Air India Express' landing woes continue.. [Archive]

fdr

17th Nov 2011, 21:30

:uhoh:

So, operational standards have been allowed to erode to such an extent that a 25K wind limit is imposed from any quadrant... :mad:

Aviation is dynamic.

1. If you cannot learn to handle a crosswind, go to a taxi cab, there is less chance of being challenged by crosswinds.

2. If you cannot fly on instruments, refer to 1 above

3. If you cannot fly in the dark, refer to 2

4. If you cannot fly... refer to 1

5. If you cannot land... refer to 4

6. If you cannot work your way out of your own problems, then consider any other vocation

7. If you are unable to accept input from associates, grow/acquire a thicker skin, and also refer to 1

Flying is not hard, but has been pointed out many times, it is intolerant of negligence and incompetence, "...even more than the sea...". perhaps we should consider a change of the selection pool, as IMHO, whatever we are doing industry wide, is not working. Effectively, the current level of incompetence that pervades the industry is equivalent to randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades... it won't hurt immediately, but it is a heightened risk and eventually bites back.

These issues are hardly limited to the current topical airline, or it's state of registration, or to the general region of the sub continent, SEA, N Asia, Fmr USSR; it is evident under JAA/EU operations, including AF... :ugh: UK airlines, and across the water to the "cradle" of ...aviation?... :}

This industry is basically fully compliant to the box ticking of ICAO SARPS etc, and completely out of control.

"We the people hold the following truths to be self evident...
loss of standards bites back. Reliance on "sampling" (A.K.A. AQP) is no safe replacement to training to competency (sorry bean counters, safety does have upfront costs, far lower than long term liabilities consequent to failure to understand this minor point, ask AF...). When the human becomes reliant on automation for basic safety, there is a divide by zero in your future. When you stop listening to the shop floor, management, you are approaching a disconnect from reality; disconnect from reality is an abject failure of Situational Awareness and is the prevalent factor underpinning almost all disasters. (ask NASA ["Challenger" "Columbia"], White Star line ["Titanic"] Катастрофа Чернобыля, BP, Monsanto, Union Carbide, Orica, Teneriffe...)

This is a mature industry, yet we appear to be entering a period of "Deja-vu"; more than ever before we appear to be repeating the same mistakes, but the only variation is that in the past we had mistakes because we didn't know any better, (human/design/materials science failings) now we are having the same mistakes as a cost saving exercise, comfortable in the knowledge that we have ticked the ISO9001, IOSA C/list etc, and filled out the compliance matrix etc...

at the end of the day, hubris rules. :bored:

Damn, need to open a new bottle of Merlot... at least that is a human endeavour that generally maintains standards... :ok:

FBW390

17th Nov 2011, 21:42

Fdr : excellent comments !:D
In India, like many other places, they will NEVER learn ! They understand and see NOTHING!!!:ugh::mad:
DGCA + Company training + hiring standards = nothing professional!!
:oh:

shittykitty

17th Nov 2011, 21:47

thank you come agian!

Akali Dal

17th Nov 2011, 22:00

I too flew on a British airliner some years ago; there was a bounce on touch down on the right main gear then a subsequent bounce on the left followed by a crunching 3 pointer. Do not forget the Thomson landing on a taxiway recently.......do not cast stones too easily wp!

AI express certainly have problems; well, teething problems when airlines proliferate without a good period of consolidation; thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India.

I.R.PIRATE

17th Nov 2011, 23:41

oh yeah, you always have to blame any possible external factors. Such as colonialism, imperialism....

If you can't land a 737 in 25 knots of crosswind, you shouldn't even be in sole control of a bicycle. Especially on a 45 m wide runway.

I saw in a previous thread on this same issue that they were now blaming the journalist for bashing the pilot. Well guys, lets face the truth here - the pilot doesn't need a journalist to bash him - he does so perfectly well on his own accord.

fdr

18th Nov 2011, 01:28

Laserguy: Muscat which is a damn sight nearer than Abu Dhabi
Nope.

SLL-AUH 443NM
SLL-MCT 458NM

FBW: they will NEVER learn ! They understand and see NOTHING

Given a chance, I would imagine that any country, group or company can be competent. India leads the world in many high tech areas, as a consequence of outsourcing. The systems may have issues, from the competency of the DGCA, irrelevance of the regulatory basis, caste system continuing to skew selection or training, belief in privileged status of the Captain, and many other issues, but at the end of the day, the Indians are resourceful. If they wanted to succeed, the corruption that is endemic can be overcome, and the bureaucratic incompetence can be made more irrelevant than it in fact is. Corruption and competency are hardly limited to the sub continent, it is a human condition. Humans are past masters of economy of effort, which a root of these malaises.

IR: the pilot doesn't need a journalist to bash him - he does so perfectly well on his own accord.

The sad thing is that the pilot isn't just bashing himself up, or being bashed up by other parties, he is bashing up the aircraft, crew and passengers.

"Self-conceit may lead to Self-destruction"
Aesop (620BC - 560BC) The Frog and the Ox

I remain impressed by the tolerance that passengers have to the decay of aviation standards, which is being overseen by organisations with vested interests at best, and disinterest at worst. ICAO, IATA, DGCA, CAA, FAA, JAA/EASA, TC, CASA, DGAC et al,: frankly you should be ashamed. The system has all the hall marks of collapse of competency yet no party takes action to preserve the passengers right to life. The passengers take responsibility for the decay as well, all individuals are quite prepared to opt to use the cheapest, nastiest operation that exists, which metaphorically is probably an AN26 operating with falsified Guinean or Swazi registration out of Kinshasa or Ouagadougou with 30% overloads and no maintenance records. If they could get away with it, that would be the standard for MOL, and Joyce.

"The greatest of faults, I should say, is to be conscious of none"
Thomas Carlyle, (1795 - 1881)

stepwilk

18th Nov 2011, 02:29

...equivalent to randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades... it won't hurt immediately, but it is a heightened risk and eventually bites back.

I agree with your sentiments, but randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades will indeed hurt immediately, unless you have enough spare hands to grip all the grenades to hold down the spring-loaded handles.

reverserunlocked

18th Nov 2011, 02:41

Lowly SLF here but is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate? Al Ain closer perhaps?

misd-agin

18th Nov 2011, 02:59

Anyone have the reported wind direction at the time of the incident?

A and C

18th Nov 2011, 06:32

The reasons for the drop in flying standards is that the beanconters have got total control of the industry.

Gretchenfrage

18th Nov 2011, 07:47

In response to fdr's excellent post:

This is today's aviation standard.

Some call it risk management, others simply corruption.

The huge distance of management and regulator to the daily happenings are deliberate.
They take advantage of the fact, that the implicated professionals, at least the few who would still be entitled to wear such a badge, are held ransom with their carrieer by a corrupt system of manufacturer, operator and regulator.
The customer is even more distant and still naively thinks that all the above have one common interest. They actually do have one, not as the customer would think safety, but pure greed.
Because of this distance and the holding hostage of the stick shakers, nothing will happen.
Even the media are of no help here, they are too ignorant of the happenings and anyway, the big selling scoops are bloodstained accidents and not shortcomings.

