Are UK pilots too eager to change frequency?

[soaringhigh650]

Last month I rented a plane to fly around the North of France.

I was quite surprised to hear loads of G-reg pilots saying:
"request frequency change to ... "

and the response was something like:

"Negative. You are still inside my area. I will hand you over." then maybe 5-10 minutes later: "G-AB contact <new facility> on <new frequency>."

What is going on here? Why does it seem like loads of G-reg pilots wanna move off and change frequency so soon?

[Mark 1]

The French provide an "information du vol" service that is more akin to the US flight-following, where handovers are more coordinated and aircraft are assigned a discrete squawk.

This is unusual to pilots who mainly fly in UK airspace who are probably anxious if they haven't got a transit clearance 5-10 minutes before they reach a zone boundary.

In the UK, you would normally dump a 'basic' FIS when approaching controlled airspace and not enter until you hear the words 'cleared to enter....' from the control unit of that airspace.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I find in the UK that I quite often need to request a frequency change reasonably early, otherwise I get handed over (or worse, given a freecall) just before I'm about to fly into somebody else's controlled airspace and am either desperately trying to get an airspace crossing clearance from a busy controller who didn't know about my existence until a few seconds earlier - or more likely am forced to change route and thus lose time, to stay out of CAS that I haven't permission (yet) to enter.

So, I can't say what you describe surprises me, it's UK pilots practicing what at-home would often be good practice on a long "near straight line" trip where they are asking permissions to cross CAS, rather than routing around the main bits.

G

[A and C]

I think that you are spot on with your reasoning, long distance VFR in Europe is treated more like IFR traffic in terms of communication with ATS units.

[Fuji Abound]

Id take it as a positive - thinking ahead, anticipating the next frequency a sign of a pilot not accustom to be looked after in the airways. ;)

[BackPacker]

I guess it all depends. If you're in busy airspace and ask to switch frequencies more than five minutes before you're going to leave the airspace, then you've clearly got your wires crossed. Or made a huge navigational error.

But if the airspace is relatively quiet and you're heading in a direction that's going to lead into another CAS shortly after leaving, asking for an "early" frequency change is quite allright as far as I'm concerned. It may not be ICAO but that word "early" would suggest you know what you're doing.

And remember that the controllers are usually well aware of the close proximity of the other CAS, and the desire to start your onwards clearance negotiation early.

[IO540]

It is a good idea to stay ahead of the controller, in case you fly out of his coverage area. The French ones can be a little sleepy at times :)

In IFR airspace this is not an issue because they watch you like a hawk, and they have some sort of computer system, driven by the Eurocontrol flight plan.

[Fuji Abound]

Bp - maybe. Take an east west solent crossing - you might be talking to farnborough but then you need to negotiate a transit with solent (southampton), who in turn directly abut bournemouth (on another frequency) who may then hand you over or suggest boscombe (depending whether they are open) or bournemouth lars so in a short space a little work going on. With experience its easy as with most things but every reason to see why a pilot might be thinking whose next and testing the market with the current controller to see if there thinking is on the same frequency.

I know having once been on the dege of bournemouth with no hand over (and none requested because i assumed it was coming). As it turned out even the controller had "forgotten" as i sailed on into bournemouth airspace. :\

[BackPacker]

you might be talking to farnborough

The thing that always annoys me is when someone is talking to a FIS of some sort, outside controlled airspace, and then "requests" to leave the frequency. What is the controller going to do? Refuse your request because he's got nobody else to talk to? You didn't have to speak to him in the first place so it's completely within your right to terminate the conversation.

Your message should be along the lines of "I'm going to leave now, thanks for the help, see you next time." No request in there. (Although you will have to put it in some sort of ICAO format though: "G-XX leaving the frequency, bye-bye")

(Edited to say that you are required to sign off with them, due to the alerting service that's implicit in a FIS. You cannot simply leave the frequency without telling them.)

[WorkingHard]

What does this thread say about ATC services in different lands and how VFR traffic is viewed by ATC?

[rasti121]

After reading this thread I remembered I was cleared couple of years ago by Munich Info into Class D airspace in Austria (around Linz I think) while VFR. You can imagine my surprise on that and I had to hear it again to make sure I understand (and don't bust in). In England the best I ever get is "Freecall" even at 7am with 1 other plane on the frequency.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Soaringhigh - sadly not. Maybe 50% of the time you *might* get a handover between controllers, but often they seem to be too busy, or the phone line isn't working, and you get given "Squawk 7000, freecall...."; not a problem with long times and distances, but where they're close together and times get short, a royal pain in the backside.

