China Eastern takes off without permission in apparent misunderstanding

[Eboy]

From the Wall Street Journal:

China Eastern Airlines is pledging to improve the English-language skills of its crew following an incident in the Japanese city of Osaka where a Shanghai-bound China Eastern flight took off apparently without permission from the tower, in what may have been a simple case of broken communication between the pilot and controllers.

English Lessons for China Airline After Unauthorized Take Off - China Real Time Report - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/12/01/english-lessons-for-china-airline-after-unauthorized-take-off/)

[Dream Land]

Not siding with anyone here, but the controllers in Japan speak some of the worst English on the planet.

[Green Guard]

Japlish ?????

[cwatters]

Out of interest what does the tower normally do if they see one "going for it" without permission? Do they allow it to continue unless unsafe?

[Airbubba]

I sometimes have a problem with the accents in KIX but the controllers there and elsewhere in Japan are excellent from my experience.

I still hate those conditional runway clearances, 'behind landing traffic, line up and wait'. Sometimes you get them with traffic rolling out and another plane on final.

And, some of my fellow Americans are still very casual with the readbacks, the CB radio craze ended in the '70's but you'd never know it listening to the transmissions.

'Delta 280, line up and wait runway 02 left'

'Uh, 280 clear to go'

'Negative Delta 280, I say again, line up and wait runway 02 left!'

'OK, 280 on the hold'

[Spitoon]

Out of interest what does the tower normally do if they see one "going for it" without permission? Do they allow it to continue unless unsafe?I think that would be the general attitude if the aircraft was well into the roll - as with the decision on the flight deck there comes a point where it's safer to carry on than to stop. If it's just starting to move I think it would be a case of trying to stop it.....but I guess you make a judgement every time. Obviously if it's unsafe you have to stop the departure but if it can go safely and communication is so poor that trying to explain what's wrong or what to do next is only going to create further problems then maybe letting it go is the easiest course of action.

As a native English speaker it's easy to criticise poor language skills and communications from others but I try to imagine what it would be like if I had to use another language to do the job!

[jrmyl]

Well, as someone who has experience with both sides of the party, I will have to side with the controller on this one. I am an American who works in Japan and don't have any problems with the Japanese ATC here.

I also worked as a flight instructor in the late 90's doing instruction for China Eastern airlines's new hire cadets in Florida. Their English skills were non-existent. Apparently they haven't improved at all. We had students departing without clearances then also. :ugh:

[saucy jack]

Is it true, or just urban myth, that Chinese cadets at a certain integrated school are provided as a matter of course with Level 6 english language certificates regardless of ability, by way of an incentive to entice business through the door?

[filejw]

Dream Land...you need to see more of the planet....

[Dream Land]

Being based in USA, the UK and now SE Asia, I think I've seen plenty, in this neighborhood the Japanese have the hardest time with pronunciation. I think ATC specialists are supposed to be level 5 or better.

[ATC Watcher]

Dreamland : Minimum is level 4 , not 5 , and, as it is a licence matter, whose issuance is done by a State authority, not a flying school.
Thanks you for your interest in aviation, but why don't you just read and learn here instead of posting ?

[nomorecatering]

As a current Australia based flight instructor who is currently training Chinese cadets, I am horrified to read that even 1 school is handing out level 6 english assesments without the student reaching those levels.

I have trained cadets for China Southern, China Eastern, Juneayo, Shen Fung, Shenzhen and a few others I cant remember. They all can speak english by the time they leave Aus, while not using complicated words, they do have a vocabulary such that i can talk to them for hrs on end on diverse subjects as aviation, social issues, politics, family life with more than a few dirty jokes thrown in for good measure.

In fact most of them have english skills better than many of the born and bred Aussies who populate the suburbs surrounding the airport.

I do hope this is not typical of US flight schools.

[A-3TWENTY]

English is a real issue in China...I`ve seen some level 4 pilots who actually are level 0.
I just don`t know how some get their ICAO Level 4....