:mad::ugh:

mikebravo787

18th Nov 2011, 07:59

guys .. pls wait... with your curses..

i am not in AI express, but pls bear in mind there is an enquiry awaited and DGCA is not sleeping...

and europeans commenting about it racially need to hold their guns.. tell us what happened to AF447 from the DFDR and CVR

winds reported were cross 25 gusting 35 kts.. must have had gusty winds on approach.. DFDR will speak about it..

the 737-800W FCOM says 33kts is the demonstrated landing crosswinds.. not a limitation on the FCOM...

and I dont think he did an autoland... if he has... as per DFDR then he needs to face the reality...

media will write anything to sell headlines.. lets give the guys a chance.. to speak ... and be just...

Wirbelsturm

18th Nov 2011, 08:06

Whilst I can understand the need to restrict new Co-Pilots in their crosswind limitations for reasons of inexperience (or to get cheaper insurance :}) I fail to see any reason to restrict the Aircraft Captain from using the full envelope of the aircraft as he/she see's fit unless there is a confidence issue?

Such a restriction surely places doubt on both the competency of the operator (training/standards regeime) and the Captain?

Landing in a 25kt crosswind gusting 35kts is not uncommen, as has been stated above, it might not be pretty and many, like myself, take a slightly 'firmer' landing over trying to 'grease it on' but even up to the 40kt crosswind landing limit (of my a/c type) it is not 'too' challenging.

I see it as a sad indictment of the decline of our industry that such restrictions are placed irrelevant of where the airline operates from. If there is no confidence from the management through the SOP's and adherance to the manufactures limitations then where can the operating crew gain their confidence from?

Quite sad really.

mikebravo787

18th Nov 2011, 08:09

i think it was a very smooth landing... was he at high speeds... DFDR data will only speak the truth... did he correct the drift on time... was it wet... dry? anybody plzz with actual METAR..

Wirbelsturm

18th Nov 2011, 08:28

i think it was a very smooth landing

(Comment edited out due to re-reading the transcript. Admittedly a Jurno's transcript but, hey, it's all we've got). Edit!!!!

After a very rough touchdown, the Boeing (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Boeing) 737 aircraft hurtled down the runway only to jerk sharply as two tyres burst. One wing almost scraped the runway surface and the landing gear was damaged before the aircraft came to a halt near the runway end.

Perhaps though the fact that the Captain painted himself/herself mentally into a corner with regard to landing outside of limits after 2 attempts and an aborted diversion intimates to me that his/her adrenaline was running somewhat high.

Add to that the swing caused by two burst tyres ( which wouldn't have happened on a smooth touchdown unless anti skid were disconnected and full manual braking applied at touch down!) would suggest that the touchdown was anything but smooth.

Just my opinion mind.

Obviously it will all come to light when we see the METAR though! ;)

Piltdown Man

18th Nov 2011, 08:29

Lowly SLF here but is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate? Al Ain closer perhaps?

Diversions to the nearest airport aren't always the most sensible. For example, you might not have a contract with a handling company, their infrastructure might not be up to scratch, it might not be open, there might not be connecting flights etc.

Regarding the .3 tonnes figure I think you have missed the point. I don't fly a 737 but I'm going to guess that it burns about 40 kg/minute. So if you have 4.7t in the tanks (as this one allegedly did) and a 75 minute diversion you'll arrive with about 1.7t which will allow say 800 kgs for two additional approaches AND half at least 30 minutes holding. When you fly a plane for a living you have have a good idea of your endurance and rough idea of aircraft's performance in your head. The figures aren't complicated and most 11 year olds would be able to handle them. Having the rough'n'ready numbers means that when you bugger up reading a table, miss-type a value, incorrectly enter a route (which all of us do), you know that the answer you have just been given is rubbish. Also, if the systems let you down, you can go back to basics and still not be in trouble.

And while we are here talking about numbers, we mustn't forget that there are two people on the flight deck. Both of you should be cross-checking each others' rough workings. Plans for diversions should be really simple and explainable to the other guy. So when it starts getting marginal, both of you are clear about what will happen and will have confidence the numbers you have in front of you.

As for the 25 knot crosswind I'm afraid I can't see the reason unless the DGCA thinks that this either this company's pilots and/or its training are not up to scratch.

PM

Voodoo 3

18th Nov 2011, 08:31

reverseunlocked,

is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate?

You have to arrive at your destination alternate with what is known as final reserve as a minimum. This is enough fuel to fly for 30 minutes at 1500 feet above your destination alternate field in ISA conditions. Therefore you could land with 300 kilos but having that little fuel is too terrifiying to contemplate. :eek:

It does depend on weight but the final reserve in a 738 is around 1000-1300 kilos or so.

Al Ain closer perhaps?

Not really. As mentioned above the distances from SLL to AUH, AAL or MCT is roughly the same give or take a very few miles. AUH probably best as it has two independent runways.

V3

FBW390

18th Nov 2011, 09:05

Fdr,
They have been given a chance to learn ! Many! They had and have TREs and sometimes Fleet chiefs from the Western world: US/Canada, Europe, Australia/NZ! They learnt partially but now that the contracts of most of these high standards guy are ended, it’s back to the old bad habits and very low safety records. Many incidents happen!
Some people learn, some think they already know everything! See the results!

FBW390

10 DME ARC

18th Nov 2011, 09:14

Did he ask the tower to "confirm he had nearly crashed"!!:O

M.Mouse

18th Nov 2011, 09:43

Corruption and competency are hardly limited to the sub continent

True but in India it has been turned into an art form. Listen to the UK's Radio 4 Crossing Continents to hear first hand about what happens to brave people who try to challenge some of that corruption.

fdr

18th Nov 2011, 10:17

@FBW:

Hi. admittedly there are some groups that are much more efficient at entering retrograde habits, but it is hardly the unique character of the sub continent, they are just rather efficient in that regard.

Recall that NASA forgot everything they had learnt from the Apollo 1 fire, and repeated similar systemic failings for Challenger, then after a remarkable report on that disaster, where the administrator specifically states "he gets it...", they backslide into the same behaviour culminating in Columbia. Post Columbia, they "get it again..." Yeah, right.

Now that is mainly in regards to normalizing deviance, as postulated by Diane Vaughan, [the "z" is from the US..] but it also raises the observation by Feynman:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

Roger that.
(I have used this many times, and I don't think it loses its fundamental truth by the fact that it is a fairly universal concept about hubris and the human condition).

Self delusion is a very human character trait. To consider it as being the sole domain on any one group is somewhat myopic, and potentially indicates an extent of delusion existing in the observer - observer bias in a rather off beat form.

Operationally, a system assumes that the problems have been overcome in a very short timespan, the "we get it...". After a very small sampling, we assume that the problem no longer exists, even if the behavioural traits are inherently risky. Risk doesn't equate to an immediate disaster, it just makes one more likely in the time domain. Added to this, the "just bad luck, could happen to anyone..." fatalistic outlook just makes it easy to assume that the system status is a "was always thus" condition.

Failure apparently is an option, and the aviation industry is staring down the barrel of escalation of the rate of catastrophic events, as we have allowed the competency of flight dynamics to be dictated by bean counters, and as a "profession" the majority of us (professional flight crew) have been at best laissez faire as to the decay, or at worst supporting it actively by providing the pavlovian response to the self interest that is inherent in providing DFO's/Chief Pilots and similar post holders charged with maintaining (or upholding? sounds like Dick Turpin...) standards.

