How often do you practice emergencies?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Inspired by the EFATO thread, a general question, with some sub-parts!

How often do you as a PPL/CPL/little-flying-machine-pilot practice emergencies. For example...

- PFL
- Stall recovery in cruise
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach
- Cable break
- Fire
- EFATO
- Inadvertent flight into IMC?
- Anything else?

And which emergencies do you practice?


I'll kick-off:

- PFL about once per month
- Range of stalls every 1-2 months (more if I'm teaching them)
- Don't fly gliders, so don't do cable breaks
- Fire drills every couple of months
- EFATO from a PFL co-around maybe every third month, EFATO from the runway maybe twice per year (again, more if I'm teaching them).
- Flapless approach every 2-3 months

G

[Advs]

I work IFR charter on PA31 and might do fire on line check and EFATO both line check and IF renewal. Can't say we mess around with the rest really. :(

[Piltdown Man]

twive

That's a nice sounding number. Is is the shortened form for a number between two and five or is it three and a half?

PFL: I think about them, but not a lot. However, this was a subject we covered during our last sim. session.
Stalls - These are to be covered in our next session.
Cable Breaks: N/A
Fire: Considered mentally every day. Tested once a year.
EFATA: Considered and briefed every flight, even if just one word. Tested twice a year.
Inadvertent IMC: Every circling approach.
Anything else: Emergency stops, Go-arounds considered and briefed every flight. Handling of minor problems considered and sometimes discussed.
Other Emergencies: We work our way through all that can be imagined (either by instructor's or ourselves) over a period of a few years.

PM

[proudprivate]

If you don't teach these, I guess not very often :

I tend to do these only when getting checked out in a new airplane, when doing a check ride, or when doing a biannual. This gives an average of about once every 6-9 months for me.

- Engine Out (i.e. PFL or Feathering one)
- Stall recovery in cruise
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach
- Fire
- EFATO
+ Departure Stall
+ VMC demo
+ Vacuum Pump Failure (i.e. a partial panel)
+ GPS failure

[Ultra long hauler]

Good day,

Well, my instructor banged the lever to idle a few times, teaching me to try only 1 engine "re-start"; and to then concentrate on a suitable landing spot while flying the airplane at all time!

For fire it would be similar, albeit with power.

In my microlight we never practised stalls as we simply don't know the aircraft well enough.
In my new aircraft I'd love to give that a regular go.....

My old plane didn't have flaps so I guess the new one would fly a similar landing speed with 0 degrees flap. I will practise that in due time.

Brake failure I recently practised.....as my brake lever failed.

GPS failure, well we fly local flights without GPS anyway and for X-country I have 3 independant GPS's installed. Plus, we fly visual so I'd make my way home.

I have a double Pitot tube; but I guess I'd like to practise a landing without air speed indicator.

Anything else you could recommend for a Rotax 914 LSA with glass cockpit!??

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Mark1234]

Nowhere near enough :(

The only place I can claim the moral high ground is spin recoveries, but I do that for kicks..

[Genghis the Engineer]

In my microlight we never practised stalls as we simply don't know the aircraft well enough. :{ :{ :ugh:

Anything else you could recommend for a Rotax 914 LSA with glass cockpit!
Stuck open throttle?

G

[tmmorris]

- PFL - every couple of months, more if I remember, but rarely to the airfield i.e. all the way down. Must try harder.

- Stall recovery in cruise - twice a year? not very often
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach ditto, always when I do stall recovery in cruise
- Cable break N/A
- Fire - never, must get one of my passengers to surprise me
- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) - rarely
- Inadvertent flight into IMC? - never but I am IMC rated and fly regularly on instruments so a non-event. The real issue for me is decision making (when do I accept that I am not in VMC, what do I do) which is best practised in practice...
- Anything else?

Tim

[n5296s]

- PFL

Maybe once a month - it's what I do when I want to go flying and don't have anything in particular I want to do. Find an empty airport (Marina, KOAR, works great), pull the power a few miles out, aim to land on the numbers, then a couple more times from the pattern.

- Stall recovery in cruise

Non event in my plane. Do them every now and then anyway. SOP for any kind of checkout in the acro planes I fly.