[Dream Land]

ATC, please advise me about all of your experience operating here in Asia, I've been operating throughout Asia for 7+ years, waiting to be enlightened.

[Tank2Engine]

Not siding with anyone here, but the controllers in Japan speak some of the worst English on the planet.
What a load of nonsense, but hey what do I know: the company I work for flies worldwide, not just in Asia.

Obviously Japanese controllers have an accent (who doesn't?!) but IMHO they really make an effort to speak clearly and concise and on top of that they also speak English to Japanese airlines which aids situational awareness. :ok:

[Dream Land]

What a load of nonsense, but hey what do I know: the company I work for flies worldwide, not just in Asia. Well I'm based here and think I am entitled to my own opinion, but I hear and use more "say again over" or "please spell the fix" over Japan's airspace than anywhere else in this neighborhood.

[Tee Emm]

but hey what do I know:

What a most unusual expression this is; and seen so often in Pprune. Can any reader tell me what on earth "but hey what do I know", means when added on the end of a sentence? :confused:

[Dream Land]

Usually a statement tossed in by the - mine is bigger than yours crowd. :rolleyes:

[filejw]

Dream Land, Worldwide for 20 plus years and if I was to write a list Japan would not be near the top.

[Dream Land]

That's great, but if you actually read the post, I mentioned SE Asia, but I am impressed, not sure how our qualifications came into play.

[B737NG]

I had my time in Asia and I remember the difficult to understand Chinese Pilots and Controllers. Cambodian, Vietnamese and Korean where also part of the say again phrase. Out of the ordinary was difficult to sell.

It was always exciting to listen at busy Airports like LAX, JFK, LHR or FRA how some certain Pilots-Controller conversations developed stress in the Cockpit and wonder if they get it on the screens.

I remember also about 10 years ago into PEK the clearence to descent to 2.000 m and 3.000 m was diffult to understand back then. Say again made the Man on the Ground angry and his voice was raised and it was even more difficult to get the diffrence out of the Jinglish, the last few years it got better as there are more Airlines from all over the World heading for PUD and PEK and the basic got better but is still far from that was HKG has to offer.

[ATC Watcher]

DREAM LAND :ATC, please advise me about all of your experience operating here in Asia, I've been operating throughout Asia for 7+ years, waiting to be enlightened.

I did not comment of which Country speaks better English in Asia, I commented on 2 remarks you made on 2 different posts : That a Flight school will give level 6 and that you needed minimum level 5.
If you were an A320 pilot as your profile claims you are you will normally know that a Flying school cannot make a licence endorsment, and that the minimum requirement is level 4 not 5.
That's all.
Hence I asumed you might not be who you claim you are. But I might be wrong of course. This is the amazement of these anonymous forums.

[The Dominican]

Well I'm based here and think I am entitled to my own opinion, but I hear and use more "say again over" or "please spell the fix" over Japan's airspace than anywhere else in this neighborhood.
I disagree, I also think that Japan's ATC (although they do have an accent of course) is about the best in S.E. Asia, even Hong Kong has seen its share of incidents due to mishandling of ATC lately, Taipei, Manila, All of China, Seoul in the other hand are a nightmare:ugh:

[Dream Land]

ATC, no problem.

[anito4a]

Does anyone have the actual transcript of the exchange between between crew and tower? (written or audio)

[jacek_flying]

If someone has the date and time of the incident and along with the airport identifier and maybe someone could post the audio. I always manage to find audio on this site.

Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/)

[Silver Spur]

Flew to KIX in 2008, did a Go Around because a chinese carrier on short mistaken an amanded departure clearence for TO clearance. English is probably my third or fourth language, but I personally think "english being not the first language" should not be blamed for such incidents.

Even in Austalia, an australian controller issuing "join downwind report base" clearance is mistaken for a "direct base leg" by an australian RPT, whcih caused me to initiate an evasive left climbing turn at around 600'. Clearly both the pilot and ATC are native english speaking.