"The people in the US as well as the courts of justice see the world as the result of individual failures. They think that if you find the individual responsible, you would solve the problems. But the problem is that if you take the responsible people out, new ones will take the job and social factors will just reproduce the behaviours and replicate the problems. America is a culture where individual achievement is everything. We consider that if you don’t achieve, you are responsible for your own failure. So looking beyond individual responsibility, to seeing what’s going on in the social context, how it works, what are the beliefs, the common culture, the political economy, etc.. is something we sociologists believe explains human behavior. So it is important to target the real root causes when things go wrong, whether we are talking about relationships, shuttle accidents, or terrorist attacks.We want to know why people make the décisions that they do. When it comes to organization mistake, misconduct, or disaster, the blame usually goes to low level workers and middle managers. Blaming them works for the organization. It deflects attention from top administrators who make major décisions about goals and resources that affect organization cultures, and falls upon workers, affected their actions. I call this « the trickle down effect ». To show the connection between élite actions, as they affect organizations and harmful outcomes shifts our understanding of what to do about the dark side of organization. And this at the core of public sociology. [Even if] it happens to be demonstrated « by accidents »."
Vaughan interview, California Management Review, Vol 39, N°2, Winter 1997

Theres a message in there for management, and for the public that entrust their safety in the systems that we have developed so far.

This is not even close to being a rant... There are some topics about ethics in aviation I would dearly love to expand on, but it certainly would become uncomfortable to many organisations.

The Merlot is starting to age, better get back to it.

Fly safe, and look after each other.

There is no contest between ones soft body parts and 500Kt impacts to the earth (5.9742 x 10^24 kgs), barely leaves a dent.... :O

kind regards,

FDR,

fireflybob

18th Nov 2011, 12:46

Always recall a phrase one of the shuttle pilots voiced:-

"You're trained to a much higher standard that you'll ever have to utilise on a routine flight" (or words to that effect)

Landing in a limiting crosswind should be a walk in the park for a well trained, experienced and competent aircraft commander - it's one of the basics.

METAR OOSA 030550Z 34026G37KT 9999 FEW015 BKN025 FEW030CB
BKN080 27/21 Q1005 NOSIG RH68 RMK03=

Runway is 07/25

Syntax

18th Nov 2011, 13:16

The skipper electing to perform an Autoland because he couldn't cope with the conditions is the indicator of his level of flying ability I would suggest.

A new captain? One that came up through the ranks and wasn't allowed to handle the aircraft as an FO?

I second post number three on this thread by Denti.

Lonewolf_50

18th Nov 2011, 14:26

AI express certainly have problems; well, teething problems when airlines proliferate without a good period of consolidation; thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India.

Possibly the stupidest non sequitur I've seen in a while, considering that the discussion at hand is landing a passenger aircraft within its operating limitations, or not, and why that task execution is, or isn't, an expectable level of performance for the fare paying public.

Speed Freak

18th Nov 2011, 14:51

further report in the times of india today

AI Express commander was found deficient during training - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/AI-Express-commander-was-found-deficient-during-training/articleshow/10775550.cms)

Big Pistons Forever

18th Nov 2011, 15:00

It would be fascinating if you could link fares to pilot experience. That is if you want the grey haired Capt with 25 years accident/incident free flying and the ready for command SFO, you had to pay an extra 50 USD.

I bet if there were any practical way to do this the old guys would never get to fly. I think 85 % of the flying public would willingly fly with the bottom of his upgrade class, barely met the minimum standard Captain and his 250 hour P2F FO whose training provider selected him for his ability to pay not his ability to fly; just to save the 50 dollars.

Nick 1

18th Nov 2011, 15:34

Don't blame only the captain. We are suppose to be a team .....where the other was ?

Kalistan

18th Nov 2011, 15:42

Possibly the stupidest non sequitur I've seen in a while, considering that the discussion at hand is landing a passenger aircraft within its operating limitations, or not, and why that task execution is, or isn't, an expectable level of performance for the fare paying public.

Possibly the most anal retentive comment so far. Akali alluded to the teething problems of new LO-CO airlines who have problems with their recruiting and training; hence the problem with this particular individual pilot's handling and management of the flight.

Big U ass of A pilots have problems too, going off the runways at Mid Way and Burbank ; out of the runway at Denver, etc:ugh::{

Namor

18th Nov 2011, 16:14

So called pilots from the western world blasting third world pilots are like grown up adults lambasting kindy school kids for messing up their times tables or spelling. Now there are adults who also have problems with arithmetic and spelling too!

fireflybob

18th Nov 2011, 16:21

Guys there's nothing to be gained by scoring points. Even the best operators in the world can have incidents.

However, what is significant is/are the reason(s) why a particular incident occurs. I don't blame the pilots - it's the "system" (or indeed the lack of it) that allows certain incidents to occur.

FBW390

18th Nov 2011, 16:40

Yes, lack of system;
And: Namor, if an adult has arithmetic and spelling problems, normally, he is not a captain on a B737!:=

Ricky Billy Pearse

18th Nov 2011, 16:57

And: Namor, if an adult has arithmetic and spelling problems, normally, he is not a captain on a B737!

I wouldn't bet on it; I have flown with quite a number of self proclaimed aces who really had problems with arithmetics and spelling! It was disgusting having to bail them out when they are writing their voyage and incident reports.

lederhosen

18th Nov 2011, 17:53

The ATIS indicates weather that should not have been beyond the ability of a normally trained and experienced crew. They certainly made a series of errors including attempting an auto land well outside the normal parameters and getting into a situation where they thought they did not have enough fuel to divert. It is therefore absolutely correct that the company has taken action and is reviewing carefully what happened.

Interesting is what it tells us about the state of play in India and no doubt many other rapidly developing aviation nations. Airbus, Boeing and the bean counters have for years attempted to deskill piloting and have made great progress. The irony is that when a situation slightly outside the norm occurs then pilots are much less able to cope.

We can all understand that India wants to dispense with foreign pilots as do no doubt China and most of the other places where they are employed. This incident demonstrates that they are obviously still required. I am not however holding my breath on anything meaningfully constructive coming out of this. Management will blame the pilots, point out that the last big crash happened with a foreigner at the controls and carry on as before.

Lonewolf_50

18th Nov 2011, 18:02

Kalistan:

Attributing blame to capitalism being foisted upon "Mother India" remains an idiotic comment regarding whether or not an aicrrew can peform up to scratch. Pay close attention.
"... thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India."
My condolences on your envy of America, which shines through in your wise acre second "point" in reply.

Next time, ace, try to read for comprehension.

The laws of physics don't give a flying fart what nationality you are, or I am. They apply to all airframes in a like fashion.

FBW390

18th Nov 2011, 19:04

"point out that the last big crash happened with a foreigner at the controls : "yes, they will always forgot that in this Mangalore accident, the FO made two calls where the captain didn't answer nor correct; so technically he was incapacitated! Then the job of the FO was to take the controls and either correct fast or go-around! He did nothing and they crashed! :ugh::mad:

Slickster

18th Nov 2011, 20:47

Why would anyone even dream of trying to autoland a B737 in those conditions? The system is basically designed for foggy (read still air) conditions.

