comments and the thread is closed down again.

[elle may clampit]

LTM.
I agree. The articles covered in the BT yesterday are such alot of c*** and everyone knows it. I don't intend to go through the long list of inaccuracies in the articles but it is no less than we have come to expect. Being sensored for telling the truth is most frustrating.

[Midnight runner]

Care to elaborate ellie may?

[tigger2k8]

The article is on the homepage of the Belfast telegraph if anyone wants to read it. Basically Brian Ambrose claimed when FR pulled out BHD might have had to close its doors. Why has this came out now well over a year later and especially when they have done well to get routes sorted...

[mart901]

So that would surely raise the question what state was the airport in before ryanair arrived? They weren't there that long. Im sure it affected them badly when they left but their survival was not dependant.

[EI-BUD]

Why on earth would Brian Ambrose release these sort of comments, makes little sense to me from a confidence point of view. Maybe trying to get traction in the runway extention etc, attract publicity for same.

Mr. Ambrose must be realising if he wanted to get a sizeable share of the market to Europe he needs some serious catalyst like Ryanair.....

[Midnight runner]

Clearly the comments are to underline the hit taken when Ryanair pulled out , also trying to highlight the impact felt beyond the airport with fewer visitors to N.I seems like common sense to me that a runway extension that leads to more routes and a return of Ryanair could only be beneficial to the local economy. With more jobs being created both at the airport & beyond. There would be no increase in operating hours & no aircraft which are larger or indeed noisier than those which already operate or have operated out of BHD.

[BHD2BFS]

Personally I don't see why ryanair can't go to BFS, easy and ryanair fly from the same airport in other places why can't they do the same here, there is plenty of routes that they could launch without copying easyjet ie Germany, italy, Cyprus, Greece

[mart901]

Or Ryanair could only achieve what it did by below cost selling being up against Easyjet, on top of capacity restrictions could not make profit and left with a big bang blaming someone else as always but looking like a white knight in the process?? As said previously if they wanted to be in the Belfast market they would be there.

[elle may clampit]

Midnight
Some elaboration.
In 2010 when FR were at BHD for 10 months the airport made the lowest profit in it's history, so why would their departure had that much impact on the airports viability?
If the airport had closed, would there really have been 1500 jobs lost, the airport only employs 200-300 staff.
Did FR really bring in so many people that the wider NI economy was impacted by their departure despite the fact that all of the destinations they served were still available. were the people in STN really flocking to Belfast and have they stopped doing so because its now only available on baby and easy.
Submit the correct information to the planners don't blame them for not granting your permission before you do.

Well done on the German route!

[EI-BUD]

Ryanair could only achieve what it did by below cost selling being up against Easyjet, on top of capacity restrictions could not make profit and left with a big bang blaming someone else as always but looking like a white knight in the process??


Stansted flights, and with very respectable monthly loads were such good value, leads one to believe that FR were not making alot on this route. However, one really never knows the yield. The fact that 930 pm is the last flight in a night in effect makes each aircraft less efficient from cost/operating point of view and that needs to be factored into the overall profit equation to equate to BHD being a profitable destination for FR.

Second issue for FR at BFS is BE, FR made no impact on BE on GLA route and PIK was a complete disaster, some flights 15-20 passngers. When FR went on STN BE's figures on LGW continued to grow month on month! LPL achieved great loads, but BE has never made a success of that route.


Personally I don't see why ryanair can't go to BFS

Ryanair simply wont be going to BFS as that would sour the relationship with Easyjet plain and simple. They couldnt strike a deal that was attractive enough and besides all that if they did come to Belfast market, they would go after the same routes that Easyjet are on to sun destinations to make a 189 seat jet work on, lose money competing in the process as Easyjet so well established here.


seems like common sense to me that a runway extension that leads to more routes and a return of Ryanair could only be beneficial to the local economy


Runway extention alone wont see FR back, the other restrictions needs to be lifted and FR would want and need absolute flexibility across the board, without same their is an impact on cost. The subject of extending the runway has been debated to death on here, and the best reasoned argument on here is that NI needs an aviation policy and strategy that looks at what is best for NI as a whole.

If Ryanair are so confident that they can attract lots of extra passengers to the place, why dont they increase operations at Eglinton??? The days of FR £1 seats are gone, NI opportunity is for inbound passengers and to my mind marketing the Northwest as a tourist attraction and leading up to the north coast is as sellable as Belfast, so given that FR dont see that I dont believe the opportunity ex BHD for FR is as big as this thread would suggest. Any increase at BHD will in the main in my view simply be carving up the limited market the currently exists.

EI-BUD

[flying officer kite]

interesting what was said in the previous comment.. i cannot remember a prestwick flight going with less than 100 on it each day, most of the time it was hitting the 150/160 figure easily.. As for Liverpool, it was quite often to see it come in with only 20 on it at 8am or so each morning. It was only ever completely full when there was a footie match there, or in Manchester (same for Prestwick, but it was still always busy).

[Cloud1]

Well done on the German route!
Have I missed something?

[INKJET]

I think EI BUD is right about the runway extension, I can't see BHD having agreed to upgrade 04 to an ILS this year only to rip up for a longer runway.

The interesting time will come when bmibaby V.2 look to replace their classic fleet, if they went down the NG route they'll be in the same boat that FR were in, an Airbus solution might be better.

[EI-BUD]

Flying officer Kite,

The PIK route was initially daily and the total pax in any month was in or around the 5500 mark, it was then increased for one season to x2 daily and the numbers went up to about 7500, this can be verified more precisely at CAA website.

Assuming these numbers that would have meant load factors of around 47% and 32% respectively on those flights.

Dont know the loads for Liverpool, but the level of passengers was pretty impressive, and would have made LPL one of the top routes x BHD when it went to x3 daiyl on FR.

EI-BUD

[redED]

The interesting time will come when bmibaby V.2 look to replace their classic fleet, if they went down the NG route they'll be in the same boat that FR were in, an Airbus solution might be better.

v2? Why would anyone bother? :ugh:

FR derate their engines hence why they couldn't fill the Boeings on the way out.

I seem to remember Baby rerating their engines to increase their performance specifically for BHD operations.

I'm sure a fully rated 73 engine could handle the City just fine.

[eastern wiseguy]

No doubt this will precipitate the thread being closed:hmm:

However the few times I travelled to PIK ( very useful for Scottish Air traffic control centre) it was virtually empty. I for one miss it.

Hope that comment doesn't upset our self appointed moderator.:hmm:

[EGAC_Ramper]

RedED

The FR machines had 26k thrust allowable to them this could be de-rated by using a fixed de-rate to 24k or 22k with further reduction through using assumed temperature. These processes however are down to the operating crew taking into consideration the performance. It was not the case thye had 26k engines permanently de-rated to 24k from the factory.The 800 suffered at BHD with it either carrying full load but not enough fuel for European destinations or carrying the fuel but suffering a penalty with regards to passengers.

Regards

[Facelookbovvered]

EGAC Ramper that was my understanding re FR i don't think the short field performance on the NG as delivered to FR @26K is as good as the classic at 22K with full pax load

[sjm]

The short field t/o performance on a 22k 300 is better out of bhd than an 800. But it doesn't have the legs of an 800 at altitude. Bhd is basically unsuitable for the NG or classic on long med destinations. Airbus I have no idea.

[flying officer kite]

EI-BUD, 5500 a month, works out at an average of 177 a day/flight (based on a 31 day month), which is how i remember the '1437' being most of the time, and with a 189 seater thats alot more than 47% Or are those figures BHD-PIK and PIK-BHD combined??

Also, Inkjet, have the airport said 04 is getting an ILS? I thought there were too many obstructions for one to work properly?? great stuff if its true though :)

[EI-BUD]

EI-BUD, 5500 a month, works out at an average of 177 a day/flight (based on a 31 day month), which is how i remember the '1437' being most of the time, and with a 189 seater thats alot more than 47% Or are those figures BHD-PIK and PIK-BHD combined??




Yes the 5500 and 7500 figures include total in both directions, this is how the CAA handle the figures. 177 per flight is most unlikely as my info is that restrictions on Ryanair's 738 at Belfast City was max of 169 on outbound and 149 on the inbound. So I am not sure any flight would ever have had more than 169.

EI-BUD

[Flying Wild]

Not only is 04 to get an ILS, the 'HB' is finally going to be replaced/fixed sometime this summer before the 22 ILS is replaced late summer.

[INKJET]

Autumn approaches on 22 with a NDB nice!!

[flying officer kite]

interesting, though i stand by my position that i never saw a quiet Prestwick flight.. ah well :)

As for the figure of limiting the number of seats available for use, i had heard that rumour too, but it wasnt true. Ryanair flights were sometimes (not very often mind) completely full or even overbooked by one or two

[jabird]

interesting, though i stand by my position that i never saw a quiet Prestwick flight.. ah well

As for the figure of limiting the number of seats available for use, i had heard that rumour too, but it wasnt true. Ryanair flights were sometimes (not very often mind) completely full or even overbooked by one or two

Yes, but why would you need to restrict capacity on what was surely the shortest sector in the network?