[fireflybob]

Even in Austalia, an australian controller issuing "join downwind report base" clearance is mistaken for a "direct base leg" by an australian RPT, whcih caused me to initiate an evasive left climbing turn at around 600'. Clearly both the pilot and ATC are native english speaking.

Psychologists have discovered human put more priority to the last part of a message - in the UK, in the event of, for example, a "descend to" combined with an "anticipate FL XXX by ZZZ" should be stated "Anticipate FL XXX by ZZZ, descend now to Flight Level AAA" - so maybe it's not always a question of mother tongue but how it is stated?

[totempole]

Did a flight to Perth many, many years ago and we had progressive taxi instructions. We passed one intersection coming to a left taxiway just about 10 meters ahead. Instead of telling us to take the " coming immediate left taxiway " the Aussie controller said " take the next left ". We bypassed the immediate left taxiway and took the next " left " only to have the Aussie guy exasperatedly howling that we should have taken the previous left...we protested that he said the next left! He said in Oz the next left means the coming left! Jeez, we all spoke English, but different English.......why do people make life so hard for themselves and others. Just tell us, take the coming left ahead...not too difficult yeah!

[Spitoon]

That a Flight school will give level 6 The problem is that although the licensing authority will enter the licence endorsement, the flight school may well conduct the test/assessment (just as an ANSP does in some cases).

Of course, the licensing authority should oversee the standards being applied by the flight school but this is often the weak part of the system - and not just in one particular region of the world.

[wingz5000]

Gee Totem, glad I'm not controlling for you!! Next is next is next!!!

[fmgc]

Totem,

Your understanding the next is different to somebody else's understanding.

I wonder if any ATC Manuals have the phrase "the coming left" in it.

Rather than encouraging non-standard phraseology why not espouse the use of standard RT, like, "Turn left onto taxiway XX".

Next:

immediately following in time, order, importance, etc.: the next day; the next person in line.

[pilotmike]

Help!

How scary to think we share the same sky as people who think NEXT means 'the 2nd'.

Worse, he expresses exasperation that others can't agree on his own bizarre interpretation of what next means, and then wants to invent totally vague phrases about 'coming' to solve his misunderstanding.

Next is next. The next. What could be clearer? What about the storm that is coming? Is a storm going to be the very next weather you will experience? Or is it reasonable to expect the storm later on at some undefined, vague time in the future, after (possibly many) other weather types?

totempole makes an excellent case for standard phraseology, using real English, not one person's (mis)interpretation of a local dialect of 'English'.

[Self Loading Freight]

"Are you coming up to see me this weekend?"

"No, but I'll come up next weekend."

The 'next' problem constantly bedevils the English me and my Scottish partner, as we clearly have the different interpretations hard-wired; this is after ten years of trying to deal with it. Neither of us can really believe the other doesn't automatically use the same semantics.

But there it is, and telling the other person "But you're wrong, and weird, and should just get it right, because it's logical and everyone does it!" denies the way language works. It is frustrating, because we're all speaking the same language, right? Only we're not, and language is full of very subtle stuff like this.

Standard phraseology is the only answer, and even that won't work all the time; it too is a dialect and one that nobody will use for the majority of their speech. Mistakes will happen, and minimising those is a matter of discipline, training and watching each others' backs.

[Dream Land]

How scary to think we share the same sky as people who think NEXT means 'the 2nd'. My thoughts exactly! :ugh:

[jacquesbernis]

From my own experience around Asia it is the non English, "English" mother tongued ex-pats that are incapable of using standard radio phraseology. Mainly US and Canadians if the truth be told. They seem,as a rule, to be constrained to transmit in language that is characterised by uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and convoluted syntax that is often vague in meaning.
Just my tuppence worth;)

[Piltdown Man]

This crew has done what I've done. I know how we made the mistake and as ever the 'whys' and 'hows' are the important things to learn so we don't have a repetition. In the UK for example, we have the phrase when it is vital for aircraft NOT to move which starts "Speedwell 123, hold position. [message]".

