BELFAST CITY AIRPORT (BHD)

[mart901]

Having lived for some years in Cambridge I can assure the sight of a businessman arriving at the station on a bike heading to London for the day is perfectly normal.

[left rudder]

Worth commenting on the price comparison posted by bongoo.


On example given BFS is c.15% cheaper but give land value differential [prime city site v agricultural land] nett profit at BFS is probably greater.


Regarding Second Dogs comments AFAIK Boal did not actually make a planning application.
They were forced to close because of lack of planning approval


Surely logical step is for Boal /IKEA to make a formal planning application for "Change of use" of upper car park level.
This would probably be given a sympathetic hearing by the authorities.

[BHD2BFS]

I see BHD has a profile on therouteshop.com

[shoe shine]

I hear senior people from Easyjet have met with city managers recently to discuss LGW options when Aer Lingus surrender the current slots. Could they really be considering going to city again, and if they were to relocate even some LGW operations, would FR not be straight into Aldergrove to replace them?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

IAG slots.....

Thing here is EZY are backed into a corncer with little options. They want to keep FR out of Belfast and as things stand they are doing well on that front at BFS but at BHD they would allow anybody in which would still manage to damage EZY at BFS if FR came.

EZY are been forced to operare a 3 daily LGW ex BHD.

[stab3.5up]

Unless a foreign carrier who other than EZY could take on the BHD LGW gig? BE maybe? Do EI have to give up all 3 rotations?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Stab

IAG must give up the slots not strictly EI ones and of those given up only 1 daily has to be provides at BHD.

[adfly]

It would be a bold move but there could be an outside chance of Norwegian giving it a go, given they also have a growing long and short haul network from Gatwick that could offer connecting opportunities.

[EI-BUD]

A blind man on a galloping horse could see that EasyJet need to apply for the Belfast Gatwick slots that will be surrendered by IAG. If they get them, which would keep Ryanair out ( as Ryanair don't have spare slots, and the route is attractive as slots would be made available), and by default see an exit by Aer Lingus. Whether Luton worked ex BHD is highly irrelevant as this is a whole different ball game. FR firmly has its eyes set on BFS... So keeping them out of Belfast is a top priority...

EasyJet would do v well on BHD. EI would exit and rich pickings would remain....

The IAG takeover has far reaching consequences... I deem this high risk for BHD...

[True Blue]

And allows Bfs to say to Easyjet, if you are off to talk to Bhd, then we are off to talk to Ryanair. Two can play at that game.

TB

[stab3.5up]

Very challenging times indeed for all in BHD and don't forget jobs could be at jeopardy here in BHD!

[AerRyan]

I don't fear much for BHD, imo it'll always have LHR and LGW, the EI sun routes are only muck anyway. Vueling to Barcelona and KLM to Amsterdam are 2 new services with room to grow as well.

[EI-BUD]

I think if FR do secure these slots it has to be serving BFS.
BFS would love to gain the extra business, and a LGW leaves easyJet to put up with it. But I think the odd's of FR coming on this occasion unlikely...

If EI 's future in Belfast are not certain items a sad day as they've tried really hard since they started the base in Nov2007 on BFS AMS...

No matter what happens at BFS, if they gain new routes etc at the cost of BHD, easyJet have options, despite the operational changes that present themselves at BHD, like early close/utilisation , runway etc. They could easily do many of the European routes ex those bases like GVA, CDG, AMS, BCN... These could be at off peak timings And in the process deconstruct much of BFS euro network... But that's at the extreme. I don't see it coming to that.

[West Brit]

Belfast / London Gatwick. Belfast is not a congested set of airports 'plenty of slots available'. LGW is a congested airport and IAG have to give up slots at this airport to another airline to serve Belfast / LGW. (in other words it's the London end where the issue is). Is it not the case that the operator can utilise either Belfast airport?

[EI-BUD]

West brit,
Of course Belfast is not congested. LGW slots are being made available... If it's FR who get them, it's most unlikely they'll come to BHD given the reasons they exited before.. Hence, they'd prob need to look to BFS though, I think this will be easyJet at BHD...

[OnTheRamp]

Would EZY be desperate enough to take on more slots out of LGW when their operation there is already close to breaking point and delays having serious knock ons to the rest of their network?

[mart901]

AerRyan

Just wondering what you mean when you say EI's summer sun routes are muck?

[AerRyan]

Unimportant to the airport and unguarenteeable.

[mart901]

I don't really see how either comment is true. EI operate 3 European routes from BHD out of 5. They are the only summer sunshine routes from BHD, although BCN is part city break, part summer sun. They may not come under the route guarantee but I hardly think that makes them unimportant?? They are carrying high loads, at high fares and are the type of routes that deliver high ancillary revenue. EI is carrying on under its own management and WW is quoted as saying there would be no changes to Belfast routes as a result of the sale. AGP and FAO are on sale for 2016, the 4th year running on daily basis' and PMI normally comes on stream later. If EI didn't want to be running the routes they wouldn't be, they are no charity and IAG are not likely to make very much more revenue running services anywhere else on an A320, on routes which can command up to £400 return without even taking a bag.

[EI-A330-300]

All on sale except LHR!

[AerRyan]

I heard that they are working out the timings and slots.

[mart901]

And there is a PMI shaped gap in the schedule. So I think things will stay similar for the foreseeable future. All the talk of EI suddenly disappearing at BHD because IAG own them is nothing more than conjecture. I can see something happening with LON routes, at the very least transfers will be made available on EI/LGW, a) because they have to be offered to other airlines as per terms of EU and b) its an obvious step forward to have BA's LGW network opened up to the BHD market, its a no brainer really.

[EI-BUD]

Mart901,


It is probably is conjecture, but the comments being made on here are in many cases quite realistic, will IAG look to make changes to the airline, yes, is there overcapacity on LHR BHD,yes. So there is the first reasonable discussion point. They will either be all in or out.


LGW Belfast will most like see a new entrant, and already interested parties, FR publically put its name in for it, now rumours that easyJet talking to BHD. So something will happen. EI will not stay on LGW if another carriers enters the fray. They were for out before BE announced it was throwing the towel in at LGW. They didn't put the route on sale until really late, once BE made its plans know. They wont run at a loss this time.


They have made a very good go of the European business by comparison to BmiBaby. One way or the other I can see these routes maintained either by Aer Lingus or Vueling if IAG chooses, though with a possibility of the new entrant on LGW, I'd expect not before summer 16, that would result in 2 aircraft base in summer for EI and a 1 base Winter. I'm not confident about the future strategy for EI at BHD .... just my view....


EI-BUD

[garybell]

EI4412 just left BHD for Verona. Anyone know where to find and book this flight on EI website?

[irishlad06]

You can't. It is a charter program chartered by the belfast telegraph. You have to buy a full package holiday. Think there might be a few other company's chartering some seats on it.

[garybell]

many thanks for the info. my wife wants to go to Verona.

[GAZMO]

Gary Bell
Jet2 operate flights to Verona from BFS for next few weeks

[Aaron9890]

Travelled to Barcelona with Vueling on the 27th and arrived back yesterday. The flight to Barca was barely 1/4 full, i don't know if this is to do with the date i left but i was quite surprised as the price was around £150 cheaper than flying with Easyjet from BFS. Flight back was a good bit fuller but was just wanting to ask how the numbers looked for the route so far if anyone had an idea?

Was also thinking if EI might add a sunshine route or 2 for next summer as their routes seemed to be going quite well also, when i arrived a flight from FAO came in also and was full. But a lot of people saying on here about IAG, i suppose that could have an impact on additional routes. Another limitation i can think of is the border control at BHD which is painfully slow and took 20-30 mins to get through.. additional European routes might affect this even more.

[GAZMO]

2624 passengers during the month of July with three weekly flights I believe
Therefore approx 100 pax per flight

[mart901]

Aaron

Out of interest what did you think of VY? I've booked next summer.

If its any indication of success they were very quick of the mark putting 2016 on sale. They are somewhat unknown in the NI market, although they are at DUB this while. Some low loads so far but 100 pax per flight is not a total disaster by any stretch.

[belfastmark]

Do we think that Vueling will stay on in the winter or a definte no? Seems a shame in summer easyjet and them then winter I don't think any? Easyjet stopping too I think. Surely a 2 weekly would be viable?

[GAZMO]

EZY have struggled with BCN during the winter period, even Mon and Fri departures in the winter, which is great for weekend breaks have not been that successful

[Aaron9890]

Aaron

Out of interest what did you think of VY? I've booked next summer.

If its any indication of success they were very quick of the mark putting 2016 on sale. They are somewhat unknown in the NI market, although they are at DUB this while. Some low loads so far but 100 pax per flight is not a total disaster by any stretch.


I had heard a lot before about how bad the seat space etc was but i really had no issue with that and i'm 6'1. Overall i really enjoyed the flight good service etc and flight left on time and arrived early. Only thing i didn't like was the border control in BHD on my return... but that's nothing to do with Vueling.

[mart901]

Thanks for the info Aaron, the whole legroom thing never ceases to amaze me. Read the comments online about say TCX and its all legroom related and people comparing exactly the same 757-200 against TOM and saying TOM are more generous yet they are exactly same. VY will be same as any other there's only so many ways you can squish 180 people into an aircraft!

[dantheflyboy]

See KLM offering 25th December flights into city airport, does anyone know if this is an error or is the airport opening specially for them.

[stab3.5up]

I would guess an error tbh

[garybell]

many thanks Gazmo, looking for flights around May next year.

[mart901]

EI's LHR summer 16' on sale now, same frequency but better spaced than this summer with later flight back, works well with LGW. LHR showing as A319, LGW A320.

[stab3.5up]

And BA showing an extra flight at 2030 departure for w15/16

[True Blue]

In June just past, I flew Bhd to Bodrum on Ei to Lgw then Ba on to Bjv. The Ei flight to Lgw was a BA codeshare. I am looking at flights again for next year and the BA codeshare does not appear. Considering the new arrangement in terms of ownership, does anyone have any idea why the BA codes are not showing on the EI flights to Lgw and if that will change soon?

TB

[EI-BUD]

Seems strange TB...Hopefully it's not for the can. If/when a new operator joins the route unlikely EI will hang about. They were about to hang up their boots on bhd LGW just before BE confirmed their exit. Hence, an easyJet appearance on the route would be lights out. I cant see it being later than summer 2016.ie developments and new operator announced.. So you might be on to something..

[mart901]

EI-BUD

Lot of surmising going on. In reality BE were going from LGW before EI entered the scene. LGW had given notice that they were adjusting landing fees in favour of larger aircraft. This is why BE pulled out of LGW lock, stock and barrel. You keep saying EI will exit the route and BHD, I see no basis of reality to back this up. Any operator bar FR will have an uphill battle against EZY and EI, especially as most likely candidates will have no recognition in the NI market. EI do well on every single route, just look at the starting fares they charge, BA and EZY are cheaper than them on LHR and LGW - EI can operate at £19 one way where they need to, clearly they don't at BHD.

