Are UK pilots too eager to change frequency?
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Are UK pilots too eager to change frequency?
Last month I rented a plane to fly around the North of France.
I was quite surprised to hear loads of G-reg pilots saying:
"request frequency change to ... "
and the response was something like:
"Negative. You are still inside my area. I will hand you over." then maybe 5-10 minutes later: "G-AB contact <new facility> on <new frequency>."
What is going on here? Why does it seem like loads of G-reg pilots wanna move off and change frequency so soon?
I was quite surprised to hear loads of G-reg pilots saying:
"request frequency change to ... "
and the response was something like:
"Negative. You are still inside my area. I will hand you over." then maybe 5-10 minutes later: "G-AB contact <new facility> on <new frequency>."
What is going on here? Why does it seem like loads of G-reg pilots wanna move off and change frequency so soon?
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The French provide an "information du vol" service that is more akin to the US flight-following, where handovers are more coordinated and aircraft are assigned a discrete squawk.
This is unusual to pilots who mainly fly in UK airspace who are probably anxious if they haven't got a transit clearance 5-10 minutes before they reach a zone boundary.
In the UK, you would normally dump a 'basic' FIS when approaching controlled airspace and not enter until you hear the words 'cleared to enter....' from the control unit of that airspace.
This is unusual to pilots who mainly fly in UK airspace who are probably anxious if they haven't got a transit clearance 5-10 minutes before they reach a zone boundary.
In the UK, you would normally dump a 'basic' FIS when approaching controlled airspace and not enter until you hear the words 'cleared to enter....' from the control unit of that airspace.
I find in the UK that I quite often need to request a frequency change reasonably early, otherwise I get handed over (or worse, given a freecall) just before I'm about to fly into somebody else's controlled airspace and am either desperately trying to get an airspace crossing clearance from a busy controller who didn't know about my existence until a few seconds earlier - or more likely am forced to change route and thus lose time, to stay out of CAS that I haven't permission (yet) to enter.
So, I can't say what you describe surprises me, it's UK pilots practicing what at-home would often be good practice on a long "near straight line" trip where they are asking permissions to cross CAS, rather than routing around the main bits.
G
So, I can't say what you describe surprises me, it's UK pilots practicing what at-home would often be good practice on a long "near straight line" trip where they are asking permissions to cross CAS, rather than routing around the main bits.
G
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I guess it all depends. If you're in busy airspace and ask to switch frequencies more than five minutes before you're going to leave the airspace, then you've clearly got your wires crossed. Or made a huge navigational error.
But if the airspace is relatively quiet and you're heading in a direction that's going to lead into another CAS shortly after leaving, asking for an "early" frequency change is quite allright as far as I'm concerned. It may not be ICAO but that word "early" would suggest you know what you're doing.
And remember that the controllers are usually well aware of the close proximity of the other CAS, and the desire to start your onwards clearance negotiation early.
But if the airspace is relatively quiet and you're heading in a direction that's going to lead into another CAS shortly after leaving, asking for an "early" frequency change is quite allright as far as I'm concerned. It may not be ICAO but that word "early" would suggest you know what you're doing.
And remember that the controllers are usually well aware of the close proximity of the other CAS, and the desire to start your onwards clearance negotiation early.
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It is a good idea to stay ahead of the controller, in case you fly out of his coverage area. The French ones can be a little sleepy at times 
In IFR airspace this is not an issue because they watch you like a hawk, and they have some sort of computer system, driven by the Eurocontrol flight plan.
In IFR airspace this is not an issue because they watch you like a hawk, and they have some sort of computer system, driven by the Eurocontrol flight plan.
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Bp - maybe. Take an east west solent crossing - you might be talking to farnborough but then you need to negotiate a transit with solent (southampton), who in turn directly abut bournemouth (on another frequency) who may then hand you over or suggest boscombe (depending whether they are open) or bournemouth lars so in a short space a little work going on. With experience its easy as with most things but every reason to see why a pilot might be thinking whose next and testing the market with the current controller to see if there thinking is on the same frequency.
I know having once been on the dege of bournemouth with no hand over (and none requested because i assumed it was coming). As it turned out even the controller had "forgotten" as i sailed on into bournemouth airspace.
I know having once been on the dege of bournemouth with no hand over (and none requested because i assumed it was coming). As it turned out even the controller had "forgotten" as i sailed on into bournemouth airspace.
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you might be talking to farnborough
Your message should be along the lines of "I'm going to leave now, thanks for the help, see you next time." No request in there. (Although you will have to put it in some sort of ICAO format though: "G-XX leaving the frequency, bye-bye")
(Edited to say that you are required to sign off with them, due to the alerting service that's implicit in a FIS. You cannot simply leave the frequency without telling them.)
Last edited by BackPacker; 15th Nov 2011 at 10:53.
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After reading this thread I remembered I was cleared couple of years ago by Munich Info into Class D airspace in Austria (around Linz I think) while VFR. You can imagine my surprise on that and I had to hear it again to make sure I understand (and don't bust in). In England the best I ever get is "Freecall" even at 7am with 1 other plane on the frequency.