[leo_skye]

As a controller of over 35 years with commercial pilot ratings and working atc in HKG for over 10 years , I'm pretty happy generally with the standard of English from most of the mainland airlines. Sure , sometimes the FO stumbles along with a reply but is usually over-ridden by the Capt. if it's getting too painful. In my experience , some of the Asian airlines form countries where we assume English iscommon and well spoken - like the Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia - are terrible. SIA being one of the worst to grasp most instructions first time. But give me a China Eastern, China Southern , Air China or Hainan ANY DAY to a North American crew ( Canadians slightly better than their southern neighbours). I constantly tell my local HK Chinese trainees, to speak to these airlines as if you are talking to a 5 year old and remember that they are really not "native English" speakers!!!:bored:

[Rollingthunder]

Canadians only slightly better? I've flown hundreds of flight deck jumpseat hours and I assure you the English spoken is excellent. Perhaps your ESL is skewing your perceptions.

[leo_skye]

Yes you're right. The Canadians - particularly those flying for CX are pretty good.......but the "American" airlines United/Continental , Fedex , UPS etc are forever , "say again" , "confirm"....."was that for United 99???" etc etc. In a busy traffic scene we need these extra transmissions like a hole in the head. I agree with the earlier comment about "CB talk" - just how they get on around busy US airports is a mystery! I know the (ATC) radios here and constant RFI make the job tens times harder than it needs to be - but hey, just read back what you think you hear and if it's wrong we'll correct you.:D

[PacWest]

"( Canadians slightly better than their southern neighbours). I constantly tell my local HK Chinese trainees, to speak to these airlines as if you are talking to a 5 year old and remember that they are really not "native English" speakers!!!"

By the 'native' english you are referring to the British 'english' I presume. Yeah, right. Obviously it hasn't come to your attention that the Canadians and Americans find it almost impossible to understand just what the hell some Brits are saying. Matter of fact Canadians and Americans on the whole speak a more grammatically correct english than you 'native' Brits do, i.e., when have you ever heard a Canadian/American say: "I was sat at the table" instead of, "I was sitting at the table" or, "I was stood at the very back .." rather than, " I was standing at the very back.."?

Not to mention the impossibility of figuring out various accents -- Geordie for instance ... beats our back country rednecks by a country mile. So, when next you tell your chinese students about those 5 year olds from the two countries the same chinese give their eye teeth to immigrate to btw and to attend our schools, colleges, universities, et al. try not to be too disdainful of we colonialists who do not speak 'native' english. thank Gawd. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gif

[Dream Land]

but the "American" airlines United/Continental , Fedex , UPS etc are forever , "say again" , "confirm"....."was that for United 99???"Yes I agree, I feel this is due to the fact that they don't get over here very often and never really get acclimated to the procedures here (SE Asia).

[TeachMe]

PacWest,

I love the airline industry and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist / English teacher trainer, so for give me for saying that your comments on grammar and the English language make a tabloid report an an air crash look like fine journalism.

[treykule]

I just don`t know how some get their ICAO Level 4....


You dont? You make the examiner happy, is how it works.

[Dream Land]

and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist

so for give me for saying

tabloid report an an air crashBy teachme.

Are you putting us on? :ugh::ugh:

[The Dominican]

I love the airline industry and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist / English teacher trainer, so for give me for saying that your comments on grammar and the English language make a tabloid report an an air crash look like fine journalism.
That is the single funniest post that I have read on pprune thus far, very well done sir!:D

A linguist.....! God that was funny:)

[Piltdown Man]

Linguist: lin' gw-ist - A person who eats linguine pasta.

But more seriously grammar his litte to do with ATC instructions, especially those in English. And from where I sit, some of the least understandable voices are American, especially those who've been in the job for years. Their quick fire 'yackty-yack' gets far too many "Say agains" from ATC. Some Brits also leave a little to be desired. But I've never heard broad Geordie from ATC. Shame!

Ha'way the lads.

[MikeNYC]

Getting back to the thread I would suggest that most of the young breed of Chinese Pilots have better ICAO RT skills than most of the American Pilots I have worked with (who would not pass a Chinese level 4 ICAO exam). I understand that Americans can communicate the way they want operating domestically but that does not apply when operating internationally.

