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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

Old 17th Nov 2011, 15:26
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Air India Express' landing woes continue..

An Air India Express pilot has been grounded after this near tragic incident

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Old 17th Nov 2011, 16:11
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Would have thought an alternate could possibly have been Muscat which is a damn sight nearer than Abu Dhabi.
However only a SLF.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 16:36
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A blanket 25 kts wind limit for landing? That must be the absolutely lowest i have ever heard for a 737. They must have absolutely crap training and know it to distrust their own pilots that much. Although after reading that article probably not without cause.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 17:29
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A number of years ago I took an Indian Airlines flight from Bombay to Poona (as they were then called). The a/c was a very old 737-100. In nearly perfect conditions -no appreciable crosswind - the pilot managed to bounce the plane twice on landing.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 17:43
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Originally Posted by http://www.ourairports.com/airports/OOSA/pilot-info.html
Runways at Salalah Airport

10,965 x 148 ft (3,342 x 45 m) paved lighted
45m wide runway - gusting 35 knots shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 21:32
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"45m wide runway - gusting 35 knots shouldn't be a problem." Correct, for any Captain with anything like average flying skills.
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 22:30
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race to the bottom

So, operational standards have been allowed to erode to such an extent that a 25K wind limit is imposed from any quadrant...

Aviation is dynamic.

1. If you cannot learn to handle a crosswind, go to a taxi cab, there is less chance of being challenged by crosswinds.

2. If you cannot fly on instruments, refer to 1 above

3. If you cannot fly in the dark, refer to 2

4. If you cannot fly... refer to 1

5. If you cannot land... refer to 4

6. If you cannot work your way out of your own problems, then consider any other vocation

7. If you are unable to accept input from associates, grow/acquire a thicker skin, and also refer to 1

Flying is not hard, but has been pointed out many times, it is intolerant of negligence and incompetence, "...even more than the sea...". perhaps we should consider a change of the selection pool, as IMHO, whatever we are doing industry wide, is not working. Effectively, the current level of incompetence that pervades the industry is equivalent to randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades... it won't hurt immediately, but it is a heightened risk and eventually bites back.

These issues are hardly limited to the current topical airline, or it's state of registration, or to the general region of the sub continent, SEA, N Asia, Fmr USSR; it is evident under JAA/EU operations, including AF... UK airlines, and across the water to the "cradle" of ...aviation?...

This industry is basically fully compliant to the box ticking of ICAO SARPS etc, and completely out of control.

"We the people hold the following truths to be self evident...
loss of standards bites back. Reliance on "sampling" (A.K.A. AQP) is no safe replacement to training to competency (sorry bean counters, safety does have upfront costs, far lower than long term liabilities consequent to failure to understand this minor point, ask AF...). When the human becomes reliant on automation for basic safety, there is a divide by zero in your future. When you stop listening to the shop floor, management, you are approaching a disconnect from reality; disconnect from reality is an abject failure of Situational Awareness and is the prevalent factor underpinning almost all disasters. (ask NASA ["Challenger" "Columbia"], White Star line ["Titanic"] Катастрофа Чернобыля, BP, Monsanto, Union Carbide, Orica, Teneriffe...)

This is a mature industry, yet we appear to be entering a period of "Deja-vu"; more than ever before we appear to be repeating the same mistakes, but the only variation is that in the past we had mistakes because we didn't know any better, (human/design/materials science failings) now we are having the same mistakes as a cost saving exercise, comfortable in the knowledge that we have ticked the ISO9001, IOSA C/list etc, and filled out the compliance matrix etc...

at the end of the day, hubris rules.

Damn, need to open a new bottle of Merlot... at least that is a human endeavour that generally maintains standards...
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 22:42
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Fdr : excellent comments !
In India, like many other places, they will NEVER learn ! They understand and see NOTHING!!!
DGCA + Company training + hiring standards = nothing professional!!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 22:47
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thank you come agian!
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Old 17th Nov 2011, 23:00
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I too flew on a British airliner some years ago; there was a bounce on touch down on the right main gear then a subsequent bounce on the left followed by a crunching 3 pointer. Do not forget the Thomson landing on a taxiway recently.......do not cast stones too easily wp!

AI express certainly have problems; well, teething problems when airlines proliferate without a good period of consolidation; thanks to wanton copy of the capitalist model foisted upon the Mother India.

Last edited by Akali Dal; 17th Nov 2011 at 23:48.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 00:41
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oh yeah, you always have to blame any possible external factors. Such as colonialism, imperialism....

If you can't land a 737 in 25 knots of crosswind, you shouldn't even be in sole control of a bicycle. Especially on a 45 m wide runway.