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach

Also a non event. Did plenty of them during my CPL training and confirmed they're a non event.

- Cable break

Not sure how you'd actually practice for this.

- Fire

Ditto. Did plenty of emergency descents during CPL training. They're quite fun.

- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off)

You mean "impossible turns"? 'Cos otherwise it's just "land straight ahead" which isn't really that hard! I've been working on those lately, more out of curiosity to see what is really possible.

- Inadvertent flight into IMC?

How would you practice this? Do you mean recurrent instrument training? Of course with an IR I do this anyway.

- Anything else?

Spins - usually do one on the way back home in the Pitts. Good way to lose a bit of altitude.

Autorotations - most times when I fly the heli.

[RTN11]

In my microlight we never practised stalls as we simply don't know the aircraft well enough.

How do you propose to get to know the aircraft better if you do not fly at the lower speed ranges? The microlights I have flown have the most docile stall characteristics I've ever encountered, nothing to get worried about. If you're unsure then book some time with an instructor.

As an instructor, these emergencies are taught or demonstrated once a week at least, a lot of pilots do not practice on their own a lot though. A lot of the biannial flights I do are the only PFL that pilot will do in 2 years, no matter how much I ask them to practice more often.

I often teach students when returning from a nav to postition overhead the field and perform a PFL - subject to traffic obviously. There is no reason why a licence holder could not do this every other flight, keeping their judgement of the glide range sharp, and getting used to gliding it in in different wind conditions with the option of a go around if need be.

[ariel]

As well as everything already mentioned, how about elevator or aileron failure? (Or both together)

[Morris542]

PFL - Every 3/4 months probably, I practise the drills often when I get time in an aircraft before the flight, but I do need to fly them more often.
Stall recovery in cruise - If I'm carrying a passenger who wants be shown what a stall looks and feels like I'll demonstrate it (once or twice a month...)
Stall recovery from a simulated approach - Couple of times a year.
Cable break - N/A
Fire - I make sure I'm confident in doing all the drills.
EFATO - Every club check out
Inadvertent flight into IMC - I do need to book a flight with an instructor to get a bit more instrument time.


There is no reason why a licence holder could not do this every other flight, keeping their judgement of the glide range sharp, and getting used to gliding it in in different wind conditions with the option of a go around if need be.

Never thought about doing that (mainly because parachuting where I fly prevents many overhead joins). Will give that a go traffic permitting!

[riverrock83]

What about Flap failure or Flap control failure (so full flaps when you don't want them / no flaps when you want them). Obviously you need a long enough runway depending on the plane...
What about Clean stalls vs full flap stalls (or is that what you mean by stall recovery from a simulated approach?).
What about taking emergency avoiding action (fun to get a passenger to suddenly say "F16 approaching 12 o'clock") - should ensure that turning right 90deg at a v.high bank angle is instinctive (although I suspect it is more fun in the bulldog than a PA28).

Since I'm still doing my PPL I can't talk about currency (as my instructor has me doing most of them regularly and has recently had me going out on my own to practice PFLs, stalls, etc) but to me practising clean and full flap stalls is a non-event also. I'm not sure why some people seem scared of them?

[Rod1]

- PFL -2 months
- Stall recovery in cruise -2 months
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach -2 months
- Cable break N/A
- Fire -Think it through every flight
- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) -2 months
- Inadvertent flight into IMC? - When I can :hmm:

Rod1

[Ultra long hauler]

:{ :{ :ugh:

G

How do you propose to get to know the aircraft better if you do not fly at the lower speed ranges? The microlights I have flown have the most docile stall characteristics I've ever encountered, nothing to get worried about. If you're unsure then book some time with an instructor.


Mmm, I realize I should have been more precise with regards to me not doing stalls.
My instructor did them alone, but when we started flying it together we obviously concentrated on circuits, landings etc. I asked for a stall once or twice, but by the time I got to solo-ing etc; plans changed and the engine went from this plane into another; and a new airframe was purchased.

My instructor did point out that he would not be comfortable doing stalls in the home-built kit because he did not "know" the strength of the airframe / wings . I´m not sure about the details……will ask when I´m back.

Now with the new project--> we will definitely be doing stalls!!