As for overbooking, really? I thought MOL's claim always was 'read my lips, no overbooking'. This surprises me, especially during the 1p flight days, as you should always be guaranteed a few no-shows, but apparently that is the policy. Only reported case I've read of Ryanair overbooking was when a family gave wrong age for infant, so they needed an extra seat, and instead of offloading the family (4 seats), they forced a solo traveller off instead - naturally traveller wasn't too happy!

[flying officer kite]

Indeed, many airlines say it doesnt happen, and for the likes of Ryanair it is very rare, but it has happened. When checking the Ryanair systems ive seen 192 booked on a flight before, same for many other airlines.

Interesting that in days when more airfields are getting rid of NDBs that 'HB' is getting a new lease of life.. Is there any benefits to using one when there are soon to be ILS's on both ends of the runway? Or is it more for overflying the field, training etc?

[Facelookbovvered]

The HB needs to be operational whilst the ILS is down other wise your left with a radar vector to a visual approach and it's associated minima in other words GO TO BFS

The HB will allow an NDB approach which the crews will love and no doubt greater spacing on the approach ie lots of time in the MAGEE hold

[flying officer kite]

though hasnt HB been out of action for quite some time?? I remember a long time ago a NDB was potentially going to end up at Ards, but that never came to be. Is the one at Enniskillen (EKN) working these days?

It can happen i guess, but in the (far too) many years working with various airports I can only recall one incident/day when an ILS was u/s.. but i guess a backup device is always handy

[Facelookbovvered]

But in this case the ILS will be down for some time intentionally and its the HB or nothing!

[eastern wiseguy]

I hear NATS engineers are doing the work

Quite correct as NATS have the engineering contract at BHD :ok:

[EI-BUD]

As for the Ryanair saga, my source says City management always said although Ryanair put large numbers of punters through the doors, it wasn't a proportionally high part of the profits. Not sure whether Mr A. or Belfast Tele is putting some spin on things


Given that all of Ryanair's routes were new routes from the airport (and STN was being vacated by AirBerlin) I would imagine that the city airport gave Ryanair a very attractive deal for 3 years on landing charges. Hence the reason why Ryanair didnt go after existing routes from the airport e.g. in competition with other carriers directly, as these most likely would not have been incentivised. However, while its probably true that FR ops weren't a big proportion of BHD profits, the volume of passengers probably assisted well in supporting the other businesses around the airport, the shops the cafes etc etc.

Given recent profits or lack thereof, I would imagine the City airport would be glad to have them back and enjoy whatever marginal return they could get from them.




I would say that Ryanair's presence added little to the bottom line of the airport, and given that each route was a 'new' route from the airport (well given that AB was pulling STN it probably was a case for an incentivised rate)

[speedrestriction]

I believe the HB has been us for four years now. Personally I rue the disappearance of locators, apart from use as approach aids they are invaluable for SA.

[BFS BHD]

New airline for belfast city soon. (Lufthansa Regional)
All i can say atm. :E

[BFS101]

Excellent, would be very welcome. Another full service carrier option from NI, and to allow interlining but avoiding LHR. Fingers crossed!

[NorthernCounties]

I think saying that it is going to be Lufthansa Regional has said it all already. It's hardly going to be to Berlin or Munich. If they're coming, it'll be some small size jet... i.e. E190 and the destination will be Frankfurt. It could be nothing else. (Unless its a larger aircraft.)

Can't wait to see them at the airport, will provide some well needed onward connections from NI! Hope the timings are good! :ok:

[EI-BUD]

Can't see why it couldn't be a weekly Munich flight and this could be sustained into the winter for Ski season, Aer Lingus did Munich ex BFS and it didnt last long though many of the flights had good loads, some very poor, but perhaps with a more appropriate sized aircraft who knows.

Dusseldorf also, if NI is marketed in the appropriate way it would be great to think that the Germans would come here.

Separately, as LH know or have access to the bmi stats on how many pax flew BHD LHR and on to German cities, LH may be making a very well informed decision about what may/may not work for them ex BHD.

Exciting news if true.
EI-BUD

[sarcon]

I hear from a good source that the German route will happen. It is not however Lufty in any of their guises. It will not offer any interlining ops, sorry.

[JSCL]

Not even Germanwings?

Didn't think the route would work without interlining available..

[BHD2BFS]

Air Berlin?

[EI-BUD]

AirBerlin, can't see them coming back since their last stint. Though unless its a Q400 I cant see any of AB's other types being a runner.

Germanwings would make a little more sense than AB given the LH/BD/WW link....

EI-BUD

[sim737]

I think u have all got it wrong about a new airline for bhd and it being lufthansa. Check ryanairs website go to careers then cabin crew and have a look at were they are recruiting for

[david1994]

I think u have all got it wrong about a new airline for bhd and it being lufthansa. Check ryanairs website go to careers then cabin crew and have a look at were they are recruiting for

That has always been there since then have left. It has been took off the website and put back on many time. Its also remained on the ryanair routemap for up to 1 year after they left.

[eastern wiseguy]

Where will I be working?

We are principally recruiting for bases in the following countries
UK (London - Stansted, Liverpool, Glasgow - Prestwick, East Midlands, Luton, Bristol, Bournemouth and Belfast)



So they are coming to Aldergrove then?:E

Big runway....no conflict with the local carriers (to Germany). Ticks the boxes:p:p

[david1994]

NO its has always been there. Aldergrove has always sait is does NOT want Ryanair at BFS because they keep asking for the fee's to be cut by 60 percemt.

[eastern wiseguy]

david1994

Checklist

Sense of humour...........installed

Sense of humour...........Check selected ON


Lighten up young fella:ok:

[david1994]

I was only making the point as I work at the airport.

[eastern wiseguy]

Well snap..me too....since 1985...:hmm:

[sim737]

When is there an announcement due from bhd regarding new airline and what makes some of u so sure its a german airlind it seems funny the cabin crew advertisement on ryanair website and then mr ambreose comnents aswell seems funny to me

[eastern wiseguy]

I will be honest. I do NOT see Ryanair back in NI (except CODA) anytime soon.

One thing that BHD needs is someting to improve their dreadful bottom line. Bmi Baby aren't going to do it.....Ryanair certainly didn't do it.

Here's a question for you Harbour groupies.

Willie Walsh has said he remains committed to a route to/from LHR. It would appear that this means(in your minds) that the BMI route is secure.

What about he gets Aer Lingus to up their rotations (partner and all) and he uses the remainder of the Bmi slots for something else?

BA keep their promise. Aer Lingus and BIAL flourish. BHD goes pop. (no moving of EIN to the docks in this scenario please.....night time constaints and aircraft utilisation take precedence).

[EI-A330-300]

One thing Aer Lingus don't have the short haul aircraft to do it. Next aircraft will be 2 more A319 in early 2013.
BA may perfer them to increase it from DUB as BA CEO said he would like to keep DUB flights but he could not be certain. At the minute BHO-LHR is muh more certain to be kept than DUB connection.

[EI-BUD]

Willie Walsh has said he remains committed to a route to/from LHR. It would appear that this means(in your minds) that the BMI route is secure


Everything dometic will be stated as very secure until Willie Walsh gets the regulatory appproval that he wants. Perhaps BA will keep the London LHR Belfast route post bmi takeover, hoping so here. But I wouldn't be taking too much comfort from anything that WW will be saying pre approval of the takeover. Simples.

If BA do opt to continue the BMI link to Belfast, I just cant see why they would stay at BHD. Aer Lingus last August carried almost as many pax on BFS LHR as Bmi did on BHD LHR with lower frequencies. BFS can deliver the passenger numbers just as well as BHD, there are no limiting factors, such as size of aircraft, no restrictive hours to work around (which in the event of delays cost £££'s, ie late arrival charges, or diversion costs etc.).

My view has always been that BA are absolutely not interested in point to point traffic ex Belfast, or indeed from many regional markets, its too hard fought, their interest in almost exclusively feeding the hub at LHR with connecting passengers. Aer Lingus can do this for them and the slots can be used elsewhere for Long haul or new emerging routes that BA will want to fly.

The current capacity that EI have on LHR would only have to be increased slightly to ensure that the overall passenger numbers on Belfast LHR would be maintained.

EI-BUD

[redED]

AMS today:
25 in
43 out

[eastern wiseguy]

AMS today:
25 in
43 out



That's it......the thread will now be closed:E woof woof

[stab3.5up]

Is passenger data like this not commercially sensitve ibformation??

[Cazza_fly]

Is passenger data like this not commercially sensitve ibformation??


No. The CAA releases data on a regular basis anyway regarding passenger numbers on routes to and from the UK.

However, some may argue that giving details prior to a flight could be a security issue.

[sarcon]

If you were on the flight you could count them, how could it be sensitive?

Though it is getting better as on a recent flight from AMS you could count them all on both hands.

EW, don't know if reporting pax numbers gets the thread closed down, but don't be reporting any operational facts or the PR will have shut down. This is a rumours network and facts and truth have no place here, unless it's about another airport, and negative.

[stab3.5up]

Kinda my point but put much better. thanks

[dog in park]

The builders are in!:ok:

[LHRKLBD]

I believe BHD and DUB will be staying post BA integration.