Hence we often dogleg outside CAS, adding time and cost - or at-least try and get our frequency changes in very early, because it can be really problematic getting quick and efficient zone transits.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Soaringhigh

Just to add to the previous post the way the UK works and Europe for that matter is that most of the airspace outside class A is unregulated - so you dont need to talk to anyone, and many pilots dont. For large parts of the UK and Europe there is often no one to talk to even if you want to. Dotted around are the regional airports which are usually surrounded by class D airspace the base of whcih extends to the bottom of class A airspace. Obviously you cant go there without a clearance. Many people dodge around - still not talking to anyone. Some ask and receive a clearance and some end up going straight through with consequences!

So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.

I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.

France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you. ;)

Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.

[172driver]

Just to add to the previous post the way the UK works and Europe for that matter is that most of the airspace outside class A is unregulated - so you dont need to talk to anyone, and many pilots dont. For large parts of the UK and Europe there is often no one to talk to even if you want to. Dotted around are the regional airports which are usually surrounded by class D airspace the base of whcih extends to the bottom of class A airspace. Obviously you cant go there without a clearance. Many people dodge around - still not talking to anyone. Some ask and receive a clearance and some end up going straight through with consequences!

So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.

I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.

France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.

Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.

Fuji, having crossed Europe several times VFR, this is absolutely NOT my experience. I always ask for - and get - a FIS which is broadly the same as flight following in the US.

Mind you, I'm talking about continental Europe, not the UK.

You are right - alas - in your last sentence, though.

[Genghis the Engineer]

In the UK a service is always available from London or Scottish. As useful as a chocolate teapot if you don't have a transponder, but so long as you are squawking, does provide that handholding feature.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Genghis - yes, I guess I meant a useful service (and it does imo have "some" uses) - alebit I think you will find there are parts of the UK you will struggle to get London Info - low level along the coeast to the west country comes to mind.

172driver - not sure who you would talk to for example north coast to Le Mans and further south for the equivalent of a flight following? The basis of my comments was with regard to "proper" flight following US style which is an excellent service. As the earlier post said it comes with full radar cover, hand offs all the way along the route with few differences between class A in Europe - that sort of service I dont see in most of France?

[AfricanEagle]

France <snip> where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.

I love flying VFR in France.

Also Germany in my limited experience is great: on a 5 hour plus trip from Tannheim to Aarhus ATC would call about once an hour to inform us when we were leaving one control zone and if we wanted we could call the next one on frequency xxx.

So very different from Italy where in certain areas on an 50 mile trip you have to change 5 different frequencies and make at leats 12 calls :ouch:

[172driver]

Fuji, on a NE-SW crossing of France: First I can't remember (been a couple of years), I think it was Strasbourg, then Lyon, then Marseille, then Barcelona (going into Girona). Got a squawk code and the occasional advisory. I was pretty much alone at FL085, so not much radio activity other than a request (granted) to cross some military airspace to avoid a squall line.

Similar experiences in Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal. The main difference to the US seems to be that there is a lot less traffic out there in Europe at the altitudes I usually fly at, i.e. FL 75-95.

[Fuji Abound]

172Driver - yep, I think you will find you will not get much of use from the French low level OCAS. I suppose for me a service becomes really useful if traffic is being called and there are some sort of hand overs.

[soaringhigh650]

I suppose for me a service becomes really useful if traffic is being called and there are some sort of hand overs.

That was what I got when I was in France at 3000 feet. Hence my original post on why G-reg pilots wanna move to the next frequency so fast.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I can't see the fuss!
Either one is in controlled airspace or not.
In controlled airspace, one talks to the controller, and waits to be handed off.
Outside controlled airspace, there normally is a FIS, which one may or may not talk to, who will answer certain questions with authority, and who may or may not give some information at their own discretion. Calling them or not, leaving them or not, are decisions for the PIC.

[172driver]

I suppose for me a service becomes really useful if traffic is being called and there are some sort of hand overs.

Agreed. But if there's no traffic to call ?

[ShyTorque]

So if you are talking to someone there shouldn't be a need to worry about who is next in-line or worry about busting anyone else's airspace.

Is such a procedure not the norm in the UK?

No, the UK's basic service in Class G (often the only service available at busy times) most definitely does not guarantee this. Effectively all you are getting is the altimeter setting and a listening watch.

If you bust airspace it is most definitely NOT down to the controller because you aren't being controlled.

[AfricanEagle]

Different, as usual, in Italy.

Sunday, took off from an uncontrolled airport, no flight plan, Golf airspace, destination Rome Urbe (LIRU). I only needed to contact Urbe upon reaching their CTR

Ten minutes after take off Rome Information was calling "I-RJ are you on frequency", obviously informed by afis departure of my destination....