Aero patriot Industria Aeronáutica (http://www.aerobravo.com.br/patriot.htm)

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Rod1]

"My instructor did point out that he would not be comfortable doing stalls in the home-built kit because he did not "know" the strength of the airframe / wings "

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have to say ULH, that I think your instructor is I think a bit misguided. Nobody should be doing circuits in an aeroplane they don't understand the low speed handling of. If either the low speed handling or structural strength are suspect then it probably shouldn't be flown at-all, and certainly not used for teaching.

G

[Echo Romeo]

Last weekend I did a PFL, the first one since Sept last year. I made a right mess of it, and had it have been for real would probably have ended up in heap.

I intend practicing them more frequently from now on.

[Crankshaft]

- PFL - Every second landing or so I try do do as a PFL if traffic permits. And from different heights, positions, alternating left/right hand patterns as to not get used to a specific path, windeffect or similar.

- Stall recovery in cruise - A bit of a non event in my aircraft, but I do every now an then a few stalls in different configurations and attitudes.

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach - See above.

- Cable break - Actually I was thinking of control cables here rather than towing cables. Yes, sometimes I pretend that either my rudder, elevator or ailerons has failed, and try do do the circuit without any input with the selected controls.

- Fire - When I do PFL's I try to "surprise" myself with different reasons for the engine failure. Sometimes it happens to be an engine fire. After a simulated shutdown I also go through different smoke scenarios that requires excercising of the vents, cabin heat, and maybe sideslipping.


- EFATO - If we're talking about engine failure just after rotation I don't do this as my normal field is a bit too short to do it safely. In the climb-out I try to think about an engine failure every time but rarely practise unless I fly as an instructor. I think the excercise is a bit pointless whithout the surprise factor. At my regular field I have my well briefed emergency fields for this event.

- Inadvertent flight into IMC? - I fly IFR regularly.

- Anything else?

When I haven't flown for a while I use to do a couple of circuits. At least once I make a balked landing at a late stage. I've more than once had to do this for real at my uncontrolled strip due to people or animals (mostly deers) crossing the runway. My current aircraft doesn't have any flaps but otherwise that would be included in my own refresher as well.

Nobody should be doing circuits in an aeroplane they don't understand the low speed handling of.I absolutely agree. I've been doing a few refresher flights with people flying like this and the results is inevitably that they fly the approach and landing with far too high speeds and making very long landings.

[cct]

As somebody else pointed out, not frequently enough.

- PFL - probably every 3 or 4 months - out in the wild, rather than at an airfield. I do very regularly review possible fields as I cruise.
- Stall recovery in cruise
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach. Both rarely - stalls are pretty much a non-event, and I fell comfortable with the recovery. Probably means I ought to do more
- Cable break - N/A
- Fire. This one worries me, and I want to review at my next biennial
- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) - not enough! Mind not a lot to do except look for something ahead, or within 30 degrees
- Inadvertent flight into IMC? Not really thought about this for a while - probably another for the biennial
- Anything else? Frequently think through scenarios when I cant fly

[AfricanEagle]

- PFL - once or twice every two months, touchdown has to be with 50 metres of selected point on the runway

- Stall recovery in cruise - occasionaly, most times just to show pax it is a non event

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach - no
- Cable break - n/a

- Fire - never think about it thanks for the heads up :ooh:

- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) - have lived the real thing, now permanently imprinted. But I do, every second or third flight, brief myself on what to do should it happen

- Inadvertent flight into IMC? - No, I keep my eyes open and steer clear of clouds

[Ultra long hauler]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Thank you for that great feedback.
The thread wouldn't be the same without it.

I have to say ULH, that I think your instructor is I think a bit misguided. Nobody should be doing circuits in an aeroplane they don't understand the low speed handling of. If either the low speed handling or structural strength are suspect then it probably shouldn't be flown at-all, and certainly not used for teaching.

G

Genghis, I can't say I disagree.
I wasn't going to go against him though....

As I said, it's all pretty moot now anyway.
He promised me stalls in the "new project"; so looking forward to that!!

And before the flamers warm up their torches: my instructor is a gifted pilot, who has flown loads of stuff with zero accidents / incidents at his expense.
I would say he's a good teacher, I often go home feeling pretty small--> and normally I do come back a little stronger.