[Facelookbovvered]

I see from the baby website that Tuesday & Wednesday AMS is dropped from the end of March, although Tue June the 12 is available, some good loads of late at weekends.

[BFS101]

Will this facilitate the extra capacity recently announced on some sun routes, or was this AMS reduction planned and that's why Mahon was added later than the original sun destinations??

In addition to this, bmibaby will also increase frequencies on some of its most popular summer routes. Flights to Palma and Faro will now operate up to 3 times a week and flights to Alicante will operate up to 4 times a week

[INKJET]

I don't think its anything to do with med routes, there wouldn't really be enough time, it will however give a bit more flexibility for the inevitable problems across the next work. The best you could squeeze in would be somewhere like JSY or NQY but the days are wrong and its probably to late to market them.

My bet is that when baby are sold Flybe will come off EMA BHD, I would like to see BHD LGW next if we could get LGW slots.

Summer route are i'm told selling well, BHD may have been a gamble but it seems to be paying off with lots of positive passanger feed back.

[Cazza_fly]

I would like to see BHD LGW next if we could get LGW slots.


Would you mean this in addition to or instead of STN?

From an operational point of view I don't see any improvements a service to LGW could make for the target audience baby were originally after? The time (using the express services) to London is almost exactly the same and the fares and frequency are very similar (depending on the actual day). Plus Stansted still has lower fees compared to LGW (ok this can vary depending on airline) and has less slot restrictions.

I hear the BHD-STN-BHD route is now performing much better thanks to tweaks with the schedule. Atleast they are letting it grow rather than chopping it and changing it like the old days. Hopefully as people become more aware of the route at both ends the frequency will be increased once again.

[INKJET]

Cazza

In addition to STN, I think in the longer term if babyV2 is to grow it will need to go outside the Midlands, although there are plenty of growth opportunities in the Midlands especially BHX I think that they have to either go South or overseas,but to do that they need kit that has longer legs and a move to NG's would be less than ideal from BHD.

[Cazza_fly]

but to do that they need kit that has longer legs and a move to NG's would be less than ideal from BHD.

...Except if they were to get both the -700 and the -800 as the NG types. Both these types could fit well into the fleet and -700 operate very comfortably from BHD. Although a single type fleet can be beneficial in some respects it's not in others. A mixed fleet of this type or similar for baby would work very well in both it's current form and for future expansion. I guess we will just have to wait and see!:ok:

[Belboy]

I see that bmi baby are advertising the AMS quite extensively in Holland, at a time when they have pulled a number of the midweek services. Would it not have been better to advertise the route, try to heighten the public awareness of the service in the NL, and if loads do not improve and remain low, then cut the frequency. To do both simultaneously is just stupid.

[Cazza_fly]

I see that bmi baby are advertising the AMS quite extensively in Holland, at a time when they have pulled a number of the midweek services. Would it not have been better to advertise the route, try to heighten the public awareness of the service in the NL, and if loads do not improve and remain low, then cut the frequency. To do both simultaneously is just stupid.

In all fairness this is a route bmibaby have advertised since the launch. They have always had some presence of advertising in Amsterdam, either in the airport or on billboards / transport etc. What I do feel though is that more specific destination advertisments should be used in Belfast and the rest of NI. As many have previously mentioned, the current ones are generalised ''summer flight'' or bmibaby holidays style advertisments.

[stab3.5up]

If bmi baby are offloaded prior to iag sale of bmi is the new owneres going to keep bhd asa base?

[tigger2k8]

If bmi baby are offloaded prior to iag sale of bmi is the new owneres going to keep bhd asa base?

depends on how well seats are actually selling, its hard to tell by this forum as some claim they are poor while some claim they are amazingly good.. i'd imagine that the summer schedule will run its course as cancelling any flights especially in summer costs money and is bad publicity.

as for advertising, ive noticed its a constant battle of bmibaby and easyJet on coolFM, seems they are taking it in turns

[dog in park]

The sun routes are doing well. AMS is 80 - 90 at weekends. GVA fine. Domestics doing well.New arrivals hall started. So a nice place to launch a new airline.:8

[Belboy]

...and it seems that today is the day that one will be announced, according to the the bmi baby thread.

[CARNMANORLAD]

I assume the German route has been put on the 'back burner' as its a little late to announce it for Summer 12. Anyone have any info?

[BFS BHD]

There will be no German route from BHD this year.

But BFS are looking for a NEW airline to do Germany they are also looking for NEW airline'S' to do Canada and Scandinavia ,

Quote from BFS website-http://www.belfastairport.com/en/news/8/125/airport-tells-government-not-%E2%80%98to-sell-us-short%E2%80%99.html

''Belfast International called for a Strategy to open up markets to Canada, Germany and Scandinavia served directly from the airport. An all-out effort to attract new international carriers with the help of a properly resourced Air network Development Scheme was also urgently required.''

[dog in park]

Calling=we cannot manage to do it. So lets go up the hill and ask them for taxpayers money again:E

[sarcon]

Now now Dog. The folks on the hill are there for everyone to use and City do so as much as Aldergrove. Don't be radical in your postings or you know what will happen!

[dog in park]

Hardly radical. Has any other company asked for a new 20mile road or train link in NI? or ........ ?

[tigger2k8]

Hardly radical. Has any other company asked for a new 20mile road or train link in NI? or ........ ?

The road system to BFS and the surrounding area is a joke, if the roads were sorted out it would be more than the airport that would benefit and it would make it safer... once farmers start driving on the roads in their tractors it brings the idiot side of drivers out and dangerous overtaking starts.. I doubt be will see it happen anyway

[dog in park]

As always Tigger is 100% right. It wil take 15years to buy the land off the tractor owners to build the new road

[BFS101]

Contact at BHD said that a team from Germanwings were over last week talking to airport management, and that MO'L was also having meetings with the airport. Can anyone confirm, or have further details... Think Germanwings would be an excellent option reinstating a direct NI Germany scheduled service. But an FR return, oh good God, please no!!

[Facelookbovvered]

Well bmi baby's BHD AMS drops to 4 weekly from next week and loads seem to be improving nicely a few flights now seeing over 130 paxs and most in the 70 & 80s so they seem to be turning the route around at least in terms of numbers which is always the start point.

I heard mention yesterday of a possible 3 rd night stop aircraft this coming winter and also a few extra med flights on odd days this Summer apparently some routes are all but sold out.

Just need to see the ownership issue resolved now, can't be long but how many time have we said that!!!

[BHD2BFS]

I think this has been brought up before, but what are the chances that the new owner of baby would move back to BFS? Surely a new owner would soon want to replace the old 300's but anything bigger than this couldnt fly from bhd and I'm sure that BFS wouldn't mind negotiating with new people behind baby. Only a thought so don't shoot me down

[Cyrano]

Surely a new owner would soon want to replace the old 300's but anything bigger than this couldnt fly from bhd

BHD's declared distances look to be marginally longer than Southend's and easyJet seems happy enough to send their A319s into the latter...

[BHD2BFS]

That's true but why would they choose airbus and have to retrain all pilots, choosing a NG aircraft would save alot of time and money

[cuthere]

BBC Newsline are tweeting that BHD have cancelled their planning application for a runway extension. Make of that what you will......

[BFS101]

Belfast City Airport withdraws runway extension plan

BBC News - Belfast City Airport withdraws runway extension plan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17494730)

[tigger2k8]

I would say in a few years time if the industry improves and hasn't been taxed to death anymore than it already is then they will submit an updated plan. The best plan at the minute is to focus on other needed infrastructure especially when you have an operator who can fly the sun routes without needing a longer runway

[BHD2BFS]

Anybody know how the load factors are on the 1st baby sunshine routes?

[smiles22]

Quote from latest iag press release-

"We have already announced that British Airways will re-start flights from Belfast to Heathrow, maintaining important economic links."

Which Belfast? And what happens to bmi?

[Fairdealfrank]

Would imagine BHD: BD are there at present, EI are at BFS.

[Facelookbovvered]

bmibaby loads to sunshine seem to be around 125, but i understand this weekend are full, AMS over 130 again yesterday, must be doing something right, good luck to all at baby

[tigger2k8]

While i hate to quote The Sun newspaper.. this is mainline related, not WW

1,200 jobs to go in BA takeover of bmi | The Sun |News|Sun City (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/4253102/1200-jobs-to-go-in-BA-takeover-of-bmi.html)

250 staff at BMI’s head office in Castle Donington, and hundreds of cabin crew and support staff based at Edinburgh, Manchester and Belfast Airports will get the chop.

Sad news, wish those involved the best of luck relocating

[david1994]

Sad day for all BMI staff at BHD, know a few that work their and they've just basically been told today when they started work there's no jobs their for them.

On another note Menzies have been up and around BHD talking with management, possibly to do with BA seem they do not Self Handle outside London.

[dantheflyboy]

What a day we had today thanks to international arrivals at bhd bmibaby. Due to immigration the arrivals corridor is closed leaving all other departures and arrivals having to wait for the international to clear. Totally unfair to our flybe passengers being delayed for no reason other than the airport stucture.