[EI-BUD]

Mart901,

In relation to Flybe, at the time that they did finally axe the LGW route, EI did not put that route on sale until the precise day that BE announced with certainty that they were axing the route. And at the point it was the only route that was still not on sale. It is completely reasonable to assume in my view that if BE stayed EI would have discontinued the route.

Thankfully they stayed. My point is that if another carrier, i.e. FR or easyJet enter the LGW BHD market, I cannot see EI sticking it out. They didn't stick any competition from easyJet on direct routes ex LGW, they bowed out and they haven't remained on any route ex LGW against Ryanair apart from Dublin. Hence my rationale, I certainly hope that I am wrong. But it is my view that it is only a matter of time before the orange machine strategically reinstates a BHD route. Make of that what you will.

In relation to BE at LGW again, it was all rumours and nothing concrete until they announcement came out. They kept the Newquay route on in the 11th hour, that was never forseen... So anything can happen. . .

I use BHD LGW quite a bit and would hope it to remain on as an EI route into the future...

EI-BUD

[mart901]

Nothing would entirely cease to amaze me but after last time I can't see EZY turning up at BHD. Surely also at some point won't EI offer connection through LGW into IAG? The potential for which is huge, BA tend to offer much cheaper flights ex LGW than LHR. I do agree though with the general consensus that remove FR from the equation and the only other contender is DY. I may be wrong but I don't see the LGW-BHD route as a big enough money spinner for the likes of FR or DY to plough lots of slots and resources into it, and have to go up against EZY and all the other London to Belfast routes.

[stab3.5up]

Would Jet2 give BHD LGW a go maybe?

[speedrestriction]

Jet2 - unlikely. No route overlap with the rest of their network so it would be difficult to optimise the line of work. Also it is not what people associate Jet2 with so they would have to plough a lot into marketing. I reckon the best fit would be one of the big LGW locos.

[True Blue]

I see BA are code sharing on Dub-Lgw/Lhr. They do not seem to be code sharing on any flight out of Bhd. I wonder what that might mean for EI at Bhd?

TB

[BFS watcher]

Big rumour flying around that the American shareholders of BFS have offered to buy BHD. I suppose DAA walked away because it was too rich for them. The Yanks seem to have lots of money

[eastern wiseguy]

Hmm there's a great idea (honestly...ZERO sarcasm).

Combine the ATC functions with BFS doing the radar and, tower only persons at BHD .

Obvious savings right off the bat.

I could lie and say it hasn't been proposed and costed before....but I won't. Go for it.

[El Bunto]

Wouldn't necessarily even need people in the tower; Cork and Shannon are being transitioned to remote-tower operation with the controllers located in Dublin.

[shoe shine]

BFS Watcher. Good story, except that the American shareholder in BFS exited the scene over a year ago

[ILS25]

Shoe shine, correct me if I'm wrong but are Airports Worldwide (formally ADC&HAS) not still an American company even though they are majority owned by Omers who are Canadian.

[Una Due Tfc]

Wouldn't necessarily even need people in the tower; Cork and Shannon are being transitioned to remote-tower operation with the controllers located in Dublin.

Only at night....for now....

[Tower Ranger]

Or if you want to save even more money let the BHD controllers do AA radar!!

[eastern wiseguy]

How would that work on nights TR? :E :ok::ok:

[Tower Ranger]

Well at nights AA don't AA run the 5 Watch system, just one working and 5 watching lol! I guess a Tower Controller can sit in Sydenham and watch the ATM just as easily.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Airport not for sale so that put speculation to bed.

[ILS25]

Good!

Also put's to bed the speculation that the DAA were looking at buying it.

[EI-A330-300]

Another based aircraft:
Alicante begins 29 April 5 weekly
Faro increases from 7 to 9 weekly
Malaga increase from 7 to 9 weekly
Palma increases from 2 to 5 weekly

Puts to rest all the EI are not making money etc.....

Guess always the change it could be the LGW aircraft taking these on.

A320 will replace 319 on LHR as well.

[keep_er_lit]

Another based aircraft:
Alicante begins 29 April 5 weekly
Faro increases from 7 to 9 weekly
Malaga increase from 7 to 9 weekly
Palma increases from 2 to 5 weekly

Puts to rest all the EI are not making money etc.....

Guess always the change it could be the LGW aircraft taking these on.

A320 will replace 319 on LHR as well.

Would that definitely mean a new based aircraft, taking it from 3 to 4? Or would the flights be done with a w pattern by a Dublin aircraft?

[EI-A330-300]

All BHD based but guess what happens with LGW will decided if a fourth aircraft is required.

[EI-BUD]

Best news ever! There is 320 on LHR yesterday, it hasn't been on the route for some time, I expect 319 coming back for LHR for Winter season?

[mart901]

Really great news, ALC a natural next step. Extra frequency should drive competition, summer sunshine is over priced from NI, I have even heard of people going from here to EDI and onto ALC to save money recently! That puts the DUB situation into perspective.

[GAZMO]

Certainly going to be some cheap sunshine flights next year. With EI announcement plus FAO back again from LDY and Jet2 increased services to PMI and FAO its going to be interesting

[Shamrock350]

Best news ever! There is 320 on LHR yesterday, it hasn't been on the route for some time, I expect 319 coming back for LHR for Winter season?
I believe the A319s will begin leaving the fleet shortly anyway so LHR will likely become a mix of A319/A320 until reverting completely to A320 at the start of the summer schedule.

[BHD2BFS]

excellent news
But where are they going to park
4x EI
1x BA
8x BE
And potentially a night stopping KLM

[ESCNI]

I believe the top floor of the IKEA car park is available.

;)

[panpanpanpan]

Never mind parking the aircraft, where will all the extra passengers park as well? I have heard on the grapevine that FlyBe are parking a spare airframe over the winter as well to use on that rare occasion when something goes tech.:hmm:

[stab3.5up]

Surely they must be looking at building new stands if not planning on remote parked turns. Won't be long until BHD becomes a slot coordinated airport as it must be a stand planning nightmare as they really have so much to pack in between 0630 and 2130

[sealink]

I believe Dash can park at the old terminal and paxs coached the a/c and also 1 airbus i.e. EI FAO can park in an area of the old terminal that has had the ramp area strengthened again coaching paxs to a/c.
They should also invest in a taxiway way towards the lough to save on back tracking.

[HeathrowDictator]

Stand 24 was created when the sunshine routes were started, for the based A320 to park on the nightstop (as pax have to be bussed around to International Arrivals anyway). As part of that, Stand 21 was formally marked out which can park a DH8D. I remember a spare one being parked there a lot of Winter 2013/4.

With those two stands, that brings the total number to 12 - still 1 or 2 short of the required if the numbers quoted by BHD2BFS are correct.

That said, the management are very forward thinking and aren't afraid to spend money on infrastructure should it be required. Is there a possibility of parking something over on the north side (where the Bombardier visitors go)?

Great news for BHD, just need some more punters car parking now to keep up with the increased demand, stick a multi story on the current short stay?

-HD-

[belfastmark]

Really great news. But God the same routes multiplied. Surely would they not be better having one or two niche routes. Look at Jet2 to Dubrovnik prices are always sky high. Personally I think they would have been better using the extra Fao and Agp rotations on new routes.

On another note about aircraft parking. With all these international flights I think a good idea would me to revamp stands 8-10 to take big a320 that way no need for buses as could walk straight into international arrivals and not disrupting other services too much!

[El Bunto]

I must have been sleeping, when did Aer Lingus shunt the London flights onto the useless-for-business 07:30+ period?

Need to pop to London for meetings in January and only FlyBE's 06:30 and BA's 06:55 are practical. Didn't Lingus used to have a brace at 06:40 and 06:45? Are they giving-up on the corporate market and going all bucket-and-spade?

/me returns to dozing

Oh looks like the last 06:45 EIN020 to Gatters was 28th March 2015.

Oh2, I hadn't set the date correctly on the super-slow website. Disregard all my witterings. 06:45 is available again from 23rd October.

[irishlad06]

Confirmed flybe will be 9x dh4 based aircraft this winter with

1 x edi aircraft operating 10 sectors,
1x GLA aircraft operating 4 sectors
1 x man operating 4 sectors
1 x sou operating 2 sectors
1 x BHX operating 6 sectors
1 x ABZ operating 2 sectors

1 aircraft will be a spare aircraft in BHD and will be parked at bombardier.

[mart901]

Out of interest in the Telegraph today;

New Belfast to Germany route still on Aer Lingus agenda - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/new-belfast-to-germany-route-still-on-aer-lingus-agenda-31594811.html)

[cessnarocket]

May put readymix onstandby,all these extra flights will take its toll on the little runway void problem..

[AIRPORT66]

Keep that quiet nobody mean't to know about that big problem they have.

[OneBellEnd]

This is all very interesting and encouraging.


Who is Mike Rutter? I'm sure I've come across his name before, but thought he was a racing motorcyclist!!?

[GAZMO]

Think he is ex Flybe

[panpanpanpan]

So it's more of the same routes, so what? If Aer Lingus have found a market that works and is making them some cash then why would they not exploit it?:confused:

Cessna & 666, what are you on about with voids in runways?:confused: The only damage I heard on the grapevine was when Mr A dropped his wallet and left a rather large crater, maybe he could use some of his £60k pay rise to help with the repairs.:ooh: Apparently the accountant Mr Mc dropped his wallet but it hit him on the back of the head so no harm done. :hmm:

[larry the man]

Mr Rutter is indeed ex flybe, then he ran part of its European operation and before that I believe he was in Hoover, in the 90s.

[EI-BUD]

Seriously Panpanpan....

Only £60k, at multiply by2 for hos responsibility and the level of responsibility....

Sorry just realised you'd written pay rise... Nice work of you can get it, more power to him!

[panpanpanpan]

Maybe its just me and my old fashioned viewpoint but I have always tried to keep anyone working for me onside as much as possible, alienating yourself from staff by taking a massive % pay rise while pleading poverty at pay negotiations doesn't do any favours for ones credibility. It certainly doesn't breed any form of loyalty amongst staff either. I must ask my contacts at Harbour how much of a bonus the ordinary workers got last year, I would take a punt that it wasn't in the 60k region.:hmm: Having said that Mr A is obviously doing the right things when it comes to attracting new business so perhaps he is worth the annual 300k plus package?:ooh:

[SecondDog]

Maybe its just me and my old fashioned viewpoint but I have always tried to keep anyone working for me onside as much as possible, alienating yourself from staff by taking a massive % pay rise while pleading poverty at pay negotiations doesn't do any favours for ones credibility. It certainly doesn't breed any form of loyalty amongst staff either. I must ask my contacts at Harbour how much of a bonus the ordinary workers got last year, I would take a punt that it wasn't in the 60k region.:hmm: Having said that Mr A is obviously doing the right things when it comes to attracting new business so perhaps he is worth the annual 300k plus package?:ooh:

I don't know what he is on but in terms of his DUP persuasion and his chairmanship of the Irish tourism board that pays all the airlines to fly from there, I am certain the owners are willing to pay it. ;-)

[elle may clampit]

The payment to KLM to start a route to AMS which was already served from NI was 525k euro. Regardless of whether this was from Tourism Ireland or any other government body, it is a disgrace. The money still came from Northern Ireland and could have been better used in the hard pressed health service or funding starved education system. I take it the Minister in charge of INI had to approve the award of this money?