I will double check on this stall thing though. Please let me get home in a few weeks and I will get back to you.

###Ultra Long Hauler##

[Genghis the Engineer]

And before the flamers warm up their torches: my instructor is a gifted pilot, who has flown loads of stuff with zero accidents / incidents at his expense.

I would say he's a good teacher, I often go home feeling pretty small--> and normally I do come back a little stronger

I try to send my students home feeling they've learned stuff and improved, not small.

Take a look at the UK Microlight Syllabus (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/Syllabus/NPPL%20Microlight%20Syllabus.pdf) which is basically an adaptation of the standard ICAO PPL syllabus developed over quite a lot of years for use on microlight aeroplanes.

If you aren't learning to something very similar, in basically the same order, then there's something basically wrong.

Airworthiness is a bigger issue - different countries have different approaches to this. If you want to be very comfortable about the basic safety of your microlight, pick something that is approved as a microlight/ultralight in the UK, Australia, Germany or the Czech Republic - which are basically the places who do it properly.

G

[Ultra long hauler]

I try to send my students home feeling they've learned stuff and improved, not small.

Take a look at the UK Microlight Syllabus (http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/PDFs/Syllabus/NPPL%20Microlight%20Syllabus.pdf) which is basically an adaptation of the standard ICAO PPL syllabus developed over quite a lot of years for use on microlight aeroplanes.

If you aren't learning to something very similar, in basically the same order, then there's something basically wrong.

Airworthiness is a bigger issue - different countries have different approaches to this. If you want to be very comfortable about the basic safety of your microlight, pick something that is approved as a microlight/ultralight in the UK, Australia, Germany or the Czech Republic - which are basically the places who do it properly.

G

Thanks "G". I'll check it out.

When I say "small" I don't mean humiliated.
I mean that I get the bigger picture, reflecting on my mistakes. I am humble.
He's supporting, technically a very knowlegable man and so far I have been doing allright; flying wise.
I'm not a champ like so many on-line, but I have been to a good few runways without any middle fingers from anybody yet.

Now, in about 3 weeks; we're going to go "stick" in the Patriot together and I can't wait.

I will keep you posted if you want!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Mark1234]

I am genuinely surprised how many people do PFL's at an airfield.

For me the hard parts are:
-Selecting the right field (what looks good from a couple of thousand can look quite ropey from a couple of hundred, particularly wrt slope)
-Planning an appropriate 'circuit' around it w/o prior knowledge and landmarks, positioning into the 'downwind' properly (exacerbated by the need to judge height above an unknown datum).
- Dealing with having committed to a field, getting the approach right and not changing ones mind inappropriately/making good decisions if you are making a hash of it.. Last couple I did 'wild' would have left me in the far hedge.

Obviously the above aren't really tested doing a PFL to the runway. Is this a 'cultural difference' (given my training was not of UK origin)?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I sort of agree Mark.

PFLs / glide approaches to an airfield have training value in practicing judging the glide and going through the procedures, but they are nowhere near as busy as trying to position for a field, the identity of which you didn't know when the throttle was pulled, on uncertain terrain, and with numerous obstructions to take into account.

Similarly the post above by our American friend n5296s; who thinks that EFATO is about "just land straight ahead". Well maybe in Kansas where it's all huge flat fields, or on a huge war-surplus runway with an extra mile in front of you after take-off. But, at most European GA airfields, or quite a few in places like Alaska or Florida, where at very low heights you have to pick a field in front of you, convert a climb very quickly to a glide, finely judge your positioning, and set up for a landing in that one just-about-big-enough field 29.5 degrees off the runway centreline without hitting the trees, drystone walls, or power lines that inevitably surround it. All in not very many seconds. That can be really quite demanding.

The turnback (which the Americans call the impossible turn) is of course one way of dealing with that, if you're practiced enough, if you're high enough, and if conditions are in your favour. But it's still an EFATO.

G

[neilgeddes]

Did my first ever Practice PAN to D&D 121.50 yesterday :ok:

[RTN11]

I am genuinely surprised how many people do PFL's at an airfield.

