A Cautionary Tale ?

[742-xx]

I stumbled across this on the wonderful internet.
To say it sent a shiver down my spine would be an understatement.
I didn't realise that such fines were possible.

www.gmc-uk.org/static/documents/content/Beare-_Winter.pdf (http://www.gmc-uk.org/static/documents/content/Beare-_Winter.pdf)

Apologies if it's been done to death before.

[mad_jock]

yep and there will have been another chunk of "costs" stuck on the top as well.

At least the bloke has done the decent thing and handed his license back.

[JP1]

Can you unintentionally fly at 300ft over a built up area and enter class D airspace without clearance 5 times in the course of 1 flight!

Anyone have the real story behind this?

[JP1]

A GP esacped a warning after he flew a plane too low over a built-up residential area without a valid pilot (http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/9072986.Low_flying_doctor_escapes_medical_rap/)


..Most people would have used a ladder!

[PompeyPaul]

Quite a collection of offenses for only 30 mins flying! Bet he was glad he stuck to his guns and dodged a warning.

[P.Pilcher]

I bet that if "Flying Lawyer" hadn't been made a Judge he would have got him off most of those charges. He may have found the one about not holding a valid licence a bit difficult though!

P.P.

[foxmoth]

I bet that if "Flying Lawyer" hadn't been made a Judge he would have got him off most of those charges.

Maybe - but would he have wanted to? I do not really see how so much of this would be "unintentional", criminally careless at the least for someone with a valid licence. Someone who has flouted the rules so blatantly deserve the full force of the law.:ooh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

He really was having a bad day wasn't he.

I struggle to see how he did all of that accidentally, and handing his licence back seems a little OTT: I suspect however that there may have been pressures and communication about that which aren't evident.

For flying that badly, a fine of around 4 flying hours cost doesn't seem desperately unreasonable.

G

[Cusco]

Do architects, civil engineers, I T workers, plumbers, roadsweepers get reported to their disciplinary/regulatory body if they bust airspace?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Do architects, civil engineers, I T workers, plumbers, roadsweepers get reported to their disciplinary/regulatory body if they bust airspace?

As a chartered engineer, I'm required to report to my institutions (in my case the RAeS and the IMechE) if I've been convicted of any criminal offence. Whilst I'm aeronautical and mechanical engineer, the same would apply to a chartered civil engineer or a chartered computer engineer.

I suspect that plumbers and roadsweepers are okay.

G

[QDMQDMQDM]

Do architects, civil engineers, I T workers, plumbers, roadsweepers get reported to their disciplinary/regulatory body if they bust airspace?

No, they don't and it is symptomatic of the paranoiac and obsessive over-regulation we are labouring under in this country. They have lost all sense of proportion on the medical side of things.

Yrs,

A GP

[Genghis the Engineer]

QDM - yes we do, see above.

Realistically, both our professions are heavily built upon trust, and in this case the physician in question (no doctoral degree that I could see :E) was not punished in any way, but he did have to report the offences.

G

[QDMQDMQDM]

Genghis, my point is that this should have been dealt with at the screening process and shouldn't have resulted in a hearing. Common sense has been lost totally when it comes to medical regulation. The latest GMC proposals to regulate doctors' private lives are frightening, as far as I am concerned, and go way over the top.

[NazgulAir]

The more I think about this bizarre situation, the more I am convinced that there is a story behind this story given the drastic action of the pilot/owner/operator to ground himself.
It's useless to speculate about the cause(s) but this act deserves respect.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis, my point is that this should have been dealt with at the screening process and shouldn't have resulted in a hearing. Common sense has been lost totally when it comes to medical regulation. The latest GMC proposals to regulate doctors' private lives are frightening, as far as I am concerned, and go way over the top.

I have to agree there - he had to report it, but the GMC didn't need to go to a hearing. There's little relationship between what he did wrong there, and his trustworthiness as a physician.

G

[Cusco]

QDMQDMQDM Wrote

Genghis, my point is that this should have been dealt with at the screening process and shouldn't have resulted in a hearing. Common sense has been lost totally when it comes to medical regulation. The latest GMC proposals to regulate doctors' private lives are frightening, as far as I am concerned, and go way over the top.