Soaringhigh - sadly not. Maybe 50% of the time you *might* get a handover between controllers, but often they seem to be too busy, or the phone line isn't working, and you get given "Squawk 7000, freecall...."; not a problem with long times and distances, but where they're close together and times get short, a royal pain in the backside.
Hence we often dogleg outside CAS, adding time and cost - or at-least try and get our frequency changes in very early, because it can be really problematic getting quick and efficient zone transits.
G
Hence we often dogleg outside CAS, adding time and cost - or at-least try and get our frequency changes in very early, because it can be really problematic getting quick and efficient zone transits.
G
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Soaringhigh
Just to add to the previous post the way the UK works and Europe for that matter is that most of the airspace outside class A is unregulated - so you dont need to talk to anyone, and many pilots dont. For large parts of the UK and Europe there is often no one to talk to even if you want to. Dotted around are the regional airports which are usually surrounded by class D airspace the base of whcih extends to the bottom of class A airspace. Obviously you cant go there without a clearance. Many people dodge around - still not talking to anyone. Some ask and receive a clearance and some end up going straight through with consequences!
So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.
I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.
France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.
Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.
Just to add to the previous post the way the UK works and Europe for that matter is that most of the airspace outside class A is unregulated - so you dont need to talk to anyone, and many pilots dont. For large parts of the UK and Europe there is often no one to talk to even if you want to. Dotted around are the regional airports which are usually surrounded by class D airspace the base of whcih extends to the bottom of class A airspace. Obviously you cant go there without a clearance. Many people dodge around - still not talking to anyone. Some ask and receive a clearance and some end up going straight through with consequences!
So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.
I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.
France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.
Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.
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Just to add to the previous post the way the UK works and Europe for that matter is that most of the airspace outside class A is unregulated - so you dont need to talk to anyone, and many pilots dont. For large parts of the UK and Europe there is often no one to talk to even if you want to. Dotted around are the regional airports which are usually surrounded by class D airspace the base of whcih extends to the bottom of class A airspace. Obviously you cant go there without a clearance. Many people dodge around - still not talking to anyone. Some ask and receive a clearance and some end up going straight through with consequences!
So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.
I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.
France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.
Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.
So forget about flight following and the seamless transition from one area controller to another - it doesnt exist. Most of the time the class D controllers dont want to speak to you unless you want a transit.
I am not suggesting it is a problem - it is just a very different concept. It works, but there is often very little hand holding so it relies on everyone knowing where they are and what they want to do.
France is perhaps the worst - where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.
Dont forget, times are hard this side of the Pond.
Mind you, I'm talking about continental Europe, not the UK.
You are right - alas - in your last sentence, though.
In the UK a service is always available from London or Scottish. As useful as a chocolate teapot if you don't have a transponder, but so long as you are squawking, does provide that handholding feature.
G
G
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Genghis - yes, I guess I meant a useful service (and it does imo have "some" uses) - alebit I think you will find there are parts of the UK you will struggle to get London Info - low level along the coeast to the west country comes to mind.
172driver - not sure who you would talk to for example north coast to Le Mans and further south for the equivalent of a flight following? The basis of my comments was with regard to "proper" flight following US style which is an excellent service. As the earlier post said it comes with full radar cover, hand offs all the way along the route with few differences between class A in Europe - that sort of service I dont see in most of France?
172driver - not sure who you would talk to for example north coast to Le Mans and further south for the equivalent of a flight following? The basis of my comments was with regard to "proper" flight following US style which is an excellent service. As the earlier post said it comes with full radar cover, hand offs all the way along the route with few differences between class A in Europe - that sort of service I dont see in most of France?
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France <snip> where you really can go for hundreds of miles without speaking to (or needing to speak) to anyone else, or for that matter having anyone that wants or is able to talk to you.
Also Germany in my limited experience is great: on a 5 hour plus trip from Tannheim to Aarhus ATC would call about once an hour to inform us when we were leaving one control zone and if we wanted we could call the next one on frequency xxx.
So very different from Italy where in certain areas on an 50 mile trip you have to change 5 different frequencies and make at leats 12 calls
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Fuji, on a NE-SW crossing of France: First I can't remember (been a couple of years), I think it was Strasbourg, then Lyon, then Marseille, then Barcelona (going into Girona). Got a squawk code and the occasional advisory. I was pretty much alone at FL085, so not much radio activity other than a request (granted) to cross some military airspace to avoid a squall line.
Similar experiences in Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal. The main difference to the US seems to be that there is a lot less traffic out there in Europe at the altitudes I usually fly at, i.e. FL 75-95.
Similar experiences in Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal. The main difference to the US seems to be that there is a lot less traffic out there in Europe at the altitudes I usually fly at, i.e. FL 75-95.
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172Driver - yep, I think you will find you will not get much of use from the French low level OCAS. I suppose for me a service becomes really useful if traffic is being called and there are some sort of hand overs.
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I suppose for me a service becomes really useful if traffic is being called and there are some sort of hand overs.