I would normally use it to finish off a session of PFLs, or at the end of a nav for a student who hasn't done a PFL in a while, it really helps the student remember what they can and can't get away with, particularly mistakes like pulling flap too early and then falling short.

Nothing beats getting out and about, getting low over a field. Something that looks green and flat from 3000' looks lumpy, rutted and covered with telephone cables from 300', and students really need to learn this judgement of what would be a suitable site.

Did my first ever Practice PAN to D&D 121.50 yesterday

That's great, in the UK the guys at D&D really seem to appreciate it as it keeps their skills sharp too.

[Ultra long hauler]

Earlier on I mentioned not having practiced stalls due to my instructor being uncomfortable stalling the microlight back then…….causing this reaction:

I have to say ULH, that I think your instructor is I think a bit misguided. Nobody should be doing circuits in an aeroplane they don't understand the low speed handling of. If either the low speed handling or structural strength are suspect then it probably shouldn't be flown at-all, and certainly not used for teaching.

G

Okay, I sent a few E-mails and it seems that I was wrong!
This was the reason why we didn´t do stalls, just to clarify:

My instructor was NOT happy doing stalls in that particular plane not due to the structural strength; but rather to the altitude restriction in the area where we are. We could only go up to 1000´ (we are next to an international airport); and my instructor was not comfortable trying a stall in an unknown plane at that altitude.

Now, local rules have changed--> my new plane is registered as a LSA, so he promised me stalls as soon as I come home.
He said it wasn´t a big deal, that it´s not as exciting as it sounds.

He did add that with home kit planes; you have to more careful though.
If both wings are not identical; you could easily get into a spin; which why he wanted more altitude before stalling.

He added that this particular microlight is rather "over-engineered"--> not at all unsafe, but rather sluggish to fly cause it´s so heavy.

Genghis, I was the one that was misguided!
Apologies!!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Gertrude the Wombat]

My instructor was NOT happy doing stalls in that particular plane not due to the structural strength; but rather to the altitude restriction in the area where we are. We could only go up to 1000´ (we are next to an international airport); and my instructor was not comfortable trying a stall in an unknown plane at that altitude.
The height rules for stalling at my club are

Dual - sufficient to recover by 2,000'
Solo - sufficient to recover by 3,000'

so there would be no question of whether the instructor was comfortable or what the aircraft type was, it would simply be against the rules, end of story.

Are there any club flying order books which allow stalling at 1,000'?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most gliding clubs I think Gertrude.

I still wouldn't want to be taking an aeroplane into the circuit, or teaching on it, without having stalled it, but I do agree that stalling any aeroplane below 1000ft unless you know it incredibly well and it has very benign characteristics, is foolhardy. I think personally that your instructor should have been prepared to take the aircraft some distance if necessary to fly these bits of the syllabus.

G

[maxred]

I tend not to have practiced too much of late. When I was flying the Chipmunk, and practicing routines, I felt very much up to speed. It has been a while since I was doing that stuff, and I now fly differing types more frequently, therefore I tend to go from A to B.

However, I renew ratings, bi annual SEP validation, and I take once every three months, a check ride with an instructor, where we complete some of the more intensive Instrument let downs, and Unusual attitide stuff.

Interestingly though, having come through the EFATO thread, I was sitting last night bored with Big Brother, and I did think I must get out and do more emergency practice. I have also found that not ALL instructors are up for a bit of intense manouvering, and I respect their judgement. Horses for courses.:sad:

[Ultra long hauler]

I still wouldn't want to be taking an aeroplane into the circuit, or teaching on it, without having stalled it

Aaahh Genghis, but you see; I covered that:

My instructor did them alone, but when we started flying it together we obviously concentrated on circuits, landings etc.

He did them before I even joined the club.


I think personally that your instructor should have been prepared to take the aircraft some distance if necessary to fly these bits of the syllabus.

Fair enough, I won´t argue with that.

He mentioned roughly 3.000 feet for us to start practicing in the LSA!
Can´t wait!

Cheers!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Genghis the Engineer]

3000ft is a sensible height for practicing stalls.

You may find it mildly exciting, but it isn't anything really disturbing - at-least at those sort of altitudes.

