CPL/ME or MEP then CPL?

[GeeWhizz]

Very soon I have to decide whether to do the MEP rating then later the CPL, or whether to complete a CPL/MEP on the same course. Currency isn't going to be an issue, neither will cost.

I cannot make up my mind whether its more logical to get the MEP rating and enjoy some twin time getting used to wobbly props, retracts, and turbos pre-CPL, or whether the CPL/ME course would be more productive.

What does the forum recommend?

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

CPL(SE) then ME will, in my opinion be a cheaper, more fun, and more progressive learning route.

(a different) G

[IO540]

You could wait till the spring and pop down to Egnatia in Greece (LGKV). The general environment (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/jaa-ir/keramoti.jpg) is relatively pleasant :)

Do the whole thing in a DA42.

I am sure they will accept payment in Euros rather than Drachmas ;)

[Whopity]

Why not do the MEP and an IR and leave the CPL till last. A PPL wit an IR is more use than a CPL without one! As you have said money is not an issue, the more ME experience you get the better and experience gained on the IR is countable towards the total for a CPL.

[rmcb]

Bearing in mind the current position of the industry, in your position I would do CPLSE, SEIR and then upgrade to MEIR. You'll get plenty of complex experience on the CPL course.

I did the CPL, MEIR route and pay through the nose for an annual. While I appreciate money isn't an issue, why pay for an annual IRME reval. until you need it? It's a bit like renewing your Class I; reassuring but useless.

FTOs. will give you the 'no MEIR, no job' BS, but there ain't no jobs out there at the moment, just the instructors/marketing depts. keeping theirs.

[GeeWhizz]

Cheers guys. It's interesting to see other options that I'd not considered; the entire reason for posting.

[Whopity]

mcb

I know a number of people who have followed the SE route thinking it would be a cheap upgrade to ME but they all found it was far more expensive in the long run and involved lots of duplication like two initial test fees!

[rmcb]

whopity - your point is understood, acknowledged and agreed with; however, I maintain that I would go down the SEIR route and keep in practice with the money 'preserved' until such time as the market picks up.

Then I would be in the position to upgrade, knowing that the boxes I had ticked ATPL theory wise were still current, ie not worrying about that wee timebomb.

[mad_jock]

I did MEP IR then CPL in the twin then MCC

Personally I would say it better to get it out the way and then have it in the bank if an opertunity comes up.

Its pretty easy to get a revalidation but its not to get the course done if your on a time scale.

You can always renew your IR on the single if you so wish.

Those first jobs can be a bit of a right place and right time and if you don't have all the ticks in the boxes the start your type rating next week won't be possible if you have to fit in a twin IR upgrade course. Where as a two days refresher and then IR renewal is possible in 7 days.

As for the CPL/ME its alot to do in the time frame and I would doud't you wouldn't over run.

If you do the ME first then IR then CPL you end up with about 50 hours in the aircraft which is usually the starting point for private hire for insurance. Athough saying that that was my plan and i have never hired a twin yet and my MEP went to the wind 2 years ago outside 5 years valid.

The cpl test in the twin after the IR is way easier than in a single complex you just have to do a single engine missed approach with circle to land which is easy after the IR compared to all the fannying around doing PFL's etc in the Single CPL.

[IO540]

This is stating the obvious but it's worth asking oneself if ME is really needed.

When I was starting my PPL in 2000, everybody said to me "when will you be moving up to twins". It was the "in" thing back then. You got a PPL, then ME, and then you got bored and dropped out of flying :)

By the time I got going on reasonable trips, I lost any interest in ME as a potential purchase. I have just 1.5hrs in my logbook, done in a very posh C421C. Mr Thielert p*ssed on the "affordable ME" bonfire well and truly, and down with it went the avtur option which would be so great in southern Europe.

Today, avgas costs make a piston twin quite pricey to operate - unless it has two Rotaxes in which case you need a spare one anyway ;) The jury is still out (or yet again out) on the DA42TDi and it will be a few years before anybody can trust it for long trips. Singles do offer quite a lot, especially if you can stretch to a PT6 engined plane like the Jetprop :)

Not wishing to start another SE v. ME debate :)

[rmcb]

I agree with you, mad_jock - timing is all, and the more tools in your box the better!

However, the market is not indicating a need for the low hour MEIR jockey, and IMHO, unlikely to do so for a good few years.

An indicator to move up an engine will be when the large pool of mid houred newbies with MEIR, currently flying SE VFR taxi services start to be shown an interest by carriers. Then, I believe, would be the time to upgrade. In the meantime, you are IR current, RT current and maybe MCC positive. (Do you have to be ME to do MCC? I cannot remember...)

[englishal]

I did...

IR
Then ME
Then CPL SE
Then CPL ME

This was in FAA land though, but the hardest but most useful rating to have after the PPL is the IR, so why not do that first. Then when it comes to the CPL you should a few more hours experience under your belt which will make the whole lot easier by far.

[Whopity]

Do you have to be ME to do MCC? I cannot remember...Yes because its conducted on a Multi-engine Multi-crew aeroplane.

[BillieBob]

Do you have to be ME to do MCC?There is no explicit MCC course pre-entry requirement in JAR-FCL 1 for a MEIR or, indeed, a valid IR of any kind or even an MEP class rating. The UK CAA have, apparently on the basis of the statement that the course "is intended to provide MCC training....for PPL/IR or CPL/IR holders....", decided that a valid IR is a pre-requisite, although I'm not sure where that is published - it's cetainly not in LASORS. I would not be surprised if, by extension, they were to take the statement that "Wherever possible the MCC training should be combined with the initial type rating training for a multi-pilot aeroplane" to imply a requirement for a valid MEIR.

There are no pre-requisites whatever for entry to the MCC course in EASA Part-FCL, either explicit or implied. Of course this does not prevent a course provider introducing his own pre-requisites to filter out those he believes would not cope with the course.

[madlandrover]

the large pool of mid houred newbies with MEIR, currently flying SE VFR taxi services start to be shown an interest by carriers.

Which large pool would that be? In UK terms at least...

[rmcb]

I assume it's a large pool - I know three at Norwich binned by a small domestic/Europe market carrier forced into the smaller aircraft fleets. A step back denying others (me, grrrr...) that step forward.:suspect:

[mad_jock]

I don't know I have flown with 4 FO's in the last 6 months that were on their first type and job. And know of another two who are starting ratings very soon with less than 1000 hours.

None of them would have been in the position to be flying multi crew now if they hadn't got all the tickets when the jobs opened up.

SEP hours to be honest are worthless anyway these days.

[Big Pistons Forever]

SEP hours to be honest are worthless anyway these days.

How sad that flying hours where basic stick and rudder skills are honed without layers and layers of automation are now, by industry standards, indeed considered "useless"

[Genghis the Engineer]

How sad that flying hours where basic stick and rudder skills are honed without layers and layers of automation are now, by industry standards, indeed considered "useless"

It's been heading that way - prioritisation of CRM then management of automation and multi-engine.

Until you get AF447 where a jet has been lost, apparently, because of a lack of basic handling skill in three highly qualified pilots. Not to mention OO-TML where the aeroplane may have been smaller, and the pilots a bit lower experience, but the problems seem broadly the same.

I hope that may end the rot, and the realisation set in that whilst CRM and automation management are vital in the big jet cockpit, handling skill is nonetheless not optional either.

G

N.B. Why the heck is this thread running in Private Flying ?