Never mind being way beyond the autoland system's capabilities (15kt crosswind, 25kt headwind), I find it amazing that any 737 pilot would even attempt an autoland in such weather. If that is what some people do, it is testament to Boeing that there are not more crashes, and an even worse testament to some people's lack of faith in their own abilities as a pilot.

lederhosen

19th Nov 2011, 06:09

Just to be fair there are 737s with fail operational autopilots capable of 25 knot crosswinds. However as this incident demonstrates and we all seem to agree the autoland system is not ideal for this kind of situation. Its misuse and also misunderstanding the fuel situation suggest the crew were out of their depth.

The Boeing flight crew training manual provides a guideline that up to 40 knots steady crosswind for manual landing is allowable subject to company limits. The guidance on gusts is slightly less clear. They do not change the limits but make things more difficult. So basically it is up to your own judgement regarding the gusts and indeed your own experience and state of health, tiredness etc.

Akali Dal

19th Nov 2011, 07:47

Tee Emm

19th Nov 2011, 09:54

Don't blame only the captain. We are suppose to be a team

My understanding was the captain cocked up the crosswind landings. As he has the legal responsibility for the safety of the operation AND he was the handling pilot, then why blame any other crew member just because you are sorry for the captain who was clearly out of his depth.

The so called team concept has nothing to do with one man's failure to meet the demands of his profession. If he was physically frightened of coping with strong crosswinds he should have the balls and conscience to remove himself from flying as a captain until he was re-trained to acceptable standards. A first officer should be capable of conducting crosswind landings without drama up to the crosswind limit. After all he holds the legal appointment of second in command which means he should have the same skills as a captain.

Of course it is well known that many first officers (new graduates from flying schools) are incapable of landing safely in max limit crosswinds. In that case they should not be occupying the position of second in command. Airlines pay lip service in the simulator to these cadets in order to get a cheap bum in the RH seat. But that does not excuse the lack of regular simulator training of these pilots on manoeuvres such as strong crosswinds.

The team concept is vastly overdone to the point where captains are pilloried for not carrying out a vote between "team" members before he makes up his mind what to do.

boogie-nicey

20th Nov 2011, 10:12

"Wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India" and you'd prefer to return India back to the isolationist days of navel gazing socialism? Countries around the world follow, adopt, subscribe to and believe in Capitalism but somehow still maintain standards. The issue of competency and standards has nothing to do with capitalism so in the best traditions of India please stop blaming everyone and everything else for your own shortcomings.

The issues you highlighted about airliners/crews in other countries having 'a bit of a bad day' will be addressed by investigation through the regulatory system. They will then be distributed through to the affected parties so as to maintain a high degree of safety.

Sorry for the rant .....

Fulcrum_vol

20th Nov 2011, 11:43

Would it be fair to dig deep on this one?

Could this be an ugly result that we are seeing, stemming from an unattractive profession reputation? Talented, aspiring youngsters being turned away by reputation and recommendation of parents to pursue safer avenues with much better returns. -> causing significantly poorer selection pools.

There are other jobs with high education costs, no guarantees, long hours and low pay to start, but few of them have such demanding standards whether it's physical/medical, psychological or even from a risk/responsibility point of view. In my opinion.

I've met, perhaps too many pilots in flight training who's philosophy of pursuing the career is that of another trucker/lorry driver. Flight schools need to make money as well. There is a known dynamic of international students in Canada, who's parents encouraged them to pursue just that- a good paying "truck-driver-like" job.

... you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.. true?

totempole

20th Nov 2011, 17:29

The so called team concept has nothing to do with one man's failure to meet the demands of his profession. If he was physically frightened of coping with strong crosswinds he should have the balls and conscience to remove himself from flying as a captain until he was re-trained to acceptable standards. A first officer should be capable of conducting crosswind landings without drama up to the crosswind limit. After all he holds the legal appointment of second in command which means he should have the same skills as a captain.

Of course it is well known that many first officers (new graduates from flying schools) are incapable of landing safely in max limit crosswinds. In that case they should not be occupying the position of second in command. Airlines pay lip service in the simulator to these cadets in order to get a cheap bum in the RH seat. But that does not excuse the lack of regular simulator training of these pilots on manoeuvres such as strong crosswinds

The captain should have gone to an alternate with less crosswinds. I agree that he should ask for retraining at tackling limiting crosswinds.

However, landing at max crosswind limits with gusts is extremely dicey at best. Remember, the airline must set the limits for an average pilot, not aces or test pilots. The landings at max Boeing limits od max demonstrated limits were done by test/certification pilots

jackharr

20th Nov 2011, 17:46

"A new captain? One that came up through the ranks and wasn't allowed to handle the aircraft as an FO?"

I always made damn sure that FOs I worked with handled in ALL weather situations - after all, I would quite likely be their passengers one day.

Jack

fireflybob

21st Nov 2011, 02:07

However, landing at max crosswind limits with gusts is extremely dicey at best.

I beg to disagree - what is dicey is having relatively inexperienced captains who have not been well trained and practised in limit crosswind landings.

Aircraft commanders should be able to land in limiting crosswinds.

Denti

21st Nov 2011, 02:41

Indeed, however if that quoted article is correct the wind was 10kts over the company wind limit. And the captain apparently was not trained to cope with it in line with that limit.

Capt Apache

21st Nov 2011, 04:15

When Italy lost to Slovakia, in one of the biggest upsets in FIFA 2010, their coach Marcello Lipi said,

" I take responsibility,I take full responsibility.If a professional team comes to such an important match with fear in it's heart and terror in it thighs such that it cannot play to its full potential, then it can only be the coach's fault.Only the coach must be held responsible."

I wish the trainers at Air India had a conscience like Lipi's.I don't blame the pilot.Of course I am skeptical of any report on aviation in India.

fmgc

21st Nov 2011, 10:58

Aircraft commanders should be able to land in limiting crosswinds.

There are so many variables that this comment is redundant. Sometimes you could be landing somewhere with a 15kt x-wind and the direction and local topography make it rough as old boots and not possible to land.

I am not the best handling pilot in the world but I do like to think that I am a good Captain.

A Captain should be aware of his/her own limitations and if he/she attempts an approach but can't get in he/she should then consider a diversion, even if everybody else is managing to land. There should be no pressure on him/her to land and no admonishment for diverting.

IT IS THE ONLY WAY IN A SAFETY CULTURE.

fatbus

21st Nov 2011, 11:32

every capt must be able to handle the A/C to the limits or he/she should not be a capt.
This latest with AI just confirms that one should reconsider ever booking a flt with them.

fmgc

21st Nov 2011, 11:45

My point being that there are 30kt x-winds and there are 30kt x-winds, and naer the twain shall meet!

Also if you limit an FO's x-wind limits how is he suddenly able to handle and max x-wind as soon as he is the the LHS?

fireflybob

21st Nov 2011, 12:27

A Captain should be aware of his/her own limitations and if he/she attempts an approach but can't get in he/she should then consider a diversion, even if everybody else is managing to land. There should be no pressure on him/her to land and no admonishment for diverting.

fmgc, I would have no argument with that statement at all. That is a different matter.