[Rinty]

Dan

I have no detailed knowledge of what went on today but presumably when you state 'ALL other departures and arrivals' you mean 'All' those not on stands 1 through to 5?
How bad was it?
Current situation isnt ideal but I know that Ops are doing their best to manage stand planning to minimise the issue and the airport is building a new facility which will further alleviate the issue.

[mart901]

Bmibaby announced over 12 months ago they were going to operate international routes and the planning for which didnt happen overnight, things should have been sorted long ago. Out of interest does anyone know what kind of loads are coming on/off these new flights?

[Rinty]

Mart

I note that location is in Cambridge - believe me when I tell you that for anyone to start building anything in less than a year after the 'flag is dropped' is pretty good such is the state of the NI planning service

[flying officer kite]

the loads off the new flights look very promising, many of them hitting the hundred mark, some almost full too. Even the Amsterdam route seems to have picked up, though not sure whether thats related to the reduction of weekly services??

[elle may clampit]

What is genuinely happening on the bmibaby front?

Over a period of months we've heard everyone linked as interested suitors, from Toyota to Proctor & Gamble!

Are any of the £3 million weekly losses quoted by BA in respect of bmi mainline flying attributable to bmibaby?

Is there a good business reason for NO bmibaby routes being offered for sale currently beyond October 2012?

Perhaps the defined BA/bmi deal completion deadline of 20 April will unravel some facts????.....................

[Facelookbovvered]

They probably didn't expect 148 passenger inbound!

Losses? Probably very little at the minute, but who really knows? Mainline is bleeding cash hence the urgency to get a grip with costs whilst regional and baby are left for now to continue.

[sarcon]

Rinty

Mart might well be in Cambridge but he knows more about the real reason why the work at city is not completed already. In this instance it has been nothing to do with the planners, who I agree are on the main part, to quote their previous Minister 'not fit for purpose'. Check the planning servive website to confirm the dates, it's available to the public. It's more to do with the fact that the airport, or more likely its owner, had hoped that there would be no need for a new arrivals hall, but UKBA thought differently and told them so. A competition then had to be organised with contractors and architects to get the best possible price, which in the end was still alot higher than the airport wanted to pay. This process was only completed a couple of months ago, thus the late start.

[Rinty]

Sarcon - as you quite rightly point out the dates are on the planning website -
International routes announced April 11
PLanning permission submitted June '11
Planning permission approved Feb '12
Works commenced in March '12

Perhaps you are suggesting that BCA should have started work before planning permission was granted???

[eastern wiseguy]

Not at all RInty........I mean they wouldnt promise anything daft like a runway extension would they.....oh wait!:E

[BHD2BFS]

Apparently there is to be a big announcement on Monday, any ideas?

[CARNMANORLAD]

Possibly something to do with the German route rumours that have been circulating?

[EI-BUD]

Big Announcement; not many gaps on the domestic front that would be significant, unless Ryanair coming back with STN and LPL..
If Euro routes doing well and with uncertainty around Bmibaby, perhaps another airline to commence EU flights.... Or
New application for runway extention....???

[david1994]

Or the end of BMI Baby after all BA/IAG has on their website that they will not be holding onto them in the future..

Bmibaby and bmi Regional are not part of IAG's long-term plans and will not be integrated into British Airways. IAG will pursue options to exit these businesses

[Andrew R]

Whats the construction work going on in the arrivals/baggage reclaim area?

[dog in park]

Not expecting anything Monday.
And its the new international arrivals/ UKBA area.

[DannyKelly22]

i can also confirm that i have heard that there is an announcement on monday also.

[Andrew R]

So no new baggage carousels beng added?

[Andrew R]

Are you allowed to plane spot from Ikeas carpark still?

[dog in park]

as long as you dont take a spotters strop if asked to move five feet Ikea are fine. check out ni aviation fourm on the interweb

[dog in park]

well nothing today as expected. Ikea spotters said EI are off to city once contract with BFS expires HA HA HA HA HA. they say they have been in. :E

[EI-BUD]

dog in the park; AerLingus staying firmly put at BFS..the base is performing well.

Though still no winter schedule for continental european routes... I would suggest that LHR route situation and BA are part of that story.........

EI-BUD

[dog in park]

just saying what the spotters said.

[EI-BUD]

dog in the park; where or what exactly did the 'spotter' say, I must have missed something. I would suggest that even if a spotter surmised that Aer Lingus are unlikely to move that may be a fair suggestion. The majority of us in the industry often dont know any more than some of the spotters who know a thing or two about things!

Even if AerLingus were for moving and negotiating with BHD, the limitations around early closure would be big impact for flying program especially Tenerife, Lanzarote.

Bmibaby European routes seem to be getting good loads, good to see that BHD can command a fair share of the market. Next CAA stats will make for interesting reading.

[tigger2k8]

I doubt we will see EI move its base out of BFS as EI-BUD has said BHD has too many limitations for them and EI has stated the base performs very well.. but...

I could see BA pulling out of BHD and EI running a couple of BHD-LHR flights under the codeshare, that way BA is still keeping by their word of retaining the link between BHD-LHR..

Its anyones guess as to what will happen, as we have seen in the last few years there have been quite a few surprises

[EI-BUD]

I could see BA pulling out of BHD and EI running a couple of BHD-LHR flights under the codeshare, that way BA is still keeping by their word of retaining the link between BHD-LHR..




Tigger thank you for your post, I always value your contribution. I have said it before and remain committed to my view on the matter. BA are not interested in point to point domestic traffic, they are interested in the interlining opportunity. Belfast differs from the other domestic points in that AerLingus are on the case. I cant see BA having a long term interest in the Belfast market due to the saturation of operations by low cost airlines. Yes this is also the same at GLA, EDI, etc but they dont have an alternative airline flying into LHR that could feed passengers to the network.

It comes as no coincidence that AerLingus have not finalised the winter BFS Europe schedule, I feel that Aer Lingus are looking at LHR to EDI and ABZ. The airline who fills this slots has to interline with BA, and why would BA not want an existing ally onto these routes, codesharing? Giving Aer Lingus Belfast Heathrow in its entirity, plus preserving the relationship between ORK SNN DUB and LHR and the valuable feed into long haul. Many have commented that it is not substantial but it is substantial enough. BA dont need to fly these routes and can still get feed into long haul.

I dont suppose EI can afford to leave European routes much longer to release into booking system.

EI-BUD

[flying officer kite]

reference BA keeping their word, was Willie Walsh not quoted as saying he (BA) intended to return to NI. He wouldnt have said that if he was planning on only using Aer Lingus, who have been operating as a code share for quite some time.

I must admit i hold the cynical view that BA may not last long here, but i hope im proven wrong.

Also worth noting that Aer Lingus fly 3 or 4 times a day, and BMI about 6 or so times, so unless Aer Lingus have surplus aircraft sitting about theres a big gap in the market if BA dont operate here

[rowly6339]

Who does the man flight out of harbour these days? I used to use this service 5-6 times a year and never had any problems and always thought it was a great little airport,and right next to city unlike aldergrove.

[sealink]

Flybe operate MAN

[dog in park]

BBC News - Willie Walsh says Belfast to London Heathrow route safe (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17857534)

[BELHold]

It doesn't mention which Airport though, what it says is Belfast not specifically BHD.

[ALLMCC]

Crucially however, he doesn't say which Belfast airport BA will operate the route from!

[BAladdy]

Crucially however, he doesn't say which Belfast airport BA will operate the route from!
BA are working hard to merge BD into there mainline operation before the end of October. BA are planning to release there W12 schedule in June. So it might be 6 to 8 weeks before we find out if it will be BFS or BHD.

[BFS101]

From today's NI Travel News email. I've quoted only part of the article.

Speaking in Londonderry today IAG Chief Willie Walsh confirmed that the Belfast City to Heathrow route would continue. He said it was a very important point-to-point service and also for the number of onward connections made through Heathrow. He added that British Airways would now be selling Belfast on its worldwide network.

[rowly6339]

If right then that is good news.

[tigger2k8]

BBC News - Willie Walsh says Belfast to London Heathrow route safe (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17857534)

BBC has no mention of BHD, just Belfast - Heathrow .. guess it will be a case of sitting tight and seeing what happens, neither article mentions if it will be using BA aircraft or not

[Skipness One Echo]

From the BBC article
In 2001, BA pulled out of its London Heathrow to Belfast route with the loss of 160 jobs.

One hundred and sixty people? To handle ~ 8 A320s on LHR-BFS a day and the J41s and ATPs of British Regional? I think I see why it fell into the red....

[dog in park]

BA boss: Flights tax could put Belfast to Heathrow at risk - Business News, Business - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/ba-boss-flights-tax-could-put-belfast-to-heathrow-at-risk-16150742.html)

[flying officer kite]

160 sounds a bit high, but could that have included staff that worked in, for example, the old BA ticket office in the city centre?

[True Blue]

I think the way WW is wording his statements is significant. If they were going to operate to BHD, why not say so. I have not read any statement that refers to anything other than Belfast, no mention of which airport. Options are being kept open here, I think.