Hear hear :D

Another quack.

[Cusco]

G the E wrote

As a chartered engineer, I'm required to report to my institutions (in my case the RAeS and the IMechE) if I've been convicted of any criminal offence. Whilst I'm aeronautical and mechanical engineer, the same would apply to a chartered civil engineer or a chartered computer engineer.

But this chap wasn't convicted of anything: He was hauled over the coals in the same very public way as if he'd been sh*gging his patients.

And then merely got a wrist slap. What a waste of a tribunal.

QDMcubed is right - regulation if doctors' private lives is going in a very worrying direction.

[Mariner9]

but the GMC didn't need to go to a hearing

Calm down chaps, it would seem they did :=

On 31 March the GMC wrote to you in accordance with rule 7...and advised that the Case Examiners may be minded to issue you with a warning. On 6 April 2011 you indicated you were not prepared to accept the proposed warning and wished to exercise your rights....to a hearing before the Investigation Committee

M9 (Not a quack ;))

[BossEyed]

For flying that badly, a fine of around 4 flying hours cost doesn't seem desperately unreasonable.

Strewth, Genghis, what are you flying these days, that £5k* is around 4 hours cost?


(Fines = £1800+£1200+£2000)

[The Heff]

An unfortunate demonstration of poor airmanship, poor navigation and poor administration; but I don't understand why he's completely giving up aviation. The fact that his licence has lapsed gives him an opportunity to get some instruction to prevent him from repeating the mistakes. Something must have happened on that flight to have really shaken him up, badly. :uhoh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not, but he was flying a PA-32, which is probably around 250/hr - okay, a bit more than four times. And per offence. Without doubt CAA does intend those fines to be a deterrent.

G

[Roffa]

I find it mildly amusing that the administrative error, the lack of current medical/licence, is considered more serious by the GMC Committee than the actual act of low flying and busting airspace.

Like the latter would have been okay if the former was current :rolleyes:

[Flying Lawyer]

foxmothMaybe - but would he (Flying Lawyer) have wanted to?

I would have been very happy to represent him (in my former life).

Someone who has flouted the rules so blatantly deserve the full force of the law. I have no reason to suppose he did blatantly flout the rules. Whether he did or not, he certainly felt the full force of the law. He was fined a total of £5000, despite immediately admitting the offences, fully cooperating with the CAA investigation and pleading guilty. I don’t think anyone could sensibly regard the penalties as lenient. (He was probably ordered to pay costs in addition to the fines.)

In relation to the professional proceedings, I see considerable force in QDM’s point. I admire the doctor's courage in declining to accept the warning offered, even though that meant he would have to go through a hearing. The Investigation Committee, entirely properly IMHO, concluded that a warning was neither appropriate nor proportionate. Common sense ultimately prevailed.

GtE the physician in question (no doctoral degree that I could see )He is a doctor in the sense that the title is (correctly) used by the overwhelming majority of the UK population.
(I realise that some people with academic doctorates like to be called 'Doctor' - instead of using the relevant post nominal letters - even when outside academic institutions.

Without doubt CAA does intend those fines to be a deterrent. The CAA doesn't decide the amount of the fine(s).
In my experience, fines in aviation cases vary greatly, not least because most courts have little or no experience of dealing with aviation matters.


RoffaI find it mildly amusing that the administrative error, the lack of current medical/licence, is considered more serious by the GMC Committee than the actual act of low flying and busting airspace.

The magistrates court took the same view. The highest fine was for the lapsed medical/licence.
Perhaps the prosecutor suggested that was the most serious when giving the facts to the court?

That said, low flying and infringing airspace both vary considerably from minor to very serious depending upon the particular facts of the case.


FL

[Roffa]

FL,

That said, low flying and infringing airspace both vary considerably from minor to very serious depending upon the particular facts of the case.

True. I guess my background and experiences just make me more inclined towards seeing the practical act as more of an issue than the administrative one*.

If he'd have flown sensibly nobody would have been any the wiser, not that that makes it okay of course.

* though as someone requiring a valid and current licence inc medical to exercise my competence I am aware of the implications of letting any part of it lapse!