And, of course, pilots should operate within the prescribed Company limits.

But what I was trying to say is that I find it very worrying if aircraft commanders are not proficient at landing in limiting crosswinds.

My first airline job was with BOAC as a fledgling Second Officer on the Boeing 707 which was a very demanding aircraft in a crosswind (the -436 had no series yaw damper so take offs and landing were conducted with the yaw damper disengaged.

Part of the Command training was to take an actually aircraft and find somewhere where the crosswind was on limits, fly there and then practice Crosswind take offs and landings until the training captain was happy that you could confidently do it! (This would probably not be approved of in todays culture but often the training was conducted when the crosswind component was a trifle beyond the limit).

A lot of crosswind training seems to be done in the simulator these days but there is nothing quite like doing it on the aircraft.

If the facts as we know them on this incident are correct, the proof is in the pudding because, in extremis, there may be situations when you have to land - ok, yes I agree, a crew should never get into that situation but, in this case, they perceived that they did not have the fuel to divert safely and therefore apparently had no other options.

The landings at max Boeing limits od max demonstrated limits were done by test/certification pilots

That does not mean that the values are necessarily limiting - merely the highest values that were demonstrated during certification of the a/c.

Lonewolf_50

21st Nov 2011, 13:19

Lonewolf_50; wow! First a lame attempt at high sounding " non sequitur ", then some colourful flying fart with another equally lame attempt at some high minded semblance of being " non-racist ". A tad touchy, my dear spin doctor.
I don't understand people who post idiotic things like the bolded part. That's an interesting way for you to attempt name calling, and most dishonest, not to mention wrong. You seem to have me confused with people who wish to turn this discussion into a "West versus Third World" discussion. I am not one such, and I encourage you to not be one such either.

Your efforts at mind reading fail, as does your reading comprehension.

What has bickering about stereotypes to do with this accident? Nothing. Nor does macro level tripe about economic systems, which is what I pointed out as a non sequitur initially: it does not follow. Look it up. If you and I were talking about how to deal with wind shear, a comment on how to making a good bowl of pasta or fried rice applies to wind shear in the terminal phase would also be a non sequitur: it does not follow.

Back to the issue of flying an aircraft within its limitations: it isn't about ecnomic systems, or where you were born. It has to do with flying.

Please note the title of this forum, which has to do with pilots, and flying, professionally. <========== That last word is important to millions of passengers per day.

Back to the event of interest, which seems to be something all pilots have an interest in: landing.

Farrell

21st Nov 2011, 14:26

Three pages of almost pure conjecture with a few solid posts.
All seems ops normal, I suppose.

The article in the Times of India and the follow-ups by the other rags are grossly inaccurate.

Here's what we know for sure (the rest is just gossip).

The aircraft made two unsuccessful attempts to land.
The crew decided to divert to Abu Dhabi. No great drama there. MCT was an option, but Abu Dhabi is what was decided. (Even Thumreit or Marmul would have done in a push!)

After about thirty minutes, the crew decided to return to Salalah and burst three tyres on the landing.

Statements about erroneous inputs into the FMC, landing below minimum reserve, pilot abilities and other comments at this stage are unfounded. We simply do not know what happened for now.

The main question for most out here is: Why the return to Salalah? Until all the details come back, we just have to sit and wait to find out, if ever, what happened.

Farrell

captjns

21st Nov 2011, 14:51

Yeah... just because an unqualified captain with training difficulties, who could not first of all manage the situation, changing his decisions many times placed his passengers and crew in danger may be an acceptable level of performance amongst his peers. We can all be thankful that there was no smoking hole left in the desert because of this fiasco. IMHO nepotism got him on the property and pushed through training despite his poor performance during training.

The captain is part of the problem. The training and checking system not limited to AI is also the problem.

Isn’t it a shame that the “good old boys” network is alive and well among every airline on the planet.

The man does not belong in the cockpit. I'm sure he would be an OK guy to down a King Fisher, er pardon the pun, at the pub.

Lonewolf_50

21st Nov 2011, 15:15

captjns:

Do you know the Captain personally? :confused:

Question for risk management considerations on the airline's reported decision for restricting the flight envelope:

What effect on their operating costs does restricting cross wind landings to 25 kts have on the number of go arounds, or diversions (with attendant fuel costs and how to get pax to original destination costs)?

Put another way, what sort of data would you look at to estimate the number of flying days, and nights, which show that, at the airports this airline flies into, they can expect a crosswind component of 25 knots or higher? Airports the world over vary in the number of runways and varied orientation available, with designs typically chosen for the prevailing winds and terrain obstacles considered. For single strip runways, your options upon arrival aren't quite as nice as at multiple strip runways (with different orientations).

Let us presume that the analysts in the company arrived at "4.5% (or some other number) of our arrivals are likely to, based on five year historical trends, be made with cross wind components of 25 knots or higher."

Does their decision on risk, which involves runways of varying quality, perhaps avoid a big crash at the cost of a number of go arounds, diversions, or time (and thus fuel and schedule) spent negotiating with various ATC's for a different runway?

I'd be interested to see what went into that decision matrix when they decided to impose the crosswind restriction.

captjns

21st Nov 2011, 17:37

I don't need facts or figures to determine one's ineptitude when an auto land is attempted beyond the AOM's limitation.

There is no justification of getting so low on fuel... Even if there was an erroneous number in the FMC. It is apparent this individual lacks the skills to perform manual computations.

The chap is a demonstration of how the system failed the pilot, his crew, and passengers.

I still stand by my statement that the public and his fellow crew members are safer with this chap on the ground.

Lonewolf_50

21st Nov 2011, 17:45

captjns: Thanks, I re-read a previous post and better understand your point.

The system is basically designed for foggy (read still air) conditions. Never mind being way beyond the autoland system's capabilities (15kt crosswind, 25kt headwind), I find it amazing that any 737 pilot would even attempt an autoland in such weather.
If that is what some people do, it is testament to Boeing that there are not more crashes, and an even worse testament to some people's lack of faith in their own abilities as a pilot.

Denti

21st Nov 2011, 17:51

The limits for autoland depend on which system is installed, we have 25kts cross for normal autolands and 20kts for OEI autoland.

JammedStab

21st Nov 2011, 20:58

The superheros and gifts to aviation from god sure like to come out on the crosswind discussions and about their abilities to handle them, no doubt with ease.

I've never had a situation come up with anything more than 30 knots at 90 degrees and don't have much interest in much more even though some of these machines are apparently demonstrated up to 38 knots.

Of course where were these demonstrations made. At a place with hills just upwind or your typical city architecture nearby. More likely in a flat remote location without a huge amount of mechanical turbulence.

I have a lot more respect for the types that decide not to land in the giant crosswinds rather than scare the heck out of the passengers and set off windhear alerts just so they can stroke their ego and convince themeselves again about how great they are.

Of course the incident on this thread is obviously a different story.

fmgc

21st Nov 2011, 21:08

JammedStab

Here here, thank you!!

captjns

21st Nov 2011, 22:11

Yes... I agree with those who know their own limitations. What bothers me however, is how those who decide to go into business for themselves, and put their passengers and fellow crewmembers at risk. And why... because they have to complete their bloody mission.