I saw in a previous thread on this same issue that they were now blaming the journalist for bashing the pilot. Well guys, lets face the truth here - the pilot doesn't need a journalist to bash him - he does so perfectly well on his own accord.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 02:28
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Muscat which is a damn sight nearer than Abu Dhabi


they will NEVER learn ! They understand and see NOTHING
Given a chance, I would imagine that any country, group or company can be competent. India leads the world in many high tech areas, as a consequence of outsourcing. The systems may have issues, from the competency of the DGCA, irrelevance of the regulatory basis, caste system continuing to skew selection or training, belief in privileged status of the Captain, and many other issues, but at the end of the day, the Indians are resourceful. If they wanted to succeed, the corruption that is endemic can be overcome, and the bureaucratic incompetence can be made more irrelevant than it in fact is. Corruption and competency are hardly limited to the sub continent, it is a human condition. Humans are past masters of economy of effort, which a root of these malaises.

the pilot doesn't need a journalist to bash him - he does so perfectly well on his own accord.
The sad thing is that the pilot isn't just bashing himself up, or being bashed up by other parties, he is bashing up the aircraft, crew and passengers.

"Self-conceit may lead to Self-destruction"
Aesop (620BC - 560BC) The Frog and the Ox

I remain impressed by the tolerance that passengers have to the decay of aviation standards, which is being overseen by organisations with vested interests at best, and disinterest at worst. ICAO, IATA, DGCA, CAA, FAA, JAA/EASA, TC, CASA, DGAC et al,: frankly you should be ashamed. The system has all the hall marks of collapse of competency yet no party takes action to preserve the passengers right to life. The passengers take responsibility for the decay as well, all individuals are quite prepared to opt to use the cheapest, nastiest operation that exists, which metaphorically is probably an AN26 operating with falsified Guinean or Swazi registration out of Kinshasa or Ouagadougou with 30% overloads and no maintenance records. If they could get away with it, that would be the standard for MOL, and Joyce.

"The greatest of faults, I should say, is to be conscious of none"
Thomas Carlyle, (1795 - 1881)
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 03:29
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...equivalent to randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades... it won't hurt immediately, but it is a heightened risk and eventually bites back.
I agree with your sentiments, but randomly pulling pins out of hand grenades will indeed hurt immediately, unless you have enough spare hands to grip all the grenades to hold down the spring-loaded handles.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 03:41
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Lowly SLF here but is .3 tonnes legal for landing fuel at an alternate? Al Ain closer perhaps?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 03:59
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Anyone have the reported wind direction at the time of the incident?
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 07:32
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The reasons for the drop in flying standards is that the beanconters have got total control of the industry.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 08:47
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In response to fdr's excellent post:

This is today's aviation standard.

Some call it risk management, others simply corruption.

The huge distance of management and regulator to the daily happenings are deliberate.
They take advantage of the fact, that the implicated professionals, at least the few who would still be entitled to wear such a badge, are held ransom with their carrieer by a corrupt system of manufacturer, operator and regulator.
The customer is even more distant and still naively thinks that all the above have one common interest. They actually do have one, not as the customer would think safety, but pure greed.
Because of this distance and the holding hostage of the stick shakers, nothing will happen.
Even the media are of no help here, they are too ignorant of the happenings and anyway, the big selling scoops are bloodstained accidents and not shortcomings.

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Old 18th Nov 2011, 08:59
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i dont think all that happens is reported on the media

guys .. pls wait... with your curses..

i am not in AI express, but pls bear in mind there is an enquiry awaited and DGCA is not sleeping...

and europeans commenting about it racially need to hold their guns.. tell us what happened to AF447 from the DFDR and CVR

winds reported were cross 25 gusting 35 kts.. must have had gusty winds on approach.. DFDR will speak about it..

the 737-800W FCOM says 33kts is the demonstrated landing crosswinds.. not a limitation on the FCOM...

and I dont think he did an autoland... if he has... as per DFDR then he needs to face the reality...

media will write anything to sell headlines.. lets give the guys a chance.. to speak ... and be just...
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:06
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Whilst I can understand the need to restrict new Co-Pilots in their crosswind limitations for reasons of inexperience (or to get cheaper insurance ) I fail to see any reason to restrict the Aircraft Captain from using the full envelope of the aircraft as he/she see's fit unless there is a confidence issue?

Such a restriction surely places doubt on both the competency of the operator (training/standards regeime) and the Captain?

Landing in a 25kt crosswind gusting 35kts is not uncommen, as has been stated above, it might not be pretty and many, like myself, take a slightly 'firmer' landing over trying to 'grease it on' but even up to the 40kt crosswind landing limit (of my a/c type) it is not 'too' challenging.

I see it as a sad indictment of the decline of our industry that such restrictions are placed irrelevant of where the airline operates from. If there is no confidence from the management through the SOP's and adherance to the manufactures limitations then where can the operating crew gain their confidence from?

Quite sad really.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 09:09
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it was a smooth landing..

i think it was a very smooth landing... was he at high speeds... DFDR data will only speak the truth... did he correct the drift on time... was it wet... dry? anybody plzz with actual METAR..
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