[Genghis the Engineer]

FL - my sense of humour only regarding titles. Many people have titles, earned or unearned. Of the several I can choose from, 'Mr' is the only one not earned, and you sometimes need to be called something! At-least people generally understand Dr., and those who have it, earned it.

Regarding the lapsed medical, I wonder if there was a general view that as a physician, medical certification is the one he could, and should, have taken most seriously?

G

[PompeyPaul]

Without doubt CAA does intend those fines to be a deterrent.
Or, perhaps a thought of "wow, if we can rinse 30 quid from a car driver for a parking ticket just IMAGINE what we can raise from a ppl?!?!?"

Not condoning the actions of the doctor who, from what i've read, demonstrated spectacularly poor airmanship. i can't help but feel big fines like that, instead of a community work placement, do smell more of revenue generation than punishment.......

[flybymike]

but I don't understand why he's completely giving up aviation.
Perhaps he was so utterly pi55ed off by burdensome regulation which although it had nothing whatever to do with his working life, none the less threatened to remove his livelihood, that he felt it necessary to make this (futile) gesture of disgust against the establishment.
Many pilots fly perfectly safely and legally by declaring themselves medically fit without any medical examination necessary (Medically related NPPL statistics are I understand better than Class 2 ones) Moves are afoot in the USA for further relaxation on medical matters, and of course what motive might anyone have for intentionally infringing?
Edit. I know nothing of the circumstances of this case and the whole episode was undoubtedly a complete debacle from any point of view.

[abgd]

Medically related NPPL statistics are I understand better than Class 2 onesI'd be interested to see where that comes from. I can see the argument that a class-2 medical may not increase safety enough to be proportionate, but I don't immediately see how there can be a causal link between having more medical scrutiny and having more accidents.

There could be an association - e.g. ppls may be likely to be older than nppls and will therefore have more cardiac events whilst flying.


He is a doctor in the sense that the title is (correctly) used by the overwhelming majority of the UK population.
(I realise that some people with academic doctorates like to be called 'Doctor' - instead of using the relevant post nominal letters - even when outside academic institutions.I'm interested to hear that - I had thought that 'doctor' for a medical doctor was an honorary title, but a PhD was a 'proper doctor'. I know it's an offence to try to fraudulently pass oneself off as a medic... But that's a separate issue.

But going back on topic, amongst other things, you would want any doctor treating you to be competent, which implies not only knowledge but also common sense and a degree of attention to detail. I think it's quite an interesting question, to what extent these attributes carry over from one area of life to another. Not talking about this case in particular, I think there's a case to be made that the GMC (or equivalent) should be involved whenever a doctor calls their integrity or judgement into doubt.

Which isn't to say that the current setup for medical training, assessment and licensing isn't bureaucratic and frequently downright inhumane.

[Cusco]

G the E wrote

Many people have titles, earned or unearned. Of the several I can choose from, 'Mr' is the only one not earned, and you sometimes need to be called something!

Believe me, G the E , there are certain branches of the medical profession where the term Mr is very hard earned!.

Cusco (Mr)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Indeed they have, but I didn't.

G (Dr., Eur.Ing., Tashi, Sensei, Mr. and presumably Captain)

[flybymike]

Medically related NPPL statistics are I understand better than Class 2 ones

I'd be interested to see where that comes from. I can see the argument that a class-2 medical may not increase safety enough to be proportionate, but I don't immediately see how there can be a causal link between having more medical scrutiny and having more accidents.


I think it was David Roberts who produced some statistics over on the Flyer forum a while ago. I have had a quick search but cannot find the relevant thread at the moment.

[mad_jock]

The good old Dr of philosophy v medical doctor.

Always hilarious amounts of fun, especially when there is a Medic with a Phd and a sense of humour stirring things up.

All very childish with renditions of Post man Pat.

Now even Dentists are calling themselves Doctor which must be a bit of a kick in the bollocks to the medics.

[M-ONGO]

G the E - this thread is about a CAA prosecution. Get off your soap box about the titles!

(P.S. with the avatar 'boffin at large', I'm sure we all assumed you would have letters after your name...)

[Genghis the Engineer]

G the E - this thread is about a CAA prosecution. Get off your soap box about the titles!