[GAZMO]

Have to agree. If it was a new route from NI then fine, but the route is already offered by EZY. Money should only be used for NEW routes from NI airports

[SecondDog]

Strangely enough I disagree. TI is a cross border body designed to promote the island abroad. I like this part and think their investment is necessary to promote growth in multiple sectors.

However, given the amount per passenger that was offered to KLM per head compared to what other potential services that could be/have been mooted from BFS have been offered per head, this should be creating some very awkward questions for the chairman of TI in his position as CEO of the beneficiary airport (Given as pointed out by many that AMS was already served by BFS and therefore KLM was only really likely to choose BHD)

Somehow though these questions are not being asked. I believe this is because of the same political influence that shut down Boal so that they can monopolize car parking. This poses more questions about jobs for the boyos in Northern Ireland and casts a very large shadow over potential development of the aviation sector in N.I.

Meanwhile DUB sails into the sunset laughing all the way to the big American bank.

[True Blue]

These bodies and government departments do not have money. They only have our money, taken away from us in taxes etc. But it is easy to make these decisions when it is not your money. Next time you have a relative needing into hospital and they are told they will have to wait on a trolly for many hours due a shortage of beds, think on this grant. Wait for the next one.

Conflict of interest!!

Obscene.

[shoe shine]

Conflict of interest, yes. Obscene, yes. It's a total disgrace but not one bit surprising. The links to the party are working well, evidenced by the money from TI, the Chairman was a party appointment, and the treatment of Boal. I suppose there is little point in even raising this as the 'party' don't seem to do 'wrong', or initiatives of genuine wider public interest, and aren't embarrassed by anything.

[sarcon]

when is the issue over the Gatwick slots due to be resolved?

[OneBellEnd]

Shoe Shine. Much as I have time on my hands, I really haven't got enough time to do this topic justice on here....


The DUP connection at city Airport has always been deep-seated, but it has gotten truly ridiculous and flagrant in the last few years, topped by the boss at the airport being appointed to the chair's role in Ireland Tourism, by the leadership of the DUP, whose choice alone it was to make.


I suppose all that can be said now is that, at long last, the term DUP has become a recognised by-word for Scandal and presumably ALL of this stuff will very soon get brought out into the light on full display alongside NAMA, Spads and Edwin Poots standing holding his Neb!


Frankly, since the good doc stepped aside, the DUP's unimaginable arrogance and disdain for everything around them that doesn't directly benefit them, has virtually Sanctified the comparative approach of Sinn Fein, even amongst a large body of NI people who were lifelong True Blues! :mad:

[panpanpanpan]

As much as I enjoy aviation and the behind the scenes goings on I have no knowledge nor have I ever heard that the DUP or any other political party have a direct role in our airports! Perhaps I am being naive. In my line of business I avoid politicians like the plague but maybe to do business in an airport environment you have to sell your soul at times to make the deals? If as alleged the DUP are pulling strings at Harbour then I am sure the same could be said for (insert political party of choice) doing exactly the same at Lough Neagh International.:E

On a separate matter, has there been any decision on seats for sale or are we waiting for the political merry go round to stop for a few days to get a decision there as well?:ugh:

[mart901]

Ultimately whilst I agree some of the goings on of our politicians, conjecture or otherwise is questionable, strings being pulled and money being offered as route incentive is going on in many countries, this is often why FR have appeared in many the random French or Italian airport. The Welsh assembly is practically paying BE to be in CWL. Getting KLM into BHD is a great coup, and yes U2 operate the route but they don't connect into one of the best airline hubs in Europe, they are point to point. In order to win customers back from DUB and bring new customers to the province there needs to be competitive alternatives to LHR, competition is the best way to achieve it. So roll on BRU and LGW connecting flights in my opinion - the more the merrier, if we can't get every route direct at least a comprehensive network of connecting hubs.

[SecondDog]

Panpan:

The International has had no govt. friends for a long time. New MD is trying to gather support from local MLAs and councillors but it is a long way back. This is evident in Harbour's massive influence over Tourism Ireland.

Seats for sale is due this month but any positive outcome will be subject to appeal no doubt as it won't suit everyone.

[left rudder]

Must say I have really enjoyed recent posts re perceived advantage of BHD due to political influence.
I am old enough to recall when the Hon Hugh O'Neill was Chairman of BIAL and NITB.
He moved heaven and earth to disadvantage City, including vetoing the provision of a NITB Welcome Kiosk at City.
I suppose what goes around comes around.


If BFS is lacking political influence, and I seriously doubt this then they need to get out there and work on it.

[EI-BUD]

Airbus 321 enroute from Heathrow... Not a common sight here!!!

[PPRuNeUser0176]

B Telegraph reports that BHD have baged BRU and formal announcement on Monday.

[mart901]

Indeed, here's the link;

Brussels sprouts first air link with Belfast for 14 years - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brussels-sprouts-first-air-link-with-belfast-for-14-years-34116225.html)

[panpanpanpan]

I must admit the current posts are more informative and give a different perspective than the "my airport is better than yours" routine which was getting rather tiresome!

In these days of FOI requests and electronic trails of communications being left in everything we do, it would be a very brave or foolish politician that would leave themselves open in months or years to come of accusations of dodgy dealings or bias. Surely they are meant to serve us and what is best for the country and not their own interests.:hmm:

SecondDog, ref the seats for sale, I find it incredibly frustrating that a decision can be continuously appealed time and time again, particularly when the process is driven by your main competitor! There is a whiff of the runway extension debacle about this one, no doubt we will have BCAW (whatever happened them by the way, been very quiet recently) dragged out after being briefed by Aldergrove on how seats for sale increase will kill their Granny, break the roof tiles of their roof and destroy all the local kids education.:ugh:

[SecondDog]

I must admit the current posts are more informative and give a different perspective than the "my airport is better than yours" routine which was getting rather tiresome!

In these days of FOI requests and electronic trails of communications being left in everything we do, it would be a very brave or foolish politician that would leave themselves open in months or years to come of accusations of dodgy dealings or bias. Surely they are meant to serve us and what is best for the country and not their own interests.:hmm:

SecondDog, ref the seats for sale, I find it incredibly frustrating that a decision can be continuously appealed time and time again, particularly when the process is driven by your main competitor! There is a whiff of the runway extension debacle about this one, no doubt we will have BCAW (whatever happened them by the way, been very quiet recently) dragged out after being briefed by Aldergrove on how seats for sale increase will kill their Granny, break the roof tiles of their roof and destroy all the local kids education.:ugh:

Speaking of recent posts. The ones about the major fault with the BHD runway. I take it that was just teasing?

As for the legal stuff, I suppose they have to really. Don't forget BCA have the same idea with the Crumlin complainers, all a bit tit for tat for me but such is life.

disappointed to hear BRU will be another going to City. BFS just cannot seem to attract an interliner. No good for N.I. in big picture v DUB.

[mart901]

SecondDog

In what way is it not good in the bigger picture for NI v Dub? The fact that the route is coming to Belfast is surely the desired outcome? How exactly would it be better to have it landing and taking off in a less central location?

[SecondDog]

SecondDog

In what way is it not good in the bigger picture for NI v Dub? The fact that the route is coming to Belfast is surely the desired outcome? How exactly would it be better to have it landing and taking off in a less central location?

In what way is BHD more central for N.I. than BFS? It is nonsense to say 14 miles outside the city is any kind of issue for an international airport. The City's location is more hindrance than help for them too in the long run

Regardless of that, when these airlines choose city it usually means smaller aircraft, which target business travel, which drives prices up. I think this only serves to limit N.I. travellers (back to the old chestnut of N.I. having two main airports instead of one) which only lets DUB batter on ahead with the big carriers taking most of the traffic.

Yes, good that BRU is coming in terms of a new route but in (admittedly my view of) the bigger picture, we are only cutting tripe out of our own development potential by having to fight each other for scraps rather than trying to focus on taking a seat at the big table.

still, I realise I am on the wrong thread for that kind of view so not expecting common sense to be a factor. Divided Airports in a community that doesn't like to agree on anything is quite apt, philosophically speaking......

[mart901]

I see some of the point but on the other hand remember the A320's EI are running out of BHD and BA can go up to A321 as required. Neither KLM or Brussels airlines particularly operate large aircraft to anywhere in the UK, I can't see either operating anything larger out of BFS. Yes the Sydenham bypass is a pain at peak times, I travelled against the traffic to Bangor last week I know only too well! But fact remains BHD is brilliant for business and thats where the money is. Also judging by CAA stats the bucket and spade customer is more than happy with the location.

[panpanpanpan]

And back to the old debate we go, didn't take long! That nonsensical notion that if only Harbour weren't there and stealing the traffic that really belongs to Aldergrove then the 777s and 380s would be fighting each other to get in just doesn't stack up, pardon the pun.:p

I still say why can't we all accept there are 2 independant and profit making airports in NI and one lame duck that needs put out of its misery in the North West. If and when market forces decide a second airport out of the three also becomes a financial black hole then that will say who stays open and who closes.:cool: Until that happens, if ever, enjoy the competition and flexibility we all have and use.:ok:

[mart901]

Exactly, totally agree. Let the best airport win. Both Belfast airports have advantages of their own and as panpanpanpan states it brings competition. BFS have transatlantic, charter, low cost airlines in particular U2, 24 hr operations. City have an unrivalled location, a train station adjacent, quality airlines with connection services. Let them both get on with it and compete.

[True Blue]

Left Rudder

I accept what you say re times gone past. However, I think it is fairly accurate to say that the losers in that type of system is the ordinary people and I include myself in that section. Hence the reason that in 2015 business is supposed to be done on merit, especially where that business affects many people.

I think we have a long way to go yet to ensure fairness.

Re 2/3 airports, you can argue all you want, but it is completely idiotic for a population of about 1.8m to have 3 airports fighting for what is limited business.

TB

[mart901]

And yet true blue discounting LDY which is another issue entirely both Belfast airports are in growth, attracting new routes and profit. And all that with DUB claiming to be enticing more NI pax than ever before.

[True Blue]

But neither is big and strong, that is the point.

TB

[SecondDog]

Exactly, totally agree. Let the best airport win. Both Belfast airports have advantages of their own and as panpanpanpan states it brings competition. BFS have transatlantic, charter, low cost airlines in particular U2, 24 hr operations. City have an unrivalled location, a train station adjacent, quality airlines with connection services. Let them both get on with it and compete.

No. Just No. Let the best airport win is not helping aviation in N.I. it is just maintaining the lack of direction from politicians. City doesn't have an unrivalled position because it can never house the larger aircraft. Even if they can take the 321 on occasion (and I believe they are restricted to make it in/out), I would imagine quite a few pilots having to retire early with stress if they were flying it in there all the time. It has curfew which doesn't suit freight or low cost carrier logistics. It has a painfully short runway. The train station doesn't make much difference in N.I. because our rail network is rubbish and slow. The quality airlines you mention hold the airport to ransom for cheaper deals because they know the airport has to keep them or they close.

