Aircraft recovery the Australian way.

[NutLoose]

Damn unfortunate incident...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTIHPGtBXg&sns=em

[Lasiorhinus]

Learn the difference between Australia and New Zealand.

But other than that, yes, thats a good, quick, and easy way to recover the aircraft :)
Love the comment at the end "it looks all right..."

[mad_jock]

if that looks alright I would hate to see a :mad: one

Learn the difference between Australia and New Zealand.


I was informed by a kiwi that they only shag female sheep, the Australians aren't fussy.

[IO540]

That will teach him to look after his squat switches.

What was he doing operating anything during takeoff? He should have just been sitting there, full power, waiting to reach Vr.

[Noah Zark.]

He should have just been sitting there, full power, waiting to reach Vr.
That has probably become very apparent to him!

[Big Pistons Forever]

:rolleyes: It did not take long for posters, including one prolific "expert" on all things GA, to have jumped right on this thread implying pilot error.

If said posters had made any effort to educate themselves on the design of the landing gear fitted to 1960's vintage Mooneys they would have learned that the aircraft has a manually actuated landing gear operated by a big bar between the seats. There is no anti-retraction squat switch, just a latch on the handle. If you watch the video it looks like the nose gear bounces back and forth just before everything folds up. If the system is not properly adjusted or the actuating rod ends are worn the gear can unfortunately collapse on its own. This would be more likely on an un paved runway because the aircraft will bounce up and down loading and unloading the gear lock.

The bottom line:

1) Nobody was hurt

2) A bunch of sensible people fixed a simple problem, how to raise the aircraft high enough to drop the gear, in a simple and effective way. It is good to see that the people in the NZ GA scene are still able to use common sense, unlike
some other grossly over regulated juristictions.

3) As an aircraft owner it is important to know the weak/troublesome/problematic areas of your aircraft and direct maintenance actions accordingly.

[IO540]

The gear appears to have collapsed quite evenly. It doesn't look like the nose went first.

Squat switches have a limitation in that if you are departing in a bouncy manner, and operated the retraction mechanism, all it takes is a bump which unloads the landing gear suspension, and the gear will retract.

And as BPF points out, some planes have no squat switches. I did wonder if perhaps that was the case here.

But whichever way, it is a totally crap design if this can happen so easily. £30k? Probably a good chunk of what the whole plane is worth.

including one prolific "expert" on all things GA

Your contributions are always welcome, BPF :ok:

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

The gear appears to have collapsed quite evenly. It doesn't look like the nose went first.


On the contrary, the NLG clearly went first, as BPF said. This was not a retraction, but a downlock failure; the two things are quite distinct.

IO540, several people have pointed out various errors of yours in these forums, yet on you go... I wonder if your behaviour in the cockpit reflects a similar ill-informed arrogance?

[hobbit1983]

Initial post to sniping in 7 replies. A record?

:}

[AdamFrisch]

Initial post to sniping in 7 replies. A record?

Impossible. On PPrune that can happen on first posting;)

I think they called the gear retraction handles on the Mooney the "Johnson-bar" for reasons unknown. Maybe a chap named Johnson designed it or something.

My old crate has a gear retraction that works on the ground, without the hydraulic pump active (design fail no 1). And there are no squat switches. What's worse, the retraction handle is just beside the flap handle and very close to your knee as you snake your way into the seat. So if your knee doesn't do it, you mistaking it for the flap will. Many old Commanders have been dropped on their bellies this way. Thankfully the handle is protected by a locking switch, but one has to be religious about its use. I used to unlock before I lined up on the runway, but now, on the suggestion from an experienced instructor, I'll wait all the way until retraction. Same on approach, gear out, then lock. Might make an emergency retraction or go around take a second longer, but the benefits outweigh the risk of dropping her.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think they called the gear retraction handles on the Mooney the "Johnson-bar" for reasons unknown. Maybe a chap named Johnson designed it or something.
.

I wish I could take credit for the downward slide in this thread but I will sadly admit to being a mere poseur in a race for the distinction of being a true thread destroyer :O

However I might as well drive a stake through the heart of this thread with a totally irrelevant thread hyjack.

The gear handle on the Mooney is a two foot long stout metal bar which lies flat between the two front seats when the gear is retracted and stands straight up under the center of the instrument panel when moved to the extended position.

"Johnson" in this case alludes to its American usage as slang for the male appendage.

[IO540]

I wonder if your behaviour in the cockpit reflects a similar ill-informed arrogance?

Absolutely so :ok:

This was not a retraction, but a downlock failure

When you get the report, would you post the URL?

Many thanks old chap :ok:

[Big Pistons Forever]

10540

Airplane crash altiport de Megève france altiport france landing without landing gear (HD) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/5McECUtM8fw)

Your French is quite good :E

[mad_jock]

What gets me is the picture looks all wrong and the alarm going off with no attempt to find out what it means.

I presume its french you wouldn't learn at school.

[Katamarino]

I think the picture looks wrong because of the 9 degree up-slope on the runway. The horn, however, does seem to be glaringly obvious...how on earth could you miss that...