Case in point... AA1420 into Little Rock AR. A sky God from the USAF who thought he could combat all odds. As all will remember that Dick Head's decision to continue the approach in to a TSRA was not the wisest choice.

Yes... there are schmucks abound in all walks of life from 6 of the 7 continents on the planet.

Perhaps if they put their charges needs first rathet than their egos, there would be less accidents to report... hmmm???

masalama

22nd Nov 2011, 12:24

AIE's woes need to be explored further. Why do Indian captains (B737 typed and experienced) see AIE as their last choice of employment preference ? How can a govt. institution not manage to attract experienced folks from within the country and then have to resort to short-cuts to crew the aircraft???

Instead of looking at a captain not exercising good judgement on a limiting crosswind landing, one needs to dig deeper into AIE and see the trend .... make it a good place to work and you will get the experience , sadly that is not the case here.....

masalama.

Lonewolf_50

22nd Nov 2011, 14:21

captjns: in only penguins could fly, we might have a solution to the schmuck problem. :}

fmgc

22nd Nov 2011, 14:32

Tankengine

22nd Nov 2011, 23:32

Countries and companies aside -
It is every Captain's job to be able to safely handle their aircraft to the certified enviromental limits of the aircraft.:ugh:

No ifs, no buts.:rolleyes:

Their training should ensure this.:=

captjns

23rd Nov 2011, 01:00

Tankengine says..

Their training should ensure this.:=

The training and checking system established within carriers round the world needs to fixed.

The good old by networks is still alive and kicking by allowing those week. Over my 36 years, I’ve seen arrogant no-talent bums paired up with special check airmen in order to ensure a passing event.

I’ve also seen where week performers were pushed through the system with the thought “This guy will improve as time goes by”… which leads to the good old by network.

This problem is not limited to India.

jpsingh

23rd Nov 2011, 09:32

Very patriotic comments but highly unprofessional ! No one imposes anything on anyone..Its a choice the "Mother India " has exercised with great deal of failure!! Lack of training and saving money has compromised training standards.Every Captain must be able to demonstrate handling the Aeroplane to its limits on the Simulator and that includes Xwinds/windshear/CATII etc .

captjns

23rd Nov 2011, 10:41

jpsingh avers

Very patriotic comments but highly unprofessional!

It is naïve to think that all pilots are able to perform to standard, as evinced by the captain in question.

Every Captain must be able to demonstrate handling the Aeroplane to its limits on the Simulator and that includes Xwinds/windshear/CATII etc

The captain has severe issues ranging from decision skills, situational awareness, piloting skills, and ignorant of aircraft limitations, past poor performance during training. The captain involved in this incident is a prime example of a weak link being pushed through the system do to nepotism, good old by network, or corruption.

Again, this problem is prevalent in carriers beyond the Indian Borders.

Ace Springbok

23rd Nov 2011, 16:34

No business landing crosswinds of 65kts; wow, without option? Not if you had been exercising due diligence in monitoring weather at your destinations and all possible alternates, shouldn't be reading the newspapers enroute:=

Prober

23rd Nov 2011, 22:51

Prober

24th Nov 2011, 10:04

There used to be a flight safety notice - "Don't assume - Check!" The same should apply here - you don't know even a quarter of the story, and I was only one of all those flying that morning who were in the same position, when even a parked 747 was blown sideways into the pier.
Prober

de facto

24th Nov 2011, 10:11

Prober,
Your alternate was also out of the wind limitation of your airline?

sf25

24th Nov 2011, 10:27

What would you do if you were faced with, say, 65kts cross - without any option? I can assure you that when that happens, and you have no choice, you do not have much time to consider whether or not you are a 'super hero'. You were obviously not flying into LHR on the morning of 16 Oct 87. I did not have a jammed stab, but I did have a "Rudder Ratio" on short finals. Super hero did not come into it, but professionalism did (and ATIS was not much help).
Prober

... and i always thought it´s professionalism which enables You to avoid a situation which is out of the aircrafts/ airlines limits. ... in this case by chosing the alternate airport ....

captjns

24th Nov 2011, 12:14

It’s sad that many dispatchers do not have the wherewithal to analyze wind conditions at canned alternates. They merely look at ceiling and visibility. On occasion there is the sharp dispatcher who reviews NOTAMS to ensure all lighting aids are up and running when conducting low visibility operations at both primary and alternate airports.

Pilots must be cognizant of these conditions where dispatchers are lacking. Wx and NOTAMS are equally important if enroute diversion is required. Not a good time to paint yourself into a corner.

JammedStab

24th Nov 2011, 13:16

What an arrogant statement in #63 by JammedStab. Maybe you have not encountered anything more than 30kts during your career. Must have had a pretty sheltered life! Also, you SHOULD have some interest in such a situation. What would you do if you were faced with, say, 65kts cross - without any option? I can assure you that when that happens, and you have no choice, you do not have much time to consider whether or not you are a 'super hero'. You were obviously not flying into LHR on the morning of 16 Oct 87. I did not have a jammed stab, but I did have a "Rudder Ratio" on short finals. Super hero did not come into it, but professionalism did (and ATIS was not much help).
Prober

a) I'm not sure why you would start talking about my life in this discussion.
b) I have more than once decided not to land somewhere due to wind strngth and direction.
c) I have never encountered a situation where the forecast wind was anywhere near 65 knots, but if I did, I would make sure that I had good alternates a reasonable distance away from 65 knots in any direction relative to the runway. A good idea even if it is only forecast at 30 knots even if alternate limits are not listed as being based on winds.
d) I have no idea what happened in Heathrow on 16 Oct 87, but apparently you think very highly of yourself for whatever you did after running out of options. 65 knots crosswind I suppose and no doubt at 90 degrees.
e) There is another post about not knowing even a quarter of what happened. Well tell us then instead of little bits and bites. Give us the details of route, city pair, A/C type, fuel, forecasts, enroute weather checks made, weather at other locations, when you realized that you were out of options etc. And finally, your landing and rollout technique in case it happens to us.

Slickster

24th Nov 2011, 20:05

The limits for autoland depend on which system is installed, we have 25kts cross for normal autolands and 20kts for OEI autoland.

Fair enough. I didn't know any 737 was capable of it, and would would rather watch a 737 attempting a 25kt crosswind autoland from the ground, to be honest.

One of the reasons for the limitations of my CAT3A 737 is the rudder. The autopilot does not use it, and just lands with the drift on. Having seen how the automatics cope on windy days, I'm not sure all huffing and puffing the autoflight system does (pitch power couple/autothrust/trim), can solely be laid at the feet of some box of tricks in the E and E bay.

For the record, my airline's limit for a manual landing on the 737 is 40kts, and I have had to do it, 3 times in a day sometimes. No heroics, but I wouldn't call it easy either. It's just what is expected of me, by my employers, and passengers, on occasion. Call me a control freak, but I'm not going to sit and watch the autopilot make a hash of it; the limits for autoland are always more limiting in the perf manual than for a man land, except for poor visibility, for which it was designed.

Denti

25th Nov 2011, 04:27

Fair enough. I didn't know any 737 was capable of it, and would would rather watch a 737 attempting a 25kt crosswind autoland from the ground, to be honest.

You need the fail operational (CAT IIIb) auto flight system for that, which actually has a rudder actuator and does a very good job in crosswind situations (or OEI for that matter).