These are the reasons why we should consolidate aviation in N.I. to BFS because the business folks would still fly from there and it is only 25 mins up the road from Belfast and easier to get to for a lot of the rest of the country.

I know that wouldn't suit everyone but the way we are going only helps DUB.

[mart901]

In reality though the growth at DUB is being driven by aircraft which already fly unto BHD, i.e. A320. If airlines want to serve here they will, its based on demand. Its also up to people including our travel agents to support our local airports where possible. Speaking to a colleague at work recently who lives here, north of Belfast. Thomas cooks have booked her on a Las Vegas package next year flying via LGW, originating in DUB. Why???? That has nothing to do with us having 2 airports.

[panpanpanpan]

SecondDog, the restrictions enforced at Harbour are legacy issues which have been continuously reinforced by the Aldergrove sponsored puppets in the guise of concerned residents. Seats for sale, runway extension, curfew hours to name but a few. I think Aldergrove are painfully aware that if Harbour was given a free run at a free and fair expansion proposition without being continually hampered by legal shenanigans from their main competitor then the outlook would be somewhat different.:=

I know it seems like groundhog day yet again on this forum but its simply incredulous to expect a successful and thriving business to close the doors, make employees redundant for the sole purpose of giving a direct competitor a better chance to compete with a third entity in a different jurisdiction. Utter madness and crazy talk!:ugh: I would say that applies to both parties by the way, Harbour have no right to demand Aldergrove shut either even though some days it seems like its already closed up there. I flew out from Aldergrove last week on a trip and there was a 4 hour gap in flights in the middle of the day! I thought I had been left at Eglinton by mistake!:ooh:

[mart901]

Thank you for the sobering post panpanpanpan. The truth of the matter is however both Belfast airports are in growth and new routes are appearing. It's just unfortunate that whenever BHD attracts a new carrier or route there is an accusation of foul play, or the suggestion it won't last or the latest one - it's just playing into DUB's hands. In fact, the irony of it all is BFS is in more growth pax wise than BHD, we should celebrate that!

[benjyyy]

But even somewhere way west like Omagh it's still easier to get to BHD than BFS. Look at the public transport options - you have to get a bus to the Europa to get another bus for 30mins to BFS ; and that journey costs £7.50 each way. Or you can just get a bus that drops you outside Dublin airport for cheaper.

[mart901]

And despite those shortcomings BFS is in growth. That's a very good point about public transport. Parking however is cheap

[Jackmyboy12]

Thought I would just throw this into the discussion on BFS V BHD I booked four return flights from Dub to LPL came to a total of €81 I live 19 miles from BHD and 21 miles from BFS but for that price I drove 80 miles to DUB and I guess that is the main reason the more and more people are doing the same

[CaptJ]

[QUOTE=panpanpanpan;9151429]SecondDog, the restrictions enforced at Harbour are legacy issues which have been continuously reinforced by the Aldergrove sponsored puppets in the guise of concerned residents. Seats for sale, runway extension, curfew hours to name but a few. I think Aldergrove are painfully aware that if Harbour was given a free run at a free and fair expansion proposition without being continually hampered by legal shenanigans from their main competitor then the outlook would be somewhat different.:=

I know it seems like groundhog day yet again on this forum but its simply incredulous to expect a successful and thriving business to close the doors, make employees redundant for the sole purpose of giving a direct competitor a better chance to compete with a third entity in a different jurisdiction. Utter madness and crazy talk!:ugh: I would say that applies to both parties by the way, Harbour have no right to demand Aldergrove shut either even though some days it seems like its already closed up there. I flew out from Aldergrove last week on a trip and there was a 4 hour gap in flights in the middle of the day! I thought I had been left at Eglinton by mistake!:ooh:[/QUOTE
Utter utter nonsense.
There is no link whatsoever between BFS and people sick of aircraft noise.
Pretty slanderous I'd say.
This guy spouts nonsense in an aggressive manner. One of a number who have spolt this forum.

[True Blue]

Why should the cap on pax numbers be lifted? There is an airport some 30 minutes up the road that has the capacity to handle all the pax that will ever want to travel in/out of NI for many years to come.

When BHD started, it was to handle smaller aircraft on routes to the mainland. That was ok for a while. Then it started to take bigger aircraft, wants to lift the pax numbers, wanted to extend the runway, now takes international flights. It knew what the rules were when it started, just like Ryanair did, same with KLM who were wanting an earlier operating time. All this almost in the middle of a city. A great example of starting at point A, than pressing all the time for the rules to be changed. The requests should all be refused, end of.

TB

[panpanpanpan]

CaptJ, I'm not a troll and don't consider myself to be an aggressive old duffer either! May I respectfully suggest you go back over some of your old posts and reflect accordingly. There's an old saying about removing the plank from your own eye before taking the twig out of someone else's - or something to that end anyway! I think you'll find you have been fairly vocal and aggressive yourself in times gone by. :=

Now as this has simply gone back to the old worn out debates yet again I am beginning to lose interest, pity really, just when the debate was widening. :D

[SecondDog]

Thought I would just throw this into the discussion on BFS V BHD I booked four return flights from Dub to LPL came to a total of €81 I live 19 miles from BHD and 21 miles from BFS but for that price I drove 80 miles to DUB and I guess that is the main reason the more and more people are doing the same

appreciate that JMB12, however this is an example of effect rather than cause. If N.I. sorted itself out and created aviation masterplan, removing APD. The fares you mention would be more easily matched from your local airport.

[SecondDog]

CaptJ, I'm not a troll and don't consider myself to be an aggressive old duffer either! May I respectfully suggest you go back over some of your old posts and reflect accordingly. There's an old saying about removing the plank from your own eye before taking the twig out of someone else's - or something to that end anyway! I think you'll find you have been fairly vocal and aggressive yourself in times gone by. :=

Now as this has simply gone back to the old worn out debates yet again I am beginning to lose interest, pity really, just when the debate was widening. :D

Pan. I don't consider you a troll and quite happy to think about your alternate point of view. I realise it become repetitive on here at times but I consider that to mean we have distilled the thing down to its fundamental issue. The more interesting chat is limited because info is not easily sought or given with any bus. dev. talks or legal proceedings.

[mart901]

Well the good news continues.......Brussels airlines is 5 weekly from end of March, using avro aircraft. Afternoon departure slots. Tue and Sat will be the gaps.:D

[panpanpanpan]

Good news indeed for NI, more pax coming through any airport and into the country spending their cash can't be a bad thing.:ok:

TrueBlue, never mind lifting a pax cap, why should there be one in the first place? If I recall the original cap was put in place by planners to do with physical numbers going through the old Harbour terminal, probably using the same logic as limiting the numbers in a nightclub etc, no problem with that. When the new terminal was built this relic should have gone with it rather than be used as a club by legal types to beat the potential business expansion to death. Only in NI could business be artificially stifled whilst at the same time the same people are happy to complain about lack of jobs and opportunities being created.:rolleyes:

[Jamie2k9]

appreciate that JMB12, however this is an example of effect rather than cause. If N.I. sorted itself out and created aviation masterplan, removing APD. The fares you mention would be more easily matched from your local airport. Not strictly correct, the only reasons Jackmyboy12 got such a deal is because EI are starting this Friday and FR have been pushed into very low pricing. Easily paying between €5-10 more per flight if EI didn't decide to launch the route.

APD goes in NI, I bet you won't see EasyJet match the 9.99 fares to LPL.

[SecondDog]

Not strictly correct, the only reasons Jackmyboy12 got such a deal is because EI are starting this Friday and FR have been pushed into very low pricing. Easily paying between €5-10 more per flight if EI didn't decide to launch the route.

APD goes in NI, I bet you won't see EasyJet match the 9.99 fares to LPL.

My point though is IF N.I. could consolidate its aviation strategy, we would have more airlines flying from BFS and instigate the type of competition you refer to.

[belfastmark]

Fantastic news indeed on the new route. It's nice to see a brand new destination. I hope it will do well. Fingers crossed now for a route to Germany! I wonder would Vueling do any more routes next summer?

[El Bunto]

. The quality airlines you mention hold the airport to ransom for cheaper deals because they know the airport has to keep them or they close.
What a strange statement.

Have a look at the International passenger movements for today:

Live Flight Information | Belfast International Airport (http://www.belfastairport.com/flights/live-flight-information)

Three Jet2 arrivals, one Thomas Cook... and EVERY single other arrival is Easyjet. Who's holding what airport to ransom, pray tell?

At least City are trying to spread their bets across a number of airlines, even if FlyBE remain dominant they're at least not holding the core hub connections.

City could just about survive the loss of FlyBE, or two of the second-tier. International would be nothing if Easyjet withdrew ( unless you start counting freight and medical movements, plus those SOCATAs on delivery, oh and the AAC Islanders... I suppose they could all chip in a few more quid to keep the runways swept )

[True Blue]

And where would EasyJet withdraw to in NI?


TB

[EGAC is Better]

A very welcome delvelopment re: Brussels Airlines at BHD. This route will no doubt be well utilised by those who frequent the European Parliament in Brussels. Could also be a toe in the water by the Lufthansa group to gain first hand knowledge of demand via onward connections.

BHD are facing some very unique challenges posed by this recent rapid growth. One of which will erode away further one of the reasons I love using BHD ie. Small, less busy spaces with shrt walks to/from aircraft. Parking has also been discussed at length both for passengers and aircraft. It will be interesting to see this develop.

In terms of the debate around passenger numbers cap I think it should be removed. The people of Northern Ireland should be free to choose which airport they fly from and that should be done so with both Belfast airports operating on an equal playing field. It is becoming clear that BHD appears the airport of choice for the perceived premium carriers serving NI and the majority of those new entrants.

From a purely observers perspecitive, would it be possible to implement on a more permanent basis the looped departure as was used from 04 a number of years ago? Inseem to recall it being referred to locally as the Paddy1A departure? Could a similar departure with a right turn from 22 be used to minimise aircraft noise over Belfast? AC

[West Brit]

Seats for sale cap is an excellent mechanism for controlling growth at BHD. IF removed BHD could expand to 4 million pa without going over the cap on flights. This would upset the aviation balance in NI. Noise pollution is a massive issue at BHD and must be controlled. Most professionals who are in the know would realise this so I wouldn't expect it to be removed - however never say never.
If I remember correctly the analogy in defence of the cap removal from management at the city airport went something like 'it's like having a 300 bedroom hotel and only able to fill 250 rooms'. Well why did you build a 300 bedroom hotel when you knew you could only hire out 250 rooms?

[BHD2BFS]

Obviously their investment in therouteshop.com has paid of that's 2 routes they are advertising for and have got

I wouldn't be surprised if management is trying to poach wizzair from BFS

[belfastmark]

Seats for sale cap is an excellent mechanism for controlling growth at BHD. IF removed BHD could expand to 4 million pa without going over the cap on flights. This would upset the aviation balance in NI. Noise pollution is a massive issue at BHD and must be controlled. Most professionals who are in the know would realise this so I wouldn't expect it to be removed - however never say never.
If I remember correctly the analogy in defence of the cap removal from management at the city airport went something like 'it's like having a 300 bedroom hotel and only able to fill 250 rooms'. Well why did you build a 300 bedroom hotel when you knew you could only hire out 250 rooms?