[IO540]

That TB20 gear up landing has been around the net for a little while.

I am not sure if it is relevant to the Mooney video, because a TB20 has squat switches (they cost £1200 each :) ). It also has two interlocks, either of which gives a warning horn. One is gear up but landing flap selected, and the other is gear up and throttle below a certain position.

Some pilots who are used to big runways land the TB20/21 with takeoff flap and that disables the first gear warning, and then you are left with only one gear warning which is the throttle lever position and that one is fairly easily defeated by landing into a strong headwind.

There is no reason, ever, to land a TB20 with just the takeoff flap.

As a result of the two interlocks, plus the usually fairly obvious difficulty of getting the thing to descend fast enough with the gear up, landing gear up is very difficult in the TB20.

To me, that video is a bit of a mystery, unless the pilot(s) was/were very new on the type and perhaps had no training on the system, which is possible.

[mad_jock]

Even with the slope it looks wrong to me and the power setting is out as well. And there was a red flashing light reflection in the canopy window as well.

And if you watch the recovery with the digger that is pretty special as well with no clue how not to cause even more damage. The Kiwi's definately had the right way of dealing with it.

[Pilot DAR]

various errors of yours in these forums

Well, with so many posts, the occasional error is bound to creep in. I observe the pots to errors ratio to be happily low though...

I wonder if your behaviour in the cockpit reflects a similar ill-informed arrogance?

Nope, IO is very informed in his cockpit.

I am not an expert on Mooney manual undercarriage, I have only flown the electric ones (and had to use manual anyway!). However, I would point out that various mechanical linkage geometry oddities could result in landing gear retracting differently when being pushed up by earth, compared with being pulled up by pilot.

I'm not rushing to any judgement on this one!

[n5296s]

fwiw I think "Johnson bar" is American for what Brits call just a lever. For example the huge reversing lever on steam locomotives was called a Johnson bar. Nothing vulgar about it, rather "Johnson" for the male appendage is a reference to a Johnson bar. Who Johnson was and why he got a bar named after him, I have no idea.

I did once visit a company whose CEO was a grade 1 a$$hole, whose name happened to be Johnson, and who had a big cardboard arrow hanging from the ceiling pointing into his office marked "the big Johnson". That removed all vestige of our already seriously diminished desire to work with with said company.

(I have nothing to say about Mooney gear - the only Mooney I've flown had electric gear with a dinky little wheel-shaped switch).

n5296s

[AdamFrisch]

"Johnson" in this case alludes to its American usage as slang for the male appendage.

There we are then. We are dealing with pilots after all.:{

[Pilot DAR]

Oh... My... God...!

We are dealing with pilots after all

Do you realize that this could be as inflammatory as my blundering into using the term "Fraternity"!

[AdamFrisch]

Do you realize that this could be as inflammatory as my blundering into using the term "Fraternity"!

Only in a pilot's lounge:}

[fujii]

Melvyn Bragg (Baron Bragg) the BBC broadcaster pointed out in the TV series “The Adventure of English,” Johnson is a British term for the male appendage, named after Samuel Johnson (18 September 1709 – 13 December 1784), often referred to as Dr. Johnson, who would "stand up to anything."

[wsmempson]

Early on in my flying career, I met a very vocal frenchman in the bar at High Wycombe who described how at the start of his take-off roll he would always select 'gear up', as the squat switches would always delay the gear retraction until the aircraft had left the ground. Even with my freshly minted PPL in my hand and no time in complex aircraft, I felt quite certain that that sounded a bit too "jimmy-the-hoover" to be true and assumed that all runways will always be perfectly flat - but didn't feel qualified to debate the point.

Irritatingly, I've yet to see his name come up in an AAIB report, thus proving the point - I wonder if he moved to New Zealand?

[bob johns]

gear up landings gear collapse on take off ? theres them wot has and them wot will and them wot will again !! I have been retired from flying for 21 years now after 25 years in the industry and Never scratched an aeroplane in 12843 hours and 7 minutes. the above missive was ,advice to me from A VERY senior wartime ex RAAF officer one Group Captain Brian (Black Jack ) Walker DSO who I had the privelidge to do two round trips SY GV SY (about 25 hr round trip each )in a P166 (Piaggio) I wasnt bloody game to bust an aeroplane with him as a mentor and have to admit it ! H e had 50 years and 10 prangs.

[bob johns]

To add to my recent post ,No one was shooting at me AND I had a Great deal of Luck (considering the wisdom of hindsight)

[FlyingKiwi_73]

that whole TB20 video was wrong,.... from the amazingly shrill noise of the horn through the unbelievable approach pofile,... through to calmly walking around a damaged plane which quite clearly had fuel leaking out of it....


The Raglan crash is a bit sad... nice mooney.. good to see the New Zealand number 8 wire method of chocking the gear employed.:ok:

[IO540]

that whole TB20 video was wrong,.... from the amazingly shrill noise of the horn through the unbelievable approach pofile,... through to calmly walking around a damaged plane which quite clearly had fuel leaking out of it....