G

[chrisN]

As a glider pilot:

- PFL None since 1971 when I was cleared for field landings and cross country flying.
- Real forced landings: Over 150, of which at least 100 into farmers fields etc. (typically 4-6 p.a. from about 1972 – 2005. Not so many since, none last year.)
– Stall recovery in cruise: At least 2 p.a. with an instructor, and umpteen when solo.
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach – never, unless meant at much higher altitude. (Not good news low down in a glider, and I’m surprised anybody does it in powered a/c).
- Cable break: At least 1 p.a. with an instructor. Sometimes a real one when solo, but with modern winch systems it is much less frequent than it used to be.

- Fire: never. (In a glider, it would be jettison canopy, and bale out, unless one could land very quickly. Somebody did the latter recently – just in time, the fire destroyed the fuselage. Caused by spilt oil/fuel from the self-launching engine igniting somehow. If interested, see the photo at:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KxCxPHmzGh6QLWpwNxzO-89qFTGEW4n0nzOv7VfjGwM? )

- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off): NA.
- Inadvertent flight into IMC? Same as Rod1 – whenever I can, usually several times each year.-
- Spins - At least 2 p.a. with an instructor. Seem not permitted in my solo glider - utility category, i.e.no aerobatics (though recovery is specified in POH). I do solo stalls with wing drop (“incipient spin” in old money) several times p.a.

Chris N.

[fwjc]

- PFL
Probably average once a month
- Stall recovery in cruise
Every three or four flights, on average
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach
Not as often as I should, assuming you mean the base turn to final part of the approach? Once in a while, but more often now!
- Cable break
Not a glider pilot, but I do practice flying without controls - stick / throttle / rudder, trim. Try it in a Tiger sometime - no stick just rudder throttle and trim. The spring based trim isn't an aerodynamic trim like newer stuff, and causes a fugoid motion which is a little disconcerting. Fun to try though.
- Fire
Touch drill only
- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off)
Occasionally do this one. I know my local terrain pretty well, so would like to try at another location I'm less familiar with.
- Inadvertent flight into IMC?
Until recently, didn't have any instruments to speak of so no.
- Anything else?
Landing from anywhere in the circuit, as quickly as possible - need an empty circuit for this.
Different approach regimes (flaps, short field, spot landing, fast wheelers, crosswinds etc)
Instruments out, really only asi and altimeter up to now, but moving onto other bits of kit.
Twice done air start - once in C152, once in Tiger. Need lots of height plus landing options. Both times dual.
Upset practice - some recovery from unusual attitude, with a safety pilot obviously!

Lots more to think about though.

[chrisN]

fwjc, I (and I think others) took the reference to cable breaks to refer to the launch cable used to get gliders into the air by means of a winch, rather than the control cables within the glider or aircraft. Hence the power pilots saying not applicable, and me giving a positive answer.

I have very rarely practised flying with loss of any of the controls. Most gliders are unflyable without use of the elevator, although some are stable in pitch when properly trimmed, and some with an aerodynamic trim tab rather than a spring in the elevator circuit could perhaps be controlled in pitch via the trim tab.

It is said by some that one can do without ailerons by using rudder, and vice versa. When I have tried this in a glider, it does not work at all well. If I get back to flying again, I might try it again in my present glider, so thanks to this thread for raising the issue.

Chris N

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Chickened out of a club currency check ride today, on the grounds that I didn't fancy doing glide approaches with gusty crosswinds at my limit.

Yeah yeah, I can hear y'all now: "but if the engine fails for real, it won't check the wind conditions first".

[thing]

PFL-don't do them away from the airfield, don't like being low down if I don't have to be. Done loads of real ones as a glider pilot anyway (except we call them 'outlandings', far more elegant) so they don't worry me, through many years of habit I unconsciously always have a field selected.

- Stall recovery in cruise. If I'm having a bimble I might go through the different stalls for amusement.

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach-see above

- Cable break-get enough real ones without having to practise them, we're not a wealthy club and piano wire gets a bit brittle....

- Fire-very good call, I don't but in future I'll run through my fire drills before every take off. Thank you.

- EFATO- same reason as PFL's, shutting the donk down at 500' for fun is a bit of an anathema to me. I'm always ready for a cable break, likewise I'm always expecting the engine to fail on take off.