I can't quite grasp your thinking. If an airport is attracting new airlines and boosting the local economy with jobs at the airport and inbound pax spending money why the hell shouldn't it be allowed to grow? It shouldn't be restrained it should be encouraged. For th benefit of N.Ireland.

And all this bull about there's another airport up the road, valid point.. But Why didn't BA go back up there, why did IOM flights move to city, why did Veuling, Klm and Brussel Airlines choose City Airport? because they want to fly from there. It suits them better. Simple as that. Easyjet, Jet 2 etc are happy in the other airport with its longer runway and 24 hours ops. So why not let both airports grow if they can?

[West Brit]

The government white paper on the future of aviation stated that the majority of future growth should happen at BFS. The city airport is in a built-up area. The same could be said about LCY. Close LHR and expand LCY because business wants an airport at the centre of London. If the airport passenger cap remains then BHD is running out of room and airlines would be forced to use BFS for additional capacity. Thus residents are protected and additional jobs would be created at BFS. Somehow I don't think airlines will refuse to come to NI because they can't use BHD.

[panpanpanpan]

Using the same logic as seems to be demonstrated by others on this board, I see there are potentially 9000 new jobs to be created in the Titanic quarter. I say this should be stopped now, the extra cars will create traffic problems and pollution, the extra people will cause problems needing to be fed and looked after, it will be busy a lot longer during the day, this is a disaster! There are plenty of areas way outside Belfast that could be used, what's wrong with Ballymena or Omagh?

Sounds a bit ridiculous in this context doesn't it? New jobs and growth should be encouraged and the people that make it happen should be applauded. There are a few who will never be happy about anything, ever! Change is bad! :ugh:

Westbrit, as far as I know LHR aren't actively seeking LCY to close, correct me if I'm wrong? Looking at LCY flight info, Harbour has a long way to go before catching up!

[West Brit]

I can't understand what the problem is here with people who just don't seem to grasp the issues with relation to planning etc it is common sense.

[True Blue]

And some seem to miss the point that, given an open road, capitalism walks all over us mere human beings. Change is not bad, but not all change is good and in some areas, a degree of control is necessary. At what point do you think BHd will say, we are big enough? And some day, that might be something happening right beside your home and you might be glad of a few rules.

[panpanpanpan]

I can't understand why a commercial business that has still room to expand and grow should be disadvantaged to let a competitor try and achieve their aspirations! It's a free market economy and job creation and competition should be encouraged. :ok:

[EI-BUD]

This debate is the same old drill as before... Nothing new really people. Some in favour of one or the other. Just scroll back to a few years ago and the same argument... Sadly the views being posted in the main are short term in nature, failing to consider the strategic perspective of what is right for the long term providing for the adequate level of return to make reinvestment possible to the necessary levels. Before I get a barage of responses, I fly from BHD, it is my local airport, I like it a lot.

[pholling]

can't understand what the problem is here with people who just don't seem to grasp the issues with relation to planning etc it is common sense.

And some seem to miss the point that, given an open road, capitalism walks all over us mere human beings. Change is not bad, but not all change is good and in some areas, a degree of control is necessary. At what point do you think BHd will say, we are big enough? And some day, that might be something happening right beside your home and you might be glad of a few rules.

The saying 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' comes to mind. The issue isn't that there isn't a valid reason for looking at the benefits, externalities and distributional effects of growth at BHD. There is, and people will disagree on what those benefits are and how to compensate people for the externalities and distributional effects. The problem is that a seat cap, is not a particularly good way to limit the effects. It does not directly effect noise, there are lots of other variables that effect community noise. Far more effective would be to have a Quota limit for noise. A lot of current aircraft flying out of BHD, i.e. A320s, have a higher noise exposure per passenger then larger aircraft. This is because of the physics of gas turbine design. Yes a 777 is louder than and A320, but it takes more A320 flights to lift the same payload and the reduction in noise exposure is not commensurate with the increase in operations. Further, while passenger numbers do effect traffic, the mix of traffic is often more important for congestion. If people are being dropped off by personal automobiles or private hire cars that has a far higher impact than those travellers who take public transport, hackney carriages and park at the airport.

A seat for sale limit is crude but easy. There are a lot of deadweight losses, i.e. it is not efficient. A more nuanced policy could produce overall be better, have less externalities and better distributional effects. However, politicians and voters don't like well thought-out policies, because they are 'hard'.

[mart901]

It would possibility be easier for everyone if BHD didn't get any more new routes because reading this same old drivel every time it happens is becoming painful. Nowhere else in the world could aviation enthusiasts develop a passion for noise pollution and regard airport growth capitalism. Just look for instance at the SEN forum and the attitude of posters towards what they regard as nimbys. Best of it is there's people posting on here that don't live anywhere near East Belfast. Thankfully plane spotters don't make airport planning decisions. Now can everybody catch themselves on and leave this nonsense behind them.

[madgav]

As a long time reader of, and occasional poster on, both the BFS and BHD threads, I find myself very much in agreement with the idea that from the point of view of growth, route development/sustainability, and simply mounting a stronger challenge to DUB, we would be far better off with one airport rather than two - or at least one major international airport and one smaller regional one, something akin to what BFS/BHD used to be perhaps.

But the reality is that that is not what we have, and it's difficult to imagine a realistic scenario where that could happen in the foreseeable future. I have no axe to grind about either airport, I live 20 mins from both BFS and BHD and am happy to use either (although I would probably have a slight preference for BFS due to more/better parking options, 24 hour and all-weather ops, etc).

Last year BFS got a bunch of new routes, this year they seem to be going to BHD. But as someone has pointed out, both airports are now in significant growth and hopefully there will be more routes to come for both. It's difficult to see yesterday's announcement as anything other than great news for Belfast :ok:

We still need APD dealt with though. I do have an axe to grind about that.

[mart901]

Its interesting to see the difference in child fares now since the removal of APD, its like half on some of U2's fares

[stab3.5up]

So back in the real world of nuts and bolts of airfield operations. Are BHD going to spend some infrastructure money on international flights parking stands etc. We currently have the walk across the walk way with the doors closed to block it off for the KLM punters or bussing them. EI international flights bussed and no doubt BRU flights bussed to international arrivals. Surely they need to start spending money and serious amounts on the airport. Ok rant over thank you and good bye

[mart901]

Also in addition to your post madgav its worth having a look at the regional airports in the south and how they, ORK especially have suffered at the hands of DUB's expansion and motorway links. I can see the argument but I would say its quite likely a benefit having 2 airports fighting for routes, at its most simple level, if an airline doesn't get what it wants at one airport, it can go to the other. Yes that can have its disadvantages but airlines, in particular the low cost ones keep saying its all down to landing fees as to where they fly. We should celebrate the growth in both our Belfast airports, I live closer to BHD but often use BFS as its cheaper with EZY much of the time, I'm happy to use either and I believe the competition keeps fares down. I was talking to someone recently who said it was great news EI were starting ALC because the fares have crept up such a lot and great to have a quality airline on the route and being able to fly from his doorstep.....would save the trek to DUB. We criticize the bucket and spade market but if that's what the punter wants then lets have it. So glad to have BRU though, really good on so many levels.

[madgav]

Hi mart,

Yes I agree it's probable that without the competition between the two airports, fares would be higher. The counter-argument to that was that higher fares could make routes more sustainable and we wouldn't have so many routes being chopped & changed or moved around. Airport would be more profitable and pax numbers would exceed the critical mass necessary to make terminal improvements and better road/rail links viable etc etc. And in turn this would encourage more pax to use the airport. All theoretical of course.
Fair point about LCC though (potential for higher airport fees actually restricting LCC presence and/or the number of routes flown).
Old discussion that has been done to death of course and doesn't change what is happening in the real world :)

It's interesting reading the ORK and SNN threads, both smaller than either Belfast airport (pax wise) and apparently having some issues obtaining and sustaining new routes. Great to see some real successes recently at ORK, let's hope we can continue to have similar success up here :ok:

I had another look at the government white paper mentioned in an earlier post. Hard to believe when it was written in 2003 we only had one scheduled international route (AMS with EZY). Shame that the rapid growth experienced very shortly after that was damaged by the recession. But it's easy to forget how far we have come and it's great to see both Belfast airports reporting very substantial passenger growth in recent months as well as continuing route development :ok:

[mart901]

And have a week read of this;

Hopes high Germany route will follow Brussels flights from Belfast City Airport - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/hopes-high-germany-route-will-follow-brussels-flights-from-belfast-city-airport-34122987.html)

[madgav]

It's one of those ones that has to happen sooner or later isn't it. The lack of any German routes at all is a particularly big hole in Belfast's route network. FRA or MUC perhaps? Would be nice to eventually have both. I know, I'm greedy.

Lowish loads for Vueling mentioned in that report (60%) but IIRC they have achieved this in their first season despite EZY loads on BCN having been pretty much unaffected.

Seems like BHD really are proactively trying to develop their route network though :ok:

[mart901]

Bit of an unknown quantity as of yet but 2016 schedule in place. There is demand, in the holiday period anyway.

[BFS101]

Report in the Belfast Telegraph today debating NI Airport consolidation...


Why a merger of Belfast's airports remains unlikely - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/opinion/john-simpson/why-a-merger-of-belfasts-airports-remains-unlikely-34122983.html)

[SecondDog]

Report in the Belfast Telegraph today debating NI Airport consolidation...


Why a merger of Belfast's airports remains unlikely - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/opinion/john-simpson/why-a-merger-of-belfasts-airports-remains-unlikely-34122983.html)

Terrible article with references to reports that were contradicted by industry experts. Still, BT hardly a world beater nowadays, so not unexpected.

[madgav]

Terrible article with references to reports that were contradicted by industry experts. Still, BT hardly a world beater nowadays, so not unexpected.

:ok: I was about to post something but to be honest I couldn't be bothered ranting about all the bits I disagreed with. Best ignored.

[CCR]

Tis almost the end of the summer schedule but the load on the Vueling flight to Barcelona today was appalling. It was like a private jet service with no more than 30 aboard an A320!

[flying officer kite]

Vueling has scraped by this summer with minimal advertising of the route, but more what's more strange is that when recent local radio channels ran competitions to win free Vueling flights, they were out of Dublin. The loads were pretty good in the middle of the summer though.

[mart901]

There has however been a lot of billboard advertising around Belfast, or at least there was earlier in the year. They are now sitting cheaper than U2 on a lot of 2016 summer dates, hopefully that will pay off.

[OneBellEnd]

The old guy writing the Belfast mergers article above has long since had a one-sided view on these matters. He has written for many years as a columnist for the BT but has also long-term held a position as a director of the PR company which represented British Midland in NI for years, and his view on the subject of what might benefit the air service sector in the north seldom extends outside lets only concern ourselves about access to Heathrow, which nowadays translates to keeping everything as it is and supporting the ongoing independence and development of city airport.

What is interesting is that he saw or was guided to the need to write an article like this.