It "almost" looks like the engine was approaching TBO, the prop was due for an overhaul, but the owner didn't know that the insurance will pay only for the shock load inspection portion of the cost of a new engine :)

[24Carrot]

Going back to the TB20, I thought the P2 said, just post-impact:
"Je disais peut-etre c'est trop vite, c'est trop ???."

"I was saying it is perhaps too fast, it is too ???."

Then the P1 gets out, has a look and says "Bordel" (brothel), which is a "colloquialism". He might have been referring to the state of the aircraft, or perhaps just the P2's sense of timing.

Would any native French speakers care to correct / fill in the gap(s)?

Edited to add:
The "time-stamp fairy" has put me only one post out of sequence. Not bad...

[frontlefthamster]

...another valuable and expert opinion there...

My brief experience of IO540s left me thinking they were unrefined and unreliable. I see nothing to change my mind.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

It "almost" looks like the engine was approaching TBO, the prop was due for an overhaul, but the owner didn't know that the insurance will pay only for the shock load inspection portion of the cost of a new engine http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


HA! while your re-painting the underside... how about....:ok:

[IO540]

...another valuable and expert opinion there...

Any more wanting to have a go? Now's your chance, ladies.

HA! while your re-painting the underside... how about..

It will take more than paint :)

~£10k for a new 3B prop (if sourced from the USA; more if you need an EASA-1 form)

~£10k for a shock load inspection done by a reputable shop (+/- according to what worms they find, because once you open an engine you can't reassemble it unless it complies with all the requirements... and this engine was probably not a low hour one because the plane is a GT whose mfg stopped ~ 2002 (it's the same one I have) so they will likely go for a full OH ... £20k

~£10k for transport and repairing the underside, including replacement of several antennae (ADF, transponder, DME)

[Tailspin Turtle]

I've flown both the four-seat and single-seat Mooneys with the manual gear. Although I only have a pilot's understanding of the system, I'm pretty sure that the none of the landing gears can be someplace where the gear handle is not. There is no squat switch. The gear is not only raised and lowered by the gear handle, it is locked in both the down and up position by the handle by a latch on the instrument panel (down) and one on the floor (up). The only way that the gear could have retracted as shown is that the handle was not locked in the gear-down position and moved to the gear-up position. My guess is that the pilot intended to execute a very snappy takeoff (always a possibility when a camera is known to be rolling) with a immediate gear retraction after liftoff and therefore started the takeoff roll with the handle unlocked or unlocked it during the takeoff roll. He might have thought that because it takes some effort to pull the handle back and down to raise the gear (if that's confusing, see MANUAL LANDING GEAR (http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Manual%20Gear%20Operation/LANDING_GEAR%29OPERATION.HTM) ) that the gear would not come up on its own. If he was bright enough to realize that the nose gear was going to be trying to retract itself and the main gear during the takeoff roll, he might have been holding the unlocked handle forward. In that event, I don't know whether the nose gear overwhelmed him as the speed increased or he let go of the gear handle for some reason. However, once the nose gear got the handle going aft, the force on it from the main gear as the airplane settled helped complete the process.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I've flown both the four-seat and single-seat Mooneys with the manual gear. Although I only have a pilot's understanding of the system, I'm pretty sure that the none of the landing gears can be someplace where the gear handle is not. There is no squat switch. The gear is not only raised and lowered by the gear handle, it is locked in both the down and up position by the handle by a latch on the instrument panel (down) and one on the floor (up). The only way that the gear could have retracted as shown is that the handle was not locked in the gear-down position and moved to the gear-up position. My guess is that the pilot intended to execute a very snappy takeoff (always a possibility when a camera is known to be rolling) with a immediate gear retraction after liftoff and therefore started the takeoff roll with the handle unlocked or unlocked it during the takeoff roll. He might have thought that because it takes some effort to pull the handle back and down to raise the gear (if that's confusing, see MANUAL LANDING GEAR (http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Manual%20Gear%20Operation/LANDING_GEAR%29OPERATION.HTM) ) that the gear would not come up on its own. If he was bright enough to realize that the nose gear was going to be trying to retract itself and the main gear during the takeoff roll, he might have been holding the unlocked handle forward. In that event, I don't know whether the nose gear overwhelmed him as the speed increased or he let go of the gear handle for some reason. However, once the nose gear got the handle going aft, the force on it from the main gear as the airplane settled helped complete the process.

An equally possible and IMO more likely scenario is that the landing gear down latch simply failed........

[Tailspin Turtle]

An equally possible and IMO more likely scenario is that the landing gear down latch simply failed........

Possibly the down-lock hardware on the instrument panel was worn enough to not hold the gear on a rough runway. However, there is a separate safety catch that has to be released (it helps to push forward on the handle when doing so, which the nose gear is resisting on the takeoff roll) and the engagement of the basic lock, which is a sleeve that slides up and down on the handle, is positive and visible.