TB

[dog in park]

Would Willy risk going to BFS is the question? EI could then go to BHD and get the high paying business passengers on LHR and run european flights away from easyjets home.

[BFS101]

I doubt that bhd would be a beneficial move for EI, as they operate a canary island flight with another european flight each day, resulting in a late arrival back in the uk. The bhd curfew would pose too much a hurdle I'd imagine!!

[tigger2k8]

While some articles such as the NI Travel News one seems to assume that by Belfast they mean BHD, everything else has stated just "Belfast" which could either be BHD or BFS, he has also not stated that it will be BA aircraft, just saying that the link would be retained.. so to me these are the 4 options.. there could be more but these are the ones i can think of

1. BA moves to BFS and alongside EI operates X amounts of flights per day, allowing an early arrival into BFS from LHR on BA aircraft

2. BA pulls out of BHD and EI increases flights from BFS under codeshare, however another aircraft would have to be found, unless a sun destination gets the chop or the 3rd base aircraft remains in Winter.

3. BA pulls out of BHD, EI puts an aircraft in BHD for the start of Winter when one is normally removed from BFS operating LHR from both BFS and BHD

4. Nothing changes at all and BA continues to fly BHD-LHR in their own aircraft

[Facelookbovvered]

I wish I'd done a MBA in business studies:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[True Blue]

Why would BA commit their own metal to Bhd when they can get Ei to do the same job, probably for less money? Or, Ba operate from Lhr, Ei from Bfs, what I mean here is Ba operate first out of Lhr and last to Lhr, out of Bfs. This way, comprehensive service on one route, but no night-stop costs for either airline. Each do say 3 services a day, good service but BA only using 3 of those very valuable slots they have just got. Too much emphasis being put on this idea it has to be Bhd, BA will be quite happy to fly to Bfs, as there will never now be competition to them by any other airline from Bhd to Lhr. That time has come and gone.

TB

[NorthernCounties]

You don't do an MBA "in Business Studies"... MBA stands for a Masters in Business Administration. :rolleyes:

No need for the sarcasm!

[cuthere]

Hang on. Big Willy said Belfast, not Antrim, therefore BHD it is!

Aye, get EI to do it "for less money" as they're a charity. WW said BA are committed to the route, not that they'd get someone else to fly it for them.

Shame BMI are seemingly going. They're an excellent outfit, from a customer perspective at any rate.

[Rinty]

I'm struggling with the 'cutting & pasting' technology but in todays Newsletter, WW is quoted as saying that the BHD / LHR route will be maintained. He was in L/Derry yesterday and was questioned about it. To my knowledge its the first time that he has been specific beyond 'Belfast'.
Admittedly nothing to say that he wont change his mind.

[tigger2k8]

Thanks for the sarcasm, just highlighting what could happen, sharing my view point as we are all entitled to, open forum isn't it?

[Mlinnie]

I see that someone has put on the Belfast city airport wiki page that Bmi BHD-LHR is ending in summer & that BA start it from October. Also it shows that the Bmi Baby flights to Palma and Malaga are ending in the summer.

[david1994]

PMI + AGP where never planned to operate during the winter months.

[left rudder]

Just read copy of press release on BHD website saying Flybe are providing extra capacity for HC Final.

On reading detail it consists of one additional flight to...SOUTHAMPTON!!!

Michael O must be green with envy.

This is shameful and a total embarrasment to all concerned

[BANDIT12]

So BMIbaby are leaving Belfast city on 11th June. That will be interesting and will only really leave Flybe in a monopoly. Very sad day for competition.

[sam1993]

David, See bmibaby thread. The airline is to be shut down in September with certain routes inlcuding all of those from Belfast ending mid June. Sad day for all. Good luck to any baby staff here.

[mikkie4]

belfast might pick up some passengers on the eastjet flight to southend,

[tigger2k8]

I wonder will BE step in to fill the gap left by WW or will they remember how WW was welcomed with open arms to compete on already existing domestics.

[eastern wiseguy]

Are FlyBe able to pick up the slack?

Might be quiet there this summer....mongrel will enjoy his deck chair in the park...

[dog in park]

not seen the new picknic benches then?

[AIRPORT66]

Take it the construction workers who are building that extention have been told not to come back won't need it this year anyway. Wonder what airline will be offered come to are airport for free deal next.

[True Blue]

So where does Bhd go from here? Fr went in to Bhd for all the wrong reasons and failed, as did WW. How many have tried Bhd - Stn and failed? There are not that many airlines left in the UK that they could go after to offer volume. Lets not get into discussion that Ezy will move, it will not happen for a host of reasons in my opinion. Ei operate long hours and sectors, so Bhd would not suit either. Jet2, have night ops at Bfs. Monarch, if they ever come to N Ireland, it would be a big surprise if they didn't go to Turkey, and in that case Bhd would not suit. In my opinion, there is a real danger for Bhd that the Lhr route will move up the road as well. Bhd/Flybe now seeing increased competition from Ezy on the likes of Man and Bhx for the first time. I think I am right in saying that on every route out of Belfast that Ezy and Flybe compete, Ezy is the largest carrier, on some routes by a long way. If that was to happen on Man/Bhz, then Bhd face the loss of more pax to Bfs. When Fr left Bhd, Mr BA said that it nearly resulted in the closure of the airport. I think WW carried about 400k pax at Bhd in 2011. Is it that dangerous for Bhd now? It will be very difficult to recover from this, where now for Bhd?

TB

[elle may clampit]

Next lemming for the cliff face???

Stark truth is that flybe in their numerous guises are the only airline which has ever made a successful fist of operations from BHD:hmm:

[eastern wiseguy]

Any truth to the rumour that IKEA is now offering long term parking on 22/04?
:E

[david1994]

According to Airbus Takeoff and Landing Performance Calculators an A320-200 of MON's can operate DLM from BHD no problems using flaps 3 for dep. This was tested a while back.

[Skipness One Echo]

Stark truth is that flybe in their numerous guises are the only airline which has ever made a successful fist of operations from BHD

Worth mentioning Loganair who were a pioneer from Belfast Harbour, who are of course now flying as flybe !

[larry the man]

I feel for all the good baby staff who are in this horrible position due to the mismanagement of the airline and for all the people who will now not get the flights they booked. I also feel for the airport staff who fell again, for the total c*** from Mr A that the baby move from Aldergrove would make city a true international airport and secure thousands of jobs. baby were a basket case before they moved to city, the pathetic attempt to sell them by both the airport and the airline as something new and exciting for NI, was the greatest pile of b******* I've ever witnessed. The low loads they were getting, even at the low fares they were charging, showed clearly this was a doomed venture. The airline and airport management and the contributors on here who constantly claimed everything was rosy should be ashamed of themselves.
If there are any threads left in the relationship with Flybe the airport should be begging them to pick up some of the lost routes, if any of them are viable. Its probably more likely that they are talking to other airlines at Aldergrove and try to sell them the same bull they sold to baby, higher yields at city, closer to the population centres, high level of civil service and other government traffic, better weather record etc, etc.
Perhaps if FR are offered a even greater incentive than they received the last time they might come back, but to remember how successful that venture was the first time look at the 2009 accounts.

[Copenhagen]

The airport have tried twice to grow with baby and with Ryanair.

They need a dedicated airline who will grow slowly and surely. baby were sure to fail in City. Too much competition. belfast needs one strong low cost leisure carrier, and not four - easy, Lingus, jet2, baby.

[Rinty]

In the first instance my sympathies to the decent hard working people in BMIBaby who have been treated shamefully through this debacle of an airline sale.

Secondly also my sympathies to the thousands of customers who have booked summer holidays with BMIBaby and now face extra expense and hassle rebooking with other airlines.

Thirdly I have been disgusted to read some of the self satisfied, smug nonsense above. Some of you do yourselves a disservice and are a long way from displaying the 'professional' in the webiste name. Real people have lost their jobs in the middle of a recession. They have mortgages to pay, children to feed and jobs to find!!!!! Your jokes, inuendo and sideswipes are ill advised and unwelcome.

Things will be difficult moving forward for BHD but I have no doubt that other arlines will come lured by higher yields (fact), closer to city (fact), preference of civil servants (fact), better weather (??? dont know) and yes probably lower airport fees.

Also a fact is that BMIBaby loads were very good for the summer with load factors typically in the 70's and 80's. To suggest that BMIbaby leaving was some reflection on BHD is ridiculous - THE AIRLINE HAS BEEN WOUND UP - or maybe its a reflection on all of the other airports that Baby also fly to. Look out Schipol - Baby left you so you must be rubbish.

Baby brought competition, for the first time, on international routes (excluding CoD) and the loads that they have carried before the school holidays even started have demonstrated that there is an appetite for this with the NI public.

When baby moved to city they were an off-shoot of one of the biggest airlines in the world - funny that all of you experts didnt say then that they were a basket case.

Enough - rant over.

[NorthernCounties]

If a good offer was there from BHD, I don't see why Aer Lingus couldn't operate to both Belfast Airports from Heathrow, especially if it does win additional slots that have restrictions on where they can fly too.

If Aer Lingus doesn't win the slots, and Virgin do, their new airline is another option. I wouldn't be too worried.