However there is of course the 40 kts crosswind limit for manual landings on wet and dry runways, narrow runway operation included, which we have to be able to cope with as well. There is the need to train it though, and apparently Air India Express worked its way around it by introducing a blanked 25 kts wind limit for its operation which precludes any special crosswind training.

Tee Emm

25th Nov 2011, 09:53

India Express worked its way around it by introducing a blanked 25 kts wind limit for its operation which precludes any special crosswind training.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6825792) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6825792&noquote=1)

Does that mean the pilots just plonk it on the runway sideways without attempting to remove drift because they do not train for crosswind landings.?:eek:

captjns

25th Nov 2011, 12:31

Perhaps the Training Captains themselves need to demonstrate they are able to accomplish crosswind landings with winds up to the limits contained in their FCOM. Not in the simulator either and not with passengers so they are not placed in danger.

Other than in monsood conditions, it is hard to find crosswind conditions approaching the AIE imposed limits. Even with monsoon conditions, I've never experienced a crosswind component of more than 15 to 20 knots.

JammedStab

25th Nov 2011, 14:28

Careful, I was accused of living a sheltered life by a so-called professional for having never landed with more than 30 knots crosswind component.:rolleyes:

fl380

26th Nov 2011, 04:59

The AIE management is now negotiating to get some foreign pilots from a small Europa country whose background is not yet clear, to teach us how we should fly. On the to of that, in that country there are so many Training organisations where pilots with least experience become instructors with one sim session only and without any given training to the student pilots. How long will our DGCA tolerate such a mass and how long will they accept foreign pilots with absolutely no experience in training. Indian DGCA should stop that and should train our instructor for us.

captjns

26th Nov 2011, 11:08

Ricfly744 lived to fly another day:ok:. Knowing one's limitations and acting accordingly is a sign of maturity an professionalism.

PT6A

26th Nov 2011, 12:32

I had heard they were looking at Lufthansa Consulting..... They sure could teach your boys a thing or two!

If it is the case that they are getting LH consulting... Then use the time they are with you to learn someting....

Not to continue in the mess that is India

Ps. I think (hope) it is more than a case of teaching you to fly... There needs to a HUGE change of culture within Air India and Indian aviation as a whole. Until this happens Indian skys will continue to be unsafe.

captjns

26th Nov 2011, 12:59

FL380 is beating his chest from the highest mountain decreeing...

How long will our DGCA tolerate such a mass and how long will they accept foreign pilots with absolutely no experience in training. Indian DGCA should stop that and should train our instructor for us.

Fl380, your assertion about expats training in India without training experience is malicious, unfounded, and without merit. Before you post such an accusation, you had better have hard written and undisputed written proof, not hearsay fl380, but hard written undisputed proof. With an unfounded, unsubstantiated accusation such as yours, you, fl380, are living proof that there are more a$$es than horses to go around:uhoh:.

Fl380… I do agree with, and in the modern words of William Shakespeare, “An endorsement for one to train or check, an instructor nor check airman does not make”. That said there are some purporting to impart knowledge should not be doing so.

From the look at a previous post, AIE recognizes there is a deficiency in performance lies amongst some line pilots, and training staff too with aircraft handling in less than ideal conditions. Rather than rapping AIE, perhaps they deserve a bit of encouragement for their recognition with this problem.

If you look at the post above, perhaps AIE is being proactive to contract training captains who are experienced in the areas of adverse weather operations.

Anyway fl380, Tell this forum fl380, who within the DGCA do you deem qualified to instruct AIE pilots? And remember, you need to build your credibility by presenting the facts, and not supposition.

fireflybob

26th Nov 2011, 13:14

Politically it probably wouldn't be possible but why not arrange for a temporary exchange of pilots?

Send some of the local training captains and new first officers to Europe to fly with a well organised and proficient airline.

At the same time send some European training pilots to fly in India.

Am just brainstorming and no doubt others would come up with objections but until the training pilots are top notch (and I am not saying some of them are not) it's doubtful you will see an improvement in the overall standard.

captjns

26th Nov 2011, 14:39

Good intention and good idea. However crews would return from a much different environment and disciplines, back to an airline culture which crews have been ensconced for many years.

It appears, albeit unsubstantiated, AIE recognizes there may be deficiencies within their training and checking procedures. From a previous thread, and job postings on various job websites, AIE is seeking contract TRIs, TREs, and LTCs. This could be due to current crews moving into the 777 or 787 or other equipment, or they have a desire to improve the quality of their crews.

PT6A

26th Nov 2011, 15:52

I now see that overseas airlines may invest in India without restrictions like before....

Maybe we will see some money and experts flow into the Indian aviation sector?

IGO had a lot of outside help when they set up shop...

ricfly744

26th Nov 2011, 17:34

I once aborted a landing (in a B733) from about 20 ft AGL, in similar crosswind due to turbulence caused by a hill near by. I just could not be certain that I would not get another down drift after cutting back thrust to flare, and was considering the possibility of an uncontrolled bounced landing, if that happened. It was not nice. Diverted and returned 2h later after wind eased.

In another similar situation, this time in a B757, cross wind/gust was within limits, however: VOR/NIGHT/BLACK HOLE/ RAIN/Limit Cross wind +GUST/Short/downhill (RWY 32, Foz do Iguaçu - Brazil), at about 100' I just felt I was not confident enough to continue, and aborted. Second try, wind shear, another G/A. The FO got so nervous that he just could not respond to my instructions and set the CDU to the diversion airport. He was emotionally incapacitated. After landing in the alternate, we still had many hours duty time to return after improvements, but the FO said he was not feeling fit to continue. Duty pilot was called and did not push for the continuation, supporting the decision to cancel the flight, and send about 200 PAX to hotel.

In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.

Should a PIC force a landing even in conditions considered within operational limits if he does not feel comfortable? Looking at the ATIS/METAR at the moment, would suggest I was a failure as a pilot or PIC, as there was no reason to divert. Some times we just don't feel comfortable/confident, and the limitation may not be the wind or any other but our own, and that must also be respected. I have dared many times, been to the limit other many times, had done it again and again, but those 2 times, I just felt I couldn't do it.

320p

26th Nov 2011, 18:18

Just to get some more information in to reduce the extent of negative feedback,there was no tyre burst.Two tyres deflated after landing and this aircraft was flown back to India after one day apparently by the same crew.The media in India,particularly the "The Times of India"can go disgustingly overboard while reporting aviation news.
The pilot must have been in a tight corner after two Go arounds but let us wait for the final report.

no sponsor

26th Nov 2011, 18:34

Ricfly,

The answer is no. If its beyond your own limits, then divert. A call to a training captain/department would be the right move after some reflection. I remember landing as a pnf and afterwards the captain saying that was the limit of his ability, and if had got any worse, he would have thrown it away.

There's nothing wrong with what you did at all. Sounds like CRM was alive and well in the cockpit which is no bad thing. :ok:

HAWK21M

27th Nov 2011, 07:46

Indian Airlines operated B732s & NOT B731s

On the Topic.....Dont believe Everything you read in the Media....Await the Official report to Judge.

Denti

27th Nov 2011, 08:57

I had heard they were looking at Lufthansa Consulting.....