ICAO level 4 or not, certainly there is a language barrier with pronunciation in this clip: AirChinaKORD.mp3 (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/air-china-'communicating-'-with-atc-(edited)/?action=dlattach;attach=3238) (from 2010 on LiveATC (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/air-china-'communicating-'-with-atc-(edited)/)). While it's at a US airport, it's easy to see how there might be a disconnect between the two parties communicating that even ICAO standard RT would not remedy.

[FR8R H8R]

Anyone who's been to Japan knows that the English is good but the accents can be difficult. However, we're talking about China Eastern. Flying in China is the equivalent of flying in Mars airspace. Controller English is normally pretty decent but crews speak Mandarin for a reason there...because they can't speak English worth a ****.
It's always entertaining to just sit back and listen to the jabber on the Chinese chat frequency. 121.5. :hmm:

[B737NG]

FAA should cut the arrogance and continue training and checking.... Polax52.

I am not sure what you mean by that? I was in alot of wholes on this planet and had seldom problems with Rednecks nore Cannucks ATC. Mostly it was downunder where you had some unpleasent teaching style ATC "exchanges" when we flew SLOP and the complaints where we are one mile off CL whilst under ADS "surveillance". That sounded arrogant to me.

Irish Controllers speak quick as well, if it is too fast then slow them down and you can be assured you get the point. It is diffrent in China, they get angry and then hyper and you get nothing out of it. I see the arrogance when they go the "oriental" way and ignore you. That is also highly unsafe IMHO.

[grimmrad]

SLF here. And then there is this classic...
ATC@JFK - Air China 981 - YouTube

[speedcock]

Did a flight to Perth many, many years ago and we had progressive taxi instructions

My understanding is that progressive taxi instructions are only given if the pilots are lost and specifically request it. Why would YPPH atc give progressive taxi instructions when simple taxi clearances could have been given? The word next can have different connotations depending on the situation...if the instructions of " take the next left " when you are almost so close to the first left can lead to confusion. Those blokes lambasting totem must be the anal retentive know it all ozzie emus with heads in the Gibson desert sands.

[Dream Land]

English is good but the accents can be difficult Spoken like a true linguist! :ugh::ugh: Hillarious, keep the humor coming!

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

Having flown all over Europe, US and now in China I believe the root of the American RT problem is similar to the root of their waning global economic power .

For decades the US has globalised the world of business and trade, but now the world they changed is passing them by and in concentrating on globalising others they have neglected to globalise themselves, their home grown businesses, and have failed to internationalize themselves.

You better believe it, the Chinese pilots ( many trained in the US) are willing to learn and work hard to have more standard ICAO phraseology than the home grown FAA Pilots, who some are cringeworthy at times!

Don't even ask me how poor my Mandarin is .

[Green Guard]

if the instructions of " take the next left " when you are almost so close to the first left can lead to confusion.

I heard many time good instruction like "take the first left",
anything wrong with that one ?
I find it much more helpfull, clearer and quicker then : "take taxyway X"





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMDkwfkXv0&feature=related

[MikeBanahan]

Maybe it's only British English that causes the problem but to me the meaning of 'next' is often ambiguous.

When close to a turn, I and many of my friends and colleagues would consider it to be 'this' turn, the one after it to be the 'next' turn.

In particular, 'next weekend' on a Friday almost certainly means 8 days away - it would be commonplace to have to ask something like "You don't mean tomorrow do you?" to avoid misunderstanding.

It's possibly restricted to the parts of England that I have mostly lived in.

As an aside, in the North Eastern English dialect, 'while' is often understood as 'until'.

What may be apparently concise and unambiguous to one speaker of a language is not necessarily so to another with a different background.

[stepwilk]

But more seriously grammar his little to do with ATC instructions...

He said he's a linguist, not a grammarian. They're totally different. Linguists study foreign languages, which in fact does have a lot to do with ATC instructions.