No one is openly talking about putting the Belfast airports into a common group IMO. However the financial facts speak for themselves in his own article. There are two sets of massive operating and capital costs in running the two airports in Belfast and a free run for Dublin Government backed Dublin Airport to spend their public money trailing as much value out of the aviation sector as they can manage.

Perhaps the light bulb is finally flickering on in some parts of the establishment around Belfast that this situation is really not able to be sustained going forward???? And so - hey presto - the 'facts' needed to be set out in print, in case anyone would be contemplating looking at shifting the goalposts and doing things a little different here with a view to actually stalling the Dublin juggernaut.

Just sayin - maybe...???

Anyways. Don't believe everything you read, especially in the "Belfast" Telegraph which is owned and controlled and lifts much of its editorial input directly from its headquarters in.........Dublin!! :E:E

[Una Due Tfc]

The Belfast Telegraph is a Northern Irish paper.

Owned by Independent News and Media in Dublin no?

[El Bunto]

and a free run for Dublin Government backed Dublin Airport to spend their public money trailing as much value out of the aviation sector as they can manage.

DAA Plc:

Funding
The Group is funded through a combination of
its own resources and borrowings, receiving no
income or support from the State.

Hard as it is to accept, Dublin Airport is a commercial venture.

[CCR]

To try to compare Belfast with Dublin is ridiculous. It is not in the same league.
It would be more useful being realistic and compare Belfast`s airports with other similar sized airports (pax wise) in Cork or Shannon. Indeed Cork and Shannon airports are more modern and far superior than either Belfast airport.

[madgav]

Not exactly.

SNN = 1.6m pax pa
ORK = 2.1m pax pa

Total BFS+BHD now heading towards 7m. Belfast is a very substantial market nearly a third the size of DUB and deserves more than the scraps from their table. We are still underserved in many areas with similar sized airports on the UK mainland having significantly more routes. Question is how would we be most competitive . Telegraph article didn't address that at all but seemed more interested in telling us how good DUB is and that it is somehow "just down the road". Rivalling LHR or AMS for connections? Seriously? MAN maybe, but not even sure about that.
I apologise for the rant. This thread is about BHD.

[madgav]

Well Vueling were sufficiently happy with the route's performance to return next year. One poor load at the very end of the season doesn't tell us much. Average loads were reported to be around 60% which for a relatively unknown brand in a market dominated by EZY for quite a few years (and with EZY's loads pretty much unaffected) maybe isn't too bad. Hope they do well next year :ok:

[West Brit]

Belfast's airports 7 million without FR!!

[mathers_wales_uk]

Have faith in Vueling it is a new brand to the area and passenger numbers will increase. If Belfast City Airport managers work well with Vueling then a good relationship could be had.

Look at Cardiff Vueling have been here for several years and all 4 routes were over 90% this Summer.

Steady growth has been seen too and the airport have worked well with the airline so that local passengers become aware of the Vueling brand.

[SecondDog]

DAA Plc:

Funding
The Group is funded through a combination of
its own resources and borrowings, receiving no
income or support from the State.

Hard as it is to accept, Dublin Airport is a commercial venture.

No harm to anyone but if you believe that then you'll be waiting for Pink Pig Airways to start a route out of there. The above statement on funding has enough wiggle room to be completely true yet not representative of the real situation.

Before we all start hating though, I happen to think fair play to the Free State, they make our (Jobs for the) Boyos up here in (or out?) of Stormont look like complete plonkers in terms of vision and planning. DUB is a beautiful airport and we can only hope to take a wee bit of market share back again.

[Cozy F]

BA Heathrow diverted on emergency to BFS.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

No harm to anyone but if you believe that then you'll be waiting for Pink Pig Airways to start a route out of there. The above statement on funding has enough wiggle room to be completely true yet not representative of the real situation.

Before we all start hating though, I happen to think fair play to the Free State, they make our (Jobs for the) Boyos up here in (or out?) of Stormont look like complete plonkers in terms of vision and planning. DUB is a beautiful airport and we can only hope to take a wee bit of market share back again.

What exactly are you trying to imply, the simple fact remains DUB has no political influence and if anything the only political influence it receives is stopping it for the benefit of another airport on the West coast but that seem's to of stopped now.

I will agree about the last part!

[BFS watcher]

No political influence in DAA, are you having a laugh......look who the shareholder is! At least they use that influence for the best advantage of the Free State. Next you will be telling me that Bertie had a bank account and that the Fine Faile tent that the Galway races was a mirage.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

No political influence in DAA, are you having a laugh......look who the shareholder is! At least they use that influence for the best advantage of the Free State. Next you will be telling me that Bertie had a bank account and that the Fine Faile tent that the Galway races was a mirage.

Tell me something that they have an influence on? They were also a shareholder in Aer Lingus and the CEO told them where to go many times over the last number of years.....had no power to influence anything and as they are not the funding tap for the daa they have no power either.

BFS is failing miserably in competitiveness and ability to attract new carriers, look here at BHD, KLM. Bussels and Vueling all arrived so if anything DUB is not the problem but BFS as the city is doing a good job recently.

[mart901]

I wouldn't agree that BFS is struggling so much, they have attracted wizz and a big increase in easyJet albeit mainly domestic. They've had a really strong summer, virgin, TCX transatlantic. Some new carriers would be good but I don't think they are anywhere near failing miserably.

[BFS watcher]

Looking at the stats I reckon Vueling load factor for the summer was around the 44% mark, Easyjet at BFS 94%......that won't last long at that level

[BFS watcher]

Shareholder of DAA is the Free State Government and you are telling me they have no influence on DAA! Now Bertie I'm sure you had a bank account somewhere?

[mart901]

BFSwatcher

I can see EZY are doing well to BCN by the fares. I've just booked some flights one way BCN-BHD with SN, 112 euro in July including luggage and free seat selection. The alternatives;

EZY wrong date, 304 euro excluding luggage etc (don't fly on day I needed)

VY 179 euro excluding everything

BA 171 euro including luggage, inflight catering.

Even flying back from REU with LS or charter was over 300 euro without luggage.

[Cozy F]

British Airways flight diverted to Belfast International Airport after 'technical issue' (http://email.mammoth.tv/t/r-l-ztiiity-dtjllhjktk-ji/)


Forgive my ignorance, but why did BA not just turn around and land back in the city airport??

[keep_er_lit]

British Airways flight diverted to Belfast International Airport after 'technical issue' (http://email.mammoth.tv/t/r-l-ztiiity-dtjllhjktk-ji/)


Forgive my ignorance, but why did BA not just turn around and land back in the city airport??


I would say the fact that The runway at BFS is much longer than that at BHD made the pilots decision to land at BFS. On one engine, to make an approach to a short runway and run the risk of landing deep and having to go around would create a high workload for the crew. In an emergency Situation like this it's more straight forward to land on a nice long runway. I feel this is the main reason but there are no doubt other factors Aswell

[ILS25]

I saw a load of emergency vehicles heading in the direction of the City airport last night and hoped it wasn't aircraft related.

I wonder was the pilot thinking about landing back at the city and then changed his mind and went to Aldergrove? Or maybe the emergency crews I saw weren't heading for the airport at all and were going elsewhere?

[KNT544]

BA departed and following a technical issue diverted and landed at BFS.

[stab3.5up]

How did the simulator visit go? Was it a PR thing or is there news to follow does anyone know!

[Hangar6]

Pulled for S16 no replacement route code share BHDLHR
Any idea what plan is?

[stab3.5up]

Are the LHR not all now EI code share BA flt numbers and BA now EI flt numbers if you catch my drift. Hence the extra sun routes then or are they now in doubt.

[sealink]

Just read in local press that EI are to drop BHD LGW from March. So you are the only operator of a route from your base and you drop it? Is this how they can then provide the extra sunshine flights with this spare a/c? I suppose this opens up the possibility of a "new" carrier on this route. BA??

[El Bunto]

If you browse for Belfast -> Heathrow flights on ba.com you are presented with the six BA own-metal flights plus the three Aer Lingus flights under BA codes.

However on aerlingus.com ( once it loads ) you are only shown their three flights...

Joined-up thinking, eh.

City airport press office are still promising nine daily Heathrow flights for Summer 2016. Suggests to me that BA will take-over all Heathrow frequencies and Aer Lingus will shift to leisure routes.

[stab3.5up]

Does that include the BA LCY flights?

[True Blue]

BA will reduce the Lhr schedule when it suits them and Bhd will have no say in it. There is no way 9 flights will be maintained.

TB

[stab3.5up]

6 to Lhr and 3 to LCY each day is 9 plus EI. We will just have to wait and see as a lot of changes coming over the winter. Will klm up there flights. SÑ Brussels to BRU etc etc

[PPRuNeUser0176]

BA will reduce the Lhr schedule when it suits them and Bhd will have no say in it. There is no way 9 flights will be maintained.

TB

Like all carriers can however I think BHD is secure at it's current freq for the foreseeable future. Remember huge volumes of connecting traffic use LHR because there is no other option in NI so BA will be mindful of limiting this as if they do they could be landed with a big surprise if one EY/EK were to start BFS along with current operations ex DUB taking passengers.

[cuthere]

"BA will reduce the LHR schedule when it suits them". True Bleu, what do you base this cast iron assumption on? From your postings it's a LGW/BFS thing you have on the go. Where does the BA expertise come from? Genuine question.

As an aside. In the same way the plural of cat is cats and not cat's, the plural of any aircraft type is 320s, 737s and not something that requires an apostrophe. Also, their and there are very different things.

Don't demean what you're trying to say (Victoria/airport/66)

[EI-BUD]

Cuthere,

I think TrueBlue raises a valid discussion point here. I could frame that slightly differently, BHD LHR has a huge volume of passengers but IAG may seek to streamline the operation and make better use of the slots. The loads compared to someother routes can be lower, there are 9-10 flights a day and monthly passengers in the region of 60k in summer, lower in Winter. Hence, they could easily remove 1 or 2 daily rotations and still have significant. I understand the implications of yield management etc.

Equally the rumours on here or a BA arrival onto LCY may indicate that BA are missing some business partners and an expansion of capacity on this route may mean further competition for London traffic, adding weight to the LHR cut back debate.

It could be argued that Aer Lingus does not add a pint of difference, perhaps only on price on the route, that BA with their focus on connectivity, could serve th is route on their own. Afterall when IAG came to life, IB excited LHR BCN...


However, if the same happened for EI on LHR BHD, you could question the merits of a base for seasonal ops....Hopefully, that is not going to be the case...

Bottom line for me is that is I'd be surprised if IAG do not not look for efficiencies on the route now to some extent to release some slots.

[True Blue]

" True Bleu, what do you base this cast iron assumption on? From your postings it's a LGW/BFS thing you have on the go. Where does the BA expertise come from? Genuine question. "

Cuthere, thank you for taking such an interest in so many of the posts I make. Although it is True Blue!

I have no inside knowledge of BA or their intentions, but I do have this:
1. Plenty of life experience. You will eventually discover that this is very valuable and helps you see through all the spin that governments and businesses like to bombard us with. Pity so many of the general public believe it all.
2. My qualifications in and knowledge of economics
3. My knowledge in and personal experience of capitalism.