Interesting, they already tried Lufthansa Flight Training for initial type ratings, but stopped that very very soon because the pass rate was way too low. Quite a high drop out rate, not because of academic knowledge, that was pretty much impeccable...

PT6A

27th Nov 2011, 11:00

Denti,

Maybe it is part of a set of measures to try and get them through IOSA? Which they have not been able to pass...

I agree most Indian pilots know the manuals word for word... But can they apply this and fly the line day in day out...... No.

320p

27th Nov 2011, 14:30

PT6A,
To be so definitive and say "most Indian" would be a harsh generalisation and immature statement to make.Does it mean that you have flown or had an experience with most of them ?

cyrilroy21

27th Nov 2011, 14:52

I agree most Indian pilots know the manuals word for word... But can they apply this and fly the line day in day out...... No.

This is not something that is exclusive to Indian Aviation alone . This is how education is taught in India . All theory and no practical .

There was once a debate on this on how aviation education in India was heavily focused only on the theoretical aspects only and one of the graduates from the
" Premier Institutes of Flight Training " in India claimed that how much knowledge you had was what counted and not how you can fly

According to them planes today fly themselves and even a monkey can be taught how to fly a plane . It was how much theoretical knowledge you had that counts

Thats fact that you need maths and physics at the +2 level ( thats your last two years of school before you go to university ) in order to apply for an Indian DGCA CPL is evidence of this nature

PT6A

27th Nov 2011, 17:47

Ok most Indian students that attended a well respected TRTO knew everything in the manauls but could not put it into practice, and as such were sent back to the client airline as unsuitable.

I think my view is shared by pretty much any expat who has worked in India.. Nice individuals but for one reason or another do not have the correct skills.

PT6A

fdr

27th Nov 2011, 19:55

rf744:
In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.

RF, that is applied risk management. The limitations are generally assessed as isolated conditions, (other than the belatedly introduced wet/x-wind condition). The PIC is charged with determining the risk at any moment, and ensuring that it is appropriately managed. It may be that the sum of multiple limiting near conditions are in the aggregate unacceptable. That is just good risk awareness and the decision to reject is good management.

The question with AIE IMHO is that the limit that is imposed by the company reflects either the companies recognition of deficiencies, or it raises undue stress on the decision making. A cross wind in isolation is merely a handling coordination exercise, where there is no shear present.

bakutteh

27th Nov 2011, 20:26

In these 2 events, destination was always within operational limits. I still feel I failed as a pilot, as I could not land in acceptable conditions, but I would do it again as I did.

ricfly744, on paper the conditions were acceptable but you were the person of the day. You assessed the situation and the momentary transient conditions dictated your wise actions. I call that superb situational risk management...I will fly with you anyday:ok::D

320p

28th Nov 2011, 08:35

PT6A,
Once again a broad generalised statement without any data to back it up.In my 26 years of experience have never thought of making such statements in a professional forum based on my subjective assessment.

PT6A

28th Nov 2011, 10:59

320.... Have you flown in India?

captjns

28th Nov 2011, 11:58

A key problem in the continued development of any pilot, be they from the US, Eruoland, Oz, Asia or Indian, in commercial airline operations is directly proportionate to the captains the fly with. If their captains give them the opportunity to hand fly, as well as impart knowledge to them, their levels of competency will continue to improve. I offer my F/Os to hand fly the jet as long as they want. My F/Os get 3 of the 4 sectors every day regardless. If the F/O want the landing, the A/P is disconnected at 15,000’ for the remainder of the flight... Automatics on or off, their option. At least on N/P approach is hand flown during one of their 3 sectors. It’s great to see the smiles on their faces and a sense of accomplishment and pride.

You can’t expect a newbie to land on the centerline within 500’ of the TDZ when they are released to the line. Again, it’s up to the mentor in the left seat to help them… not spoon feed, but help them along.

I hope these captains in training help their future F/Os.

CharlieVictorSierra

28th Nov 2011, 13:10

PT6A

28th Nov 2011, 13:23

I think a big problem at play in the airlines of India is this... They are using the term cadet pilots..

But they are using this term when refering to people who have self funded their training, type rating etc.

The airline has taken on a LOT of low hours pilots from an unknow system of training that may of been conducted across the globe and a wide variety of training standards.

The end product in no way compares to a cadet pilot that is produced by the likes of BA or Lufthansa, where a young person is selected and trained by the airline to the airlines own system and standards (cost no object, to the individual at least)

This person will then go on to be a very good new first officer within his or her company...

The way things are being conducted in India in such vast numbers is a serious safety risk...

Captjns is very correct that every captain on everyflight should be teaching his/her first officer new skills and helping them along.

But this is not the place for well.. primary flight training to be taking place.

I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time.. Or they should not be operating a line flight with a line captain.

PT6A

320p

28th Nov 2011, 15:34

Yes ,I have for many years!The issue here was that you started with "Indian Pilots" and then moved to TRTO & cadets pilots.All airlines may not manage their Trg as well as BA and Lufthansa do.However, the way most of these young F/O would progress has been well said by Captjns.

ManaAdaSystem

28th Nov 2011, 23:15

Salalah can be a b*tch with the wind from the wrong direction.

Yes, we should all be able to land our aircraft at the max wind limit, problem is, that limit is not the same from airport to airport.
To all the aces out there, how much wind from the north would you be comfortable with if you fly into SLL? Can you say with confidence that you would be able to land in a 35-40 kt crosswind from the right on RWY 25?

No? Possibly? Never been there?

What about LHR 27R? 35-40 kts from the south?

Green Guard

29th Nov 2011, 02:37

I would say a FO should be able to land on centerline and within the touchdown zone every single time..

Every single time ?
Can you guaranty that you can do that yourself "every single time" ?

Piltdown Man

29th Nov 2011, 07:49

Can you guaranty that you can do that yourself "every single time" ?

No, but if it looks like I'm not going to I'll go around and have another go. I have to be close on 10,000 landings now and so far have about 15 go arounds to my name. But what's more important is that I'll NEVER get any negative remarks or curious questions from my company for doing so. However, I'd get a few for continuing, especially from the person sitting next to me.

PM

PT6A

29th Nov 2011, 11:46

Exactly Piltdown....

Infact if I did land outside the touchdown zone it would place a big flag on the FDM....

Im supprised that Captjns also makes out that this happens quite often as I thought India had a 100% FDM policy.. Which would mean that in theory at least a lot of calls to explain why this was allowed...

Something that further complicates things:-

Lets take for example Jet Airways 737 fleet, because of politics within their pilots union SWIP, expats are NOT allowed to be TRI/E.

Many of the First Officers are not released yet they undertake line flights with a line Captain (not released because they are not legally allowed to takeoff and land) now say there was an incident what would your home authority say about this? You should not of been flying with them anyway! Remember that the DGCA cant authorise you to do something that is outside of the licence that they validated.

Many of the examples that have been used in this thread ammount to line training, so this becomes line training being given by a line Captain to an unreleased First Officer on what is supposed to be a regular flight....

At the end of the day its not on....

I know many of the expats in question hold TRI/E status at home, but thats not the issue because of the SWIP situation they are doing something that is not properly sanctioned by the airline... A few have had their fingers burnt because of this.

PT6A