Soap box? I made a throwaway comment and somebody picked up on it. Then we had a traditional PPrune thread-drift.

And is it about the CAA prosecution,the GMC hearing, why the chap gave his licence back? Or for that matter why he got it wrong and committed the offences in the first place?

G

[M-ONGO]

And is it about the CAA prosecution,the GMC hearing, why the chap gave his licence back? Or for that matter why he got it wrong and committed the offences in the first place?

Why he got it wrong in the first place?

I wouldnt know Genghis. I'm not a psychologist. I don't have that title after my name...

[mad_jock]

Think it should be title before your name :p and letters after ;)

MJ who has letters after but no titles and hates it when certain folk in the industry send me letters addressed Capt MJ

[M-ONGO]

Jings MJ! And corrected by you of all people :) good catch!

FL - are the fines means tested that the courts dish out? Possibly why they were so high?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Think it should be title before your name :p and letters after ;)

MJ who has letters after but no titles and hates it when certain folk in the industry send me letters addressed Capt MJ

Who gets the Captain title anyhow? I've only ever been addressed as Captain when I'm being bollocked, as in "were you the captain of the aircraft which broke rules X, Y and Z ?"

G

[Legalapproach]

As someone who deals with both aviation and GMC cases I will add a couple of comment as follows:

Level of fines - undoubtedly the magistrates would have had regard to the defendant's means and would have pitched the level of the fine accordingly. Higher the income generally means the higher the fine.

GMC - the GMC would generally be concerned about matters that affect a Doctor's ability to practice and the confidence of the public in the medical profession. Therefore what might be seen as paperwork errors (overlooking an expired medical etc) are things that could directly translate into a Doctor's professional capabilities and may be more serious in a GMC context than other actions that would be outside the scope of a doctor's duties/responsibilities.

[cct]

"MJ who has letters after but no titles and hates it when certain folk in the industry send me letters addressed Capt M"

Wouldnt that be M Capt J? or just Mad Cap?

[mad_jock]

Its bizarre actually who does use the Captain ****e.

BALPA do until you tell them not to.

If you have interactions with some Mil units the letters etc are addressed to Capt. but I can understand this with rank structure etc.

I don't mind work stuff to be honest going to the company but if its sent too my home address I get a bit annoyed especially when they just presume even after filling a form with Mr on it. Once ordered some 4 bars from an online shop because I lost mine and they got delivered to Capt MJ.

There are some knob Jockeys out there that use it on every bit of paper work they can get it on. I have no doubt There are cards/paperwork out there with Capt Robert Weaver on them.

I haven't a clue who should use it and who shouldn't, Some areas of the world every pilot is called Captain. The only time I get called Captain in Europe is when very rarely when I have had to have words with handling or ground crew or the ramp rats are taking the piss.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Err, you ordered a set of 4 gold bars for yourself and don't want them to be addressed to "Captain" ?

G

[mad_jock]

No I don't especially when I put Mr on the form especially when the prats had an option for Capt which I didn't select.

And as it hasn't had an outing for a while

http://www.aveight.aero/shared/media/images/73/Captains-Ring.jpg

We have of course got the famous captains ring.

And gawd knows what they would call you if you ordered the five bar option.

[wsmempson]

Mad Jock,

Where are you meant to wear that ring?

;-)

[flybymike]

Where are you meant to where that ring?


Is that a poke at Jock's famously unique spelling or is he infecting everyone on the forum?

[The Heff]

Carrying on the thread-drift to which should possibly be asked in another PPRuNe forum: Why do airline and some commercial pilots use the title "Captain", rather than their actual capacity which is "Pilot-in-Command"? Also, why is the Second Pilot referred to as "First Officer" when he is also the only other 'officer' in the aeroplane?

My first thought was that this could be a throw-back to the days of the airships, when early airlines would use a nautical hierarchy to emulate passenger-carrying vessels at sea; but if the modern airlines were really trying to emulate the traditional airlines then why give the 'Captain' or the 'First Officer' a pilot's licence instead of an aerial 'Master's ticket'?