[Midnight runner]

Appalled by some of the barely disguised glee by some of the posters on here ref the news of Bmibaby ceasing to operate from BHD, people have lost jobs still more have had their travel plans thrown into chaos. This is as a result not of their move to BHD but from the years of mismanagement which latterly had been turned around with some good routes & loads which were very respectable. BHD was turning into a good base for them with strong demand which hopefully another carrier will step in to pick up where Baby left off.As for comparing it to when Ryanair left , this was mainly due to there being no sign of the much needed runway extension being agreed. Also lets not forget FR do seem to have a penchant for leaving airports/drastically reducing routes , Liverpool & Bournemouth being prime examples.

[dog in park]

BBC News - George Best Belfast City Airport hopes to replace BMI Baby (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17955670)

AS always good luck to all.

[eastern wiseguy]

Ambrose says

"We've had to go back to airlines in the last 24 hours and re-engage

My bold.

Now who on earth can he mean begorrah?

[dog in park]

Insert Manx2 joke here....

[BHD2BFS]

To be completely honest I can't see anyone coming in at the 11th hour especially when there is rife competition at BFS, and BHD can't really offer any more rock bottom deals as their current bank balance is not very rosy

[carlrsymington]

The only candidate I can think of is Ryanair. I think they may have planes parked up at Marana & Prestwick. I believe they cannot fly a fully loaded 738 (fuel & pax & luggage) to Palma / Faro etc????
They can fly them at a restricted payload but is it profitable to these destinations?

However, it simply doesn't make any sense (to me).
We shall hear next Friday.

Finally, my thoughts are with the unfortunate staff Baby & BHD ground, I flew with Baby many times and no less than a month ago to Faro. Such a shame as you were always the first site I visited when booking. I will miss you.

[david1994]

Ryanair can fly to these places full providing they spend £30,000 approx per engine getting up un de-rated.

[tigger2k8]

Fingers crossed they can sort something out, not really bothered about peoples holidays being cancelled... they can be re-booked or skipped without it being the end of the world, more concerned about those who work at the airport keeping their jobs..

Im with carlrsymington on this one, the only airline i can think of is FR.. EZY and LS sales are doing well and no doubt have increased dramatically with people re-booking to BFS as it was the only alternative and on the news people were urged to re-book straight away..

[Copenhagen]

Rinty, if all your facts were reality - BA would not have closed the WW BHD base until the summer was over.

Its a pity that BHD got the short straw here, but it is down to base profitability. Civil servants don't fly to PMI, etc very often, so even if yield is higer on Heathrow (would have to be to cover the extra costs of the BD service over EI), the leisure routes are still low yield - and Easy have that market...

[carlrsymington]

I have already expressed my thanks to the bmi Baby team & BHD ground crew. I really do wish them well but when I look to the future, it only has two colours ... orange & green. (Sorry Jet2). Hopefully all of the baby team can get work with one of the three carriers. On a different note, I could not figure out how they would ever be profitable with cheap fares, well paid & professional crew, BHD as a base & 737-400's. Great while it lasted. I really did appreciate whoever subsidised my trips on WW to BHX & FAO. Finally, I see a future of more expensive but sustainable fares from BFS (or BHD) but I see the heat moving on to Jet2.

[redED]

Why not look further afield; Air Berlin have operated into the city before. Norweigan air shuttle are expanding aggressively. But I agree FR are the only ones in my eyes.

[EGAC_Ramper]

First off sorry to the Baby staff everywhere and to those also being affected at BHD. Still have friends there and hope things turn up for them.

I've been regular traveller on the BHD-EMA routes with Ryanair and now Baby, still have some before the June 11th cancellations. FlyBe may be offering doubling their flights but have never been to offer the fares! The only companies I see BHD re-engaging with would be Air Berlin or Ryanair but would see this more as taking over when the winter schedule kicks inn.

Regards

[stab3.5up]

They could try monarch,wizz,transavia,germanwings,iberia express,veuling,lot?

[AIRPORT66]

Think quite obvious what they are going to do offer the free landing to AerLingus and Jet2 the way they done with the others.Easy are not interested.

[eastern wiseguy]

I don't know......moving to BHD seems to impart the kiss of death. Let's be fair who HAS made a success of it ?

Air UK? Gone
Air Berlin? Gone
Ryanair? Gone
BMI/BMI Baby? Gone
Easyjet? Gone

I am sure there are others

To be fair though Manx2 has made a reasonable effort.....:hmm:

[bongoo]

:zzz: Tool..

[BFS101]

FlyBE operate to some European hotspots from Exeter and Southampton, maybe a chance these will be introduced from BHD. It would appear that BHD and BE have had a fairly long and generally stable relationship. Would management risk this (again) by luring back FR et al with substantial incentives??

The other carriers mentioned certainly could be an option from their respective countries to BHD, Germanwings, Air Berlin, Wizz, Norwegian, etc, but none of these carriers appear to offer Spanish destinations ex any UK airports.

Very sad news regarding the job looses at baby and mainline. Thoughts are with all affected.

[BHD2BFS]

Aer lingus can't move due to the late arrivals of their aircraft, and jet2 are the same plus they have cargo at bfs. If BHD get a new airline in the next 7 days which I doubt it will be a new one to the market. But good luck to the management they have been left in a bad position with a half built intl arrivals hall

[Andrew R]

BHD have egg on their faces and the first person to lose their job should be Mr Ambrose IMO.

Ryanair pullot
Easyjet pullout
Cancelled runway extension
Half built European arrivals hall

Disastrous.

[Rinty]

panpanpan +1

A rare voice of reason on this thread.:ok:

[Jack1985]

They could try monarch,wizz,transavia,germanwings,iberia express,veuling,lot? Likely hood of any of them operating into BHD is null. Belfast City's best bet I think is to work with Aer Lingus - example of timtable below:

A/C 1 - A320:

LHR-BHD 0630/0745 MTWTFSS
BHD-LHR 0825/0940 MTWTFSS

LHR-BHD 1030/1145 MTWTFSS
BHD-LHR 1220/1335 MTWTFSS

LHR-BHD 1425/1540 MTWTFSS
BHD-LHR 1620/1735 MTWTFSS

LHR-BHD 1830/1945 MTWTFSS
BHD-LHR 2025/2140 MTWTFSS

A/C 2 - A320:

BHD-LHR 0630/0800 MTWTF-S
LHR-BHD 0845/1000 MTWTF-S

BHD-GVA 0830/1140 -----S-
GVA-BHD 1220/1345 -----S-

BHD-AMS 1045/1320 M-W-F-S
AMS-BHD 1400/1440 M-W-F-S

BHD-AGP 1430/1835 -T-T-S-
AGP-BHD 1915/2125 -T-T-S-

BHD-BCN 1525/1900 M---F-S
BCN-BHD 1940/2130 M---F-S

BHD-GVA 1535/1845 --W----
GVA-BHD 1925/2050 --W----

A/C 3 - A320:

BHD-TFS 0700/1130 -T-T-S-
TFS-BHD 1220/1645 -T-T-S-

BHD-ACE 0715/1145 M-W-F-S
ACE-BHD 1230/1650 M-W-F-S

BHD-LHR 1735/1850 MTWTFSS
LHR-BHD 1945/2100 MTWTFSS

Summary:
Amsterdam | Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Sundays
Barcelona | Mondays, Fridays, Sundays
Geneva | Wednesdays, Saturdays
Lanzarote | Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, Sundays
London Heathrow | Six Daily (ex Saturdays)
Malaga | Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays
Tenerife-South | Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays

All this resting on Aer Lingus getting near enough those slots at London Heathrow which would be difficult to say the least. Also the Geneva flights could be say Alicante or Faro up until December as the Ski Season comes online.

[Cloud1]

Blimey, a lot of time on our hands have we Jack? I dont see how Tenerife would work out of BHD to be honest. Stick to closer European hubs of mixed business and leisure pax

[EI-A330-300]

Reported on a Cabin Crew website that FR to retrun to BHO with a base. Anyone any info?

[Jack1985]

Blimey, a lot of time on our hands have we Jack?

Haha find scheduling easy being honest :O

[CARNMANORLAD]

Can't see FR starting a base from Raja Bhoj Airport (BHO) if I'm honest! I also don't see them returning to BHD for the simple fact of the runway. FR left because they couldn't get the extension they wanted therefore had to run with load restrictions, are they willing to go back to that again? As far as I see nothing has changed at Harbour international?

As I also stated on the LDY I think FR should be focusing on Derry as there main NI Airport for the minute with the City of Culture year etc.

[EGAC_Ramper]

I wouldn't be quick to rule FR out. Initially when they started flights they were restricted to 156pax but after a while this increased to 186. Yes performance wise the bigger runway would be useful but for the routes they operated to mainland UK it worked. During the period they operated the loads on the flights increased to good levels with exception of prestwick.

Now yes if the runway was extended great they would operate sun routes etc but now just throwing an idea out there, would perhaps the runway extension issues be a great excuse to blame/use when initial airport deals run out?

Only a suggestion/idea.