Let me give you two examples. The expansion a few years back at Ldy when about 30 families were forced out of their homes and about £20m of tax-payers money spent on a runway expansion. It matters not whether that money came from North or South, it was still our money, tax-payers. It was supposed to herald the start of expansion at Ldy, we were all told in many press releases. What has happened since?

Second example, how many times since EI came to N Ireland have we read press releases that they were looking to increase flights to Lhr. What happened? Or that the reason they were moving from Bfs to Bhd was to get access to the higher yields down there. Do you think it was a roaring success?

I could go on, but if you believe that BA will not take the opportunity now to see how few rotations per day they can get away with to Bhd, well that it up to you. And if they believe that they could make more money on the slots at Lhr, they would drop Belfast like a stone, because that is how capitalism works in 2015, it is all about profit and little else. Something I don't fully agree with.

On your final point, like me make my position very clear to you. Yes I believe that a country the size of NI with three airports is complete madness. You tell us how successful Ldy is? There was a link on this thread recently, that some ridiculed, to a story about the profitability of Bfs and Bhd. Both are barely making a profit. How long can that continue? You have in the past commented on the toilets at Bfs, where do they get the money from to improve if the profits are not there? I look forward to hearing what your solution would be to two airports fighting over the same traffic and cutting fees to the bone to try and secure the business. How sustainable is that? Remember that without a decent profit, there is nothing.

TB

[panpanpanpan]

True Blue There was a link on this thread recently, that some ridiculed, to a story about the profitability of Bfs and Bhd. Both are barely making a profit. How long can that continue? It will continue until one of the airports is no longer sustainable as a business. Trying to reverse engineer an aviation policy is never going to work, the time to form a one airport model for NI should have been taken years ago.

BTW, with your qualification and experience in economics, have a look at the last Harbour accounts. Some very creative accounting going on to minimise tax liability, doesn't mean there is no profit being made, simply that it is being creamed off before it gets onto the wrong part of the balance sheet.:E

[speedrestriction]

BFS vs BHD is a nonsense. Neither airport has the infrastructure to absorb the traffic of the other. The setup in NI is not that unusual - there are plenty of other cities around Europe served by multiple airports, some of which have a lower population than the greater Belfast area. I fully expect that in twenty years time the Belfast area will continue to be served by the two airports (hopefully with some investment during the interim).

[SecondDog]

BFS vs BHD is a nonsense. Neither airport has the infrastructure to absorb the traffic of the other. The setup in NI is not that unusual - there are plenty of other cities around Europe served by multiple airports, some of which have a lower population than the greater Belfast area. I fully expect that in twenty years time the Belfast area will continue to be served by the two airports (hopefully with some investment during the interim).

You mean cities in Europe, the great big land mass with 500m people. Please explain how the situation compares to N.I. with the water dividing it from everywhere other than a cheaper country that pinches 800000 pax per year not to mention its start on air freight business. No, I think the 2 airports are not sustainable and hope we can sort it out sooner rather than later

[virginblue]

If BACF goes on the LCY route, one has to ownder if BE's LCY operation will loose its critical mass with just ABZ and EDI remaining as reasonably busy routes.

[El Bunto]

Summer versus winter snapshot of scheduled passengers movements at the two Belfast airports. Actual flights only, excluding code-shares. A 'route' is any city-pair regardless of operator.

Wednesday 20th May 2015
Belfast International: 38 departing, 36 arriving = 74 on 23 routes
Belfast City: 66 departing, 63 arriving = 129 on 22 routes

Wednesday 18th November 2015
Belfast International: 31 departing 32 arriving = 63 on 12 routes
Belfast City: 63 departing, 62 arriving = 125 on 17 routes


Of course this doesn't consider the larger size of aircraft at International, nor the length of routes, but interesting to see such a large and consistent difference in frequencies. City should really be advertising themselves on the basis of 'twice as many flights as the "major" airport'...

[SecondDog]

Summer versus winter snapshot of scheduled passengers movements at the two Belfast airports. Actual flights only, excluding code-shares.

Wednesday 20th May 2015
Belfast International: 38 departing, 36 arriving = 74
Belfast City: 66 departing, 63 arriving = 129

Wednesday 18th November 2015
Belfast International: 31 departing 32 arriving = 63
Belfast City: 63 departing, 62 arriving = 125


Of course this doesn't consider the larger size of aircraft at International, nor the length of routes, but interesting to see such a large and consistent difference in frequencies. City should really be advertising themselves on the basis of 'twice as many flights as the "major" airport'...

Selective stats can be misleading. You have chosen 2 Wednesdays outside peak season. But sure why let the whole picture get in the way of a good stat, it's not like that happens much in the world today.... 😴

[GAZMO]

Key stat is that both airports are increasing their numbers!! Well done


8 X Citywing flights = 1 EZY flight approx.??
2 X Flybe flights = 1 EZY flight approx.??

[stab3.5up]

Any update on the LGW replacement carrier if indeed there is one.

[GAZMO]

Like most of us still waiting
Going by rumours either EZY or FR!!!
If starting late March I would expect announcement soon

[BFS BHD]

Does the LGW slots have to be from BHD? Or is it any Belfast Airport (BFS & BHD)?

[GAZMO]

I think is just says Belfast therefore could be BHD or BFS

[BFS BHD]

Ahh! Cheers. :)

[shoe shine]

Seems that FR have got the slots. BA and the team were in DUB yesterday selling the new strategic plan for city. LGW obviously, but STN also being considered and a very significant incentive on offer for any German routes. I thought Germany was beyond the range of the BHD runway?

[El Bunto]

Selective stats can be misleading. You have chosen 2 Wednesdays outside peak season.Err yes, but that's not the point; it was comparative. Both airports compared on the lousiest day of the week, one in the Summer timetable and one in the Winter. That gives you the worst-case scenarios and the City is still twice as busy.

Give me another date and I'll do the stats. I'll even try to calculate available seats :)

[BFS watcher]

BHD making the usual promises that the runway extension is only months away to FR. Their mates in the DUP giving all the support they can. Shocking! FR will struggle to operate from City, they had a mare of a time last time. Curfew, runway length, fog, winds etc etc etc. Doubt O'Leary will be fooled again. But you never know could be Tourism Irelands last present to their retiring Chairman. Funny old place Northern Ireland!

[madgav]

BHD making the usual promises that the runway extension is only months away to FR. Their mates in the DUP giving all the support they can. Shocking! FR will struggle to operate from City, they had a mare of a time last time. Curfew, runway length, fog, winds etc etc etc. Doubt O'Leary will be fooled again. But you never know could be Tourism Irelands last present to their retiring Chairman. Funny old place Northern Ireland!

Have to agree, as much as I'm happy to use either airport I'd rather see them at BFS. But then I was hoping for (eventually) a decent set of new/interesting routes from them, not just LGW and maybe STN.
All of the issues listed above are real and haven't changed since they last served BHD....

[canberra97]

Owenc

What a ridiculous statement that no cares what airline they fly on, I am sure most passengers that fly BA for example care what airline there on and a lot of them including myself who are BA Executive members care and probably wouldn't set foot on a Ryanair aircraft.

For someone so young you do have a consistent attitude towards generalisation of situations.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

@owenc, are you really a 19 year old experienced business traveller who has spent 3K of his own money on business travel? How does someone straight from school manage that without inheriting? Genuine question. Perhaps take the playground banter to PM, entertaining as it undoubtedly is :)

And if they believe that they could make more money on the slots at Lhr, they would drop Belfast like a stone, because that is how capitalism works in 2015, it is all about profit and little else. Something I don't fully agree with.Good point, however they do need the feed and if one looks at routes where they have a very close relationship with a oneworld parnter, BA are still flying. Iberia and BA both serve MAD, Iberia with A340s and now Finnair serve Helsinki with heavies too. Key point is that BA seem to have a strategy of not walking away but sharing the spoils. Indeed in terms of UK connectivity, they've just announced INV and LBA is still there. The proportion of long/short haul in this business model is a complex one and slightly fluid. Keeping the frequent fliers down the pointy end happy with their prefered carrier may be the driver here. Aer Lingus look like they'll be in T2 at LHR for the medium term at least so not the best connecting option.

[carsonEGAD]

Would be interesting to see if FR choose BHD over BFS again, didn't they do rather well last time at BHD?
Personally I'd like to see them at BHD due to the proximity to my home but I can't help but feel if they add many routes and base a few aircraft, could the airport cope in terms of apron space, especially night stops as I remember reading somewhere that the apron outside the old terminal is being utilized now. (correct me if it's a load of nonsense:O)

How is it a funny place? Most people simply don't care what airline they travel on. Give over would you! You're actually making massive generalisations right now!Owenc, it seems like you're making "massive generalisations" as you state most people don't care what airline they travel on, do you have any facts or statistics backing up your statement?

[benjyyy]

Let's stay on topic here and stop the petty squabbling.

[EI-BUD]

So assuming Ryanair are taking on Belfast Gatwick route, they get say 2 or 3 daily slots, let's assume the same timings as the current AerLingus program. This would surely necessitate other flights on other routes or some switching around among the slots they own. Otherwise, the aircraft utilisation would be very poor. Let's also consider they hold seasonal slots at Gatwick used for Seville and Kaunas, which are oddly placed, these could be used on the Belfast route. FR would not be content with #2 on the route between Belfast and Gatwick.

The last time FR arrived at BHD they came to BHD and concluded discussions very quickly, MOL was highly complementary of BHD on that occasion and how quickly they did a deal. Given Bhd staff went to Dublin, perhaps BFS management may be presented with, ' we are going to bring x, miss out at your peril', I think it is quite different this time round. Last time BFS were bringing Aer Lingus base at the same time...

[BFS watcher]

I suspect BHD management desperate to get FR as they have just re financed and I bet that the loss of EI LGW will leave a huge hole in the accounts if they are not replaced. Suspect BFS management are sitting watching this carefully as the new guy seems to know what he is doing and the new shareholders seem to allow the management to manage unlike the Spanish, I bet the price for FR is really keen and someone will end up paying the price. We should be hearing soon as the services will start from the summer schedule. Then watch this space as FR pile capacity in here, the real losers could be Flybe

[shoe shine]

FR will make the announcement this week, Wednesday I believe, and it seems like its going to be city.

[cessnarocket]

Just where is the official announcement?

[elle may clampit]

Lots of talk, lots of speculation and rumour as you would expect on this forum but until I see the press release, I won't believe any of it.

[sarcon]

What's attracting airlines to the city are the incentive packages being offered. £525k in the case of KLM, for a route that was already being operated from BFS. What's attracting FR, if that is where they end up, I don't know, or perhaps the INI, DUP, TI have come up with a support package for Mr A again.

[SecondDog]

What's attracting airlines to the city are the incentive packages being offered. £525k in the case of KLM, for a route that was already being operated from BFS. What's attracting FR, if that is where they end up, I don't know, or perhaps the INI, DUP, TI have come up with a support package for Mr A again.

I suppose it helps when the CEO of the airport is also the chairperson of Tourism Ireland, who can put forward support for such routes.