At sea, the 'pilot' is the chap who comes to meet you in a tug to pilot one's vessel safely into harbour; so in the airline industry, shouldn't this accolade surely be awarded to the ground marshalls who direct the aircraft safely to the gate?

I realise that much of the terminology in aviation has origins in the mariner's profession, but in some ways the aeronautical is quite distinct from the nautical and perhaps modern usage should reflect this. After all, the airliner's 'cockpit' seems to have become a 'Flight Deck'; perhaps the 'Captain' should become the "Pilot-in-Command"?

[Dave Gittins]

Just to drift a bit further .... many, many years ago I got to visit the drivers on a big Hoverlloyd SRN-4 mid channel and they were sat at very aircraft like controls.

When I asked what aeronautical training and qualification they had to drive the contraption I was told very firmly "None .. Because this is a Ship !!!!"

It transpired that the gentleman in the LH seat was THE Captain, but the guy in the RH seat was also A Captain as they both had master mariners certificates and pilots qualifications for various bits of the English Channel.

The guy with the real responsibility was the man with his head down a tube over the radar set shouting a constant string of directional instructions to the drivers to stop them banging into the many ships that kept appearing out of the mile or so visibility while we charged round at about 50 kts.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I read a book recently on the history of the East India Company, and in particular its ships.

The ships had a captain, but then 1st mate, 2nd mate, 3rd mate and so-on.

It seemed necessary if breaking into the job, to effectively buy your way with a combination of passage and training into 5th or 6th mate, and generally each voyage (a voyage typically taking 2-3 years) you had a chance of climbing the ladder one rung. At about 3rd mate, the income started to catch up on the training debt, 2nd mates actually had spare money, and a captain needed 2-3 voyages (i.e. 6-10 years) to then retire comfortable for the rest of their lives.

Other specialist jobs (carpenters, traders, and so-on) had their own separate career structures, were cheaper to get into, but the rewards were lower as well.

Nothing like modern aviation at-all really :}



In the modern merchant navy, incidentally, I think it's a requirement - and has been for most of a century, that to fill a command position, you have to be qualified to do the job above you. So, a first mate has to hold a masters certificate, for example.

G

[Mariner9]

In the modern merchant navy, incidentally, I think it's a requirement - and has been for most of a century, that to fill a command position, you have to be qualified to do the job above you. So, a first mate has to hold a masters certificate, for example.

Not a legal requirement under IMO STCW regulations, but widely practised in the better-run Merchant maritime fleets :8

[L'aviateur]

The strange thing in the Merchant Navy is that title Captain (accepted practice to be used once you've held a command, not just on having a Master Mariners CoC), is held with pride and those that move ashore retain the title on business cards and official documents which increases respect for them amongst other MN Officers & Captains.
It's a shame that in the aviation industry it's belittled amongst people who choose to use it.

Back to the OP, does anyone have a background to the actual circumstances of what happened.

[The Heff]

I think the reason why pilot's are embarrassed to call themselves 'Captain' is because the title of 'Captain' is normally associated with naval and merchant officers who have spent years working with a company to earn their rank and their command. A sea-going Captain in the Royal Navy might command a warship and her crew of over 200 men. A sea-going Captain in the merchant fleets might command an oil tanker with her complement of maybe two dozen men. An airline Captain might command a Boeing with her crew of...er...? :\

This post shouldn't be read as being detrimental to any pilots who use or have been awarded the title of 'Captain' by their line or company; I think everyone on this forum would be the first to agree that earning an ATPL or CPL is a great achievement, and is something that most, if not a great number of PPLs and NPPLs aspire to.

However, what I would like to discuss is whether we are captaining our vessels or are we piloting them? As Pilot's-in-Command we make command decisions that can either wreck or save the flight, and that in itself deserves accolade. Would we be less embarrassed to use our title if it wasn't equally used by a senior sea-going officer?

[Cusco]

I think all pilot's who are commander's of airliner's should be able to call themselve's captain.

Edit: smilies added for peter337's benefit ;););)

[peterh337]

Aaaarggghhhhh (http://www.chrisrand.com/blog/index.php/2010/10/11/nice-juicy-grocers-apostrophe/)

[flybymike]

A truly magnificent example.:)