- Inadvertent flight into IMC?-just finished my IMC course, no probs with that one.

- Anything else?-Spins, do them as currency checks on gliders. I enjoy doing them anyway so given HASLL I often give myself a rotation or two.

FWJC has made an interesting point about controlling the a/c without controls, I'll give that a go.

[RTN11]

Inadvertent flight into IMC?-just finished my IMC course, no probs with that one.

Even with an IR or IMCR, entry into IMC can still be inadvertent, and although it may not carry the risks of losing control, it can still entail the risks of icing, terrain avoidance and aircraft separation.

Unless you've put the planning in to MSA and traffic service etc, then you should still look to remain clear of IMC. :}

[thing]

But an inadvertent flight into IMC isn't a planned one anyway...

How does inadvertent flight into IMC work anyway? Do you see a cloud or rain squall, pretend you haven't seen it then when you enter it go 'Oh no, I've inadvertently entered IMC, damn my stupidity, now I'll have to to use my skills'?

The word inadvertant conjures up to me pilots flying with their eyes closed. Inadvertently flying into IMC is a bit like inadvertently flying into the ground.

'You flew into the ground Smithers.'

'Yeah but I didn't mean to.'

'Well that's OK then.'

[RTN11]

There are still a fair number of accidents attributed to CFIT, some of which may have been a result of flying into cloud without the proper planning regarding MSA.

Simply thinking "I have the rating, now I can fly into cloud on every flight" isn't going to help.

I've had the experience of flying into what I thought was a light rain shower I could see the other side of, once inside realising it was actually a snow shower (can be deceptive before you're inside). Once in there it was effectively IMC, so did the 180 and came out.

[thing]

My last post was tongue in cheek by the way. It's not actually the cloud that kills you though is it, it's lack of planning for being in there. You did what I would have done in the event of flying into snow, do a 180. There was no problem or danger there, you were prepared and made the correct decision.

I'm not going to go looking for clouds and spend as much time in them as I can (I fly for the views amongst other things) however the rating is there to be used and there's no point having it and then 25 months later come to your reval without having spent a single second on instruments or an approach. Likewise you wouldn't get a night rating then never fly at night. You maybe wouldn't plan to be flying at night but if there was some unforseen hold up, you wouldn't go looking for a hotel because it was starting to get dark, you would use your rating because that presumably is why you got it in the first place.

[mrmum]

there's no point having it and then 25 months later come to your reval without having spent a single second on instruments or an approach. Likewise you wouldn't get a night rating then never fly at night
You might be surprised just how many people do exactly that. I agree with you that if you've earned the rating, then why not use it. Indeed, new skills attained, if not subsequently practiced, get rusty quickly. However, some people just like the learning experience and have no desire to really use the rating afterwards, that's fair enough, it's their choice.

[thing]

Indeed it is their choice if one that bemuses me slightly. I'm surprised actually that people don't use the ratings they have, although I have heard people at my club saying that 'It's just a get out of jail card.' It may well be but if you don't practice it regularly it may become a pile into the ground card.

[FullWings]

'You flew into the ground Smithers.'

'Yeah but I didn't mean to.'

'Well that's OK then.'
For some reason that made me laugh... :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Indeed it is their choice if one that bemuses me slightly. I'm surprised actually that people don't use the ratings they have, although I have heard people at my club saying that 'It's just a get out of jail card.' It may well be but if you don't practice it regularly it may become a pile into the ground card.

The "get out of gaol" card argument is generally perpetuated by a particular breed of IR holders who regard IMC training as substandard, and feel a need to thus put it down. Of course, it is a lower standard than the IR, but since the IR is intended for flying commercial passengers in class A airspace, that's appropriate.

A properly trained and current IMC pilot, working to IMC limits is not unsafe.

As you say quite correctly, the IMC can be legally used within its limits, and if a holder doesn't, they'll lose the ability and be unable to safely fly in IMC if they need to. The result is potentially very dangerous if, say 24 months after the test, they get stuck VFR on top (quite legally) then just don't have the currency of skill to safely fly an instrument approach.

G

[thing]

For some reason that made me laugh... :)

Don't encourage me, I may make more asinine attempts at humour..:)