Typical DUP, putting their mate in to suit themselves in Holywood (Despite the fact that it is hugely benfecial to the RoI as a neighbouring nation.)

Super stuff.

[El Bunto]

That's incredibly disappointing! I don't understand what is attracting airlines to Belfast city? It is such a small airport and it is really quite far for some people in Northern Ireland.1. Proximity to the province's financial and political centre.
2. Covenience for the population of south Antrim and Down, comprising > 50% of the population.
3. Lack of any apparent marketing effort, or sense of direction, at International.
4. A demographic that prefers frequency of business-orientated flights over low-cost ( and hence don't traipse down to Dublin ).
5. Various rumours about very aggressive and well-backed marketing at City ( see above ).


For the west and north of the province, Ryanair operate to Stansted from Derry. Makes sense to me that they'd want to put another London pipleline over at the populous and, yes, prosperous east coast.

[cessnarocket]

I heard today flybe is in final nogations with bfs for a move 14 miles up the road. Wonder has this anything to do with FR

[ILS25]

Heard from a good source about the flybe move too.

[GAZMO]

Just like a merry go round!!

[EGAC is Better]

Heard from a good source about the flybe move too.

That would be a really sensible move.....so sensible in fact that it could possibly kill Flybe in Belfast if true. Maybe it is just posturing because BHD management AGAIN seem to be welcoming with open arms the heap of steaming poo that is Ryanair; to the potential cost of current business partners it must be added.

BE currently operate Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Birmingham from City; all of which are served by EZY from BFS. Have I missed any?

I hate flying on those noisey (inside) Dash-8's and have only used them in the past to avoid driving to BFS. If I had to travel to BFS to fly to any of the above destinations, I'd be climbing the steps onto a orange Airbus and not a purple "cardboard box with wings."

That last paragraph is somewhat tongue in cheek but also reflect's a lot of my non-aviation savy friends opinion's on turboprops.

A full quota of based Embraer's could however put the cat amongst the pigeons at BFS....

[eastern wiseguy]

I recall that Flybe got so far as to picking out space in the check in area......HOWEVER this was at least six years ago and subsequently they failed to move.



Groundhog Day.

[panpanpanpan]

I will also count myself as amazed if Ryanair arrive back at Harbour. FlyBe going head to head with Easy at Aldergrove is only going to have one winner and I don't think you need to be a genius to work that one out! Big shiny jet versus constantly broken clockwork plane, give it a few months till passengers work it out themselves and its not going to end well.:uhoh:

I would be very sceptical in thinking Mr A has any massive pull with any airline, Ryanair or otherwise. Ryanair in particular are very shrewd operators and will go where the deal is right for them and pull out when it isn't, as Harbour well know!

It will be interesting to see how this develops, a LGW route isnt really going to harm anyone at Harbour, will Ryanair be content with one route though or will they step on a few toes as time goes on?:hmm:

[Flightrider]

Flybe did this once before when they took the huff with BHD management, and split their services between BHD and BFS. [I think it was when easyJet briefly operated from BHD, but I may be wrong and happy to stand corrected.] I can't see it working for them this time any better than it did last time.

Carry on replicating old ideas at this rate and they'll be flying Blackpool-Isle of Man-Belfast with a Shorts 360 again soon.

[panpanpanpan]

Flightrider, was that not a response from FlyBe to get rid of Air Belfast? I think it was the Stansted route that moved, once Air Belfast breathed their last then Flybe returned to Harbour.

The Easy move was when they had a spat with the last management at Aldergrove and the Luton moved for a season but returned when they got the deal they wanted. I believe they said at the time that the Luton wasn't making any profit at Harbour but I remember being told it was practically full every sector. Perhaps a bit of bluff and double bluff.:confused:

[GAZMO]

Flightrider cannot remember flybe at BFS but will stand corrected if anyone else knows best

[eastern wiseguy]

Panpanwhatever has it absolutely correct. It was a direct response to Air Belfast. That makes my estimate of six years ago well out. They packed up in 1999.

[sealink]

If FR did land back at BHD with 1 or more routes id say the airport would struggle unless there was serious expansion. I'm Sure they could create additional stands easily but the main terminal is bursting at peak times.
the check in hall has limited space
security search is tight for space as it is
the departure area has hardly enough seating as it is
FR flights bring big paxs numbers hence the attraction as these paxs will spend in the airport.
for sure i will fly with them whichever airport they fly from, if indeed they do return to Belfast. Im hoping for European flights. Fingers crossed, no more driving to Dublin to get to my usual destination currently not served directly from BHD or BFS.

[EI-BUD]

Flybe negotiating with BFS is just another bargaining chip for dealing with BHD. BE would not work on comparable routes to easyJet ex BFS. Is FR considering major network ex BHD to rival BE, unlikely. FR coming into LGW or STN will impact BE least or any carrier on the London route. Me thinks this is unrelated.

Ryanair prefer BFS for operational reasons, earlier starts, longer days, higher aircraft utilisation, hence lower costs. FR do not care whether bhd is in the city or closer to the population etc. Price price price, cost, cost, cost... That's their game.

In relation to tourism Ireland, they could I guess support or subsidise new routes to new destinations like Germany etc. But unlikely to be the case for Gatwick etc.

[West Brit]

What if FR have attained a couple of slots at LGW, and they 'have' to use at least one at a Belfast airport. I don't think BFS is going to encourage a LGW/BFS operation for obvious reasons. So they start a one flight per day DUB/LGW/BHd for 3 years and withdraw with a golden slot to use elsewhere!!!
I cannot see BE operating their full program at BFS, maybe they could base a couple of aircraft at BFS to utilise their aircraft for a longer program each day. The last flight out of LCY to GLA is 20.30 45 mins after BHD. 45 mins later is very good for business day trips, give them another edge over BA.

[panpanpanpan]

Slight thread drift here, just curious if anyone has heard anything. Some time ago I was chatting to a controller from Harbour and he mentioned they were being contracted out, has this been done yet? Who provides air traffic at Harbour now?

[ILS25]

Still NATS as far as I'm aware

[stab3.5up]

So what is the big reveal then Amy takers?

[stab3.5up]

Any takers even

[BFS BHD]

Explain....

[stab3.5up]

As in the aledged big announcement on Wednesday

[BFS BHD]

Looks like there is no announcement for any Belfast Airport today.... :rolleyes:

[owenc]

Don't understand why people make these things up, it's not like it's going to make it actually happen.

[BFS watcher]

Flybe senior management seen at both BHD and BFS today. So they are talking to both. BFS must have put some deal on the table to tempt them. Looks like things are getting very interesting

[Itchin McCrevis]

What? - airlines playing one airport off against another in order to secure a cheaper deal..!! what is the world coming to - they will be offering volume growth next..!!

[West Brit]

Flybe spotted at both airports.
So they flew into Bhd got a taxis up to Bfs and then back to Bhd for flight home. They could have had a shorter day if they used an orange piece of metal. All this probably to agree a fee for late night diversions!!

[BFS BHD]

Seems Stobart Air has chose Belfast City for its Carlisle to Belfast route that is being funded by Department of Transport.
No start date but guessing it will begin in Spring 2016.
No surpise they chose BHD with them using Aer Lingus aircraft.

[BHD2BFS]

Has any one heard anything about EI taking the shuttle service over from BA

it would make sense, allows slots to be freed up and save having to night stop and aircraft and crew away from heathrow

[ILS25]

Airline boss on long-haul mission to help Flybe take off to new heights from its busy base at Belfast City Airport - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/big-interview/airline-boss-on-longhaul-mission-to-help-flybe-take-off-to-new-heights-from-its-busy-base-at-belfast-city-airport-34287182.html)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Has any one heard anything about EI taking the shuttle service over from BA
True but both BA and Iberia serve Madrid, Helsinki with Finnair etc. There was a huge expectation BA would gift the ex BMI operations at BHD and DUB to Aer Lingus, did not happen. And no bad thing, choice is a good thing even if they're not actually competing. This one might be wishful thinking, especially given the A319s are leaving Aer Lingus, perhaps BA are best placed to maintain frequency?

[SecondDog]

True but both BA and Iberia serve Madrid, Helsinki with Finnair etc. There was a huge expectation BA would gift the ex BMI operations at BHD and DUB to Aer Lingus, did not happen. And no bad thing, choice is a good thing even if they're not actually competing. This one might be wishful thinking, especially given the A319s are leaving Aer Lingus, perhaps BA are best placed to maintain frequency?

Surely EI are just on the long kiss goodnight as far as Belfast goes? I thought the idea for the northern base was to employ folk on different contracts than down below, surely that can't be going well?

[West Brit]

According to the latest stats, BHD is currently sitting at 40,000 aircraft movements p.a. leaving 8000 p.a. before they hit their cap. 8000 aircraft movements amounts to around 11 arrivals and departures each day. According to the article above BE are adding more flights to popular destinations so say 3 arrivals per day extra. So FR if they open a base at BHD will only have 11 rotations per day maximum. I hope BHD have communicated this to FR during this negotiation process?

[panpanpanpan]

I would very much doubt if the movement cap would be enforced even if the amount of flights increased. Was the movement cap part of the seats for sale package? :confused: Whatever has happened that anyway, I thought the decision was due by now, or is it just our useless and inept politicians not being able to get off the gravy train for long enough to actually make a call?:mad:

I still don't think the harp will be flying over East Belfast again, especially if MOL is talking expansion and multiple routes. The interesting part will be whether there is a new market grown or will it simply be trying to get a slice of what already exists.:hmm:

[El Bunto]

I think the airport needs a new term instead of "curfew". Seems that it's not applicable to private jets, particularly if the BBC Sports Personality reception drifts on towards 23:00.

"Exceptional circumstances only".

[West Brit]

I think the airport needs a new term instead of "curfew". Seems that it's not applicable to private jets, particularly if the BBC Sports Personality reception drifts on towards 23:00.

"Exceptional circumstances only".

There is a 24 hour facility at BFS, I don't think that 10 mins extra travel time at that time of day, is a reason to amend the curfew.

[True Blue]

Funny how the usually very active press office at Bhd haven't been on the radio/TV etc on this.

Christmas 'ruined' for Belfast airport staff hit by payment errors - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/christmas-ruined-for-belfast-airport-staff-hit-by-payment-errors-34300127.html)

[panpanpanpan]

True Blue, in fairness I don't think the blame for this lies with the airport as such. Looks like Mitie are a separate company and just subcontracted to do security. I would guess Harbour management don't give a rats about subcontractors so long as the job is done.:=

Now if management hadn't received their bonus this year, that would be worth a Nolan show all on its own!:}

[True Blue]

Let me explain. They are quick to jump for all good news. Do I expect them to be on the radio about this? No.


But what I do expect is that Bhd, who have engaged Mitie as a sub-contractor, ensure Mitie sort this asap. Three months to sort out pay, no excuse for me. These events happen because someone doesn't take ownership of an event and sort it properly at the time. You see, if Mitie are unable to sort out a payroll issue after 3 months, how do we view their ability to provide security at Bhd? That is why Bhd should have ensured this event never got this far, in my opinion.