Regards

[NWSRG]

The FR engine 'derate' was supposedly nothing more than a paperwork exercise...with a minor modification in the engine control system. I think it's a case of a selectable plug setting somewhere. So removing the derate is easily achieveable. No doubt, with FR, there is a cost implication somewhere though.

[david1994]

It is £30,000 per engine according the my friend who is a pilot for RYR.

[Straightahead]

I see alot of the blame for RYR pulling out of BHD was the delay in the runway extension.Lets be honest RYR 3 year deal was over so MOL was going to have to pay,so away he goes somewhere else for free.So now a window of opportunity, another free 3 year deal.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Straightahead

Exactly what my opinion over the whole FR leaving BHD was and still is to this day. If the runway was extended at the time great but it also allowed and excuse to pull out of BHD after the initial basing deal was up for renegotiation.

As for BMI mainline I'm dubious of Willie Walsh's comments to keep the heathrow link, I've no doubt we will still have the LHR route but that it will be Aer Lingus from BFS. No need "wasting" capacity/slots when your alliance partner flies from BFS. Transfer over pair of slots, EI increase daily flight to LHR others allow BA to increase their important long haul portfolio.


Regards

[stab3.5up]

Can i just throw in bacf as possible replacement fo ww??

[dog in park]

Will be off to bookies in morning to put £20 on German Wings

[dublinaviator]

I see alot of the blame for RYR pulling out of BHD was the delay in the runway extension.Lets be honest RYR 3 year deal was over so MOL was going to have to pay,so away he goes somewhere else for free.So now a window of opportunity, another free 3 year deal.

So by that logic, Ryanair only fly to airports that have no airport charges?

Maybe, just maybe Ryanair wasn't happy with having to depart out of BHD with empty seats? And why stay in BHD when it could redeploy its aircraft to another airport in Europe where it can fly its aircraft full and make more money?

Can i just throw in bacf as possible replacement fo ww??

Unless the City of London plans on moving to Belfast, not a hope.

[redED]

It would appear that BHD and BE have had a fairly long and generally stable relationship. Would management risk this (again) by luring back FR et al with substantial incentives??

BHD couldn't give 2 hoots about BE as has been proven wih FR and WW. Who's next?

[FlyboyUK]

On the subject of de-rates. The de-rate of the engine is selected on the FMC by the pilots from a choice of 22,24 or 26k lbs of thrust for each departure depending on runway & weather etc.

26k is the maximum on the 737-800 although most departures are made using 22k thrust and an "assumed temperature" correction is often added to bring the thrust down even further. All very common practice in the industry.

However even with full 26k thrust BHD's runway is still very limiting on payload for longer routes.

[EI-BUD]

Easyjet - not really sure why they came down to City in the first place other
than to prove a point to Abertis when they were having a spat


panpan; yes you are correct, but I think easyJet wanted not only to 'test' the market, but also discourage Ryanair from entering LTN BHD, and there were few other realistic points (vacant routes) that could take a 738 in the domestic sense.



All this resting on Aer Lingus getting near enough those slots at London
Heathrow which would be difficult to say the least


Jack1985, well done on the extensive scheduling exercise!! Somebody in AerLingus can copy and paste for the board meeting when they are looking at the 'options'.

I have a strong view of how the whole Heathrow equation will pan out and is much more wide ranging than just related to Belfast;

BA will leave Belfast Heathrow to AerLingus. Why? Because BA have no interest in point to point domestics. Aer Lingus can provide the feed with a lower cost base and with their own slots. (Despite what WW says about Belfast route being safe, he has to be seen to reassure the UK regions about connectivity with LHR, a very emotive issue). EI will pull the slots out of a hat, they have some leased out etc.
Aer Lingus will get ABZ and EDI LHR routes. BA will happily codeshare as they have to interline with the said carrier. BA will be happy to keep VS out, at any cost. BA will have a long term view of VS just as they had with Bmi.
BA will step back from Belfast and Dublin Heathrow routes too.
Why has EI not completed the Winter timetable ex BFS? LHR is the issue.
EI will have great bargaining power between airports and I wouldnt be surprised if EI have a 319 based in LHR to run BHD x 4 daily starting with 0645 LHR departure. A 320 based at BFS for an x3 daily route with an earlier departure than currently exists.
May 11th I think BA give an update on the bmi integration, I think that date will be significant in terms of detail.
We will have to wait and see., just my view of the world.

I said from the word go BHD absolutely backed the wrong horse attracting WW to the city airport. They never were fit to compete, not just in terms of financial ability, but the challenge of attracting the customer to know BHD has a serious route offering to Europe. The market is well served and the airport needs an airline of scale and security to take the long view and slowly develop the market. Baby could fulfil neither of this criteria.

Despite my comments I wish best wishes to all bmibaby and bmi staff for their future careers. This is difficult news to take.

[eastern wiseguy]

EI-BUD


Spot on sir!!:ok:

[BHD2BFS]

completely agree with ei-bud but i think EI will just keep all LHR at BFS and up it to 7-8 flights per day. the only thing that the intl airport has to do is build a air bridge for them. (i think there will be one going second hand at a certain airport down the road soon)

[EI-BUD]

Thanks eastern wiseguy. I also meant to add that I dont feel FR made any return on their operations here. They didnt make a significant dent on the competition, interesting to note for e.g. that Flybe continued month on month to grow LGW BHD numbers... GLA wasnt at all affected by PIK (which was a total flop btw). So in total agreement with a previous poster who said when the 3 year deal ran out Ryanair left town. They blamed the runway rather than BHD management, keeping the door opened for future potential routes to Europe. There was no reason why if the base was making a return they would pull it coming into winter (as domestics fairly consistent over the winter) when they have oodles of 738s parked around the place!

We can all talk about 'good numbers' but when a fare is paid on say a flight to say Malaga of say £60, sweet little is left for the airline when the taxes are taken out. Consider fuel etc and it starts to give a sense as to why the sheer scale of the losses at baby were such. It was a no brainer for BA to pull baby out of BHD as quickly as possible as it was an enormous drain on resources. Despite the reasons for closing MAN and CWL bases, there was no reason why WW could not have kept MAN BHD going, using BHD based aircraft, the reason they did was because it was a dead loss.

What will happen to the package holidays that used Baby ex BHD? Not sure which company but I understand some travel company were block booking seats, Thomas Cook? Easyjet cut back frequency on ALC and AGP slightly this year ex BFS clearly due to the arrival of WW and increased frequency on AGP of LS. The 320 will certainly be warranted this summer ex BFS....

EI-BUD

[EI-BUD]

I would suggest that rules out the majority as I couldn`t see senior
management spouting off on an anonymous forum such as this.


Of course they wouldn't be 'spouting off' on this 'rumour network'.

However, while they wont be showing their cards on here they certainly can get to see a range of views on various topics, suggestions that sometimes are worthwhile.

[Aaron9890]

Honestly don't know if BHD will get any other airlines to do 'holiday routes'. The only airline i can see doing this is TCX after their little go at Reus (but that was through another travel company if im correct?). But since TCX are at BFS can't see it. Surely someone will see the potential of these routes after WW's success with them. Where most of them not sold out quickly with nearly full PAX? Maybe someone like City Jet might have a go??? what do you guys think about this situation?

[CARNMANORLAD]

It's clear that if FR do come back they are back to do domestic only. Which doesn't seem viable with BE already increasing BHX & EMA. When FR done PIK, what are we calling a flop, were loads that bad?

Could Vueling give the European routes a go? Again could the A320 use BHD's runway for such routes?

[BFS101]

On the grand scheme of things, while we all might get a little hot under the collar about BFS v BHD, the travel time between then is about 25 minutes. Not a huge inconvenience when travelling to a European destination.

This is why I feel that each airport should play to its strengths, and I guess their stereotypical demographic. BHD catering to the regional domestics, more business orientated flights and hopefully European cities (Germanwings, KLM, etc); and BFS operating the charters, long haul and bucket and spade loco's.

Each are a business and are out to get a good return to their shareholders, yes, but traditionally BHD was seen as the regional / business airport, and my own personal view would be a return to this would be ideal.

In regard to BA's return, WW stated his intention to get BA flying back into Belfast, long before the bmi takeover. Also when we discuss slot availability at LHR, and potential BA long hauls; NCL has I think 7 flights a day into LHR. If BA feel they get a good return on these flights, why not the same for Belfast?? If anything I'd guess the NI to LHR market would be stronger than from NCL. If demand currently warrants 3 EI and 6 BD flights a day from Belfast, maybe a small reduction could be facilitated, however I cannot see this being reduced to say only 5 or 6 EI flights from BFS. I believe that the BD BHD route was one of the most successful and a bit of a cash cow for them. Would BA walk away from that?? I'd say that BA will operate from BHD, and hopefully forge a stable relationship for the future.

[flying officer kite]

panpanpanpan, redED and BFS101 - spot on with your responses.

EGAC ramper - I guess we'll have to wait and see. I believe WW was quoted in saying he was looking forward to BA returning to NI/Belfast, which wouldnt match the plan for Aer Lingus to operate exclusively. I dont know if Aer Lingus have any spare aircraft floating around to operate all the services, but unless some deal was done with slots and 1 or 2 extra airframes turned up then they could lose some of the market they, and BMI currently handle. Its also worth noting that BA are already selling seats for the winter schedule to Belfast City.

Ultimately we'll just wait and see. I would have thought that with slot usage being a big factor the obvious answer would be to let Aer Lingus work away as normal, and BA could reduce the number of daily services inherited from BMI, utilising the A320/321 more often to keep the figures up..but just my thought.

EI-BUD - i see a lot of sense in what you're saying. I'm just not sold on it, as the snippets im getting from crew in Heathrow seems to contradict what Aldergrove are saying..

Its all very strange, various meetings that have been taking place, and also Aer Lingus still working on their winter schedules.

I'll finish that i agree with what BFS101 said, both airports should play on their strengths. The City airport wasnt really designed to deal with the low-cost and charter airlines market for many reasons. It should focus on attracting new regional airlines for the UK and nearby European cities, like KLM to Amsterdam. It would benefit from the connectivity as well as having another airline alliance in Belfast. I also think that if BA and Aer Lingus consolidated their services and moved all flights to Aldergrove, the City would benefit from the likes of a BA CityFlyer service. Smaller airlines like Flybe and Manx2 will always be able to offer flights and connecting flights to regional places that the likes of Easyjet and others cant, the city airport should be content with that.

[shamrock7seal]

the routes can't have been booking well if these are the first to go... so probably no need for a replacement or anyone to pick up the slack.

[dog in park]

They were doing very well.

[EGAC_Ramper]

I think the main reasons for BHD to go first was the costs of over nighting crew and the fact many pilots/cabin crew will be off to newer pastures. So having the crew to actually fly the full schedule would become unfeasible.

Regards

[BHD2BFS]

dont shoot the messenger but heard that there is a very high change of EI appearing at BHD, dont know if it is for LHR or for everything

[dog in park]

Would be a reason EI regional slow to start at BFS.

[BHD2BFS]

i think it really is a possibility, there is an airbridge available for them, a business lounge, close to city centre and no doubt a good deal on fees. however there is no room for lingus regional at the moment at the airport if it did ever come. plus the fact that they have dropped rome and only have 7 european routes means they can have a schedule to fit the airport opening times

[keep_er_lit]

I'd say the only way EI would move to the city would be to do the lhr route. The runway in BHD is too short for the aer lingus med and canary routes and would not make sense. They may have one a/c in bhd having a code share with BA and the other aircraft operating holiday destinations out of bfs

[tigger2k8]

Well the question is where will the third base aircraft from BFS go during winter when its reduced to 2? Could be going to BHD with very little base costs.. or it could operate from LHR as EI-BUD suggested

I cant see BFS letting EI move the whole operation to BHD without offering a better deal (however i guess it depends how desperate BHD's offer could be) as its one of the airports goal to get EI to do long-haul in the future (as far fetched as that sounds).. after all if all goes to plan this will be the best year for the airport passenger number wise since the downturn.

No doubt it'll be an interesting few weeks

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Its not possible to move all BFS ops to BHO as LPA,TFS, ACE could not operate and they are strong routes for EI at BFS as they are competing with nobody. I think EI-BUD post about an aircraft from LHR operating would be most lightly. EI already have 2 aircraft overnight in LHR as it is.

I think the main reasons for BHD to go first was the costs of over nighting crew and the fact many pilots/cabin crew will be off to newer pastures. So having the crew to actually fly the full schedule would become unfeasible.



If the routes were profitable these cost would be covered and they would of stayed until September. Would think forward bookings were a high part of the choise to close BHO in June.

[Aaron9890]

Its not possible to move all BFS ops to BHO as LPA,TFS, ACE could not operate and they are strong routes for EI at BFS as they are competing with nobody. I think EI-BUD post about an aircraft from LHR operating would be most lightly. EI already have 2 aircraft overnight in LHR as it is.

Totally agree with EI-EIDW on this one, it would be a HUGE risk for EI to move all their ops to BHD. Why would they bother when they are already doing a great job at BFS?? If they have free aircraft i doubt they would be concentrating on BHD anyway, only if BA tells them to the LHR route. If they are told to do that then i think this is the only route they will do.

[dog in park]

WW moved and until shut down i think they did better?

[eastern wiseguy]

He was getting better right up until he died...........:ugh:

[dog in park]

Bet Wise Guy will be snapping strip holders on Friday afternoon any way.

[mavrick33]

I agree, here hopes BHD pushes forward!!. Mind you it would be even better if they wold reduce there landing fees for GA operations.

Happy flying. :}

[redED]

Well not easyjet unsurprisingly: Belfast Telegraph (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/recuperating-easyjet-opts-to-stick-with-international-16156631.html)

[BHD2BFS]

It says 17 routes in the article, last count I thought it was 22. Does telegraph ever get any facts right?

[EI-BUD]

If Brian Ambrose has given a committment (??) to give an update, it would feel like he must be very confident, as can hardly see him giving a negative update as it were.

To my mind, Flybe is his only hope, and if they do commit to European fligths, they would be for 2013, I would imagine. Definately no Ryanair unless they bring back STN, LPL or potentially add LTN. The costs required and given the strong bargaining position they would be in with BHD, the price would be far too high so definately think we can rule Ryanair to Europe out.

However, I stand firm to my instinct that EI will appear and will be the successor to bmi on LHR working closely with BA. BA coded many international routes with BA flight numbers and that was announced today, nothing on the domestics yet, in my view still work to be done and that will include EDI, ABZ, BHD and interestingly no changes to DUB flight codes. I would expect BA to withdraw completely and EI enter stage at BHD with a 319. EDI and ABZ come on board too.

EI-BUD

[EGAC_Ramper]

Just off a BMI baby flight and travelling over to Sydenham train halt chatted with driver. He seems to think announcement today and rumour of some Scottish firm!? Only passing on what he said so don't shoot me! :)

Regards

[david1994]

After speaking to a Flybe Station Manager, Flybe have no interest in European Routes from BHD.

[Belboy]

What time is the press conference taking place at the City?

[sarcon]

Belboy, I don't recall that anyone said there would be a press conference today. Brian A said he would confirm today if one of the four airlines they were speaking to, would be ready to take over the baby routes from June.

[dog in park]

Belfast City Airport - One week from bmibaby (http://www.belfastcityairport.com/About-Us/News/One-week-from-bmibaby-s-departure---.aspx)

[Belboy]

Is that it? I thought that it would be more positive than that.

[MontyP]

Surely the airport would have been trying to lure new business before now. Does the " week of intensive negotiations " not smell a little like desperation?

I'm sure someone here is a professor of business management. Would they care to share how they would play this hand?

[frequentflyer2]

Is it possible he's hoping BA will operate a Heathrow service from BHD, while Aer Lingus will move in, and bring some Aer Lingus Regional Services with it.

[tigger2k8]

I thought we were to find out today if they had got a replacement, not to be told to wait until June for an annoucement, by that stage everyone will have re-booked with other airlines, by June the bulk of the summer seats will be sold with EI and moving operations this year is unlikely, im going to take a guess that EI is going to use this invitation as a good excuse to get a better deal off BFS.

[corsaman]

Could one of them possibly be BA Cityflyer - from BHD into LHR and various leisure destinations? just a thought.

[CaptJ]

Just browing for some flights in Sept.
Noticed that BA.COM only offering Belfast connecting flights on IE or BE.
The ex BMI flights are indeed loaded.
Which leads to the strange situation that IE operated flights are only sold with a connection, but BD operated flights are only sold separately.
??

[BHD2BFS]

CaptJ it is simply because BD are operated as a flight to LHR or connection, why would BA sell EI as a flight to LHR when they could sell you a seat on their own aircraft. Same goes for a flight on VS I can buy a flight from BHD-MCO via LGW but I can't buy a flight from BHD-LGW on VS website. Correct me if I have misunderstood you

[EI-BUD]

There would appear to be no stats for Belfast City for European Routes for June. Amsterdam, Faro, Malaga, Alicante, Geneva, not only no numbers but no entry exists awaiting detail!

Southend Belfast International did 8945 for month 1, that would be approx 80 passengers per flight, not bad for a brand new route to a new destination. Weekend flights seem to do well and mid week loads often very soft, but it is early days!

EI-BUD

[Skipness One Echo]

BA Cityflyer - from BHD into LHR
I believe this is not permitted under current agreements with the unions. In that sense they are not welcome at LHR.

[CaptJ]

BHD2BFS

You've misread that.

BA.COM is ONLY offering connecting flights from Belfast on IE or BE.

ex BMI flights are NOT presently being offered as connections.

CaptJ

[dog in park]

panpanpan The Tele often dont put the front page story on their web site for some reason. Also they tend to side with BFS a bit. Which I will not say anymore for legal reasons. But yes SIX a day. IF EI come then TEN a day.

[sealink]

The news that BA have confirmed they will operate from BHD has just been on the local utv news!

[jonnyc]

I wonder what a/c BA will operate? Could this be for multiple routes?

[BHD2BFS]

Jonnyc they say they will only operate the LHR, although it would be nice I really can't see BA or anyone else fly to LCY.